IRC log of rif on 2009-03-03

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:41:35 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rif
15:41:35 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/03-rif-irc
15:41:43 [csma]
zakim, this will be rif
15:41:43 [Zakim]
ok, csma; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 19 minutes
15:41:53 [csma]
rrsagent, make log public
15:42:00 [csma]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:42:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/03-rif-minutes.html csma
15:42:25 [csma]
Meeting: RIF telecon 3 March 2009
15:42:33 [csma]
Chair: Christian de Sainte Marie
15:43:01 [csma]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Mar/0005.html
15:43:35 [csma]
csma has changed the topic to: 3 March RIF telecon; Agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Mar/0005.html
15:44:37 [csma]
Regrets: DaveReynolds LeoraMorgenstern AdrianPaschke
15:45:20 [csma]
Michael, will you scribe today?
15:46:43 [csma]
Michael, are you here?
15:58:37 [ChrisW]
ChrisW has joined #rif
15:58:55 [ChrisW]
zakim, list agenda
15:58:55 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
15:58:57 [Zakim]
8. Safeness/Termination [from ChrisW]
15:58:57 [Zakim]
9. Lists... [from ChrisW]
15:58:59 [Zakim]
10. Test Cases [from ChrisW]
15:58:59 [Zakim]
11. AOB [from ChrisW]
15:59:14 [AdrianP]
AdrianP has joined #rif
15:59:23 [csma]
zakim, clear agenda
15:59:23 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
15:59:30 [csma]
item+ Admin
15:59:41 [csma]
agendum+ Admin
15:59:50 [csma]
agendum+ Liaisons
15:59:51 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:59:58 [Zakim]
+[NRCC]
15:59:59 [csma]
agendum+ F2F13
16:00:00 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:00:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/03-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:00:05 [csma]
agendum+ Actions
16:00:06 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make logs public
16:00:16 [csma]
agendum+ safeness
16:00:23 [csma]
agendum+ List data type
16:00:30 [csma]
agendum+ issue 80
16:00:37 [csma]
agendum+ issue 92
16:00:38 [Harold]
zakim, [NRCC] is me
16:00:40 [Zakim]
+Harold; got it
16:00:42 [csma]
agendum+ PS
16:00:45 [Zakim]
+Sandro
16:00:48 [csma]
agendum+ AOB
16:01:15 [ChrisWelty]
ChrisWelty has joined #rif
16:01:21 [Zakim]
+??P3
16:01:35 [csma]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:01:35 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Harold, Sandro, ??P3
16:01:45 [csma]
zakim, ??P3 is me
16:01:45 [Zakim]
+csma; got it
16:01:54 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
16:02:01 [ChrisWelty]
zakim, ibm is temporarily me
16:02:01 [Zakim]
+ChrisWelty; got it
16:02:22 [Zakim]
+Michael_Kifer
16:02:33 [ChrisWelty]
scribenick: Michael_Kifer
16:02:39 [ChrisWelty]
Scribe: Michael_Kifer
16:02:57 [josb]
josb has joined #rif
16:05:30 [Zakim]
+??P8
16:05:46 [AdrianP]
Zakim, ??P8 is me
16:05:46 [Zakim]
+AdrianP; got it
16:07:02 [csma]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:07:02 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Harold, Sandro, csma, ChrisWelty, Michael_Kifer, AdrianP
16:07:29 [AdrianP]
Zakim, mute me
16:07:29 [Zakim]
AdrianP should now be muted
16:07:34 [csma]
next item
16:07:49 [Zakim]
+ +43.158.801.1aaaa
16:07:50 [csma]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Feb/att-0122/20090224-rif-minutes.html
16:08:14 [csma]
PROPOSED: to accept the minutes of Febraury 24
16:08:38 [Michael_Kifer]
minutes of Feb 24 accepted
16:08:47 [csma]
RESOLVED; to accept the minutes of Feb 24 telecon
16:09:35 [csma]
next item
16:10:17 [AxelPolleres]
AxelPolleres has joined #rif
16:10:37 [csma]
next item
16:10:50 [Zakim]
+??P11
16:11:16 [Gary_Hallmark]
Gary_Hallmark has joined #rif
16:11:58 [Zakim]
+Gary
16:12:16 [ChrisWelty]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:12:16 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Harold, Sandro, csma, ChrisWelty, Michael_Kifer, AdrianP (muted), josb, AxelPolleres, Gary
16:12:28 [csma]
next item
16:14:44 [ChrisWelty]
action-709: complete
16:14:44 [trackbot]
ACTION-709 Put merged PS on agenda for Mar 3 notes added
16:17:31 [ChrisWelty]
action-592: completed
16:17:31 [trackbot]
ACTION-592 Open issue based on the White Board line: "What about methods -- Ignore" notes added
16:19:23 [csma]
next item
16:20:00 [csma]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Core#Safeness
16:20:14 [AdrianP]
Zakim, mute me
16:20:14 [Zakim]
AdrianP was already muted, AdrianP
16:20:48 [csma]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Feb/0065.html
16:23:18 [Michael_Kifer]
question is whether to take josb's definition or axel's, which is stricter
16:23:45 [ChrisWelty]
axel: would prefer to have finiteness as well as safeness
16:24:28 [Michael_Kifer]
csma: should safety be about termination or about implementability in dialects like PRD?
16:25:21 [josb]
q+
16:25:40 [Michael_Kifer]
axel: worried about systems like DLV (stable models), which do grounding. Therefore, safeness should guarantee that grounding is finite.
16:25:49 [josb]
q-
16:26:48 [Michael_Kifer]
axel: might go for 2 definitions: one general, like we have now, and another very strict one
16:27:11 [josb]
daver probably has an opinion about this
16:32:00 [ChrisWelty]
q+
16:33:36 [csma]
ack Chris
16:35:59 [josb]
q+
16:36:00 [AxelPolleres]
the discussion is still about whether we want safeness for core that inplies FININTE models or not.
16:36:08 [ChrisWelty]
jos, do you have an idea what DaveR's opinion is (more or less)?
16:36:20 [josb]
he does not want finiteness
16:36:28 [AxelPolleres]
s/FININTE/finite minimal/
16:36:43 [sandro]
q+ to say I would call it a different dialect
16:36:58 [josb]
q-
16:37:09 [csma]
ack sandro
16:37:09 [Zakim]
sandro, you wanted to say I would call it a different dialect
16:37:15 [ChrisWelty]
</chair>i'd be happy to leave safeness where it is, and not make it more strict<chair>
16:37:29 [Michael_Kifer]
axel: strict condition is the common denominator
16:37:47 [josb]
me too, but I don't have a strong opinion either way
16:38:38 [Michael_Kifer]
sandro: we want just one safeness cond in core so that all engines will be able to interoperate through Core.
16:39:59 [josb]
q+
16:41:09 [csma]
ack josb
16:44:35 [ChrisWelty]
Straw Poll: (+1) go with stricter safeness requiring finiteness, (0) don't care, (-1) stick with current safeness
16:45:30 [Michael_Kifer]
csma: is there a constituency for less strict (termination)?
16:45:46 [AxelPolleres]
All I say is: If we do not restrict finiteness in Core, we are on the safe side for ALL systems.
16:45:53 [josb]
(-0.1)
16:45:54 [AxelPolleres]
not more, not less.
16:46:01 [ChrisWelty]
Straw Poll: (+1) go with stricter safeness requiring finiteness, (0) don't care, (-1) stick with current safeness
16:46:09 [Michael_Kifer]
several: developers of interested systems (eg, DLV) should make an effort to become compliant.
16:46:10 [AxelPolleres]
+1
16:46:18 [sandro]
+0 I care, but don't know
16:46:20 [AdrianP]
0 (don't know yet)
16:46:33 [ChrisWelty]
-1
16:46:34 [Harold]
+0.75
16:47:06 [Gary]
-0.5
16:47:11 [Michael_Kifer]
-0.5 (without finiteness)
16:47:20 [csma]
0 Icare but I do not know
16:48:31 [ChrisWelty]
possible path forward: add section on finiteness to CORE safety, but label it "AT RISK"
16:48:46 [Michael_Kifer]
sandro: use the currens (lenient) definition; add axel's restrictions and make them at risk
16:49:43 [AxelPolleres]
+1 to add at risk!
16:52:54 [sandro]
PROPOSAL: The issue of finiteness will be At Risk through CR, as we get implementor feedback. We need to know who wants and/or doesn't want this limitation in Core.
16:53:42 [sandro]
PROPOSAL: The issue of finiteness will be At Risk through CR, as we get implementor feedback. We need to know who wants / doesn't want this limitation in Core. (Safeness as defined by Jos not being in question.)
16:53:56 [csma]
next item
16:56:23 [AxelPolleres]
q+
16:56:57 [sandro]
q+
16:57:03 [csma]
ack axel
16:57:34 [sandro]
http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath-functions/#sequence-functions
16:57:38 [Harold]
These lists would not be (potentially non-ground) terms but (always ground) built-in data.
16:57:47 [Michael_Kifer]
csma: the lists in question are not Prolog-like lists, but a datatype, like xsd lists.
16:58:19 [AxelPolleres]
I don't see datatypes as fitting with our current definition of "datatype"
16:58:38 [AxelPolleres]
s/see datatypes/lists/
16:58:52 [Gary]
it would be very useful to retrieve the multivalues of a frame slot as a list
16:59:20 [Harold]
OWL used to have lists more general than built-in data; what about OWL 2?
17:00:16 [josb]
They are!
17:00:50 [csma]
q?
17:00:53 [sandro]
q-
17:01:45 [Gary]
xml schema doesn't support lists of lists, I think
17:02:33 [Harold]
(often such flat lists are called sequences)
17:02:36 [AxelPolleres]
Can we use rdf:List?s
17:03:16 [sandro]
Yes, I'm very much in favor if (1) we can make it work (2) it wont slow us down too long.
17:03:24 [AxelPolleres]
What are the implications for DTB?
17:03:35 [sandro]
I'm looking at: http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath-functions/#sequence-functions
17:03:37 [csma]
http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/#list-datatypes
17:04:24 [Michael_Kifer]
why not go back to the earlier effort and introduce list terms (after fixing)?
17:05:27 [sandro]
sandro: I think for Core/PRD we need to disallow variables from lists....
17:05:27 [AxelPolleres]
I think that terms with s dedicated/reserved list constructor function symbol would be the way to go.
17:05:36 [josb]
I would imagine the only problem is if there are non-ground lists in the head
17:05:49 [sandro]
(unbound variables, of course)
17:06:54 [Gary]
I think the list methods are builtins (externals) and should inherit the same safeness as the other externals
17:06:58 [Harold]
For lists as terms we had http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Core/List_Constructor and http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Core/List_Constructor-alt
17:08:00 [Gary]
does anyone see how to bind a list to *all* the values of a multivalued frame slot?
17:08:34 [Harold]
Gary, I think this would be a kind of aggregate.
17:08:48 [josb_]
josb_ has joined #rif
17:09:04 [sandro]
proposed: ACTION: Michael draft a proposal for lists that will work in Core (and other dialects)
17:09:46 [Harold]
(In Prolog bagof, listof have been used to collect all elements from a query, which could retrieve all the values of a multivalued frame slot.)
17:09:53 [sandro]
proposed: ACTION: kifer draft a proposal for lists that will (hopefull) work in Core (and other dialects)
17:10:03 [sandro]
ACTION: kifer draft a proposal for lists that will (hopefully) work in Core (and other dialects)
17:10:04 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-711 - Draft a proposal for lists that will (hopefully) work in Core (and other dialects) [on Michael Kifer - due 2009-03-10].
17:10:25 [josb]
How about: no non-ground lists in the head
17:11:17 [sandro]
works for me, Jos.
17:11:26 [csma]
next item
17:11:34 [sandro]
issue-80?
17:11:34 [trackbot]
ISSUE-80 -- Shoudl we extend DTB to include more general builtins -- OPEN
17:11:34 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/80
17:12:31 [josb]
q+
17:13:11 [AxelPolleres]
I agree to have literal-no-equal should be symmetric.
17:13:53 [AxelPolleres]
q+
17:13:55 [Michael_Kifer]
csma: what is special about pred:LiteralEqual? Why don't we have the same problems with pred:LiteralNotEqual
17:14:54 [Michael_Kifer]
jos: pred:LiteralEqual and pred:LiteralNotEqual should be complimentary. We just haven't defined them
17:15:46 [AxelPolleres]
need to go, sorry, bye all! will read the notes on the outcomes of this and follow up per mail if I have additional opinions.
17:15:55 [csma]
ack josb
17:16:02 [AxelPolleres]
q-
17:16:03 [josb]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Mar/0022.html
17:16:14 [Zakim]
-AxelPolleres
17:17:24 [Michael_Kifer]
josb: XSD distinguishes betw identity and equality (eg, DateTime items can be equal because of different time zones, but they would not be identical)
17:17:49 [csma]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Feb/0128.html
17:17:56 [ChrisWelty]
1) Drop pred:literal-equal
17:17:56 [ChrisWelty]
2) Leave pred:literal-equal as is (redundant with RIF =)
17:17:56 [ChrisWelty]
3) Redefine pred:literal-equal to perform all the datatype specific equality tests including numeric, and remove those datatype specific tests from DTB.
17:18:39 [josb]
I strongly prefer option 1)
17:18:58 [josb]
I would object to 2) unless someone can make a very strong case
17:19:18 [AdrianP]
option 1
17:19:55 [Gary]
1 or 3 but not 2
17:24:23 [Gary]
1^^int = 1^^float is inconsistent, right? value spaces are disjoint
17:24:32 [josb]
datetime-equal
17:25:28 [Michael_Kifer]
+1 option1
17:26:07 [csma]
which option do you support most? 1, 2 or 3
17:26:10 [sandro]
right Gary
17:26:13 [Harold]
1
17:26:14 [josb]
1
17:26:24 [AdrianP]
1
17:26:29 [ChrisWelty]
.9
17:26:38 [sandro]
1 i guess maybe maybe
17:27:03 [Gary]
mild pref for 3
17:27:28 [ChrisWelty]
object to option 1?
17:27:35 [ChrisWelty]
none
17:27:41 [ChrisWelty]
object to option 3?
17:27:44 [Michael_Kifer]
option 3 is complicated
17:27:44 [ChrisWelty]
none
17:28:08 [josb]
and also drop literal-not-equal
17:28:20 [csma]
PROPOSED: drop pred:literal-equal
17:29:56 [ChrisWelty]
my understanding was that we would KEEP not-equal
17:30:06 [ChrisWelty]
that wasn't part of the options 1-3
17:31:22 [josb]
I don't understand why we would keep not-equal, but drop equal. Seems very awkward.
17:32:13 [Gary]
I agree with Jos. Keep both equal and not-equal, or neither
17:32:13 [ChrisWelty]
zakim, list attendees
17:32:13 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Harold, Sandro, csma, ChrisWelty, Michael_Kifer, AdrianP, +43.158.801.1aaaa, josb, AxelPolleres, Gary
17:32:16 [Zakim]
-josb
17:32:18 [Zakim]
-Harold
17:32:20 [AdrianP]
bye
17:32:23 [Zakim]
-AdrianP
17:32:26 [Zakim]
-Gary
17:32:30 [ChrisWelty]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:32:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/03-rif-minutes.html ChrisWelty
17:32:31 [csma]
zakim, list attendees
17:32:31 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Harold, Sandro, csma, ChrisWelty, Michael_Kifer, AdrianP, +43.158.801.1aaaa, josb, AxelPolleres, Gary
17:32:40 [csma]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:32:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/03-rif-minutes.html csma
17:32:56 [ChrisWelty]
zakim, who is on the phone?
17:32:56 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Sandro, csma, ChrisWelty, Michael_Kifer
17:34:51 [Zakim]
-Michael_Kifer
17:38:13 [Zakim]
-ChrisWelty
17:38:14 [Zakim]
-Sandro
17:38:15 [Zakim]
-csma
17:38:16 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
17:38:17 [Zakim]
Attendees were Harold, Sandro, csma, ChrisWelty, Michael_Kifer, AdrianP, +43.158.801.1aaaa, josb, AxelPolleres, Gary
17:43:41 [csma]
csma has left #rif
18:02:31 [Gary_Hallmark]
Gary_Hallmark has joined #rif