15:45:11 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
15:45:11 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-irc
15:45:40 <msporny> zakim, this will be rdfa
15:45:40 <Zakim> ok, msporny; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 15 minutes
15:45:51 <msporny> Scribe: Manu_Sporny
15:45:59 <msporny> ScribeNick: msporny
15:46:10 <msporny> Meeting: RDFa in XHTML Task Force
15:46:17 <msporny> Chair: Ben_Adida
15:47:07 <msporny> previous: http://www.w3.org/2009/02/19-rdfa-minutes.html
15:47:31 <msporny> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Mar/0055.html
15:47:48 <msporny> rrsagent, make log public
15:47:54 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:47:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
15:48:57 <msporny> Present: Manu_Sporny, Steven_Pemberton
15:51:58 <TomB> TomB has joined #rdfa
15:52:21 <msporny> Hi Tom :)
15:56:56 <msporny> Present+ Tom_Baker
15:58:22 <TomB> anyone else present? :-)
15:58:42 <msporny> Steven's here... Ben will be here... I think Shane is going to be able to make it.
15:59:05 <msporny> Regrets: Ralph_Swick, Mark_Birbeck, Michael_Hausenblas
15:59:16 <msporny> a light crew today, for sure.
16:00:33 <msporny> whoa, zakim dropped me.
16:00:59 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started
16:01:05 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
16:01:05 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
16:01:07 <Zakim> +??P32
16:01:09 <msporny> zakim, I am ??P32
16:01:09 <Zakim> +msporny; got it
16:01:32 <Steven> zakim, dro pme
16:01:32 <Zakim> I don't understand 'dro pme', Steven
16:01:37 <Steven> zakim, drop me
16:01:40 <Zakim> sorry, Steven, I do not see a party named 'Steven'
16:01:46 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
16:01:48 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
16:01:49 <Zakim> +Steven
16:01:53 <msporny> zakim, who is on the call?
16:01:53 <Zakim> On the phone I see msporny, Steven (muted)
16:03:41 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:03:54 <TomB> zakim, IPcaller is TomB
16:03:54 <Zakim> +TomB; got it
16:05:08 <benadida> benadida has joined #rdfa
16:05:44 <Zakim> +Ben_Adida
16:05:56 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #rdfa
16:06:29 <ShaneM> sorry forgot - omw
16:08:25 <Zakim> +ShaneM
16:08:33 <msporny> zakim, mute shanem
16:08:33 <Zakim> ShaneM should now be muted
16:08:54 <benadida> ack shanem
16:08:56 <Zakim> -ShaneM
16:09:04 <ShaneM> hardware problems - working on it
16:09:08 <ShaneM> go on without me
16:10:17 <Zakim> +ShaneM
16:10:30 <Steven> zakim, mute shane
16:10:30 <Zakim> ShaneM should now be muted
16:10:32 <Zakim> -ShaneM
16:14:12 <msporny> Topic: Action Items
16:15:23 <msporny> Steven: Everybody get the US Govt using RDFa e-mail?
16:15:25 <msporny> Manu: Yes.
16:15:39 <msporny> benadida: Very exciting stuff.
16:15:53 <msporny> Manu: We should discuss Julian's comments at the end.
16:15:55 <msporny> benadida: Yes.
16:16:00 <msporny> ACTION: Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa" with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
16:16:03 <msporny> -- continues
16:16:10 <msporny> ACTION: Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once the NS URI is set up. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
16:16:12 <msporny> -- continues
16:16:19 <msporny> ACTION: Manu to create TC to test @resource="[]" does not set object based on TC 123. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
16:16:21 <msporny> -- done
16:16:45 <msporny> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Mar/0056.html
16:16:56 <msporny> ACTION: Manu to look at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Dec/0037.html [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
16:17:11 <msporny> -- continues
16:17:32 <msporny> ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases for Ivan. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
16:17:34 <msporny> -- continues
16:17:42 <msporny> ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
16:17:43 <msporny> -- continues
16:17:51 <msporny> ACTION: Mark to review reasoning on setting explicit about="" on HEAD and BODY [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-rdfa-irc]
16:17:52 <msporny> -- continues
16:17:58 <msporny> ACTION: Mark to send Ben ubiquity related wizard stuff [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
16:17:59 <msporny> -- continues
16:18:05 <msporny> ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
16:18:07 <msporny> -- continues
16:18:13 <msporny> ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
16:18:15 <msporny> -- continues
16:18:22 <msporny> ACTION: Ralph or Steven fix the .htaccess for the XHTML namespace [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]
16:19:45 <msporny> -- continues
16:19:58 <msporny> Steven: There are two different documents being served up currently
16:20:13 <msporny> ... the ideal solution would be to have one document served up, so that they never get out of sync.
16:20:26 <msporny> benadida: Think you might be able to do that?
16:20:46 <msporny> Steven: I'll add it to my list of things to do... see if I can find some time for it.
16:20:50 <msporny> benadida: Ok
16:20:55 <msporny> ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
16:20:56 <msporny> -- continues
16:21:03 <msporny> Topic: Test Cases for @prefix
16:21:12 <benadida> scribenick: benadida
16:21:34 <benadida> Manu: talking about test cases for @prefix?
16:21:37 <benadida> Ben: yes
16:21:39 <msporny> http://rdfa.digitalbazaar.com/rdfa-test-harness/
16:22:03 <benadida> Manu: test cases 9001-9005
16:22:38 <benadida> ... start with 9001
16:22:40 <msporny> http://rdfa.info/wiki/Design-suite
16:23:21 <msporny> prefix="dcterms: http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
16:23:46 <benadida> Manu: using the ":" notation for prefix declaration
16:24:13 <msporny> prefix="xsd: http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#;"
16:24:16 <benadida> ... 9002 uses a more CSS syntax
16:24:27 <msporny> prefix="xsd=http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#"
16:24:33 <benadida> ... 9003 uses a standard "=" syntax
16:25:15 <msporny> We should also have a new test case for - prefix="dcterms http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
16:25:28 <benadida> Ben: wasn't there a syntax such as "dc http:// foaf http://"
16:25:33 <benadida> Manu: yes, I'll add that
16:26:01 <benadida> Ben: just to clarify, 9001 has a space after the colon in the prefix declaration
16:26:10 <benadida> Manu: I prefer the = notation, 9003
16:26:33 <benadida> ... issue with space-separation is it's easier to screw up
16:26:35 <TomB> q+ to note that dcterms is http://purl.org/dc/terms/... same as the legacy elements/1.1 for the fifteen elements but with the addition of formal ranges
16:28:40 <benadida> Tom: just wanted to flag the issue that the old DC namespace is still valid, the old terms have just be subsumed in the new terms
16:28:54 <benadida> ... only the new terms have a range specified, so dcterms:creator should not be  a literal.
16:29:09 <benadida> ... It's a legacy issue, dcmi predates RDF, and dcterms is specified to add ranges.
16:29:35 <benadida> ... dcmi couldn't impose a range on existing properties
16:29:39 <benadida> ... just wanted to flag this
16:30:06 <benadida> Manu: I had read that we should move to dcterms?
16:30:23 <benadida> Tom: DCMI gently encourages folks to use terms with formal ranges, but it's legacy and used so broadly
16:30:52 <benadida> ... that we're not withdrawing support for the old terms. Just gentle encouragement.
16:31:52 <benadida> Ben: in 9001, there's a mismatch between prefix declaration and the SPARQL
16:32:00 <benadida> Manu: how do we fix it the right way?
16:32:30 <benadida> Tom: it's never wrong to use dc:creator (elements/1.1), we're just encouraging people to use dcterms.
16:35:24 <benadida> Manu: we'll use dcterms and point to a URL instead of a literal, also update the prefix declaration.
16:40:28 <benadida> Manu: test case 9002
16:42:17 <Zakim> -TomB
16:49:31 <msporny> Fixes to 9002 - 1. Move "Tim Armstrong" out of A element.
16:49:42 <msporny> 2. Change "Tim Armstrong" to a URL.
16:50:00 <msporny> 3. Enclose SPARQL xmlschema#date in <>
16:50:55 <benadida> Manu: 9003 is the same, but with equal sign notation.
16:51:33 <msporny> Make 9001 have the same triples as 9002, 9003
16:52:20 <benadida> Ben: all test cases look good, given the mentioned modifications.
16:52:36 <benadida> Manu: I don't have a test case for @prefix in the HEAD defining for the rest of the document.
16:54:12 <msporny> scribe: msporny
16:54:16 <msporny> scribenick: msporny
16:54:22 <msporny> Topic: Wishlist for HTML5+RDFa
16:54:33 <msporny> benadida: Manu and I have started a wiki on what HTML5 could do with RDFa
16:54:51 <msporny> benadida: The document should contain what we'd like them to do and what we would not like them to do
16:55:05 <msporny> benadida: For example, triple stores are not needed for adopting RDFa.
16:55:19 <msporny> benadida: Outline things that should be up to the browser vendors on implementing.
16:55:34 <msporny> benadida: The document should clearly deliniate things that should be left to the implementors.
16:56:27 <msporny> Manu: Sounds good, but Ian might have an issue with "leaving it up to the browser vendors"
16:56:49 <msporny> benadida: Yes, but we should capture the differences between semantics and implementation of processing those semantics.
16:57:16 <msporny> Topic: Julian's comments
16:57:25 <msporny> Steven: It's a bit of guesswork on what he's trying to achieve.
16:57:45 <msporny> Steven: He's complaining about having CURIEs in @rel values because that would disallow URIs, directly.
16:57:58 <msporny> Steven: Unfortunately, "next" is a valid URI because it is a relative URI.
16:58:10 <msporny> Steven: Any URI will clash in a @rel value without doing something special with it.
16:58:37 <msporny> Steven: If he has an issue with CURIEs needing a double translation, then there is another issue with that approach
16:58:50 <msporny> Steven: You need to do processing on @href just like you have to do processing on @rel
17:04:02 <msporny> Steven: We shouldn't mess with values that we don't know how to deal with
17:04:14 <msporny> Steven: If we don't have a prefix mapping, we leave it alone.
17:05:29 <msporny> benadida: So, anybody can use http:// in @rel as long as RDFa treats it like a @rel it doesn't know.
17:05:54 <msporny> benadida: if you hit rel="foo" when you're parsing the tree, RDFa does nothing with that extra foo.
17:06:07 <msporny> benadida: We should make it more clear that he should be able to do "http:"
17:06:34 <ShaneM> all we say is how triples are extracted.  we dont say what some other processor might do with the data
17:06:43 <ShaneM> and we do not change the data.  so it should be fine
17:08:35 <msporny> benadida: We should outline how HTML5+RDFa happens with minimal effort to browser vendors.
17:09:25 <Zakim> -Steven
17:09:27 <Zakim> -Ben_Adida
17:09:37 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:09:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
17:09:52 <msporny> Present+ Ben_Adida, Shane_McCarron
17:09:54 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:09:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
17:14:28 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, msporny, in SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM
17:14:29 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended
17:14:31 <Zakim> Attendees were msporny, Steven, TomB, Ben_Adida, ShaneM
17:22:34 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:22:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
17:35:00 <msporny> ACTION: Manu to clean up TC 9001, 9002, 9003.
17:35:17 <msporny> ACTION: Manu to create TC for space-separated syntax for @prefix.
17:35:20 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:35:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
17:35:54 <msporny> zakim, bye
17:35:54 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdfa
17:35:59 <msporny> rrsagent, bye
17:35:59 <RRSAgent> I see 14 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-actions.rdf :
17:35:59 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa" with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] [1]
17:35:59 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-irc#T16-16-00
17:35:59 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once the NS URI is set up. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03] [2]
17:35:59 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-irc#T16-16-10
17:35:59 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to create TC to test @resource="[]" does not set object based on TC 123. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action14] [3]
17:35:59 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-irc#T16-16-19
17:35:59 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to look at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Dec/0037.html [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action15] [4]
17:35:59 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-irc#T16-16-56
17:35:59 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases for Ivan. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09] [5]
17:35:59 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-irc#T16-17-32
17:35:59 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] [6]
17:35:59 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-irc#T16-17-42
17:35:59 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mark to review reasoning on setting explicit about="" on HEAD and BODY [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-rdfa-irc] [7]
17:35:59 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-irc#T16-17-51
17:35:59 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mark to send Ben ubiquity related wizard stuff [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11] [8]
17:35:59 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-irc#T16-17-58
17:35:59 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13] [9]
17:35:59 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-irc#T16-18-05
17:35:59 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14] [10]
17:35:59 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-irc#T16-18-13
17:35:59 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ralph or Steven fix the .htaccess for the XHTML namespace [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action01] [11]
17:35:59 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-irc#T16-18-22
17:35:59 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15] [12]
17:35:59 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-irc#T16-20-55
17:35:59 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to clean up TC 9001, 9002, 9003. [13]
17:35:59 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-irc#T17-35-00
17:35:59 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to create TC for space-separated syntax for @prefix. [14]
17:35:59 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-irc#T17-35-17