IRC log of svg on 2009-03-02

Timestamps are in UTC.

19:30:54 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #svg
19:30:54 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/02-svg-irc
19:30:56 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
19:30:58 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
19:30:58 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot, I see GA_SVGWG()2:30PM already started
19:30:59 [trackbot]
Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
19:30:59 [trackbot]
Date: 02 March 2009
19:31:21 [jwatt]
jwatt has joined #svg
19:32:19 [Zakim]
+??P2
19:32:26 [ed_]
Zakim, ??P2 is me
19:32:26 [Zakim]
+ed_; got it
19:33:01 [jwatt]
Zakim: ??P1 in me
19:33:14 [jwatt]
Zakim, ??P1 in me
19:33:14 [Zakim]
I don't understand '??P1 in me', jwatt
19:33:21 [jwatt]
so sad
19:33:42 [heycam]
Zakim, code?
19:33:42 [Zakim]
the conference code is 7841 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), heycam
19:35:00 [Zakim]
+??P3
19:35:07 [heycam]
Zakim, ??P3 is me
19:35:07 [Zakim]
+heycam; got it
19:35:27 [heycam]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
19:35:27 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P1, ed_, heycam
19:36:04 [ed_]
Zakim, ??P1 is jwatt
19:36:04 [Zakim]
+jwatt; got it
19:36:22 [heycam]
Chair: Cameron
19:36:25 [heycam]
Regrets: Chris
19:37:55 [Zakim]
+Shepazu
19:38:30 [jwatt]
ah, ta
19:45:53 [heycam]
Scribe: Jonathan
19:45:56 [heycam]
ScribeNick: jwatt
19:47:03 [heycam]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/0186.html
19:47:11 [Zakim]
+??P4
19:47:20 [anthony]
Zakim, ??4 is me
19:47:20 [Zakim]
sorry, anthony, I do not recognize a party named '??4'
19:47:29 [jwatt]
topic: SVG in text/html
19:47:59 [heycam]
http://www.w3.org/mid/20090225231009.GD22306@arc.mcc.id.au
19:48:45 [jwatt]
CM: I misread part of the text in HTML5 in that email
19:49:04 [jwatt]
... about the xmlns attribute
19:49:41 [jwatt]
... I thought you needed to include the xmlns attribute to make it conforming
19:50:04 [jwatt]
... but actually you can omit it, or else specify it with the correct value
19:50:15 [jwatt]
... only then is in conforming
19:50:23 [jwatt]
s/in/is/
19:51:38 [heycam]
s/then.*/then is it conforming/
19:52:55 [jwatt]
... to be consistent with our comments on the xmlns:xlink, we would want it to be a parse error if omitted
19:53:04 [jwatt]
JW: yeah, I think that would be better
19:53:10 [heycam]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG_in_text-html_2009
19:53:18 [ed_]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Talk:SVG_in_text-html_2009
19:53:39 [jwatt]
ED: I added a bunch of comments on the wiki talk page
19:53:48 [jwatt]
... one on the xlink
19:54:20 [ed_]
There are SVG images with xmlns:xlink="&ns_XLink;" commonly produced by Illustrator, do we want to break those? Relates to the point about xmlns:xlink and breaking on bogus values.
19:54:48 [jwatt]
DS: but that's not bogus
19:55:00 [jwatt]
... if it treats it as a macro, the parser never sees that
19:55:35 [jwatt]
ED: but you'd need to define it in the HTML code
19:55:48 [jwatt]
DS: okay in this case it is bogus, right
19:56:23 [jwatt]
CM: I don't think that newer versions of Illustrator do that
19:56:57 [jwatt]
DS: I think that's right, it's an old practice
19:58:56 [ed_]
first point on http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Talk:SVG_in_text-html_2009
20:04:00 [jwatt]
ED: we may not need to ask for unquoted attributes etc. to be non-conforming, since authors could just validate their content as XHTML+SVG to get those warnings
20:05:04 [jwatt]
DS: I don't think that solves the problem - what if their is some HTML that doesn't validate as XHTML but that has some SVG in it
20:05:32 [jwatt]
... it also implies two different tokenizing models
20:06:52 [jwatt]
... I guess I'm wordering since the tokenizer in HTML5 does case-folding, but I guess in XHTML it does not
20:06:56 [jwatt]
CM: yes
20:09:12 [jwatt]
DS: are we going to see the case where inline SVG doesn't work because of whether the HTML is served as text/html or XHTML?
20:10:44 [jwatt]
CM: as long as you use the XML compatible syntax in HTML, I can't think of anything specific that would break like that
20:11:57 [jwatt]
DS: if you're serving documents for IE as text/html, but serving to everyone else as XML, then you may not be able to predict that your content will work
20:13:02 [jwatt]
... maybe scripts will break due to changes to the HTML parts of the DOM tree?
20:14:16 [jwatt]
... I'm not sure this is something we can solve
20:14:38 [jwatt]
... we maybe need to just keep talking to the HTML WG about this
20:17:01 [jwatt]
ED: so are we going to still ask for the xmlns attributes to be required for conformance?
20:17:08 [jwatt]
DS: I think we should
20:18:00 [jwatt]
ED: so moving on, should we go with all lowercase attributes in future?
20:18:10 [jwatt]
DS: I think we should for two reasons
20:18:57 [jwatt]
... it makes writing SVG as XML or text/html easier
20:19:26 [jwatt]
... and since CSS and SVG are converging on a number of features, we should be as CSS friendly as we can
20:19:30 [jwatt]
ED: yes
20:19:36 [jwatt]
... we should add that to our email
20:21:08 [jwatt]
CM: for element names that don't clash, case insensitivity of CSS selectors shouldn't be a problem
20:22:03 [jwatt]
... I worry about consistency though - e.g. if we introduce a new filter primitive element
20:22:28 [jwatt]
... it would be a pain to remember which are lowercase and which are uppercase
20:23:27 [jwatt]
DS: I think we should certainly do it for attributes
20:26:26 [jwatt]
ED: so the third point
20:26:57 [shepazu]
for casing elements, I don't have a strong opinion, but we should definitely avoid name clashes... even though namespaces can solve the technical part, it can still be confusing for authors
20:27:51 [shepazu]
I also think that going forward, we should consider allowing geometric attributes to be styled (and animated) by CSS... things like x, y, width, and height
20:29:18 [jwatt]
ED: ...
20:29:39 [jwatt]
ED: fourth point: not parsing the contents of SVG <title> as HTML
20:31:22 [jwatt]
CM: we are agreed on just having plain text inside
20:34:05 [jwatt]
ED: so sixth point: xml declaration encoding detection when the root element is <svg>
20:34:41 [jwatt]
... I was asked for numbers on the number of SVG documents that that have characters outside the win-1252 range
20:35:15 [jwatt]
s/fourth point/fifth point/
20:36:06 [jwatt]
CM: so you're saying that people won't have the xml declaration if it's UTF-8
20:38:39 [ed_]
<svg><b>foo
20:40:08 [ed_]
<svg></svg>foo
20:41:02 [jwatt]
ED: fifth point: non-SVG in SVG, when SVG is the root, but with our changes to say that there is no implied <html> and <body> inserted in - the non-SVG would break out back to the HTML, but there would then be no HTML to break to
20:41:10 [heycam]
<svg><b>foo</b></svg>
20:41:13 [jwatt]
CM: you can still have well formed XML
20:41:33 [ed_]
s/fifth/seventh/
20:41:53 [jwatt]
... but you'd still need somewhere for it to be a child of
20:44:04 [jwatt]
CM: I think we're going to have to take some of these to the mailing list to discuss further
20:44:14 [jwatt]
... we should get other things done just now
20:57:23 [heycam]
ACTION: Erik to move his seven points to the main text/html proposal wiki page
20:57:23 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2483 - Move his seven points to the main text/html proposal wiki page [on Erik Dahlström - due 2009-03-09].
20:58:14 [jwatt]
CM: CSS transforms
20:58:21 [heycam]
s/CM/Topic/
20:59:14 [anthony]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/CSS-Transforms-Review
21:00:48 [heycam]
DS: i'll send that in today
21:04:47 [Zakim]
-jwatt
21:04:50 [Zakim]
-heycam
21:04:51 [Zakim]
-ed_
21:04:53 [Zakim]
-??P4
21:05:02 [Zakim]
-Shepazu
21:05:04 [Zakim]
GA_SVGWG()2:30PM has ended
21:05:05 [Zakim]
Attendees were ed_, heycam, jwatt, Shepazu
21:58:51 [heycam]
heycam has joined #svg
21:59:57 [heycam]
RRSAgent, make minutes
21:59:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/02-svg-minutes.html heycam
22:00:24 [shepazu]
heycam: I have a request for your syndication script
22:00:34 [heycam]
then i can visit http://www.w3.org/2009/03/02-svg-minutes.html,text to get a text version of the minutes
22:00:52 [heycam]
copy the contents of that into a mail to public-svg-wg, and also link to the html minutes page
22:01:00 [heycam]
shepazu, yes?
22:02:54 [heycam]
jwatt, one of the reasons we send a plain text copy of the minutes to the list is so that tracker can pick up on any ACTION-* etc. identifiers we mention
22:05:16 [shepazu]
heycam: can you change the bit that says "News items syndicated from svg.org." to just say "News items syndicated from feeds." ?
22:06:10 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #svg
22:06:21 [shepazu]
Im trying to remove all references to svg.org, since that guy is refusing to play ball with the domain name... no need to give him an incentive to sell it for a higher price
22:06:26 [heycam]
yup ok
22:06:30 [shepazu]
thanks
22:07:40 [anthony]
how much does he want for it?
22:07:49 [shepazu]
he won't say
22:07:58 [anthony]
what a punk
22:08:08 [anthony]
perhaps I should make him an offer he can't refuse...
22:08:39 [shepazu]
but basically, he is being cagey about the whole thing...
22:09:07 [shepazu]
oh, I guess the script should also remove links to svg.org, if possible
22:09:30 [heycam]
that might prevent viewing of the whole story, though
22:09:47 [shepazu]
actually... since svg.org is down (again), maybe we should just remove that syndication
22:10:04 [heycam]
oh no wonder the script isn't finishing :)
22:10:22 [shepazu]
yeah, we need to get planetsvg's feed going
22:10:24 [heycam]
so do you want me to turn off the script?
22:10:33 [shepazu]
yeah, I think that's best
22:11:00 [heycam]
should i check in a version of /Graphics/SVG/Overview.html without the news items in it?
22:11:50 [shepazu]
see, when there are links to svg.org on the w3c site, it drives up svg.org's pagerank, thus giving him a disincentive to be reasonable about passing it on to the community
22:12:00 [shepazu]
since he could sell it
22:12:16 [shepazu]
without that, it will drop again in a few months
22:12:31 [shepazu]
heycam: yeah, go ahead
22:12:58 [shepazu]
we'll start again when planetsvg is up with a feed
22:17:59 [heycam]
committed
22:20:40 [shepazu]
hmmm... looks pretty barren
22:20:51 [shepazu]
maybe I'll manually add some news items
22:21:04 [heycam]
yeah ok =)
22:21:15 [heycam]
so just edit Overview.html directly and ignore the template file
22:21:56 [shepazu]
ok
22:22:40 [shepazu]
it's worth noting that SVG 1.2 Tiny was released, which was not in the most recent page
22:23:18 [heycam]
yes that probably is noteworthy!
22:28:34 [heycam]
interesting
22:28:58 [heycam]
guess that means w3c does indeed have a high link status / pagerank / whatever
22:32:24 [shepazu]
and that more people, or those with higher pagerank, are now linking to the w3c site
23:02:54 [shepazu]
heycam: is your script still running?
23:03:02 [shepazu]
because the feed is back
23:03:16 [heycam]
o_O
23:03:18 [heycam]
i thought i disabled it
23:04:40 [heycam]
hmm
23:05:39 [heycam]
it is commented out from my crontab
23:05:56 [heycam]
i'll revert the page and see if it runs again (it used to scheduled to run at 24 mins past the hour)
23:07:36 [heycam]
ok reverted; let's see what happens
23:17:06 [heycam]
jwatt, http://www.w3.org/mid/20090302231137.GB17647@arc.mcc.id.au
23:31:02 [heycam]
RRSAgent, bye
23:31:02 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/02-svg-actions.rdf :
23:31:02 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Erik to move his seven points to the main text/html proposal wiki page [1]
23:31:02 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/02-svg-irc#T20-57-23