IRC log of ua on 2009-03-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:39:48 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
17:39:48 [RRSAgent]
logging to
17:40:01 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, set logs public
17:47:54 [AllanJ]
title: UAWG telecon
17:48:02 [AllanJ]
Chair: Jim Allan
17:48:28 [AllanJ]
Agenda+ Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)? US summer time
17:48:45 [AllanJ]
Agenda+ WAI-ARIA last call review deadline mid April (take up after CSUN)
17:48:57 [AllanJ]
Agenda+ Poll - need F2F at November TPAC meeting in Santa Clara, CA
17:49:12 [AllanJ]
Agenda+ Review WAI-ALT attribute proposal (HTML5) - tentative
17:49:30 [AllanJ]
Agenda+ Survey Results (UA definition and expansion)
17:49:59 [AllanJ]
Agenda+ Web security last call March 19 deadline
17:51:14 [KFord]
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17:51:56 [Henny]
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17:52:58 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
17:53:00 [Zakim]
17:53:17 [KFord]
zakim, microsoft is kford
17:53:17 [Zakim]
+kford; got it
17:56:59 [mhakkinen]
mhakkinen has joined #ua
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17:58:31 [Zakim]
17:58:31 [Zakim]
17:58:35 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
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17:59:03 [jeanne]
zakim, code?
17:59:03 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), jeanne
17:59:13 [Zakim]
17:59:56 [Zakim]
17:59:59 [sharper]
zakim, ??P8 is sharper
17:59:59 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
18:00:28 [JR]
JR has joined #ua
18:00:47 [Zakim]
18:00:53 [JR]
zakim, code?
18:00:53 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), JR
18:01:10 [jeanne]
zakim, who is here?
18:01:10 [Zakim]
On the phone I see kford, ??P2, AllanJ, Mark_Hakkinen, sharper, Jeanne
18:01:11 [Zakim]
On IRC I see JR, jeanne, mhakkinen, sharper, Henny, KFord, RRSAgent, Zakim, AllanJ, trackbot
18:01:28 [Zakim]
18:01:45 [JR]
zakim, [IPcaller] is really JR
18:01:45 [Zakim]
+JR; got it
18:02:09 [jeanne]
zakim,P2 is Henny
18:02:09 [Zakim]
sorry, jeanne, I do not recognize a party named 'P2'
18:02:26 [jeanne]
zakim, ??P2
18:02:26 [Zakim]
I don't understand '??P2', jeanne
18:02:40 [jeanne]
zakim, ??P2 is really Henny
18:02:40 [Zakim]
+Henny; got it
18:02:43 [AllanJ]
18:02:48 [jeanne]
zakim, who is here?
18:02:59 [Zakim]
On the phone I see kford, Henny, AllanJ, Mark_Hakkinen, sharper, Jeanne, JR
18:03:00 [Zakim]
On IRC I see JR, jeanne, mhakkinen, sharper, Henny, KFord, RRSAgent, Zakim, AllanJ, trackbot
18:03:19 [JR]
Scribe: JR
18:03:45 [JR]
Regrets: Alan C., Judy B.
18:04:03 [KFord]
18:05:10 [JR]
JA: Discussing time change for next week
18:05:45 [JR]
JS: Best to consult world clock
18:05:58 [jeanne]
18:06:03 [JR]
JA: Other thing is ARIA last call
18:06:12 [JR]
JA: Not needed till mid-April
18:06:22 [JR]
JA: We will take that up after CSUN
18:06:39 [JR]
JS: THere is a whole separate ARIA User Agnet doc we should look at
18:06:52 [JR]
18:07:06 [jeanne]
zakim, who is making noise?
18:07:17 [Zakim]
jeanne, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: AllanJ (32%)
18:07:26 [JR]
JA: Next thing is a TPAC at beginning of Nov.
18:07:42 [JR]
JA: They want to know which groups are interested
18:07:47 [JR]
JA: In Santa Clara
18:07:58 [JR]
JA: Before Thanksgiving
18:08:07 [JR]
MH: I would try to make it
18:08:36 [JR]
HS: I need to check
18:08:57 [JR]
SH: Also need to check
18:09:09 [JR]
JR: Would help if AUWG was also meeting
18:09:16 [JR]
KF: It's possible
18:09:59 [JR]
JS: First Q, would everyone like to meet this year?
18:10:38 [JR]
JS: many groups reporting travel restrictions that it may be cancelled or morphed into something else
18:10:57 [JR]
JA: Should we meet before Dec?
18:11:13 [AllanJ]
18:11:14 [JR]
KF: Yes...they are very productive
18:11:18 [JR]
18:11:22 [JR]
JA: +1
18:11:25 [JR]
18:11:35 [JR]
JA: OK so when, where?
18:11:48 [JR]
JA: TPAC is one option...other ideas?
18:12:01 [JR]
KF: I could explore hosting it in Redmond
18:12:51 [JR]
JS: My pers opinion is if we go to W. coast, combining with TPAC might work
18:13:08 [JR]
JS: But if TPAC cancelled would like to pursue Redmond
18:13:20 [JR]
JS: We could possibly host on East coast
18:13:31 [JR]
SH: Better for me on East coast of US
18:13:56 [JR]
SH: Better to coord so that we are at best spot in our release cycle
18:14:03 [JR]
JA: Agree
18:14:21 [JR]
JA: But i think whenever we held it we'd jump in on lots of work
18:14:44 [JR]
KF: East coast fine with me too'
18:16:15 [JR]
JA: The dates would be Nov 2-6
18:16:43 [JR]
18:16:51 [JR]
JA: Are meeting.
18:16:54 [JR]
18:17:41 [JR]
JA: Mar. 18 is due date to sign up
18:18:10 [JR]
JA: I will put on agenda for next week
18:18:34 [jeanne]
action: JA to make a survey item whether or not planning to attend TPAC in Nov
18:18:35 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-156 - Make a survey item whether or not planning to attend TPAC in Nov [on Jim Allan - due 2009-03-12].
18:19:31 [JR]
Topic: Review WAI-ALT attribute proposal (HTML5)
18:20:43 [AllanJ]
JR: History, HTML5 @alt, WAI review, send proposal to HTML5
18:21:23 [AllanJ]
...terse label is critical - @alt or @arialabledby
18:22:16 [AllanJ]
...still debating: alt="" (backward compatibility), or @ariarole="presentation"
18:22:36 [JR]
JA: There's be 15-20 WAI people slogging through this
18:22:42 [KFord]
18:23:35 [AllanJ]
KF: this is scary, could get really confused
18:23:43 [AllanJ]
ack Kford
18:25:01 [JR]
KF: Kind of scary that simple alt might become a lot more complicated
18:25:26 [JR]
MH: Looking at HTML5, worried about guidnace given on alt
18:25:54 [JR]
JA: There is history to this....
18:26:25 [JR]
JA: The group is trying to come up with a WAI approved approach
18:26:39 [JR]
JA: HTML5's use case has been flickr
18:27:09 [JR]
JA: So discussions have gone on for thousands of emails
18:27:38 [JR]
JA: So the WAI group has been meeting for 6 weeks try to come up with something better
18:28:23 [JR]
KF: From user agent whatever not that hard
18:28:59 [JR]
KF: As a group, our first priority to talk from UA perspective...
18:32:15 [JR]
JA: Basic browsers really don't do's ATs do that
18:36:54 [JR]
Topic: Survey Results
18:37:03 [JR]
18:37:40 [JR]
Topic: Definition - User Agent
18:37:47 [JR]
JA: 4 accepts, 1 change
18:38:11 [JR]
JA: I proposed A user agent is any software that facilitates end user interaction with Web content it retrieves and renders.
18:39:26 [KFord]
I say go with accept the current.
18:39:35 [JR]
JA: So we'll go with current proposed wording
18:40:06 [jeanne]
action: JS to update the definition of User AGent based on the survey of
18:40:06 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-157 - Update the definition of User AGent based on the survey of [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-03-12].
18:43:42 [AllanJ]
JR: discussion of UA definition expansion. Simple email program would not be an UA
18:44:22 [JR]
KF: Is Google docs a web based user agent?
18:44:38 [JR]
JR: Prob....def an authoring tool
18:44:47 [JR]
KF: Or a spreadhseet program
18:45:05 [JR]
JA: Gmail would be a user agent
18:45:54 [AllanJ]
JR: portal that delivers the content, is it the base browser, or is there another interface inside the UA interface
18:46:23 [AllanJ] example, the BASE UA knows nothing about maps, panning and zooming
18:46:30 [JR]
KF: So are all applications that run inside the web browser user agents
18:47:03 [AllanJ]
...only googlemaps provides the rich interface to the maps
18:47:38 [JR]
KF: Web-wise applicatios not doing anything either
18:48:21 [JR]
KF: IMagine web app (super duper web browser) - 3d web browser
18:48:28 [JR]
KF: I would think of that as a UA
18:49:24 [JR]
SH: So I've sure I've seen a google shell to facilitate Google docs etc
18:49:46 [JR]
JR: Google chrome?
18:50:04 [JR]
JA: Then there's Google Gears
18:50:30 [jeanne]
q+ to say what about User Agent that isn't covered by WCAG, that applies to an app.
18:50:50 [JR]
MH: Gears still uses the UA for presentation
18:50:52 [JR]
ack JS
18:51:21 [Henny]
18:51:32 [JR]
JS: What I'm thinking is what aspects of user agents are not covered by see where we really need to provide guidance
18:51:42 [JR]
JS: I think about multimedia players
18:51:59 [JR]
JS: We can go into more depth
18:52:02 [sharper]
18:52:04 [JR]
JS: And Flash
18:52:15 [JR]
ack jeanne
18:52:15 [Zakim]
jeanne, you wanted to say what about User Agent that isn't covered by WCAG, that applies to an app.
18:52:32 [JR]
MH: itunes?
18:52:36 [JR]
ack sharper
18:52:58 [JR]
SH: I was just thinking...plugin does own rendering...not pushed to user agent
18:53:41 [AllanJ]
JR: what about example of media player
18:54:18 [AllanJ]
SH: the embedded player has its own UI separate from UA-UI
18:54:24 [Zakim]
18:54:49 [AllanJ]
JR: flash movie, has its own controls
18:56:12 [AllanJ]
...plugins are user agents
18:59:06 [JR]
JR, KF, JA, SH: Discussing what is a user agent
18:59:27 [AllanJ]
where is the line.
18:59:36 [AllanJ]
KF: baseball game?
18:59:55 [AllanJ]
JR: data transport vs webcontent
19:00:32 [AllanJ]
KF: what if you have a flash app that lets you take a test
19:01:03 [Zakim]
19:01:14 [Henny]
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19:01:18 [JR]
JR: Comes down
19:01:24 [JR]
JA: Like a plugin
19:01:31 [AllanJ]
JR: definition, is changing content types. base-ua know nothing about rdf, and a plugin renders the rdf then a UA
19:01:33 [JR]
JR: A web-based plugin
19:01:48 [JR]
SH: If it just did a conversion then its not a user agent
19:02:06 [AllanJ]
SH: so if the rdf plugin does not take any input and send it back to the UA then not a UA
19:04:20 [JR]
JA: two thins i'm hearing...1. A web app provides a unique UI for user interaction that base UA does not know about
19:04:29 [sharper]
19:04:40 [JR]
JA: ex. flash movie players that provides it's own pause, play etc
19:05:23 [JR]
JA: Other part (2) web apps that communicate back to user agent to do rendering
19:05:46 [JR]
SH: Let's step back...I'm not sure I like User agents defn
19:06:08 [JR]
SH: Are those "ands" or "ors"?
19:06:29 [JR]
SH: Between retreive, render, interaction
19:07:25 [JR]
JS: The criticism at ATIA was that we need to be really clear where the dividing line between WCAG and UAAG.
19:08:05 [JR]
JA: That's good in concept, but there's maybe a 25% overlap between WCAG and UAAG
19:08:26 [JR]
JA: We've gone over it several times.
19:08:57 [JR]
JA: So causes a fuzzy gray area
19:09:26 [JR]
JA: My concern about Web apps as uAs is AJAX stuff
19:10:43 [AllanJ]
JR: ability of AU to get outside of their own data, user takes their settings with them as they go to other sites
19:11:43 [AllanJ]
...Baseball game, can't take your data to a different game
19:11:49 [JR]
SH: Still re: User Agent...I think would be clearer...A user agent is any software that facilitates end user interaction with Web content including presentation.
19:12:19 [AllanJ]
SH: who does the retrieval
19:12:42 [AllanJ]
JR: it is your UA, you use it to retrieve stuff to interact with it.
19:13:01 [JR]
JR: It is "YOUR" "AGENT"
19:13:16 [JR]
KF: I like what simon says
19:13:48 [JR]
JA: So if we leave retrieve out
19:14:12 [JR]
JA: Is Flickr?
19:14:18 [JR]
JA: Is Google docs?
19:14:36 [JR]
KF: Google docs doesn't facilitate interaction with web content
19:14:50 [JR]
JA: at school we have a learning management system
19:15:11 [JR]
JA: It's an application that lives inside a browser
19:16:00 [JR]
SH: As far as I'm concerned the browser is the part that is being used for the end user interaction...if it's just HTML
19:16:51 [AllanJ]
JR: agree, how does your definition cut off the application jim described
19:17:42 [JR]
JA: The part I left out ... I'm in Web 2.0 application with iuts own interface....the user agent doesn't know anything about the controls
19:18:35 [JR]
JR: Anything in AJAX is a user agent?
19:19:37 [JR]
SH: No the javascript is interpreted by the browser
19:19:41 [JR]
19:20:31 [AllanJ]
JR: test I use for UA determination. Zoom feature. where does it make sense.
19:21:17 [AllanJ]
...on most webpages, the UA has a zoom feature. If I have a flash with a zoom feature.
19:21:23 [JR]
SH: I think that test is ok
19:21:49 [JR]
SH: If plugin devolves the zoomin to the browser then its not a UA
19:22:23 [JR]
SH: JR's example was 2 user agents...the base browser and the application that can zoom maps
19:23:15 [JR]
JR: So UAAG is going to be requiring zooms, etc. we are wanting to target the right apps
19:23:34 [JR]
SH: So if I'm handling the user input its me that is the web app
19:25:09 [JR]
19:25:46 [JR]
KH: Part of me still says WCAG should not be allowing things totally opaque to user agents
19:26:34 [JR]
KH: Diff test...can I independently go to wherever I want - get whatever content I not walled garden
19:27:43 [AllanJ]
JR: not so clear cut, may capture some some stuff, but not others.
19:28:48 [JR]
SH: Test....if input is captured and processed and output is generated without reference to another ua
19:29:00 [AllanJ]
...application would be making claim as a user agent. Our web-application-UA will use these facilities from the base-UA and provide all of these other things.
19:29:10 [JR]
JR: Actually we draw the big circle around the web app that's a UA + the base UA
19:29:16 [JR]
19:29:49 [JR]
SH: In Google example...what about partial conformance....but everything else develoves to browser
19:31:24 [AllanJ]
JR: basebrowser uses the OS platform to handle lots of functions.
19:32:13 [JR]
KF: Example of Facebook and all those little apps
19:32:56 [JR]
KF: Next steps?
19:33:12 [JR]
JA: In our status of the document...we do ask about Web apps as user agents.
19:33:23 [JR]
JA: I don't think we have enough info
19:33:36 [JR]
KF: Having the context of this discussion would help
19:34:18 [JR]
SH: There could be 2 steps...(1) do they have the ability to be a user ...can you eat input and generateoutput indepenednently...(2) do you actually do that or do you devolve
19:35:05 [JR]
JA: Can we take this to the list
19:35:47 [JR]
Action JA: Look at WCAG 2.0 to compare with UAAG2 re: overlaps
19:35:47 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-158 - Look at WCAG 2.0 to compare with UAAG2 re: overlaps [on Jim Allan - due 2009-03-12].
19:36:03 [JR]
JA: On line we need use cases
19:36:35 [JR]
JA: Makes more sense to have some target apps to pound on
19:36:58 [Zakim]
19:36:59 [Zakim]
19:37:00 [Zakim]
19:37:02 [Zakim]
19:37:03 [Zakim]
19:38:00 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, who was here
19:38:00 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'who was here', AllanJ. Try /msg RRSAgent help
19:43:51 [Zakim]
19:43:53 [Zakim]
19:43:53 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
19:43:54 [Zakim]
Attendees were kford, AllanJ, Mark_Hakkinen, sharper, Jeanne, JR, Henny
19:44:12 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:44:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate AllanJ
19:48:33 [Henny]
Henny has left #ua
19:58:51 [mhakkinen]
mhakkinen has left #ua
20:19:21 [AllanJ]
AllanJ has left #ua
21:02:23 [jeanne]
rrsagent, bye
21:02:23 [RRSAgent]
I see 3 open action items saved in :
21:02:23 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JA to make a survey item whether or not planning to attend TPAC in Nov [1]
21:02:23 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
21:02:23 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JS to update the definition of User AGent based on the survey of [2]
21:02:23 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
21:02:23 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JA to Look at WCAG 2.0 to compare with UAAG2 re: overlaps [3]
21:02:23 [RRSAgent]
recorded in