19:30:36 RRSAgent has joined #svg 19:30:37 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-svg-irc 19:30:38 RRSAgent, make logs public 19:30:40 Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG 19:30:40 ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG()2:30PM scheduled to start now 19:30:41 Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference 19:30:41 Date: 05 March 2009 19:30:52 GA_SVGWG()2:30PM has now started 19:30:53 +Shepazu 19:31:38 +??P2 19:31:55 Zakim, ??P2 is me 19:31:55 +ed_; got it 19:34:40 gah 19:34:52 skype credit takes 15 minutes to go through 19:37:06 +??P11 19:37:11 Zakim, ??P11 is me 19:37:11 +heycam; got it 19:38:08 +??P1 19:39:16 Zakim: I'm me 19:41:22 Zakim, pick a victim 19:41:22 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Shepazu 19:41:50 Chair: Erik 19:41:52 Scribe: Cameron 19:41:54 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/0195.html 19:41:55 ScribeNick: heycam 19:41:56 Regrets: Chris 19:42:18 Topic: Telcon time change 19:42:43 ED: has everyone updated their entries? 19:43:15 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-svg-wg/2009JanMar/0002.html 19:44:16 +??P3 19:44:28 Zakim, ??P3 is me 19:44:28 +anthony; got it 19:53:03 http://mcc.id.au/2007/03/telcon/?op=impossible 20:15:54 [much discussion, we'll take it to the list] 20:16:22 Topic: SVG in text/html 20:16:30 ED: have the HTML WG had their telcon this week? 20:16:36 CM: no it's been cancelled this week 20:17:30 ED: there are a bunch of comments on the wiki page 20:17:39 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG_in_text-html_2009 20:19:25 http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20090304#l-310 20:20:10 http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20090304#l-464 20:21:57 ED: we could go over each of the XXX comments in the wiki page 20:22:22 ED: the first one, should we say that this is "some feedback" on their proposal? 20:24:44 JW: personally, i'm not entirely comfortable with the whole SVG in text/html thing yet 20:25:05 ... but i'm willing to go along with the proposal, and look at how it would work, and work on problems we find with it 20:26:36 -??P1 20:26:55 Zakim, who is on the call? 20:26:55 On the phone I see Shepazu, ed_, heycam, anthony 20:27:11 +??P0 20:27:42 jwatt_ has joined #svg 20:29:13 JW: next, about parse errors 20:29:26 ... someone was saying in some email that "parse error" means that the user agent can just abort parsing 20:29:36 ... wondering if we should use the term "non-conforming" 20:29:50 ED: parse error is the term used for "abort or follow the steps in the spec" 20:29:54 ... it's mostly meant for validators, i guess 20:30:38 CM: i think it is that browser would continue, but other tools could abort if they wanted 20:31:09 JW: do we know what happens when we get non-, it gets put in the HTML namespace 20:34:53 http://livedom.validator.nu/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Chtml%3E%0D%0A%3Cbody%3E%0D%0A%3Ccircle%20id%3D%22c%22%3E%0D%0A%3Cscript%3Ealert(document.getElementById(%22c%22).namespaceURI)%3B%0D%0A%3C%2Fscript%3E 20:34:56 http://livedom.validator.nu/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%3Cbody%3E%3Ccircle%3E%3Cscript%3Edocument.write(document.body.firstChild.namespaceURI)%3C%2Fscript%3E 20:36:09 ED: i think it would be similar if you find HTML elements inside SVG, unless it was one of those that break out of foreign content mode 20:36:14 ... i.e., it would be put in the SVG namespace 20:36:53 JW: but it's nearly all HTML elements will break out? 20:37:24 DS: the list of elements that break out are the ones with no overlap 20:37:37 ... the spec lists which elements break out 20:37:59 ED: is this something we need as an open point? 20:39:51 ED: i'll remove that and the "some feedback" point 20:40:16 ED: there's an XXX point about the camel case attributes 20:41:02 JW: we were talking about making, in future, all attribute names lowercase 20:41:15 ... but looking at the attributes, there are lots that have mixed case currently 20:41:37 ... if html5 and css are going to have to deal with those anyway, we just lose internal consistency with out spec 20:41:54 ... if html5 and css have to deal with our mixed case attributes, i'm wondering what the value is 20:42:11 DS: many people mistype viewBox as viewbox 20:42:48 ... we could say that either case is allowed for existing attributes 20:42:56 AG: and then slowly deprecate mixed case? 20:43:03 JW: we'll be stuck with mixed case 20:43:33 DS: i don't have a strong opinion either way 20:43:40 ... we have stroke-width, that's not camel cased 20:43:47 ... what do we lose by not camel casing attributes? 20:44:03 ED: those we have without camel casing is because of feedback from csswg (properties have to be consistent) 20:44:10 ... don't see why attributes couldn't be consistent in the same fashion 20:44:38 JW: i think camel casing makes it easier to remember to type, if things are consistent 20:44:46 DS: so that would argue for making them all lowercase 20:44:59 AG: unless you wanted to distinguish between svg attributes and properties 20:45:06 ED: that makes it harder for us to use css for some of those 20:45:40 DS: the only thing i can think of is that by using camel casing we're avoiding name clashes with css/html 20:46:30 CM: i agree that making future attributes lowercase and leaving the current ones mixed case would be confusing 20:47:58 JW: i'm not sure we're all going to agree on this at the moment 20:48:34 ED: the point that we decided on doesn't exactly say what we're going to do, just that it would be preferable, for integration with css/html, if everything were lowercase 20:48:43 ... and we can come back later to decide about mixed case attributes in svg 20:50:15 JW: ok i'll take the XXX point out and reword the paragraph before it 20:50:29 ... one of the other XXXs i added was about entities 20:52:26 CM: think that is in there just because i pointed out that html entities would work in my summary email 20:53:40 JW: if we're going to say that we recognise that entities won't work, why aren't we saying that we also recognising that svg with elements with the wrong case won't work when copied out, etc. 20:54:26 DS: you could say that we'd like to strive for consistency in how entities are treated 20:55:04 ... e.g. svg authoring tools sometimes generate entities, and html defines its own entities 20:55:14 ... we could strive for common processing of them 20:55:31 JW: for us, that would mean accepting html entities. what would it mean for html? 20:56:26 DS: maybe html could define a way that it could parse and allow entities from a DOCTYPE inserted into the middle of a document. i think it's ugly, but... 20:56:53 ... but it would make it easier for people importing content from an svg authoring tool 20:57:31 ... there should be some consistent balance so that authors know what to expect when using entities 20:57:39 JW: agreed [on the balance] 20:57:56 JW: so doug'll remove that XXX and add some text? 20:58:37 ED: one last one, does parse error imply non-conforming? 20:58:52 JW: i was just saying the second sentence was redundant, so can be removed 20:59:41 ED: i'll do that 21:00:36 ED: so that's all XXX points 21:00:42 CM: then there are the points on the mailing list 21:00:52 Topic: WAI ARIA spec review 21:01:08 ED: it's going to last call, they're asking for comments before march 24 21:01:13 DS: i think it's april 15 now 21:01:22 ... but we should review it and get back to them 21:01:30 ED: yes, i'll take an action to review it 21:01:44 DS: yes 21:02:02 ACTION: Erik to review WAI specs 21:02:02 Created ACTION-2484 - Review WAI specs [on Erik Dahlström - due 2009-03-12]. 21:02:17 ACTION: Doug to review WAI specs 21:02:18 Created ACTION-2485 - Review WAI specs [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-03-12]. 21:07:44 -heycam 21:07:46 -ed_ 21:07:48 -??P0 21:07:50 -anthony 21:07:59 -Shepazu 21:08:00 GA_SVGWG()2:30PM has ended 21:08:01 Attendees were Shepazu, ed_, heycam, anthony 21:10:23 RRSAgent, make minutes 21:10:23 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-svg-minutes.html heycam 21:12:00 Present: Doug, Erik, Cameron, Anthony, Jonathan 21:12:03 RRSAgent, make minutes 21:12:03 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-svg-minutes.html heycam 21:14:25 RRSAgent, bye 21:14:25 I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-svg-actions.rdf : 21:14:25 ACTION: Erik to review WAI specs [1] 21:14:25 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-svg-irc#T21-02-02 21:14:25 ACTION: Doug to review WAI specs [2] 21:14:25 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-svg-irc#T21-02-17