17:39:48 RRSAgent has joined #ua 17:39:48 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-ua-irc 17:40:01 rrsagent, set logs public 17:47:54 title: UAWG telecon 17:48:02 Chair: Jim Allan 17:48:28 Agenda+ Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)? US summer time 17:48:45 Agenda+ WAI-ARIA last call review deadline mid April (take up after CSUN) 17:48:57 Agenda+ Poll - need F2F at November TPAC meeting in Santa Clara, CA 17:49:12 Agenda+ Review WAI-ALT attribute proposal (HTML5) - tentative 17:49:30 Agenda+ Survey Results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090223/ (UA definition and expansion) 17:49:59 Agenda+ Web security last call http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-wsc-ui-20090226/ March 19 deadline 17:51:14 KFord has joined #ua 17:51:56 Henny has joined #ua 17:52:57 sharper has joined #ua 17:52:58 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started 17:53:00 +[Microsoft] 17:53:17 zakim, microsoft is kford 17:53:17 +kford; got it 17:56:59 mhakkinen has joined #ua 17:58:30 +??P2 17:58:31 -??P2 17:58:31 +??P2 17:58:35 jeanne has joined #ua 17:58:38 +AllanJ 17:59:03 zakim, code? 17:59:03 the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jeanne 17:59:13 +Mark_Hakkinen 17:59:56 +??P8 17:59:59 zakim, ??P8 is sharper 17:59:59 +sharper; got it 18:00:28 JR has joined #ua 18:00:47 +Jeanne 18:00:53 zakim, code? 18:00:53 the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), JR 18:01:10 zakim, who is here? 18:01:10 On the phone I see kford, ??P2, AllanJ, Mark_Hakkinen, sharper, Jeanne 18:01:11 On IRC I see JR, jeanne, mhakkinen, sharper, Henny, KFord, RRSAgent, Zakim, AllanJ, trackbot 18:01:28 +[IPcaller] 18:01:45 zakim, [IPcaller] is really JR 18:01:45 +JR; got it 18:02:09 zakim,P2 is Henny 18:02:09 sorry, jeanne, I do not recognize a party named 'P2' 18:02:26 zakim, ??P2 18:02:26 I don't understand '??P2', jeanne 18:02:40 zakim, ??P2 is really Henny 18:02:40 +Henny; got it 18:02:43 agenda? 18:02:48 zakim, who is here? 18:02:59 On the phone I see kford, Henny, AllanJ, Mark_Hakkinen, sharper, Jeanne, JR 18:03:00 On IRC I see JR, jeanne, mhakkinen, sharper, Henny, KFord, RRSAgent, Zakim, AllanJ, trackbot 18:03:19 Scribe: JR 18:03:45 Regrets: Alan C., Judy B. 18:04:03 s/cna/can 18:05:10 JA: Discussing time change for next week 18:05:45 JS: Best to consult world clock 18:05:58 http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meeting.html 18:06:03 JA: Other thing is ARIA last call 18:06:12 JA: Not needed till mid-April 18:06:22 JA: We will take that up after CSUN 18:06:39 JS: THere is a whole separate ARIA User Agnet doc we should look at 18:06:52 JA: OK 18:07:06 zakim, who is making noise? 18:07:17 jeanne, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: AllanJ (32%) 18:07:26 JA: Next thing is a TPAC at beginning of Nov. 18:07:42 JA: They want to know which groups are interested 18:07:47 JA: In Santa Clara 18:07:58 JA: Before Thanksgiving 18:08:07 MH: I would try to make it 18:08:36 HS: I need to check 18:08:57 SH: Also need to check 18:09:09 JR: Would help if AUWG was also meeting 18:09:16 KF: It's possible 18:09:59 JS: First Q, would everyone like to meet this year? 18:10:38 JS: Context...so many groups reporting travel restrictions that it may be cancelled or morphed into something else 18:10:57 JA: Should we meet before Dec? 18:11:13 =1 18:11:14 KF: Yes...they are very productive 18:11:18 JR:+1 18:11:22 JA: +1 18:11:25 HS:+1 18:11:35 JA: OK so when, where? 18:11:48 JA: TPAC is one option...other ideas? 18:12:01 KF: I could explore hosting it in Redmond 18:12:51 JS: My pers opinion is if we go to W. coast, combining with TPAC might work 18:13:08 JS: But if TPAC cancelled would like to pursue Redmond 18:13:20 JS: We could possibly host on East coast 18:13:31 SH: Better for me on East coast of US 18:13:56 SH: Better to coord so that we are at best spot in our release cycle 18:14:03 JA: Agree 18:14:21 JA: But i think whenever we held it we'd jump in on lots of work 18:14:44 KF: East coast fine with me too' 18:16:15 JA: The dates would be Nov 2-6 18:16:43 JA: XHTML2, WCAG, EO, ERT, etc. 18:16:51 JA: Are meeting. 18:16:54 URI? 18:17:41 JA: Mar. 18 is due date to sign up 18:18:10 JA: I will put on agenda for next week 18:18:34 action: JA to make a survey item whether or not planning to attend TPAC in Nov 18:18:35 Created ACTION-156 - Make a survey item whether or not planning to attend TPAC in Nov [on Jim Allan - due 2009-03-12]. 18:19:31 Topic: Review WAI-ALT attribute proposal (HTML5) 18:20:43 JR: History, HTML5 @alt, WAI review, send proposal to HTML5 18:21:23 ...terse label is critical - @alt or @arialabledby 18:22:16 ...still debating: alt="" (backward compatibility), or @ariarole="presentation" 18:22:36 JA: There's be 15-20 WAI people slogging through this 18:22:42 q+ 18:23:35 KF: this is scary, could get really confused 18:23:43 ack Kford 18:25:01 KF: Kind of scary that simple alt might become a lot more complicated 18:25:26 MH: Looking at HTML5, worried about guidnace given on alt 18:25:54 JA: There is history to this.... 18:26:25 JA: The group is trying to come up with a WAI approved approach 18:26:39 JA: HTML5's use case has been flickr 18:27:09 JA: So discussions have gone on for thousands of emails 18:27:38 JA: So the WAI group has been meeting for 6 weeks now...to try to come up with something better 18:28:23 KF: From user agent perspective...support whatever not that hard 18:28:59 KF: As a group, our first priority to talk from UA perspective... 18:32:15 JA: Basic browsers really don't do fallback....it's ATs do that 18:36:54 Topic: Survey Results 18:37:03 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090223/ 18:37:40 Topic: Definition - User Agent 18:37:47 JA: 4 accepts, 1 change 18:38:11 JA: I proposed A user agent is any software that facilitates end user interaction with Web content it retrieves and renders. 18:39:26 I say go with accept the current. 18:39:35 JA: So we'll go with current proposed wording 18:40:06 action: JS to update the definition of User AGent based on the survey of http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090223/results 18:40:06 Created ACTION-157 - Update the definition of User AGent based on the survey of http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090223/results [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-03-12]. 18:43:42 JR: discussion of UA definition expansion. Simple email program would not be an UA 18:44:22 KF: Is Google docs a web based user agent? 18:44:38 JR: Prob....def an authoring tool 18:44:47 KF: Or a spreadhseet program 18:45:05 JA: Gmail would be a user agent 18:45:54 JR: portal that delivers the content, is it the base browser, or is there another interface inside the UA interface 18:46:23 ...map example, the BASE UA knows nothing about maps, panning and zooming 18:46:30 KF: So are all applications that run inside the web browser user agents 18:47:03 ...only googlemaps provides the rich interface to the maps 18:47:38 KF: Web-wise applicatios not doing anything either 18:48:21 KF: IMagine web app (super duper web browser) - 3d web browser 18:48:28 KF: I would think of that as a UA 18:49:24 SH: So I've sure I've seen a google shell to facilitate Google docs etc 18:49:46 JR: Google chrome? 18:50:04 JA: Then there's Google Gears 18:50:30 q+ to say what about User Agent that isn't covered by WCAG, that applies to an app. 18:50:50 MH: Gears still uses the UA for presentation 18:50:52 ack JS 18:51:21 http://labs.mozilla.com/2009/01/design-review-and-windowless-browsing/ 18:51:32 JS: What I'm thinking is what aspects of user agents are not covered by WCAG...to see where we really need to provide guidance 18:51:42 JS: I think about multimedia players 18:51:59 JS: We can go into more depth 18:52:02 q+ 18:52:04 JS: And Flash 18:52:15 ack jeanne 18:52:15 jeanne, you wanted to say what about User Agent that isn't covered by WCAG, that applies to an app. 18:52:32 MH: itunes? 18:52:36 ack sharper 18:52:58 SH: I was just thinking...plugin does own rendering...not pushed to user agent 18:53:41 JR: what about example of media player 18:54:18 SH: the embedded player has its own UI separate from UA-UI 18:54:24 -Henny 18:54:49 JR: flash movie, has its own controls 18:56:12 ...plugins are user agents 18:59:06 JR, KF, JA, SH: Discussing what is a user agent 18:59:27 where is the line. 18:59:36 KF: baseball game? 18:59:55 JR: data transport vs webcontent 19:00:32 KF: what if you have a flash app that lets you take a test 19:01:03 +??P1 19:01:14 Henny has joined #ua 19:01:18 JR: Comes down 19:01:24 JA: Like a plugin 19:01:31 JR: definition, is changing content types. base-ua know nothing about rdf, and a plugin renders the rdf then a UA 19:01:33 JR: A web-based plugin 19:01:48 SH: If it just did a conversion then its not a user agent 19:02:06 SH: so if the rdf plugin does not take any input and send it back to the UA then not a UA 19:04:20 JA: two thins i'm hearing...1. A web app provides a unique UI for user interaction that base UA does not know about 19:04:29 q+ 19:04:40 JA: ex. flash movie players that provides it's own pause, play etc 19:05:23 JA: Other part (2) web apps that communicate back to user agent to do rendering 19:05:46 SH: Let's step back...I'm not sure I like User agents defn 19:06:08 SH: Are those "ands" or "ors"? 19:06:29 SH: Between retreive, render, interaction 19:07:25 JS: The criticism at ATIA was that we need to be really clear where the dividing line between WCAG and UAAG. 19:08:05 JA: That's good in concept, but there's maybe a 25% overlap between WCAG and UAAG 19:08:26 JA: We've gone over it several times. 19:08:57 JA: So causes a fuzzy gray area 19:09:26 JA: My concern about Web apps as uAs is AJAX stuff 19:10:43 JR: ability of AU to get outside of their own data, user takes their settings with them as they go to other sites 19:11:43 ...Baseball game, can't take your data to a different game 19:11:49 SH: Still re: User Agent...I think would be clearer...A user agent is any software that facilitates end user interaction with Web content including presentation. 19:12:19 SH: who does the retrieval 19:12:42 JR: it is your UA, you use it to retrieve stuff to interact with it. 19:13:01 JR: It is "YOUR" "AGENT" 19:13:16 KF: I like what simon says 19:13:48 JA: So if we leave retrieve out 19:14:12 JA: Is Flickr? 19:14:18 JA: Is Google docs? 19:14:36 KF: Google docs doesn't facilitate interaction with web content 19:14:50 JA: OK...here at school we have a learning management system 19:15:11 JA: It's an application that lives inside a browser 19:16:00 SH: As far as I'm concerned the browser is the part that is being used for the end user interaction...if it's just HTML 19:16:51 JR: agree, how does your definition cut off the application jim described 19:17:42 JA: The part I left out ... I'm in Web 2.0 application with iuts own interface....the user agent doesn't know anything about the controls 19:18:35 JR: Anything in AJAX is a user agent? 19:19:37 SH: No the javascript is interpreted by the browser 19:19:41 q+ 19:20:31 JR: test I use for UA determination. Zoom feature. where does it make sense. 19:21:17 ...on most webpages, the UA has a zoom feature. If I have a flash with a zoom feature. 19:21:23 SH: I think that test is ok 19:21:49 SH: If plugin devolves the zoomin to the browser then its not a UA 19:22:23 SH: JR's example was 2 user agents...the base browser and the application that can zoom maps 19:23:15 JR: So UAAG is going to be requiring zooms, etc. we are wanting to target the right apps 19:23:34 SH: So if I'm handling the user input its me that is the web app 19:25:09 JA:... 19:25:46 KH: Part of me still says WCAG should not be allowing things totally opaque to user agents 19:26:34 KH: Diff tests....my test...can I independently go to wherever I want - get whatever content I want...so not walled garden 19:27:43 JR: not so clear cut, may capture some some stuff, but not others. 19:28:48 SH: Test....if input is captured and processed and output is generated without reference to another ua 19:29:00 ...application would be making claim as a user agent. Our web-application-UA will use these facilities from the base-UA and provide all of these other things. 19:29:10 JR: Actually we draw the big circle around the web app that's a UA + the base UA 19:29:16 KH... 19:29:49 SH: In Google example...what about partial conformance....but everything else develoves to browser 19:31:24 JR: basebrowser uses the OS platform to handle lots of functions. 19:32:13 KF: Example of Facebook and all those little apps 19:32:56 KF: Next steps? 19:33:12 JA: In our status of the document...we do ask about Web apps as user agents. 19:33:23 JA: I don't think we have enough info 19:33:36 KF: Having the context of this discussion would help 19:34:18 SH: There could be 2 steps...(1) do they have the ability to be a user ...can you eat input and generateoutput indepenednently...(2) do you actually do that or do you devolve 19:35:05 JA: Can we take this to the list 19:35:47 Action JA: Look at WCAG 2.0 to compare with UAAG2 re: overlaps 19:35:47 Created ACTION-158 - Look at WCAG 2.0 to compare with UAAG2 re: overlaps [on Jim Allan - due 2009-03-12]. 19:36:03 JA: On line we need use cases 19:36:35 JA: Makes more sense to have some target apps to pound on 19:36:58 -kford 19:36:59 -??P1 19:37:00 -Mark_Hakkinen 19:37:02 -sharper 19:37:03 -JR 19:38:00 rrsagent, who was here 19:38:00 I'm logging. I don't understand 'who was here', AllanJ. Try /msg RRSAgent help 19:43:51 -AllanJ 19:43:53 -Jeanne 19:43:53 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended 19:43:54 Attendees were kford, AllanJ, Mark_Hakkinen, sharper, Jeanne, JR, Henny 19:44:12 rrsagent, make minutes 19:44:12 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-ua-minutes.html AllanJ 19:48:33 Henny has left #ua 19:58:51 mhakkinen has left #ua 20:19:21 AllanJ has left #ua 21:02:23 rrsagent, bye 21:02:23 I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-ua-actions.rdf : 21:02:23 ACTION: JA to make a survey item whether or not planning to attend TPAC in Nov [1] 21:02:23 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-ua-irc#T18-18-34 21:02:23 ACTION: JS to update the definition of User AGent based on the survey of http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090223/results [2] 21:02:23 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-ua-irc#T18-40-06 21:02:23 ACTION: JA to Look at WCAG 2.0 to compare with UAAG2 re: overlaps [3] 21:02:23 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-ua-irc#T19-35-47