15:47:14 RRSAgent has joined #forms 15:47:14 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/04-forms-irc 15:47:17 zakim, [IBM] is wiecha 15:47:17 +wiecha; got it 15:47:22 rrsagent, make log public 15:48:27 zakim, code? 15:48:27 the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), nick 15:48:33 zakim, code? 15:48:33 the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), nick 15:48:38 +John_Boyer 15:49:37 +Nick_van_den_Bleeken 15:49:44 zqkim, who is here? 15:49:46 John_Boyer has changed the topic to: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Mar/0009.html 15:49:56 Meeting: Weekly Forms WG Teleconference 15:49:57 zakim, who is here? 15:49:57 On the phone I see wiecha, John_Boyer, Nick_van_den_Bleeken 15:49:58 On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, John_Boyer, kenneth, wiecha, Steven, nick, trackbot 15:49:59 Chair: John 15:50:00 ebruchez has joined #forms 15:50:02 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Mar/0009.html 15:50:20 zakim, mute me 15:50:20 Nick_van_den_Bleeken should now be muted 15:50:21 I will be a few minutes late 15:50:39 unl has joined #forms 15:51:12 Regrets: Leigh, MarkB 15:51:26 zakim, who is here? 15:51:26 On the phone I see wiecha, John_Boyer, Nick_van_den_Bleeken (muted) 15:51:27 On IRC I see unl, ebruchez, RRSAgent, Zakim, John_Boyer, kenneth, wiecha, Steven, nick, trackbot 15:51:55 zakim, dial steven-617 15:51:55 ok, Steven; the call is being made 15:51:57 +Steven 15:52:00 + +49.307.544.aaaa 15:52:19 zakim, +49.307.544.aaaa is me 15:52:19 +unl; got it 15:52:34 zakim, mute me 15:52:34 unl should now be muted 15:55:18 oh no 15:55:30 i'm such a bad scribe 15:56:09 zakim, unmute me 15:56:09 unl should no longer be muted 15:56:41 -unl 15:57:49 +unl 15:58:27 zakim, who is here? 15:58:27 On the phone I see wiecha, John_Boyer, Nick_van_den_Bleeken (muted), Steven, unl 15:58:29 On IRC I see unl, ebruchez, RRSAgent, Zakim, John_Boyer, kenneth, wiecha, Steven, nick, trackbot 15:58:47 scribe: Uli 15:58:52 zakim, mute me 15:58:52 unl should now be muted 15:58:55 scribenick: unl 15:59:08 John:: 15:59:40 s/John::/Steven: going to the AC meeting/ 16:00:19 Steven: will be on a panel about XHTML and HTML 16:00:30 Steven: of course XForms is included 16:00:59 Steven: the day will be about a11y 16:01:25 Steven: they are excited about XHTML/XForms 16:02:12 +ebruchez 16:02:40 Thanks to DAISY consortium 16:03:36 Steven/John/Charlie: declarative approach much better than procedural 16:03:44 Accessibility needs provide strong requirements for more declarative constructs so it's easier to tell what's going on and presentit on alternate channel 16:04:07 since procedural semantics are fundamentally intractable 16:04:07 accessibility can be layered on procedural languages via an API which winds up being an alternative form of "declarative" abstraction 16:04:18 so we should think about comparing APIs vs. markup 16:05:27 check out the backplane minutes from yesterday for a discussion of points we might raise during the AC meeting 16:05:50 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-app-backplane/2009Mar/0002.html 16:06:10 Topic: XHTML and XForms schemas 16:06:22 Steven: need Leigh's help on RNC 16:06:37 Steven: XHTML WG will merge XForms and XHTML schemas 16:06:50 Steven: lokking for attribute clashes 16:06:59 s/lokking/looking/ 16:07:27 Steven: e.g. RDFa has @resource 16:08:19 John: @encoding on xf:submission 16:09:56 Topic: Timezone issues 16:10:15 Steven: next 3 three weeks times are different 16:10:24 ... for europeans 16:12:10 Topic: Forms Newsletter 16:12:12 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Feb/0094.html 16:13:23 John: some mistakes regarding tests 16:13:34 ... will check 16:13:57 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Feb/0049.html 16:15:59 ... a number of failing submission tests are now implemented in ubiquity 16:16:01 no mistake on counting; misread "recommended" in submission section 16:16:23 submission is recommended, but if you implement, then certain features are *required* so we need two passing tests 16:16:31 and only have one for a number of tests 16:16:45 I've sent in a Chiba report last weekend, and it passes also quite some tests 16:17:34 ACTION: john to send newsletter to www-forms 16:17:34 Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - john 16:17:34 Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jkugelma, jboyer) 16:18:14 no 16:18:16 Topic: XForms 1.1 completion 16:18:17 83% 16:18:31 John: Nick sent an impl report for Chiba 16:18:56 mainly Core Form Controls, and data types have much failurs 16:18:58 John: so we get more 2 passing tests 16:19:20 s/passing tests/passing tests per feature/ 16:19:31 yes 16:19:44 just give me an action 16:19:50 zakim, unmute me 16:19:50 Nick_van_den_Bleeken should no longer be muted 16:19:56 ACTION: nick to put Chiba impl report into CVS 16:19:56 Created ACTION-517 - Put Chiba impl report into CVS [on Nick Van Den Bleeken - due 2009-03-11]. 16:22:08 John: we got permission from EMC to publish impl report 16:22:43 Nick: which email? 16:23:35 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-forms/2009Feb/0028.html 16:23:46 John: exclude chapter 11 and appendix B 16:24:07 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-forms/2009Mar/0000.html 16:24:07 http://www.agencexml.com/xforms-tests/testsuite/XForms1.1/Edition1/driverPages/html/ 16:24:11 ACTION: nick to put EMC impl report into CVS 16:24:11 Created ACTION-518 - Put EMC impl report into CVS [on Nick Van Den Bleeken - due 2009-03-11]. 16:25:03 Steven: ... 16:25:15 s/.../can we exit CR? 16:29:22 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Feb/0049.html 16:29:47 John: once the other impl reports are in place we need an updated test suite triage 16:30:56 John: MarkB sent regrets because he and his team is having a coding marathon on ubiquity 16:31:13 Steven: seems to work better and better in opera 16:32:10 Steven: will be talking on MozCamp in NL 16:32:32 Steven: will demonstrate ubiquity in mozilla 16:32:48 John: take care to preload all the js files 16:33:38 John: you can pack all js files into one for deployment, loads magnitudes faster 16:34:38 Topic: Spec error on "at" attribute 16:34:43 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Mar/0000.html 16:34:58 John: already corrected it in my own spec copy 16:35:25 John: @at in 1.0 is evaluated in context of @nodeset 16:35:40 John: enables stuff like at="last()" 16:36:29 zakim, mute me 16:36:29 Nick_van_den_Bleeken should now be muted 16:36:31 John: in 1.1 it is described correctly in processing rules for insert, but not in overview 16:36:36 http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/#action-insert 16:37:59 ACTION: jboyer to fix overview text of at attribute 16:37:59 Created ACTION-519 - Fix overview text of at attribute [on John Boyer - due 2009-03-11]. 16:38:06 Would like an action to say "... XPath expression evaluated using the Node Set Binding node-set ..." for at attribute of insert (synch with processing rules and delete) 16:38:41 Topic: Default for separator attribute 16:38:44 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Mar/0005.html 16:39:13 John: xf:submission has @separator for url-encoded submissions 16:39:28 John: the default is semicolon instead of ampersand 16:39:40 John: which seems wrong 16:39:40 chiba does 16:40:12 Erik: any reason why we just can't change it? 16:41:33 zakim, unmte me 16:41:33 I don't understand 'unmte me', nick 16:41:37 Charlie: no strong opinion 16:41:49 zakim, unmute me 16:41:49 Nick_van_den_Bleeken should no longer be muted 16:42:43 Erik: everybody who's implementing semicolon as default now has to specify ampersand so probably nothing would break 16:43:29 Erik: furthermore with ampersand as default we could remove @separator in many forms 16:43:39 Nick: no strong feelings either 16:44:52 zakim, unmute me 16:44:52 unl should no longer be muted 16:45:07 i think my code using shindig does use them 16:45:26 zakim, mute me 16:45:26 unl should now be muted 16:45:46 Charlie/Uli: semicolon still useful for REST services 16:46:05 Steven has joined #forms 16:46:23 zakim, dial steven-617 16:46:23 ok, Steven; the call is being made 16:46:25 +Steven.a 16:47:42 Steven_ has joined #forms 16:48:12 Steven: the forms that assume semicolon as default will break 16:49:05 Steven: we changed it because some specs say that semicolon will be the default in the web in future 16:49:21 John: but ampersand still rules the web... 16:49:40 Steven: considering that noone adopted semicolon its ok 16:50:05 B.2.2 Ampersands in URI attribute values 16:50:05 16:50:05 The URI that is constructed when a form is submitted may be used as an anchor-style link (e.g., the href attribute for the A element). Unfortunately, the use of the "&" character to separate form fields interacts with its use in SGML attribute values to delimit character entity references. For example, to use the URI "http://host/?x=1&y=2" as a linking URI, it must be written or . 16:50:05 16:50:07 We recommend that HTTP server implementors, and in particular, CGI implementors support the use of ";" in place of "&" to save authors the trouble of escaping "&" characters in this manner. 16:50:15 RESOLUTION: keep @separator, but change default to ampersand 16:50:25 zakim, mute me 16:50:25 Nick_van_den_Bleeken should now be muted 16:50:26 http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/appendix/notes.html#ampersands-in-uris 16:50:48 zakim, umute me 16:50:48 I don't understand 'umute me', nick 16:51:24 zakim, unmute me 16:51:24 Nick_van_den_Bleeken should no longer be muted 16:51:45 John: outstanding action items? 16:52:04 Erik: got CVS access, will work on action items 16:52:36 I did Action 2009-02-25.6 and Action 2009-02-18.3 16:53:28 nick, i did http://www.w3.org/2008/10/21-forms-minutes.html#action02 16:53:29 need to put your version of 11 2 g.xhtml in the cvs 16:53:45 but don't have an action item of that 16:55:22 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Mar/0001.html 16:55:53 John: what about 1.11.p? 16:56:07 Topic: Test case 1.11.p 16:56:20 John: its about @standalone on xf:submission 16:57:25 Nick: you have to omit @standalone to have it excluded from submitted data 16:58:09 http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/#submit-submission-element 16:58:11 Nick: @standalone="false" will yield a @standalone="no" in your XML decl 16:59:28 John: fixing the test means it should hava a trigger or submission 16:59:36 Nick: that's what i've done 16:59:39 a third trigger 16:59:56 s/hava/have/ 17:00:06 ACTION: nick to fix test 1.11.p 17:00:07 Created ACTION-520 - Fix test 1.11.p [on Nick Van Den Bleeken - due 2009-03-11]. 17:00:36 s/1.11.p/11.1.p/ 17:00:44 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Mar/0001.html 17:00:53 add a third submission so we test the three possibilities 17:01:30 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Feb/0078.html 17:01:43 Topic: Issues with test 11.11.2.a 17:02:13 zakim, mute me 17:02:13 Nick_van_den_Bleeken should now be muted 17:03:16 Erik: problem with content type for SOAP messages 17:03:20 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Feb/0081.html 17:04:00 Erik: it's a SOAP version issue 17:04:25 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Feb/0077.html 17:04:37 Erik: so in 11.11.2 a is no problem 17:04:55 Erik: but in 11.1.1 a is 17:05:39 Erik: it has a "root" element around the SOAP envelope 17:06:14 chiba has the extra root element too 17:06:29 yes 17:06:38 John: seems the @ref on submission is wrong 17:08:00 John: would include the "root" element to be sent 17:11:05 Charlie: ... 17:13:23 ACTION: ebruchez to fix test 11.1.1 a (fix @ref and and add @mediatype) 17:13:23 Created ACTION-521 - Fix test 11.1.1 a (fix @ref and and add @mediatype) [on Erik Bruchez - due 2009-03-11]. 17:14:15 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-forms/2009Feb/0025.html 17:14:44 Topic: Issue with Appendix B 14.a Move Attribute 17:15:04 -Steven.a 17:16:06 Erik: exchange @nodeset with @context 17:16:37 bye 17:16:41 ACTION: ebruchez to fix test B 14 a (use @context instead of @nodeset) 17:16:41 Created ACTION-522 - Fix test B 14 a (use @context instead of @nodeset) [on Erik Bruchez - due 2009-03-11]. 17:16:50 -ebruchez 17:16:51 -Nick_van_den_Bleeken 17:16:53 -wiecha 17:16:54 -John_Boyer 17:16:58 -unl 17:17:12 zakim, who is here? 17:17:12 On the phone I see Steven 17:17:13 On IRC I see Steven, unl, ebruchez, RRSAgent, Zakim, John_Boyer, kenneth, wiecha, nick, trackbot 17:17:22 zakim, disconnect Steven 17:17:22 Steven is being disconnected 17:17:24 HTML_Forms()10:45AM has ended 17:17:26 Attendees were wiecha, John_Boyer, Nick_van_den_Bleeken, Steven, unl, ebruchez, Steven.a 17:17:31 rrsagent, make minutes 17:17:31 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/04-forms-minutes.html John_Boyer 17:17:36 rrsagent, bye 17:17:36 I see 7 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/04-forms-actions.rdf : 17:17:36 ACTION: john to send newsletter to www-forms [1] 17:17:36 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/04-forms-irc#T16-17-34 17:17:36 ACTION: nick to put Chiba impl report into CVS [2] 17:17:36 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/04-forms-irc#T16-19-56 17:17:36 ACTION: nick to put EMC impl report into CVS [3] 17:17:36 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/04-forms-irc#T16-24-11 17:17:36 ACTION: jboyer to fix overview text of at attribute [4] 17:17:36 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/04-forms-irc#T16-37-59 17:17:36 ACTION: nick to fix test 1.11.p [5] 17:17:36 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/04-forms-irc#T17-00-06 17:17:36 ACTION: ebruchez to fix test 11.1.1 a (fix @ref and and add @mediatype) [6] 17:17:36 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/04-forms-irc#T17-13-23 17:17:36 ACTION: ebruchez to fix test B 14 a (use @context instead of @nodeset) [7] 17:17:36 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/04-forms-irc#T17-16-41