IRC log of html-wg on 2009-02-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:02:14 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #html-wg
17:02:14 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-html-wg-irc
17:02:22 [DanC]: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2009JanMar/0036.html
17:02:24 [pimpbot]: Title: {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2009-02-26 from Chris Wilson on 2009-02-25 (public-html-wg-announce@w3.org from January to March 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
17:02:30 [ChrisWilson]: agenda+ any additional items?
17:02:42 [ChrisWilson]: zakim, who is on the phone?
17:02:42 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Julian, ChrisWilson, Sam, Matt, Masinter, DanC
17:02:49 [Zakim]: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose DanC
17:02:53 [DanC]: :-/
17:02:58 [DanC]: scribe: DanC
17:03:34 [ChrisWilson]: any additional items to add?
17:03:41 [masinter]: IETF coordination?
17:03:44 [ChrisWilson]: zakim, close item 2
17:03:44 [Zakim]: agendum 2, any additional items?, closed
17:03:45 [Zakim]: I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
17:03:47 [Zakim]: 1. open/pending issues [from ChrisWilson]
17:03:55 [DanC]: (we covered IETF coord last week; is there more, larry?)
17:03:58 [ChrisWilson]: action-72?
17:03:58 [trackbot]: ACTION-72 -- Dan Connolly to monitor progress of testing re 20 Dec HTML 5 spec draft and test materials from WCAG 2 -- due 2009-02-26 -- OPEN
17:03:58 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/72
17:03:59 [pimpbot]: Title: ACTION-72 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:04:19 [DanC]: Topic: ISSUE-20 (table-headers)
17:04:38 [masinter]: (just update, the date/venue seems to be established)
17:05:13 [DanC]: action-72?
17:05:13 [trackbot]: ACTION-72 -- Dan Connolly to monitor progress of testing re 20 Dec HTML 5 spec draft and test materials from WCAG 2 -- due 2009-02-26 -- OPEN
17:05:13 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/72
17:05:14 [pimpbot]: Title: ACTION-72 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:05:16 [Zakim]: + +1.519.538.aaaa
17:05:28 [rubys]: agenda+ IETF Coordination
17:05:29 [DanC]: DanC: no news in public-html; PF WG co-chair says they're studying for another week
17:05:37 [DanC]: ... I tried by phone to figure out details but didn't manage
17:06:38 [dsinger]: dsinger has joined #html-wg
17:06:56 [Zakim]: +[Apple]
17:07:03 [dsinger]: zakim, [apple] has dsinger
17:07:03 [Zakim]: +dsinger; got it
17:07:11 [dsinger]: ...is apologizing that he's late
17:07:37 [Zakim]: + +1.484.802.aabb
17:07:43 [smedero]: +1.484.802.aabb is me
17:07:49 [smedero]: Zakim, +1.484.802.aabb is me
17:07:49 [Zakim]: +smedero; got it
17:08:16 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
17:08:28 [DanC]: action-72?
17:08:29 [trackbot]: ACTION-72 -- Sam Ruby to monitor progress of testing re 20 Dec HTML 5 spec draft and test materials from WCAG 2 -- due 2009-02-26 -- OPEN
17:08:29 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/72
17:08:30 [pimpbot]: Title: ACTION-72 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:08:35 [DanC]: action-72 due next week
17:08:35 [trackbot]: ACTION-72 monitor progress of testing re 20 Dec HTML 5 spec draft and test materials from WCAG 2 due date now next week
17:09:14 [ChrisWilson]: action-107?
17:09:14 [trackbot]: ACTION-107 -- Cynthia Shelly to recruit ARIA joint-TF members -- due 2009-02-26 -- OPEN
17:09:14 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/107
17:09:15 [pimpbot]: Title: ACTION-107 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:09:18 [cshelly]: cshelly has joined #html-wg
17:09:27 [DanC]: Topic: ISSUE-35 (aria-processing)
17:09:39 [ChrisWilson]: zakim, who is on the phone?
17:09:39 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Julian, ChrisWilson, Sam, Matt, Masinter, DanC, +1.519.538.aaaa, [Apple], smedero, [IPcaller]
17:09:41 [Zakim]: [Apple] has dsinger
17:09:46 [DanC]: Cynthia: I got responses from a few people
17:09:47 [DanC]: q+
17:10:01 [ChrisWilson]: zakim, IPCaller is cshelly
17:10:01 [Zakim]: +cshelly; got it
17:10:15 [DanC]: ack danc
17:10:36 [DanC]: Cynthia: Andy/IBM, Alexander... gregory, hsivonen... [missing some]
17:10:43 [ChrisWilson]: Regrets from Joshue, BTW.
17:10:58 [DanC]: Sam: some of those, e.g. hsivonen, declined, right?
17:11:08 [DanC]: regrets+ Joshue
17:11:32 [DanC]: Cynthia: I'm interested in help from Apple safari accessibility folks
17:11:49 [DanC]: Dave: I'm willing to help find somebody in apple; that's not my experties
17:11:57 [DanC]: Cynthia: Opera?
17:12:05 [DanC]: anne? chaals? are you on IRC?
17:12:16 [ChrisWilson]: (that is - Cynthia is looking for an Opera person to contribute to this effort)
17:13:12 [DanC]: DanC: I'm particularly interested in test materials related to claims of ARIA support
17:13:30 [DanC]: CW: browsers support ARIA thru different mechanisms, which might complicate testing
17:13:37 [DanC]: DanC: yes, I appreciate the challenge
17:14:07 [DanC]: close action-107
17:14:07 [trackbot]: ACTION-107 recruit ARIA joint-TF members closed
17:14:24 [ChrisWilson]: zakim, who is on the phone?
17:14:24 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Julian, ChrisWilson, Sam, Matt, Masinter, DanC, +1.519.538.aaaa, [Apple], smedero, cshelly
17:14:25 [DanC]: ACTION: cynthia report progress on ARIA TF due 26 Mar 2009
17:14:25 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-114 - Report progress on ARIA TF due 26 Mar 2009 [on Cynthia Shelly - due 2009-03-05].
17:14:26 [Zakim]: [Apple] has dsinger
17:14:34 [s]: s has joined #html-wg
17:14:37 [ChrisWilson]: zakim, aaaa is Murray
17:14:37 [Zakim]: +Murray; got it
17:14:39 [DanC]: action-114 due 26 Mar
17:14:39 [trackbot]: ACTION-114 Report progress on ARIA TF due 26 Mar 2009 due date now 26 Mar
17:14:54 [ChrisWilson]: action-110?
17:14:54 [trackbot]: ACTION-110 -- Michael(tm) Smith to add note to H:TML draft about what's currently missing and planned to be added -- due 2009-02-26 -- OPEN
17:14:54 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/110
17:14:56 [pimpbot]: Title: ACTION-110 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:14:57 [DanC]: Topic: ISSUE-59 (normative-language-reference)
17:15:37 [DanC]: Sam: my ACTION-109 depends on ACTION-110 and Mike's work in general
17:15:55 [ChrisWilson]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/110
17:15:57 [pimpbot]: Title: ACTION-110 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:16:29 [DanC]: smedero++
17:16:45 [DanC]: DanC: that looks good enough for me
17:16:52 [DanC]: CW: it's missing [oops; help?]
17:17:05 [DanC]: SR: it's missing the normative status controversy
17:17:12 [ChrisWilson]: it's missing what's currently missing and what's planned to be added
17:17:36 [DanC]: so he did make progress. good. I just didn't see his edits of Editor’s Draft 25 February 2009
17:18:02 [ChrisWilson]: agenda+ talk about TPAC
17:18:10 [Lachy]: Lachy has joined #html-wg
17:18:13 [DanC]: agenda + ISSUE-32 (table-summary)
17:18:17 [ChrisWilson]: agenda+ talk about summary (DanC)
17:18:25 [ChrisWilson]: zakim, close item 6
17:18:25 [Zakim]: agendum 6, talk about summary (DanC), closed
17:18:26 [Zakim]: I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:18:27 [Zakim]: 1. open/pending issues [from ChrisWilson]
17:19:06 [ChrisWilson]: issue-20?
17:19:06 [trackbot]: ISSUE-20 -- Improvements to the table-headers algorithm in the HTML 5 spec -- RAISED
17:19:06 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/20
17:19:08 [pimpbot]: Title: ISSUE-20 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:19:43 [ChrisWilson]: issue-52?
17:19:43 [trackbot]: ISSUE-52 -- Respond to XHTML2 WG objections to language in HTML5 draft regarding XHTML1 -- RAISED
17:19:43 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/52
17:19:45 [pimpbot]: Title: ISSUE-52 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:20:04 [DanC]: CW: let's leave the XHTML2 thing on Mike until Mike's here to discuss it
17:20:36 [DanC]: action-105?
17:20:36 [trackbot]: ACTION-105 -- Sam Ruby to should arrange a meeting between chairs of HTML WG and XHTML2 WG to ensure there is a plan for coordination of vocabularies to avoid incompatibilities. -- due 2009-03-26 -- OPEN
17:20:36 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/105
17:20:37 [pimpbot]: Title: ACTION-105 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:21:20 [ChrisWilson]: issue-52?
17:21:20 [trackbot]: ISSUE-52 -- Respond to XHTML2 WG objections to language in HTML5 draft regarding XHTML1 -- RAISED
17:21:20 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/52
17:21:21 [pimpbot]: Title: ISSUE-52 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:21:27 [ChrisWilson]: issue-54?
17:21:27 [trackbot]: ISSUE-54 -- tools that can't generate <!DOCTYPE html> -- RAISED
17:21:27 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/54
17:21:29 [pimpbot]: Title: ISSUE-54 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:21:37 [DanC]: lachy, any news on about: registration?
17:21:56 [ChrisWilson]: action-103?
17:21:56 [trackbot]: ACTION-103 -- Lachlan Hunt to track registration of about: URI scheme -- due 2009-03-05 -- OPEN
17:21:56 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/103
17:21:57 [pimpbot]: Title: ACTION-103 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:23:26 [masinter]: issue should be 'register' rather than 'track registration'
17:23:38 [masinter]: er, Action-103 should be 'register' rather than 'track registration'
17:24:42 [DanC]: no, smedero , you can't change the action without the consent of the issue owner
17:24:48 [DanC]: action, rather
17:24:59 [DanC]: if somebody want to take the 'register' action, very well.
17:25:26 [DanC]: (this is a clear case of PENDING REVIEW, to me...)
17:25:59 [DanC]: "PENDINGREVIEW = An Editor has reviewed arguments and edited spec to taste, or the WG chairs have evaluated the level of consensus and identified one or more proposals that would resolve the issue. In the case where multiple proposals are identified, the Editors may make the determination as to which one to incorporate." -- http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML
17:26:02 [pimpbot]: Title: HTML - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)
17:26:26 [DanC]: [some discussion of how to track this about: stuff...]
17:26:44 [DanC]: CW: I added a note...
17:26:54 [ChrisWilson]: 2009-02-26 17:26:28: The consensus is likely conditional on the registration being performed. Next action is to get registration; if that doesn't happen we will re-evaluate design. [Chris Wilson]
17:27:25 [ChrisWilson]: agenda?
17:27:32 [ChrisWilson]: zakim, close item 1
17:27:32 [Zakim]: agendum 1, open/pending issues, closed
17:27:33 [Zakim]: I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:27:35 [Zakim]: 3. IETF Coordination [from rubys]
17:27:40 [ChrisWilson]: zakim, take up item 3
17:27:40 [Zakim]: agendum 3. "IETF Coordination" taken up [from rubys]
17:27:50 [rubys]: http://esw.w3.org/topic/IETF_HTML5_Meeting_March_2009
17:27:51 [Julian]: I just checked, and no email has been sent to uri-review w.r.t. "about"
17:27:52 [pimpbot]: Title: IETF HTML5 Meeting March 2009 - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)
17:28:03 [DanC]: thanks, julian
17:28:29 [DanC]: LMM: room is booked; let us know if you're coming so we can deal with room size
17:29:24 [Lachy]: DanC, no news yet
17:29:38 [DanC]: are you waiting for something, Lachy? just a round-tuit?
17:29:58 [Lachy]: I will look into it early next week. It's just a matter of time.
17:30:06 [DanC]: thanks, Lachy
17:31:28 [DanC]: LMM: agenda requests are welcome even for those who don't plan to attend
17:31:44 [DanC]: DanC: my participation is still at risk
17:32:05 [ChrisWilson]: zakim, close item 3
17:32:05 [Zakim]: agendum 3, IETF Coordination, closed
17:32:06 [Zakim]: I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:32:08 [Zakim]: 4. talk about TPAC [from ChrisWilson]
17:32:14 [ChrisWilson]: zakim, take up item 4
17:32:14 [Zakim]: agendum 4. "talk about TPAC" taken up [from ChrisWilson]
17:32:38 [yaharon]: yaharon has joined #html-wg
17:32:48 [DanC]: CW: TPAC is currently scheduled for 1st week of Nov; W3C mgmt is asking for explicit confirmation
17:33:09 [DanC]: close action-113
17:33:09 [trackbot]: ACTION-113 Get Sam and Chris to look at http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/34786/TPAC2009/ closed
17:33:28 [rubys]: Grrrr: http://www.us.apachecon.com/c/acus2009/
17:33:29 [pimpbot]: Title: ApacheCon US 2009 (at www.us.apachecon.com)
17:34:45 [DanC]: CW: somebody asked where? Santa Clara.
17:35:24 [DanC]: CW: so I ought to ask the WG who's like to attend
17:36:24 [DanC]: MM: what's the threshold?
17:36:44 [DanC]: CW: well, I hadn't thought about it; given the location, I'm reasonably confident we'll have critical mass
17:38:35 [tH]: tH has joined #html-wg
17:38:39 [dsinger]: there is probably a magic agenda too (matters that will need a face to face to make progress)
17:40:24 [DanC]: CW: whether to have a meeting depends on agenda too, yes
17:40:38 [dsinger]: we are surely meeting. does anyone seriously think we don't need one, or that no-one will be there?
17:40:40 [DanC]: MM: I can imagine a noisy thread on whether to have a meeting
17:40:58 [DanC]: (I think n^2 email is awkward too; WBS is the right tool here.)
17:41:22 [ChrisWilson]: Dan, can you set up a WBS poll? Ending next Wednesday, perhaps, so we can confirm by next telecon
17:41:33 [rubys]: nah, just set up a wiki page
17:41:50 [gsnedders]: dsinger: I don't think there's anyway we won't reach critical mass
17:42:03 [rubys]: If Ian, Chris, and I are in a room in the bay area, I expect others will pile one
17:42:09 [dsinger]: I agree
17:42:10 [DanC]: rubys, I prefer WBS, but a wiki is OK by me too
17:42:28 [dsinger]: we should say "we're meeting; please get agenda topics and attendance info to the chairs"
17:42:57 [ChrisWilson]: zakim, close item 4
17:42:57 [Zakim]: agendum 4, talk about TPAC, closed
17:42:58 [Zakim]: I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
17:43:00 [Zakim]: 5. ISSUE-32 (table-summary) [from DanC]
17:43:07 [ChrisWilson]: zakim, take up item 5
17:43:07 [Zakim]: agendum 5. "ISSUE-32 (table-summary)" taken up [from DanC]
17:43:08 [DanC]: ACTION: Dan set up WBS for HTML WG participants to @@ reTPAC 2009
17:43:08 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-115 - Set up WBS for HTML WG participants to @@ reTPAC 2009 [on Dan Connolly - due 2009-03-05].
17:44:19 [DanC]: "Problem statement: some users find navigating tables complicated, and
17:44:19 [DanC]: would like a description of the table so that they can make better use of
17:44:19 [DanC]: the table. Such users might be blind, using an accessibility tool, or
17:44:19 [DanC]: might have cognitive difficulties, or might just be unfamiliar with the
17:44:19 [DanC]: structure of particularly complicated tables."
17:44:55 [rubys]: http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.platform/msg/7ff3a663037afc89
17:44:56 [pimpbot]: Title: An alternate take on HTML5 - mozilla.dev.platform | Google Groups (at groups.google.com)
17:45:24 [DanC]: DanC: I see 2 messages taking issue with that problem statement... I wonder if it's useful to focus there
17:46:17 [DanC]: MM: the HTML WG seems to think it is responsible for figuring out accessibility, but there are other W3C WGs charged with that...
17:46:18 [DanC]: q+
17:46:38 [ChrisWilson]: ack DanC
17:46:55 [rubys]: q+
17:47:24 [dsinger]: the pfwg won't tell us what syntax elements and so on to use; the syntax of HTML is ours
17:47:25 [cshelly]: q+
17:47:42 [dsinger]: we shouldn't tell the pfwg how to manage accessibility, either
17:47:47 [dsinger]: we have to talk to each other
17:47:53 [dsinger]: I agree
17:49:02 [DanC]: DanC: [hard to scribe and talk...]
17:49:05 [ChrisWilson]: ack rubys
17:49:53 [DanC]: MM: W3C already agreed on this (@summary) once; it seems we're recinding that agreement... seems like the burden should be on us to explain why
17:50:25 [ChrisWilson]: ack cshelly
17:50:40 [DanC]: SR: this call next week... MM, are you planning to be there?
17:50:55 [DanC]: MM: I didn't have plans to, but I'm willing to
17:52:07 [DanC]: action-111?
17:52:07 [trackbot]: ACTION-111 -- Sam Ruby to work on process issues re: summary -- due 2009-03-30 -- OPEN
17:52:07 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/111
17:52:09 [pimpbot]: Title: ACTION-111 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:52:25 [ChrisWilson]: zakim, close item 5
17:52:25 [Zakim]: agendum 5, ISSUE-32 (table-summary), closed
17:52:27 [Zakim]: I see nothing remaining on the agenda
17:52:32 [ChrisWilson]: zakim, agenda?
17:52:32 [Zakim]: I see nothing remaining on the agenda
17:52:32 [DanC]: Sam: I expect to have progress next week and complete by 30 Mar
17:52:53 [DanC]: Topic: Next meeting
17:53:00 [DanC]: DanC: I'm at risk next week [TAG ftf]
17:53:05 [masinter]: next week W3C TAG conflicts for me
17:53:06 [DanC]: CW: I'm at-risk too
17:53:08 [dsinger]: I am at risk next week also
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17:53:13 [ChrisWilson]: move adjourn?
17:53:16 [DanC]: Sam: I'll either chair or cancel.
17:53:18 [ChrisWilson]: adjourned
17:53:23 [Zakim]: -Murray
17:53:23 [dsinger]: thx
17:53:25 [Zakim]: -Masinter
17:53:27 [Zakim]: -Julian
17:53:27 [dsinger]: maybe not
17:53:28 [Zakim]: -smedero
17:53:28 [Zakim]: -cshelly
17:53:29 [Zakim]: -ChrisWilson
17:53:29 [Zakim]: -Sam
17:53:31 [Zakim]: -Matt
17:53:31 [Zakim]: -DanC
17:53:32 [Zakim]: -[Apple]
17:53:34 [Zakim]: HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
17:53:37 [Zakim]: Attendees were Julian, ChrisWilson, Sam, Matt, Masinter, DanC, +1.519.538.aaaa, dsinger, smedero, cshelly, Murray
17:54:27 [DanC]: RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:54:27 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-html-wg-minutes.html DanC
17:54:51 [DanC]: RRSAgent, make logs public
17:55:01 [DanC]: RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:55:01 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-html-wg-minutes.html DanC
17:55:02 [pimpbot]: Title: SV_MEETING_TITLE -- 26 Feb 2009 (at www.w3.org)
17:55:13 [DanC]: Meeting: HTML WG Weekly teleconference
17:55:22 [DanC]: Chair: Chris Wilson
17:56:10 [DanC]: RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:56:10 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-html-wg-minutes.html DanC
17:56:11 [pimpbot]: Title: SV_MEETING_TITLE -- 26 Feb 2009 (at www.w3.org)
17:57:55 [DanC]: ScribeOptions: -final
17:57:58 [DanC]: RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:57:58 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-html-wg-minutes.html DanC
17:57:59 [pimpbot]: Title: HTML WG Weekly teleconference -- 26 Feb 2009 (at www.w3.org)
17:59:03 [DanC]: that's a known Zakim bug; it's not smart enough to prune aaaa out of the list
17:59:25 [DanC]: patches welcome...
18:00:34 [DanC]: http://dev.w3.org/2001/sw/zakim/
18:00:36 [pimpbot]: Title: Index of /2001/sw/zakim (at dev.w3.org)
18:04:47 [smedero]: s/<smedero> +1.484.802.aabb is me//
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18:05:07 [smedero]: RRSAgent, draft minutes
18:05:07 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-html-wg-minutes.html smedero
18:05:09 [pimpbot]: Title: HTML WG Weekly teleconference -- 26 Feb 2009 (at www.w3.org)
18:06:31 [annevk]: did mike pass our regrets?
18:06:31 [annevk]: it's 3am here and we went out
18:07:23 [ChrisWilson]: I believe Mike had sent his regrets, yes.
18:07:36 [ChrisWilson]: But really, Anne, where are your priorities?
18:07:42 [ChrisWilson]: Oh, wait, nevermind. :)
18:08:22 [gsnedders]: ChrisWilson: In Tokyo, I am led to believe.
18:08:29 [gsnedders]: :)
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18:34:18 [annevk]: as for the ARIA gig, I thought I already declined
18:34:29 [annevk]: I'm not sure who else from Opera has time to participate
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22:42:40 [karl]: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/SGML/sgml-lex/sgml-lex
22:42:45 [pimpbot]: Title: A Lexical Analyzer for HTML and Basic SGML (at www.w3.org)
22:43:46 [karl]: I love info-archeology
22:44:14 [karl]: Very old W3C Note from DanC W3C NOTE 14-Apr-97
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23:59:42 [karl]: http://www.w3.org/TR/WD-doctypes
23:59:43 [pimpbot]: Title: W3C WD: HTML Dialects: Internet Media Types and SGML Document Types (at www.w3.org)