19:28:33 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #cg
19:28:33 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/04-cg-irc
19:28:38 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make log public
19:28:53 <JR> JR has joined #cg
19:29:04 <janina> zakim, this will be cg
19:29:04 <Zakim> ok, janina; I see WAI_CG()2:30PM scheduled to start in 1 minute
19:29:15 <janina> zakim, call janina
19:29:15 <Zakim> ok, janina; the call is being made
19:29:16 <Zakim> WAI_CG()2:30PM has now started
19:29:17 <Zakim> +Janina
19:29:26 <JR> zakim, code?
19:29:26 <Zakim> the conference code is 92424 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), JR
19:29:30 <MichaelC> agenda: http://www.w3.org/mid/20090304025830.GB14044@sonata.rednote.net
19:29:34 <MichaelC> chair: Janina
19:29:44 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
19:29:49 <MichaelC> meeting: Special WAI CG meeting on HTML alt
19:29:53 <oedipus> for reference: http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/TextAlternativeProposal
19:29:58 <Zakim> +Cooper
19:30:07 <oedipus> thanks to laura for compiling http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/TextAlternativeProposal?action=show
19:30:26 <Zakim> +jeanne
19:31:17 <Zakim> +??P22
19:31:28 <Zakim> +Matt_May
19:31:39 <Loretta> Loretta has joined #cg
19:31:47 <janina> zakim, who is on the phone?
19:31:52 <Zakim> On the phone I see Janina, Gregory_Rosmaita, Cooper, jeanne, ??P22, Matt_May
19:32:02 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
19:32:16 <Ben_> Ben_ has joined #cg
19:32:19 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
19:32:30 <Zakim> +??P27
19:32:30 <jeanne> jeanne has joined #cg
19:32:33 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P22 is Gregg_Vanderheiden
19:32:36 <Zakim> +Loretta_Guarino_Reid
19:32:38 <Zakim> +Gregg_Vanderheiden; got it
19:32:39 <JR> zakim, ??P27 is really JR
19:32:47 <greggvanderheiden> greggvanderheiden has joined #cg
19:32:50 <Zakim> +JR; got it
19:32:54 <Stevef> zakim, IPcaller.a is me
19:32:57 <oedipus> present+ Ben_Caldwell
19:33:03 <Zakim> +Stevef; got it
19:33:15 <oedipus> zakim, who is here?
19:33:17 <Zakim> On the phone I see Janina, Gregory_Rosmaita, Cooper, jeanne, Gregg_Vanderheiden, Matt_May, [IPcaller], Stevef, JR, Loretta_Guarino_Reid
19:33:22 <Zakim> Gregg_Vanderheiden has Gregg_Vanderheiden, Ben_Caldwell
19:33:25 <MichaelC> zakim, IPCaller is Gez_Lemon
19:33:27 <Zakim> On IRC I see greggvanderheiden, jeanne, Ben_, Loretta, JR, RRSAgent, janina, Zakim, MichaelC, Stevef, oedipus, judy, trackbot
19:33:31 <Zakim> +Gez_Lemon; got it
19:33:37 <oedipus> potential regrets from Laura_Carlson
19:33:50 <oedipus> thanks to laura for compiling http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/TextAlternativeProposal?action=show
19:34:04 <oedipus> zakim, victim?
19:34:04 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, oedipus.
19:34:08 <oedipus> zakim, choose a victim
19:34:09 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Loretta_Guarino_Reid
19:34:26 <janina> zakim, pick a victim
19:34:26 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Ben_Caldwell
19:34:44 <oedipus> Scribe: Ben_Caldwell
19:34:49 <oedipus> ScribeNick: Ben_
19:36:29 <oedipus> GJR needs to update http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/AccessibilityDependencies
19:37:13 <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/TextAlternativeProposal
19:37:40 <oedipus> JS: start with markup, then move to wordsmithing
19:37:48 <oedipus> GV: agree - 
19:37:52 <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/TextAlternativeProposal
19:38:01 <Ben_> agenda+     WAI-CG on Alt: Continuing Discussion On "Alt=Needed"; GJR's Type=/Role=; Others?
19:38:07 <Ben_> agenda+     Question: RESOLUTION on Alternative Text Guidance
19:38:12 <oedipus> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2009JanMar/0536.html
19:38:13 <Ben_> agenda+ next and future meetings
19:38:20 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/mid/20090304024417.GG7282@sonata.rednote.net
19:38:33 <Ben_> Meeting: Special_Alt_CG telecon 4 March 2009
19:38:44 <Ben_> zakim, take up agendum 1
19:38:44 <Zakim> agendum 1. "WAI-CG on Alt: Continuing Discussion On "Alt=Needed"; GJR's Type=/Role=; Others?" taken up [from Ben_]
19:38:48 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/mid/20090304024417.GG7282@sonata.rednote.net
19:39:52 <oedipus> laura collected such pages at http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/TextAlternativeProposal
19:40:23 <janina> Collection of proposals & resolutions at: 
19:40:25 <janina> http://www.w3.org/mid/20090217184547.GD3793@sonata.rednote.net
19:40:25 <oedipus> "That HTML5 validity REQUIRE a terse text alternatives and that these be provided for non-text items using one of the HTML5 specified methods: (alt, labelledby, or legend)."
19:41:59 <oedipus> previous proposals: http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/TextAlternativeProposal?action=show#head-2542c1f8a5b7137c012e3852a00f238d12cff58f
19:42:08 <oedipus> related resources: http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/TextAlternativeProposal?action=show#head-23563d952ac69c70fb90770a21ee16143cdd17ba
19:42:48 <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/TextAlternativeProposal
19:42:49 <Gez> Gez has joined #cg
19:43:52 <oedipus> item 6: "Long text alternatives (to supplement terse text alternatives) are not required for validity (though they may be required by WCAG 2.0 for some types of non-text content)."
19:44:30 <JR> JR has joined #cg
19:44:31 <oedipus> GJR: Consider dropping point 6 to avoid conflation of long and terse text alternatives. 
19:44:38 <oedipus> JS: can we agree on first 5?
19:45:23 <oedipus> GV: agree on first 5 before discuss item 6 (long descriptor)
19:46:05 <Ben_> JS: suggest we include long text alt in advice to HTML WG, but let's agree on terse first
19:46:18 <oedipus> 1. "That HTML5 validity REQUIRE a terse text alternatives and that these be provided for non-text items using one of the HTML5 specified methods: (alt, labelledby, or legend)."
19:46:35 <JR> q+
19:46:42 <oedipus> s/text alternatives/text alternative
19:47:15 <oedipus> GV: readd "following"
19:47:17 <oedipus> JS: yes
19:47:38 <oedipus> For images; alt attribute or aria-labelledby can be used.
19:47:38 <oedipus> For figures; alt attribute, aria-labelledby, or legend can be used. 
19:47:52 <Ben_> q+
19:48:17 <janina> q?
19:48:21 <Gez> q+
19:48:40 <oedipus> q+ to say don't want to lose tying together of LEGEND and @alt (content should be same, save LEGEND can take markup ("rich text")
19:48:49 <Ben_> GV: suggest that for now, HTML5 not worry about accessibility support
19:49:05 <Ben_> GV: shouldn't prevent something from being valid because there is no suppport today
19:49:08 <Ben_> ack JR
19:49:09 <greggvanderheiden> ack jr
19:50:05 <oedipus> Ben: is @alt a valid attribute for FIGURE
19:50:15 <oedipus> GJR: IMG is a child of FIGURE
19:50:18 <Laura> Laura has joined #cg
19:50:53 <oedipus> Ben: @alt on FIGURE doesn't make sense -- already stated alt needed
19:51:01 <oedipus> GV: specify that alt be on IMG
19:51:17 <oedipus> Ben: examples of FIGURE with child paragraph and child legend
19:51:25 <JR> q+
19:51:40 <oedipus> GV: for Figure, @alt applied to IMG if present
19:51:49 <oedipus> JR: multiple images inside a figure?
19:52:10 <oedipus> JR: one LEGEND sufficient for FIGURE?
19:52:17 <oedipus> GJR: composite images allowed in FIGURE
19:52:27 <Ben_> GV: could have figure with muliple pictures
19:52:49 <oedipus> GV: Figure containing 3 figures; LEGEND "3 Stages of Butterfly Growth", specific alt for each IMG in FIGURE
19:53:19 <JR> q-
19:53:51 <Ben_> q-
19:54:38 <Stevef> q+
19:54:42 <janina> q?
19:55:20 <Ben_> ack Gez
19:55:38 <Joshue> Joshue has joined #cg
19:56:14 <oedipus> GV: composite images - ARIA BPG states that DIV marked as role="image" can contain composite images, with the alt text for the composite attached to the first IMG declaration and the rest of the composite IMG use alt=""
19:56:22 <greggvanderheiden> q+
19:56:22 <JR> q+
19:56:26 <Ben_> GL: was going to mention alt attribute on figure issue. WCAG 2.0 includes 5 star rating system where one image has alt and the others have alt="". A more appropriate way to do this woul dhave been to have use something like figure
19:56:34 <oedipus> ack oe\
19:56:35 <oedipus> ack oe
19:56:36 <Zakim> +Laura_Carlson
19:56:37 <Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to say don't want to lose tying together of LEGEND and @alt (content should be same, save LEGEND can take markup ("rich text")
19:56:37 <Ben_> ack stefe
19:56:40 <janina> q?
19:56:42 <Ben_> ack stevef
19:57:35 <janina> q?
19:57:43 <Ben_> GJR: in GV's example would have three alternatives for 3 images
19:58:08 <oedipus> pointer, please?
19:58:45 <oedipus> yes, i was referring to COMPOSITE images only
19:58:46 <Ben_> SF: mentions one of the HTML5 examples having to do with castles. Where would legend fit in for this? (when each image has an alternative and a legend acts like a group label) 
19:58:49 <Stevef> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/embedded-content-0.html#the-figure-element
19:59:05 <Joshue> zakim, code?
19:59:05 <Zakim> the conference code is 92424 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Joshue
20:00:53 <janina> q?
20:01:07 <Ben_> GV: correct that when you have an image with different pieces glued together, then you'd have an alt on one and hide the others (using alt=""). In this example where we have 3 butterflies in a figure, it would appear that the best thing to do would be that if the legend is "3 stages of butterfly growth," that's not very useful. Alt text out to say something about each stage (where each image depicts a stage)...
20:01:08 <Ben_> ack gv
20:01:12 <Ben_> ack gregg
20:01:12 <oedipus> in case of multiple IMGs, LEGEND = meta-data for images as a whole, @alt or labelledby used to attach specific textual alternative to each individual image since they are designed to be perceived not as a single image, but a series of images
20:03:24 <Gez> Code I used was: 92424
20:03:26 <janina> q?
20:03:29 <oedipus> implicit role for IMG in absence of declaration is role="image" which requires @alt or labelledby
20:03:32 <Ben_> GV: need to think about a couple things. Are these the only places where we require text alternatives? Other thing is that we need to look at both forward and backward compatability. Final point is that when we have things like FIGURE with an image inside, are we going to expect that users in AT will understand that when they hit an image and they they are marked presentation, will they understand that a legend or labeled by is coming later?
20:04:09 <oedipus> q+
20:04:13 <oedipus> ack JR
20:04:14 <greggvanderheiden> q+
20:04:24 <janina> q?
20:04:25 <Ben_> JR: Concerned that FIGURE is a rat hole. Putting role="presentation" on an image just to hide it seems like a hack.
20:04:29 <oedipus> in case of multiple IMGs, LEGEND = meta-data for images as a whole, @alt or labelledby used to attach specific textual alternative to each individual image since they are designed to be perceived not as a single image, but a series of images
20:04:56 <janina> q?
20:05:01 <Ben_> ack oed
20:05:05 <Ben_> ack gregg
20:05:09 <janina> q?
20:05:16 <oedipus> implicit role for IMG in absence of declaration is role="image" which requires @alt or labelledby
20:05:45 <janina> q?
20:06:08 <janina> q?
20:06:30 <Ben_> GV: agree with GJR, presentation or alt="" should be put on a meaningful image only if there is an image that is one image but it has been sliced up for specific reasons. If a series of images, then each should have it's own alt. If a compound image, it is meant to be perceived as a single image (same for sliced images). But, anytime you have a series of images which appears to be a series of images to the user, it should have a series of alts.
20:06:31 <oedipus> IMG alt="Five Stars" not IMG="star" IMG="star" IMG="star" IMG="star" IMG="star" 
20:07:24 <Ben_> GV: need to say "non-text items that are not presentational" in #1
20:07:41 <Ben_> JS: may do some cleanup later, more concerned that we agree on markup, can tweak later
20:08:55 <Stevef> q+
20:09:29 <oedipus> the 3 butterfly scenario would NOT be a composite image
20:09:33 <Ben_> JS: need to think of various types of alt for various types of media. Might want to focus on a specific image within a figure element. If just legend, it might be harder to get to.
20:09:47 <janina> q?
20:09:54 <Ben_> GJR: 3 butterflies is not composite, it's a series of images in a group
20:10:17 <Ben_> GJR: composite is "all of the images combined to form a complete image"
20:10:22 <Ben_> ack Stevef
20:10:47 <Ben_> SF: regarding figure, why not just say, "for images containing figures" ?
20:10:57 <janina> q?
20:12:30 <janina> q?
20:13:17 <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/TextAlternativeProposal
20:15:39 <oedipus> For an IMG which is a child of a FIGURE, alt attribute (on a child image), aria-labelledby, or legend can be used. 
20:15:42 <janina> q?
20:17:01 <oedipus> "For figures; alt attribute (on a child image), aria-labelledby, or legend can be used"
20:17:49 <oedipus> "NOTE:If (and only if) an image is broken up into pieces that are perceived as one image the text alternative for the compound image can be on the first image with the other pieces marked as presentational. This does not apply to a series of pictures"
20:18:25 <oedipus> suggest "are intended to be perceived as a single image"
20:18:28 <Stevef> q+
20:18:48 <Ben_> GJR: suggest "intended to be perceived as a single image"
20:19:05 <Stevef> For an IMG which is a child of a FIGURE, alt attribute, aria-labelledby, or legend can be used. 
20:19:33 <janina> q?
20:19:43 <Ben_> ack Steve
20:20:25 <Ben_> SF: suggest, "For an IMG which is a child of a FIGURE, alt attribute, aria-labelledby, or legend can be used." 
20:21:08 <janina> q?
20:21:34 <Loretta> q+
20:22:05 <Ben_> GV: what's UA/AT behavior for figure/legend?
20:22:30 <Ben_> GJR: understanding is that it behaves like caption on table, not necessarily an equivalent, but more like a lable
20:22:36 <oedipus> GJR: sees LEGEND as a CAPTION (for table) or Heading for image; alt text often different than caption
20:23:08 <Ben_> LGR: if alt, AT would probably just use that, probably wouldn't go looking for LEGEND
20:23:17 <janina> q?
20:23:21 <Ben_> ack Lor
20:23:35 <janina> q?
20:26:02 <oedipus> q+
20:26:27 <oedipus> For an image that is a child of a figure, the alt attribute and/or the aria-labelledby can be used. To provide a terse descriptor for a collection of images contained in a FIGURE, LEGEND can be used to provide a terse description of the varied images, and @alt or labelledby needs to be specified for each image. Note: this does not applly if the multiple IMG declarations are part of a _composite image_.
20:27:27 <oedipus> "_composite image_" indicates a defined term, as agreed to earlier
20:27:39 <janina> q?
20:27:43 <oedipus> ack oe
20:28:09 <Stevef> q+
20:28:22 <janina> q?
20:29:20 <Stevef> change "non-text items" to "images"
20:30:43 <janina> q?
20:31:14 <oedipus> GJR: sees LEGEND for FIGURE as a CAPTION (for TABLE) or a heading for image; alt text often different than caption
20:33:18 <Ben_> ack Stevef
20:33:18 <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/MediaSpecificElements
20:34:10 <oedipus> the wiki page cited above covers all media-specific elements in a consistent manner
20:34:18 <Ben_> SF: in first sentence of #1, it says non-text items, we also talke about images, but also video, etc. Suggest we get rid of non-text items and just say images
20:35:03 <Ben_> GJR: tried to build consistent model for all media-specific elements (canvas, figure, video, audio) - so that there is possibility for rich content, content negotiation, etc. 
20:35:12 <Joshue> It would be best to stay within the domain of images and not move into rich media, would that confuse matters to do so? probably
20:35:18 <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/MediaSpecificElements
20:35:23 <Ben_> JS: should look to see if we can generalize this to various kinds of media
20:36:06 <Ben_> JS: think Jan's idea to look more closely at FIGURE is a good one, should we add other examples in #1?
20:36:48 <oedipus> agree strongly with SteveF -- let's answer the question we were asked
20:36:50 <JR> +1
20:36:56 <Gez> +1
20:37:03 <Ben_> SF: don't feel good about getting into these other things - started out talking about alt attribute on images. if we start talking about other exmaples, will become more problematic. not saying we shouldn't look at them, just that we separate them out
20:37:16 <Laura> +1 to Steve
20:37:20 <Joshue> +1
20:37:59 <oedipus> generic media-specific element model:
20:37:59 <oedipus> <ELEMENT>
20:37:59 <oedipus> <LEGEND></LEGEND> - required
20:37:59 <oedipus> <CAPTION></CAPTION> - required
20:37:59 <oedipus> <DESC></DESC> - required (maps to HTML4's @longdesc)
20:38:00 <oedipus> <HELP></HELP>
20:38:02 <oedipus> </ELEMENT>
20:38:30 <janina> q?
20:38:34 <oedipus> in above, legend maps to @alt and CAPTION does what its name suggests
20:38:36 <Ben_> GV: proposes second note. have we captured everyone's major ideas?
20:38:55 <Ben_> Topic: 2.) That HTML5 state that "For guidance on accessibility requirements for text alternatives authors SHOULD consult WCAG 2.0." 
20:39:17 <Joshue> +1 to that
20:39:19 <Gez> +1
20:39:30 <Laura> +1
20:39:40 <oedipus> alt text not just for accessibility - minus 1
20:39:43 <Ben_> JS: do we agree that accessibility advice should not be scattered outside of WAI documents?
20:40:03 <Ben_> GV: also frees editors up to make comments about usage outside of accessibility
20:40:22 <Ben_> JS: think we should add something about working with them to provide appropriate pointers
20:40:26 <Ben_> GV: can be dangerous
20:41:10 <Ben_> MC: good to provide meta note to say that we are explicity intending to free them up to include advice about use cases that are not accessibility related
20:41:44 <Ben_> JS: can wordsmith further at a later date
20:41:48 <oedipus> plus 1 to move on
20:41:52 <Joshue> I think advice can be found outside of WAI docs but that advice should support WCAG and the languages and specifications themselves should natively enable compliance with WCAG
20:42:06 <oedipus> good point, Josh
20:42:15 <Ben_> JS: clear enough to move on?
20:42:24 <Ben_> Topic: 3.) That the proper use of role="presentation" be taken from ARIA 1.0. 
20:42:26 <janina> q?
20:42:58 <Ben_> group agrees
20:43:14 <Ben_> Topic: 4.) The following points regarding alt="" validity are under discussion. EITHER: (5 options)
20:43:52 <oedipus> A. That alt="" is valid ONLY when role="presentation".
20:44:03 <oedipus> B. That alt="" is valid ONLY when role="presentation". An IMG without a role attribute is the equivalent of <IMG aria-role="image"> and REQUIRES the use of alt, labelledby, and/or LEGEND for validity. For guidance as to what constitutes a valid text alternative for the purpose of disability access consult WCAG 
20:44:11 <oedipus> C. That alt="" WITHOUT an accompanying role="presentation" MUST trigger a non-critical validity warning (but is still valid)
20:44:20 <oedipus> D. That alt="" is valid ONLY when role="presentation" (or role="presentation" would be appropriate if role is not used). alt="" with any role besides "presentation" MUST trigger a validity error. 
20:44:47 <Gez> +1 to option C
20:44:54 <JR> q+
20:45:10 <Joshue> For C, what does still valid mean?
20:45:21 <Ben_> GV: comes back to whether we require ARIA
20:45:21 <Joshue> Still considered conforming to HTML 5?
20:45:41 <Ben_> JS: I have an action to formally ask HTML5 chair whether it is their intention to include ARIA (part or all) into HTML5
20:46:10 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/391
20:46:14 <Joshue> As role="presentation" is an ARIA construct, then its use etc should be defined in ARIA
20:46:18 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2009/03/04-pf-minutes.html#action01
20:46:29 <Ben_> GV: let's assume ARIA will be included, if not, then we have to revisit whole discussion
20:46:52 <Ben_> GV: if included, it will be things that the author can use, not that they must use, correct?
20:47:21 <janina> q?
20:47:34 <Ben_> ack JR
20:47:52 <Ben_> JR: other possibility is that you should use ARIA, if not, you get the warning
20:48:25 <janina> q?
20:49:10 <oedipus> q+
20:49:16 <Ben_> ack oed
20:49:56 <Ben_> GJR: reason B was so long was that I tried to capture concept of img without role attribute is equivalent of role="img" and needs alt or labelledby
20:50:15 <oedipus> GJR: A is open to abuse, as Jan noted
20:50:17 <Ben_> GV: concern was with D, which says if you use alt="" then you must use ARIA
20:50:28 <Ben_> JR: D already weakens itself because of the OR
20:50:33 <Stevef> q+
20:50:38 <oedipus> GJR: plus 1 to cleaner version of B
20:50:45 <oedipus> q?
20:51:08 <Ben_> ack Stevef
20:51:47 <Ben_> SF: an image without an alt attribute and role="presentation" would be acceptable?
20:52:04 <oedipus> B. alt="" is valid ONLY when an IMG's role="presentation". An IMG without a role attribute is the equivalent of <IMG aria-role="image"> and REQUIRES the use of alt, labelledby, and/or LEGEND for validity. For guidance as to what constitutes a valid text alternative for the purpose of disability access consult WCAG 2.0.
20:53:17 <Ben_> SF: if we're asking for role="presentation" , also asking for alt="" seems redundant
20:53:25 <Ben_> JR: is it worth doing a straw poll on that?
20:53:39 <janina> q?
20:53:41 <Ben_> GJR: Think we have to keep alt because of backward compatibility.
20:53:46 <Ben_> GV: think we should, not sure we must
20:53:49 <JR> q+
20:53:57 <Ben_> GV: for WCAG, you would need it until AT supports it
20:53:58 <Joshue> I also like the B option but I have a question. An image can be presentational, without having the role="presentation", the wording will have to be a little different as it could be confusing.
20:54:14 <Joshue> To authors  I mean btw.
20:54:22 <oedipus> josh, it does need wordsmithing
20:54:24 <JR> q-
20:54:59 <Ben_> SF: also need to look at behavior of AT with regards to content without any alt attibute (currently mostly ignored except when in a link)
20:55:07 <Ben_> JS: think we can expect fairly quick uptake of ARIA in AT
20:55:15 <oedipus> GJR: depends upon user's verbosity settings
20:55:31 <Joshue> SF, the absence of the alt attribute will tricker heuristic evaluation/repair
20:55:44 <Ben_> GV: Agree, in high end AT, hopefully more broadly available by other through other efforts - hope we have good ARIA support before HTML5 goes out
20:55:56 <oedipus> marco zehe
20:56:13 <Ben_> SF: I think AT support so far is pretty good.
20:56:36 <Ben_> GJR: problem is that things like NVDA for a developer is "what is it's market share?"
20:56:39 <Joshue> s/tricker/trigger
20:57:49 <Ben_> MM: In my experience, it is not very accurate that developers are asking about market share. More of a priority to have an open source product that can be manipulated to address accessibilty issues than it is to have fixes included in closed source AT
20:58:20 <Ben_> JS: should talk about next meeting 
20:58:47 <Ben_> JS: either this friday or the following friday
20:59:07 <oedipus> GJR: NVDA is open to idea of hardware synthesizer drivers provided they don't have to do the programming -- i am trying to coordinate a google-group or sourceforge project to provide hardware synth drivers
20:59:20 <Ben_> MM: can I recommend that we attempt to finalize something (SXSW and CSUN coming up and need to respond in a timely fashion)
20:59:52 <Ben_> JS: agree. objection to meeting Friday at 10 Eastern
21:00:18 <oedipus> consult http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/Caucus
21:01:44 <oedipus> EST is UTC minus 5 until 2 am sunday when U.S.A. changes to daylight savintgs
21:01:49 <Zakim> -Matt_May
21:01:52 <Ben_> RESOLUTION: meet at noon Eastern Friday 6 March
21:03:22 <Joshue> Joshue has left #cg
21:07:22 <Laura> Why was the word MUST changed to SHOULD on "That alt="" WITHOUT an accompanying role="presentation" should trigger a non-critical warning recommending use of role="presentation" (but is still valid)." ?
21:07:52 <oedipus> 3. That the proper use of role="presentation" be taken from ARIA 1.0. 
21:07:52 <oedipus> 4. That the proper use of role="presentation" be taken from ARIA 1.0.
21:07:52 <oedipus> 5. An IMG without a role attribute is the equivalent of <IMG aria-role="image"> and REQUIRES the use of alt, labelledby, and/or LEGEND for validity.
21:07:52 <oedipus> 6. for content where role="presentation" is appropriate either alt="" or role="presentation" or both can be used.
21:07:52 <oedipus> 6A) That alt="" WITHOUT an accompanying role="presentation" should trigger a non-critical warning recommending use of role="presentation" (but is still valid). 
21:14:02 <Zakim> -Loretta_Guarino_Reid
21:14:04 <Zakim> -jeanne
21:14:09 <oedipus> GreggV is literally keeping us on the same page
21:14:17 <jeanne> jeanne has left #cg
21:15:01 <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/TextAlternativeProposal
21:15:47 <Zakim> -Stevef
21:16:15 <Zakim> -Gez_Lemon
21:16:17 <Laura> bye
21:16:22 <Zakim> -JR
21:16:25 <Zakim> -Gregg_Vanderheiden
21:16:26 <Zakim> -Janina
21:16:26 <Zakim> -Cooper
21:16:31 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
21:16:54 <Zakim> -Laura_Carlson
21:16:56 <Zakim> WAI_CG()2:30PM has ended
21:16:57 <Zakim> Attendees were Janina, Gregory_Rosmaita, Cooper, jeanne, Matt_May, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Gregg_Vanderheiden, JR, Ben_Caldwell, Stevef, Gez_Lemon, Laura_Carlson
21:17:34 <oedipus> michael, are you going to push the minutes?
21:18:33 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
21:18:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/04-cg-minutes.html MichaelC
21:19:25 <MichaelC> scribeOptions: -final
21:19:29 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
21:19:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/04-cg-minutes.html MichaelC
21:19:33 <MichaelC> rrsagent, bye
21:19:33 <RRSAgent> I see no action items