15:41:35 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rif
15:41:35 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/03-rif-irc
15:41:43 <csma> zakim, this will be rif
15:41:43 <Zakim> ok, csma; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 19 minutes
15:41:53 <csma> rrsagent, make log public
15:42:00 <csma> rrsagent, make minutes
15:42:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/03-rif-minutes.html csma
15:42:25 <csma> Meeting: RIF telecon 3 March 2009
15:42:33 <csma> Chair: Christian de Sainte Marie
15:43:01 <csma> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Mar/0005.html
15:43:35 <csma> csma has changed the topic to: 3 March RIF telecon; Agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Mar/0005.html
15:44:37 <csma> Regrets: DaveReynolds LeoraMorgenstern AdrianPaschke
15:45:20 <csma> Michael, will you scribe today?
15:46:43 <csma> Michael, are you here?
15:58:37 <ChrisW> ChrisW has joined #rif
15:58:55 <ChrisW> zakim, list agenda
15:58:55 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
15:58:57 <Zakim> 8. Safeness/Termination [from ChrisW]
15:58:57 <Zakim> 9. Lists... [from ChrisW]
15:58:59 <Zakim> 10. Test Cases [from ChrisW]
15:58:59 <Zakim> 11. AOB [from ChrisW]
15:59:14 <AdrianP> AdrianP has joined #rif
15:59:23 <csma> zakim, clear agenda
15:59:23 <Zakim> agenda cleared
15:59:30 <csma> item+ Admin
15:59:41 <csma> agendum+ Admin
15:59:50 <csma> agendum+ Liaisons
15:59:51 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:59:58 <Zakim> +[NRCC]
15:59:59 <csma> agendum+ F2F13
16:00:00 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
16:00:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/03-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:00:05 <csma> agendum+ Actions
16:00:06 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make logs public
16:00:16 <csma> agendum+ safeness
16:00:23 <csma> agendum+ List data type
16:00:30 <csma> agendum+ issue 80
16:00:37 <csma> agendum+ issue 92
16:00:38 <Harold> zakim, [NRCC] is me
16:00:40 <Zakim> +Harold; got it
16:00:42 <csma> agendum+ PS
16:00:45 <Zakim> +Sandro
16:00:48 <csma> agendum+ AOB
16:01:15 <ChrisWelty> ChrisWelty has joined #rif
16:01:21 <Zakim> +??P3
16:01:35 <csma> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:01:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see Harold, Sandro, ??P3
16:01:45 <csma> zakim, ??P3 is me
16:01:45 <Zakim> +csma; got it
16:01:54 <Zakim> +[IBM]
16:02:01 <ChrisWelty> zakim, ibm is temporarily me
16:02:01 <Zakim> +ChrisWelty; got it
16:02:22 <Zakim> +Michael_Kifer
16:02:33 <ChrisWelty> scribenick: Michael_Kifer
16:02:39 <ChrisWelty> Scribe: Michael_Kifer
16:02:57 <josb> josb has joined #rif
16:05:30 <Zakim> +??P8
16:05:46 <AdrianP> Zakim, ??P8 is me
16:05:46 <Zakim> +AdrianP; got it
16:07:02 <csma> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:07:02 <Zakim> On the phone I see Harold, Sandro, csma, ChrisWelty, Michael_Kifer, AdrianP
16:07:29 <AdrianP> Zakim, mute me
16:07:29 <Zakim> AdrianP should now be muted
16:07:34 <csma> next item
16:07:49 <Zakim> + +43.158.801.1aaaa
16:07:50 <csma> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Feb/att-0122/20090224-rif-minutes.html
16:08:14 <csma> PROPOSED: to accept the minutes of Febraury 24
16:08:38 <Michael_Kifer> minutes of Feb 24 accepted
16:08:47 <csma> RESOLVED; to accept the minutes of Feb 24 telecon
16:10:17 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has joined #rif
16:10:37 <csma> next item
16:10:50 <Zakim> +??P11
16:11:16 <Gary_Hallmark> Gary_Hallmark has joined #rif
16:11:58 <Zakim> +Gary
16:12:16 <ChrisWelty> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:12:16 <Zakim> On the phone I see Harold, Sandro, csma, ChrisWelty, Michael_Kifer, AdrianP (muted), josb, AxelPolleres, Gary
16:12:28 <csma> next item
16:14:44 <ChrisWelty> action-709: complete
16:14:44 <trackbot> ACTION-709 Put merged PS on agenda for Mar 3 notes added
16:17:31 <ChrisWelty> action-592: completed
16:17:31 <trackbot> ACTION-592 Open issue based on the White Board line: "What about methods -- Ignore" notes added
16:19:23 <csma> next item
16:20:00 <csma> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Core#Safeness
16:20:14 <AdrianP> Zakim, mute me
16:20:14 <Zakim> AdrianP was already muted, AdrianP
16:20:48 <csma> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Feb/0065.html
16:23:18 <Michael_Kifer> question is whether to take josb's definition or axel's, which is stricter
16:23:45 <ChrisWelty> axel: would prefer to have finiteness as well as safeness
16:24:28 <Michael_Kifer> csma: should safety be about termination or about implementability in dialects like PRD?
16:25:21 <josb> q+
16:25:40 <Michael_Kifer> axel: worried about systems like DLV (stable models), which do grounding. Therefore, safeness should guarantee that grounding is finite.
16:25:49 <josb> q-
16:26:48 <Michael_Kifer> axel: might go for 2 definitions: one general, like we have now, and another very strict one
16:27:11 <josb> daver probably has an opinion about this
16:32:00 <ChrisWelty> q+
16:33:36 <csma> ack Chris
16:35:59 <josb> q+
16:36:00 <AxelPolleres> the discussion is still about whether we want safeness for core that inplies FININTE models or not.
16:36:08 <ChrisWelty> jos, do you have an idea what DaveR's opinion is (more or less)?
16:36:20 <josb> he does not want finiteness
16:36:28 <AxelPolleres> s/FININTE/finite minimal/
16:36:43 <sandro> q+ to say I would call it a different dialect
16:36:58 <josb> q-
16:37:09 <csma> ack sandro
16:37:09 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to say I would call it a different dialect
16:37:15 <ChrisWelty> </chair>i'd be happy to leave safeness where it is, and not make it more strict<chair>
16:37:29 <Michael_Kifer> axel: strict condition is the common denominator
16:37:47 <josb> me too, but I don't have a strong opinion either way
16:38:38 <Michael_Kifer> sandro: we want just one safeness cond in core so that all engines will be able to interoperate through Core.
16:39:59 <josb> q+
16:41:09 <csma> ack josb
16:44:35 <ChrisWelty> Straw Poll: (+1) go with stricter safeness requiring finiteness, (0) don't care, (-1) stick with current safeness
16:45:30 <Michael_Kifer> csma: is there a constituency for less strict (termination)?
16:45:46 <AxelPolleres> All I say is: If we do not restrict finiteness in Core, we are on the safe side for ALL systems.
16:45:53 <josb> (-0.1)
16:45:54 <AxelPolleres> not more, not less.
16:46:01 <ChrisWelty> Straw Poll: (+1) go with stricter safeness requiring finiteness, (0) don't care, (-1) stick with current safeness
16:46:09 <Michael_Kifer> several: developers of interested systems (eg, DLV) should make an effort to become compliant.
16:46:10 <AxelPolleres> +1
16:46:18 <sandro> +0 I care, but don't know
16:46:20 <AdrianP> 0 (don't know yet)
16:46:33 <ChrisWelty> -1
16:46:34 <Harold> +0.75
16:47:02 <sandro> chris: -1 allows infinit, +1 disallow infinite
16:47:06 <Gary> -0.5
16:47:11 <Michael_Kifer> -0.5 (without finiteness)
16:47:20 <csma> 0 Icare but I do not know
16:48:31 <ChrisWelty> possible path forward: add section on finiteness to CORE safety, but label it "AT RISK"
16:48:46 <Michael_Kifer> sandro: use the currens (lenient) definition; add axel's restrictions and make them at risk
16:49:43 <AxelPolleres> +1 to add at risk!
16:52:54 <sandro> PROPOSAL: The issue of finiteness will be At Risk through CR, as we get implementor feedback.    We need to know who wants and/or doesn't want this limitation in Core.
16:53:42 <sandro> PROPOSAL: The issue of finiteness will be At Risk through CR, as we get implementor feedback.    We need to know who wants / doesn't want this limitation in Core.   (Safeness as defined by Jos not being in question.)
16:53:56 <csma> next item
16:56:23 <AxelPolleres> q+
16:56:57 <sandro> q+
16:57:03 <csma> ack axel
16:57:34 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath-functions/#sequence-functions
16:57:38 <Harold> These lists would not be (potentially non-ground) terms but  (always ground) built-in data.
16:57:47 <Michael_Kifer> csma: the lists in question are not Prolog-like lists, but a datatype, like xsd lists.
16:58:19 <AxelPolleres> I don't see datatypes as fitting with our current definition of "datatype"
16:58:38 <AxelPolleres> s/see datatypes/lists/
16:58:52 <Gary> it would be very useful to retrieve the multivalues of a frame slot as a list
16:59:20 <Harold> OWL used to have lists more general than built-in data; what about OWL 2?
17:00:16 <josb> They are!
17:00:50 <csma> q?
17:00:53 <sandro> q-
17:01:45 <Gary> xml schema doesn't support lists of lists, I think
17:02:33 <Harold> (often such flat lists are called sequences)
17:02:36 <AxelPolleres> Can we use rdf:List?s
17:03:16 <sandro> Yes, I'm very much in favor if (1) we can make it work (2) it wont slow us down too long.
17:03:24 <AxelPolleres> What are the implications for DTB?
17:03:35 <sandro> I'm looking at: http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath-functions/#sequence-functions
17:03:37 <csma> http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/#list-datatypes
17:04:24 <Michael_Kifer> why not go back  to the earlier effort and introduce list terms (after fixing)?
17:05:27 <sandro> sandro: I think for Core/PRD we need to disallow variables from lists....
17:05:27 <AxelPolleres> I think that terms with s dedicated/reserved list constructor function symbol would be the way to go.
17:05:36 <josb> I would imagine the only problem is if there are non-ground lists in the head
17:05:49 <sandro> (unbound variables, of course)
17:06:54 <Gary> I think the list methods are builtins (externals) and should inherit the same safeness as the other externals
17:06:58 <Harold> For lists as terms we had http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Core/List_Constructor and http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Core/List_Constructor-alt
17:08:00 <Gary> does anyone see how to bind a list to *all* the values of a multivalued frame slot?
17:08:34 <Harold> Gary, I think this would be a kind of aggregate.
17:08:48 <josb_> josb_ has joined #rif
17:09:04 <sandro> proposed: ACTION: Michael draft a proposal for lists that will work in Core (and other dialects)
17:09:46 <Harold> (In Prolog bagof, listof have been used to collect all elements from a query, which could retrieve all the values of a multivalued frame slot.)
17:09:53 <sandro> proposed: ACTION: kifer draft a proposal for lists that will (hopefull) work in Core (and other dialects)
17:10:03 <sandro> ACTION: kifer draft a proposal for lists that will (hopefully) work in Core (and other dialects)
17:10:04 <trackbot> Created ACTION-711 - Draft a proposal for lists that will (hopefully) work in Core (and other dialects) [on Michael Kifer - due 2009-03-10].
17:10:25 <josb> How about: no non-ground lists in the head
17:11:17 <sandro> works for me, Jos.
17:11:26 <csma> next item
17:11:34 <sandro> issue-80?
17:11:34 <trackbot> ISSUE-80 -- Shoudl we extend DTB to include more general builtins -- OPEN
17:11:34 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/80
17:12:31 <josb> q+
17:13:11 <AxelPolleres> I agree to have literal-no-equal should be symmetric.
17:13:53 <AxelPolleres> q+
17:13:55 <Michael_Kifer> csma: what is special about pred:LiteralEqual? Why don't we have the same problems with pred:LiteralNotEqual
17:14:54 <Michael_Kifer> jos: pred:LiteralEqual and pred:LiteralNotEqual should be complimentary. We just haven't defined them
17:15:46 <AxelPolleres> need to go, sorry, bye all! will read the notes on the outcomes of this and follow up per mail if I have additional opinions.
17:15:55 <csma> ack josb
17:16:02 <AxelPolleres> q-
17:16:03 <josb> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Mar/0022.html
17:16:14 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres
17:17:24 <Michael_Kifer> josb: XSD distinguishes betw identity and equality (eg, DateTime items can be equal because of different time zones, but they would not be identical)
17:17:49 <csma> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Feb/0128.html
17:17:56 <ChrisWelty> 1) Drop pred:literal-equal
17:17:56 <ChrisWelty> 2) Leave pred:literal-equal as is (redundant with RIF =)
17:17:56 <ChrisWelty> 3) Redefine pred:literal-equal to perform all the datatype specific equality tests including numeric, and remove those datatype specific tests from DTB.
17:18:39 <josb> I strongly prefer option 1)
17:18:58 <josb> I would object to 2) unless someone can make a very strong case
17:19:18 <AdrianP> option 1
17:19:55 <Gary> 1 or 3 but not 2
17:24:23 <Gary> 1^^int = 1^^float is inconsistent, right?  value spaces are disjoint
17:24:32 <josb> datetime-equal
17:25:28 <Michael_Kifer> +1 option1
17:26:07 <csma> which option do you support most? 1, 2 or 3
17:26:10 <sandro> right Gary
17:26:13 <Harold> 1
17:26:14 <josb> 1
17:26:24 <AdrianP> 1
17:26:29 <ChrisWelty> .9
17:26:38 <sandro> 1 i guess maybe maybe
17:27:03 <Gary> mild pref for 3
17:27:28 <ChrisWelty> object to option 1?
17:27:35 <ChrisWelty> none
17:27:41 <ChrisWelty> object to option 3?
17:27:44 <Michael_Kifer> option 3 is complicated
17:27:44 <ChrisWelty> none
17:28:08 <josb> and also drop literal-not-equal
17:28:20 <csma> PROPOSED: drop pred:literal-equal
17:29:56 <ChrisWelty> my understanding was that we would KEEP not-equal
17:30:06 <ChrisWelty> that wasn't part of the options 1-3
17:31:22 <josb> I don't understand why we would keep not-equal, but drop equal. Seems very awkward.
17:32:13 <Gary> I agree with Jos.  Keep both equal and not-equal, or neither
17:32:13 <ChrisWelty> zakim, list attendees
17:32:13 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Harold, Sandro, csma, ChrisWelty, Michael_Kifer, AdrianP, +43.158.801.1aaaa, josb, AxelPolleres, Gary
17:32:16 <Zakim> -josb
17:32:18 <Zakim> -Harold
17:32:20 <AdrianP> bye
17:32:23 <Zakim> -AdrianP
17:32:26 <Zakim> -Gary
17:32:30 <ChrisWelty> rrsagent, make minutes
17:32:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/03-rif-minutes.html ChrisWelty
17:32:31 <csma> zakim, list attendees
17:32:31 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Harold, Sandro, csma, ChrisWelty, Michael_Kifer, AdrianP, +43.158.801.1aaaa, josb, AxelPolleres, Gary
17:32:40 <csma> rrsagent, make minutes
17:32:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/03-rif-minutes.html csma
17:32:56 <ChrisWelty> zakim, who is on the phone?
17:32:56 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro, csma, ChrisWelty, Michael_Kifer
17:34:51 <Zakim> -Michael_Kifer
17:38:13 <Zakim> -ChrisWelty
17:38:14 <Zakim> -Sandro
17:38:15 <Zakim> -csma
17:38:16 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
17:38:17 <Zakim> Attendees were Harold, Sandro, csma, ChrisWelty, Michael_Kifer, AdrianP, +43.158.801.1aaaa, josb, AxelPolleres, Gary
17:43:41 <csma> csma has left #rif
18:02:31 <Gary_Hallmark> Gary_Hallmark has joined #rif