IRC log of ua on 2009-02-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:38:27 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
17:38:27 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-ua-irc
17:39:01 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, set logs public
17:39:14 [AllanJ]
zakim. this will be wai_u
17:39:23 [AllanJ]
zakim, this will be wai_u
17:39:23 [Zakim]
ok, AllanJ; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 21 minutes
17:42:26 [AllanJ]
Title: UAWG telecon
17:43:58 [AllanJ]
Chair: Jim Allan
17:44:22 [AllanJ]
regrets: Judy, Jan, Alan
17:44:42 [AllanJ]
Agenda+ Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?
17:45:15 [AllanJ]
Agenda+ discussion of accessibility conflicts in user agents, Cynthia Shelly, Microsoft Senior Accessibility Strategist
17:45:33 [AllanJ]
Agenda+ Survey Results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090223/
17:45:46 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
17:46:36 [jeanne]
zakim, this will be WAI-UA
17:46:36 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, jeanne
17:46:45 [jeanne]
zakim, this will be WAI_UA
17:46:45 [Zakim]
ok, jeanne; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 14 minutes
17:46:59 [jeanne]
zakim, ping me in 10 minutes
17:46:59 [Zakim]
ok, jeanne
17:47:48 [AllanJ]
agenda+ 'Alert' proposal - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JanMar/0035.html
17:48:10 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make logs public
17:48:18 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:48:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-ua-minutes.html jeanne
17:51:56 [KFord]
KFord has joined #ua
17:53:00 [KFord]
trackbot, start meeting
17:53:02 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
17:53:04 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
17:53:05 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
17:53:05 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
17:53:05 [trackbot]
Date: 26 February 2009
17:53:48 [KFord]
Chair: Jim Allan
17:55:18 [KFord]
Agenda+ Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?
17:56:50 [jeanne]
regrets+ DavidP, JanR
17:56:58 [mhakkinen]
mhakkinen has joined #ua
17:56:59 [Zakim]
jeanne, you asked to be pinged at this time
17:57:02 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
17:57:09 [Zakim]
+AllanJ
17:57:19 [Henny]
Henny has joined #ua
17:57:27 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
17:57:37 [mhakkinen]
i am on another call for about 10 minutes. i can pick up scribing once i join, if needed.
17:57:57 [jeanne]
zakim, code?
17:57:57 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jeanne
17:58:05 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
17:58:27 [jeanne]
zakim, [Micr is kford
17:58:27 [Zakim]
+kford; got it
17:58:57 [Zakim]
+ +2
17:59:24 [jeanne]
zakim, +2 is Henny
17:59:24 [Zakim]
+Henny; got it
18:01:00 [sharper]
sharper has joined #ua
18:01:47 [AllanJ]
zakim, agenda ?
18:01:47 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
18:01:48 [Zakim]
1. Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)? [from AllanJ]
18:01:51 [Zakim]
2. discussion of accessibility conflicts in user agents, Cynthia Shelly, Microsoft Senior Accessibility Strategist [from AllanJ]
18:01:54 [Zakim]
3. Survey Results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090223/ [from AllanJ]
18:01:55 [Zakim]
4. 'Alert' proposal - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JanMar/0035.html [from AllanJ]
18:01:58 [Zakim]
5. Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)? [from KFord]
18:02:06 [Zakim]
+??P5
18:02:13 [jeanne]
zakim, drop item 5
18:02:13 [Zakim]
agendum 5, Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?, dropped
18:02:19 [sharper]
zakim, ??P5 is sharper
18:02:19 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
18:03:54 [Zakim]
+??P6
18:04:55 [jeanne]
zakim, who is here?
18:04:55 [Zakim]
On the phone I see AllanJ, kford, Jeanne, Henny, sharper, ??P6
18:04:56 [Zakim]
On IRC I see sharper, Henny, mhakkinen, KFord, jeanne, RRSAgent, Zakim, AllanJ, trackbot
18:04:57 [KFord]
zakim take up agenda 1
18:05:58 [jeanne]
zakim, ??P6 is Cynthia_Shelly(visiting)
18:05:58 [Zakim]
+Cynthia_Shelly(visiting); got it
18:07:02 [jeanne]
zakim, close this item
18:07:02 [Zakim]
agendum 1 closed
18:07:03 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:07:05 [Zakim]
2. discussion of accessibility conflicts in user agents, Cynthia Shelly, Microsoft Senior Accessibility Strategist [from AllanJ]
18:07:48 [cyns]
cyns has joined #ua
18:08:01 [jeanne]
zakim, take up next item
18:08:01 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "discussion of accessibility conflicts in user agents, Cynthia Shelly, Microsoft Senior Accessibility Strategist" taken up [from AllanJ]
18:08:03 [KFord]
agenda+ WAI ARIA Last Call
18:08:44 [KFord]
CS talking about CSS outline issue. One option is none, which turns off outlines.
18:08:55 [KFord]
IE8 supports this as does FF.
18:09:05 [KFord]
It appears to be an issue in the CSS spec.
18:09:11 [Zakim]
+Mark_Hakkinen
18:09:41 [KFord]
This has the potential to cause accessibility conflicts.
18:09:58 [KFord]
CS: What does your group think.
18:11:48 [KFord]
CS: Another reason this concerns me is that this interferes with an OS accessibility featurs, namely focus rects.
18:12:00 [KFord]
s/featurs/features
18:12:31 [KFord]
JA: I went to wcag 2 and they have a success criteria around this at level AA. They don't necessarily say don't turn this off.
18:12:46 [KFord]
q+
18:13:30 [KFord]
JA: I think there are a lot of options, like setting default font and such. Maybe even creating your own CSS.
18:13:31 [cyns]
q+
18:13:53 [jeanne]
q?
18:14:00 [jeanne]
ack kford
18:14:18 [AllanJ]
KF: user can write css, but beyond abilities of most users
18:15:51 [AllanJ]
...in today's user agents. Should the UA do more. if the group can identify that something will degrade a users experience
18:16:20 [jeanne]
ack cy
18:16:32 [AllanJ]
...then the UA can warn, like a sign by construction on a sidewalk
18:17:31 [jeanne]
q+ to recommend an SC or technique to add a preference to always display focus.
18:17:33 [KFord]
q+
18:19:04 [mhakkinen]
q+
18:19:14 [AllanJ]
q+ to discuss insulating users from authors
18:19:17 [cyns]
q+
18:20:18 [AllanJ]
KF: other user configurable options, like alternative content stack
18:20:44 [AllanJ]
...this is similar. user should indicate a preference to always display focus
18:20:57 [jeanne]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2009/UAAG20-20090121-ED/#gl-interaction-highlight
18:20:58 [AllanJ]
...UA must do what is has to do to make user happy
18:21:07 [AllanJ]
...User in control
18:21:11 [jeanne]
q+
18:21:21 [jeanne]
ack jeanne
18:21:21 [Zakim]
jeanne, you wanted to recommend an SC or technique to add a preference to always display focus. and to
18:21:25 [AllanJ]
ack Kford
18:21:25 [jeanne]
ack kelly
18:21:32 [jeanne]
ack mark
18:21:37 [jeanne]
ack jim
18:21:47 [jeanne]
ack mh
18:21:52 [jeanne]
ack ja
18:22:51 [jeanne]
q+
18:23:00 [jeanne]
ack cy
18:23:03 [AllanJ]
ack allanj
18:23:03 [Zakim]
AllanJ, you wanted to discuss insulating users from authors
18:23:18 [jeanne]
ack allan
18:23:22 [jeanne]
ack cyn
18:25:27 [AllanJ]
q+ there are many things that authors can do that affect accessibility
18:25:37 [jeanne]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2009/UAAG20-20090121-ED/#gl-interaction-highlight
18:26:14 [AllanJ]
...we don't know them all. hard to prevent all.
18:26:51 [jeanne]
3.5.1 Highlighted items covers this.
18:27:39 [jeanne]
CS: recommends defining content focus carefully. PF and HTML5 are working on this as part of ARIA.
18:28:06 [mhakkinen]
q+
18:28:36 [jeanne]
ack jea
18:28:41 [jeanne]
ack mh
18:29:01 [AllanJ]
scripting focus vs UA focus
18:29:42 [AllanJ]
large black holes in javascript and items taken out of the tab order
18:31:43 [mhakkinen]
jeanne i can start scribing.
18:32:34 [jeanne]
default settins should be accessible.
18:32:37 [KFord]
+1 on the default settings.
18:33:04 [jeanne]
s/default settins should be accessible. /CS:default settings should be accessible.
18:34:55 [mhakkinen]
CS: outline supports everything border supports except none
18:36:49 [KFord]
Thanks Cynthia. Appreciate the visit.
18:36:54 [mhakkinen]
ja: have we met all of CS's issues?
18:37:00 [mhakkinen]
CS: yes
18:38:14 [mhakkinen]
ja: focus in scripts. 3.5.1 add issue of focus in scripts.
18:39:02 [AllanJ]
action: SH to write proposal for 'default settings of UA should be accessible' need examples?
18:39:03 [trackbot]
Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - SH
18:39:03 [trackbot]
Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. sharper, shayes)
18:39:26 [AllanJ]
action: SHarper to write proposal for 'default settings of UA should be accessible' need examples?
18:39:27 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-149 - to write proposal for 'default settings of UA should be accessible' need examples? [on Simon Harper - due 2009-03-05].
18:41:04 [mhakkinen]
ja: do we need to add something relative to focus and scripts?
18:41:15 [mhakkinen]
mh: yes, a real problem
18:41:25 [mhakkinen]
kford: yes
18:41:46 [mhakkinen]
ja: mark to do an action on this
18:42:47 [mhakkinen]
action: mhakkinen to write a proposal for scripting and focus, for 3.5.1
18:42:47 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - mhakkinen
18:43:01 [mhakkinen]
action: mh to write a proposal for scripting and focus, for 3.5.1
18:43:01 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-150 - Write a proposal for scripting and focus, for 3.5.1 [on Markku Hakkinen - due 2009-03-05].
18:43:50 [mhakkinen]
sh: we have a term called override. does this have some relation to default settings?
18:44:14 [mhakkinen]
ja: default settings should be as accessible as possible, accessible out of the box
18:45:39 [jeanne]
zakim, close this item
18:45:39 [Zakim]
agendum 2 closed
18:45:40 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:45:41 [Zakim]
3. Survey Results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090223/ [from AllanJ]
18:46:09 [jeanne]
zakim, take up next
18:46:09 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Survey Results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090223/" taken up [from AllanJ]
18:46:10 [cyns]
I was on Skype, sorry about that.
18:46:12 [AllanJ]
zakim, open item 3
18:46:12 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Survey Results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090223/" taken up [from AllanJ]
18:47:10 [mhakkinen]
ja: first item is to review status section of the document. try to wrap up in time for CSUN
18:49:44 [mhakkinen]
js: make sure that we've covered big ones in status. if something was felt to be not on the right track, call it out and ask for feedback. put the status out and make sure these are the ones we have to address.
18:51:02 [mhakkinen]
hs: better understanding now, re my original comments
18:52:18 [mhakkinen]
kf: group seeks feedback from ua manufacturers as to whether these guidelines can be used to develop ua's. Is all needed information there?
18:52:42 [mhakkinen]
hs: good question. is more supporting documentation needed to support the guidelines?
18:53:35 [mhakkinen]
kf: another question to ask. Today using many different web browsers. do these guidelines capture the need of the wide range of platforms in which ua's exist today
18:53:55 [mhakkinen]
hs: we should include.
18:54:44 [AllanJ]
MH: any devices (wii, kindle, etc) all have UAs in them. this point is not made clearly enough
18:55:36 [mhakkinen]
kf: two more questions, how do we go forward? do i need to write up?
18:56:08 [mhakkinen]
js: will add them to the status, based on what is in minutes. can also email them to list.
18:57:34 [mhakkinen]
ja: publishing the week of the 12th.
18:58:08 [AllanJ]
changes also harmonized with ATAG 20 Guideline 1 also expanded the definition to include web applications as user agents.
18:58:16 [mhakkinen]
js: arrive at csun with a handout containing a link to the document to be reviewed.
18:58:47 [jeanne]
zakim, close this item
18:58:47 [Zakim]
agendum 3 closed
18:58:48 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:58:50 [Zakim]
4. 'Alert' proposal - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JanMar/0035.html [from AllanJ]
18:58:54 [mhakkinen]
ja: any other comments, send to jeanne.
18:59:04 [jeanne]
zakim, take up item 3
18:59:04 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Survey Results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090223/" taken up [from AllanJ]
18:59:28 [mhakkinen]
ja: glossary: document object model
18:59:38 [mhakkinen]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090223/results
19:00:47 [AllanJ]
proposed: The internal representation of data in the source content by a non-Web-based authoring tool or user agent. The document object may form part of a platform accessibility architecture that enables communication with assistive technologies.
19:00:52 [mhakkinen]
ja: take out sentence on authoring tool based on comments.
19:01:32 [AllanJ]
proposed: The internal representation of data in the source content by a non-Web-based user agent. The document object may form part of a platform accessibility architecture that enables communication with assistive technologies.
19:02:02 [mhakkinen]
ja: what about david's proposal?
19:03:48 [KFord]
KFord has joined #ua
19:03:55 [mhakkinen]
ja: both david and simon have valid points. no techniques for this. should put in "understanding uaag" doc
19:04:22 [mhakkinen]
js: appropriate
19:04:37 [AllanJ]
does it hurt anything if we leave the reference to AT in the definition
19:05:12 [mhakkinen]
kford: making definition too complicated. don't need to tie it into AT. it is what it is.
19:05:33 [mhakkinen]
ja: we've explained enough in the programmatic access.
19:05:45 [mhakkinen]
kf: ua developers will know what DOM is
19:06:18 [AllanJ]
proposed: The internal representation of data in the source content by a non-Web-based user agent.
19:06:21 [mhakkinen]
kf: made clear in the meat of the document
19:06:35 [AllanJ]
=1
19:06:39 [AllanJ]
+1
19:07:42 [mhakkinen]
mh: is there an alernative to non-web based ua?
19:07:51 [mhakkinen]
ja: others have thoughts?
19:08:20 [mhakkinen]
sh: are we saying that a web-based ua is not present on the user's platform
19:08:26 [KFord]
KFord has joined #ua
19:09:21 [mhakkinen]
ja: carry over from atag, they have web-based and non-web-based authoring tools.
19:10:04 [mhakkinen]
ja: will take an action to rewrite this.
19:11:57 [AllanJ]
action: JA to write proposal about removing non-web-based, default to be UA , if web-based it will be specifically named
19:11:57 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-151 - Write proposal about removing non-web-based, default to be UA , if web-based it will be specifically named [on Jim Allan - due 2009-03-05].
19:12:21 [AllanJ]
SH: do you have to have a DOM
19:12:42 [AllanJ]
MH: you will eventually create one
19:12:54 [AllanJ]
KF: but might call it something else
19:13:07 [AllanJ]
>proposed: The internal representation of data in the source content by a user agent.
19:13:42 [mhakkinen]
ja: any objections?
19:13:48 [mhakkinen]
none
19:14:20 [jeanne]
action: JS to update glossary with the new definition of Document Object.
19:14:20 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-152 - Update glossary with the new definition of Document Object. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-03-05].
19:14:37 [mhakkinen]
next document character set: all agree, done.
19:15:20 [jeanne]
action: JS to update glossary with new definition of document character set.
19:15:20 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-153 - Update glossary with new definition of document character set. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-03-05].
19:15:24 [mhakkinen]
ja: next is document source, text source. 5 accept, 1 change, 2 more disc
19:17:24 [mhakkinen]
kf: reading this, don't understand what the last sentence is for. Why text source?
19:17:34 [mhakkinen]
js: we use both in the document.
19:19:05 [mhakkinen]
ja: Text the user agent renders upon user request to view the source of specific viewport content (i.e. selected content, frame, page).
19:20:08 [mhakkinen]
ja: any objections to using new short def?
19:20:24 [AllanJ]
resolved: Text the user agent renders upon user request to view the source of specific viewport content (i.e. selected content, frame, page).
19:20:36 [jeanne]
action: JS to update glossary with new definition of Document Source.
19:20:36 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-154 - Update glossary with new definition of Document Source. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-03-05].
19:21:51 [mhakkinen]
sh: w3c DOM group definition of DOM.
19:21:57 [sharper]
http://www.w3.org/DOM/#what
19:22:15 [mhakkinen]
ja: any objection to using DOM groups definition?
19:23:20 [mhakkinen]
resolved: use DOM groups defintion of document object model. "The Document Object Model is a platform- and language-neutral interface that will allow programs and scripts to dynamically access and update the content, structure and style of documents. The document can be further processed and the results of that processing can be incorporated back into the presented page. This is an overview of DOM-related materials here at W3C and around the web."
19:24:12 [mhakkinen]
ja: next is documentation. 7 accepts. one question.
19:25:24 [AllanJ]
add 'all forms must be accessible or available in accessible alternative formats'?
19:27:02 [mhakkinen]
ja: alternative formats is redundant. already taken care of. add in mark's text for installation, ahead of CD ROM.
19:27:14 [AllanJ]
resolved: Any information that supports the use of a user agent. This information may be found, for example, in manuals, installation instructions, the help system, and tutorials. Documentation may be distributed (e.g., as files installed as part of the installation, some parts may be delivered on CD-ROM, others on the Web). See guideline 5.3 for information about documentation requirements.
19:27:46 [mhakkinen]
ja: next is element or element type.
19:29:50 [jeanne]
action: JS to update glossary with definition of Documentation.
19:29:51 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-155 - Update glossary with definition of Documentation. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-03-05].
19:31:03 [mhakkinen]
xhtnl def of element: An element is a document structuring unit declared in the DTD. The element's content model is defined in the DTD, and additional semantics may be defined in the prose description of the element.
19:32:45 [Zakim]
-Cynthia_Shelly(visiting)
19:32:46 [Zakim]
-kford
19:32:55 [mhakkinen]
continue discussion of element next week
19:33:18 [jeanne]
zakim, who is here?
19:33:19 [Zakim]
On the phone I see AllanJ, Jeanne, Henny, sharper, Mark_Hakkinen
19:33:20 [Zakim]
On IRC I see KFord, cyns, sharper, Henny, mhakkinen, jeanne, RRSAgent, Zakim, AllanJ, trackbot
19:33:33 [Zakim]
-sharper
19:33:35 [mhakkinen]
jeanne will extend the current survey for next week, and will remove questions that we have already resolved.
19:34:00 [Zakim]
-Henny
19:34:01 [mhakkinen]
ja: will take up Henny's issue next week.
19:34:22 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:34:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-ua-minutes.html jeanne
19:36:33 [jeanne]
present+ Jim_Allan, Henny_Swan, Kelly_Ford, Mark_Hakkinen, Simon_Harper, Jeanne_Spellman, Cynthia_Shelly_(visiting)
19:37:16 [Zakim]
-Mark_Hakkinen
19:37:25 [mhakkinen]
mhakkinen has left #ua
19:46:29 [Henny]
Henny has left #ua
19:50:59 [Zakim]
-AllanJ
19:56:00 [Zakim]
disconnecting the lone participant, Jeanne, in WAI_UAWG()1:00PM
19:56:01 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
19:56:04 [Zakim]
Attendees were AllanJ, [Microsoft], Jeanne, kford, Henny, sharper, Cynthia_Shelly(visiting), Mark_Hakkinen
20:12:27 [jeanne]
rssagent, make minutes
20:12:43 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
20:12:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-ua-minutes.html jeanne