IRC log of css on 2009-02-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:53:30 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #css
16:53:30 [RRSAgent]
logging to
16:53:39 [plinss]
zakim, this will be style
16:53:40 [Zakim]
ok, plinss; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
16:55:41 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
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+ +1.253.307.aaaa
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- +1.253.307.aaaa
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Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
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Attendees were +1.253.307.aaaa
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Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
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+ +1.858.354.aaaa
16:57:56 [plinss]
zakim, +1.858.354 is me
16:57:57 [Zakim]
+plinss; got it
16:58:07 [Zakim]
16:58:08 [Zakim]
16:58:09 [Zakim]
16:58:14 [Zakim]
+ +1.253.307.aabb
16:58:27 [dsinger]
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16:58:46 [plinss]
zakim, +1.253.307 is arronei
16:58:46 [Zakim]
+arronei; got it
16:58:47 [dsinger]
Zakim, mute me
16:58:48 [Zakim]
dsinger should now be muted
16:58:58 [Zakim]
16:59:12 [dsinger]
Good morning ... On bus as usual
16:59:24 [plinss]
morning David
17:01:52 [plinss]
zakim, [microsoft] has sylvaing
17:01:52 [Zakim]
+sylvaing; got it
17:02:05 [dsinger]
Zakim, who is here?
17:02:05 [Zakim]
On the phone I see plinss, dsinger (muted), arronei, [Microsoft]
17:02:07 [Zakim]
[Microsoft] has sylvaing
17:02:11 [Zakim]
On IRC I see dsinger, RRSAgent, Zakim, arronei, fantasai, plinss_, shepazu, jdaggett, plinss, Bert, krijnh, trackbot, Hixie
17:02:45 [dsinger]
Ah, do we have a chair?
17:02:51 [plinss]
17:03:20 [dsinger]
17:03:28 [ChrisL]
ChrisL has joined #css
17:03:50 [dbaron]
dbaron has joined #css
17:04:27 [dsinger]
I will have to stop at 9:55 btw
17:04:30 [Zakim]
17:04:55 [sylvaing]
sylvaing has joined #css
17:05:16 [Zakim]
17:05:26 [Zakim]
17:06:17 [Zakim]
17:07:25 [dsinger]
P10 must be fantasai?
17:07:49 [ChrisL]
zakim, ??p10 is probably fantasai
17:07:49 [Zakim]
+fantasai?; got it
17:08:48 [ChrisL]
scribe: chris
17:08:49 [Zakim]
17:08:53 [ChrisL]
scribenick: chrisl
17:09:05 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, here
17:09:05 [RRSAgent]
17:09:19 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, make logs public
17:09:26 [ChrisL]
topic: @import
17:09:31 [plinss]
17:10:36 [ChrisL]
cl: sent some email about multiple @rules clamouring to be 'first'
17:10:41 [ChrisL]
zakim, who is speaking?
17:10:52 [Zakim]
ChrisL, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [Microsoft] (64%), ChrisL (63%), Bert (4%), howcome (5%)
17:11:20 [sylvaing]
Zakim, [Microsoft] has sylvaing
17:11:20 [Zakim]
sylvaing was already listed in [Microsoft], sylvaing
17:12:02 [ChrisL]
sg: need to distinguish functionaly valid from syntactically valid
17:12:20 [ChrisL]
hl: we should use the canonoical CSS syntax
17:12:35 [ChrisL]
pl: agree with chris point but its not related to the current issue
17:12:53 [ChrisL]
... so the current case seems like a problem
17:12:54 [Zakim]
17:13:20 [ChrisL]
hl; problematic, use the eternal syntax not the css 1, 2 or 3 syntax
17:13:50 [ChrisL]
db: so implementations that dont implement that currently will need to do so, to see if some junk fits the eternal synbtax
17:13:58 [melinda]
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17:14:23 [ChrisL]
ee: we don't wat to cut off extensibility
17:14:44 [ChrisL]
sl: the specific test case in anne's emailis gramatically correct, but implementations differ
17:15:23 [ChrisL]
ae: in fact it is invalid due to leading numeric
17:16:14 [ChrisL]
pl: would not allow a valid rule, but would allow known or unknown @rules.
17:16:19 [ChrisL]
hl: yes
17:16:28 [ChrisL]
cl: i agree
17:16:52 [alexmog]
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17:16:52 [ChrisL]
so in the anne test case, its not an @rule.
17:17:23 [ChrisL]
sl: spec talks about valid statements, not @rules specifically. but this is not a valid statement
17:17:39 [ChrisL]
hl: bert?
17:18:00 [ChrisL]
bb: don't want it to load, as the rule ight be valid in the future. need to stop it loading
17:18:12 [ChrisL]
sl: butbrowsers do load these currently
17:18:17 [ChrisL]
hl: they should not
17:18:41 [ChrisL]
bb: some day we may invent an @rule that has to come before an @import
17:19:09 [ChrisL]
cl: @charset isn't an @rule
17:19:17 [ChrisL]
bb: no, its special cased in the grammar
17:19:19 [Zakim]
17:19:39 [ChrisL]
ae: yes but its reparsed as an @rule once the charset is detected
17:19:45 [ChrisL]
bb: no
17:20:30 [ChrisL]
sl: spec says @import cannot come after a valid statement. but this is not a valid sytatement.
17:20:44 [ChrisL]
bb: its correct
17:20:55 [ChrisL]
bb: its a normal token,
17:21:15 [ChrisL]
sl: which meaning of valid do we mean here. succesfully parsed, or known and can be applied?
17:21:19 [ChrisL]
pl: the former
17:22:03 [ChrisL]
hl: we cn say there should be nothing ahead of @import except @charset. removes need to discuss 'valid'
17:22:28 [ChrisL]
db: has anyone looked at whatwebkit does? do not want to get into non-interoperable behaviour
17:22:47 [ChrisL]
.. what exactly does webkit to to accept or reject this @rule?
17:23:21 [ChrisL]
hl: if we can agree on a simple workable solution we can test it against implementations
17:23:29 [fantasai]
db: The solution we use in Gecko is, if it parses into something that we know about, then we drop following @import rules
17:23:47 [ChrisL]
db: in gecko, if the rule is dropped then we continue to process the @rule
17:23:59 [ChrisL]
hl; easy to flag if something has been dropped
17:24:23 [ChrisL]
db: an extra semicolon at end of time - would that cause the @import to be dropped?
17:24:26 [ChrisL]
hl: no
17:24:28 [dsinger]
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17:24:40 [Zakim]
17:24:50 [Zakim]
17:24:56 [dsinger]
zakim, [apple] has dsinger
17:24:56 [Zakim]
+dsinger; got it
17:25:03 [ChrisL]
ee: do you drop @import after an invalid selector? eg two commas
17:25:11 [fantasai]
or an unknown pseudo
17:25:17 [ChrisL]
db: yes so following @import would be allowed
17:25:34 [ChrisL]
bb: suggest we allow empty stements, space, cdo cdc, nothing else
17:25:40 [fantasai]
17:25:51 [ChrisL]
17:26:13 [ChrisL]
plh: its reasonable but not forward compatible
17:26:51 [ChrisL]
db: properties not an issue as they are inside the rules, . error in selctor forces rule to be dropped
17:26:58 [Lachy]
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17:27:06 [ChrisL]
bb; concerned about things that could be valid in the future
17:27:44 [ChrisL]
db: spec id clear on rules being ignored. if spec must be ignored it can't trigger other things
17:27:57 [ChrisL]
cl: so ignored means treat as if it was never there
17:28:27 [ChrisL]
db: we have that issue witha lot of things. dont want future stylesheets to break completely
17:28:53 [ChrisL]
pl: issue is that if the rule becomes valid tomorrow, it stops the @import loading
17:29:37 [ChrisL]
sl: this can happen today, ie8 does not support :: for example so following import will load but later, or in other browsers, it will be skipped
17:30:52 [ChrisL]
cl: how much existing content would break if the spec said nothing before @import?
17:31:00 [ChrisL]
hl: little to none
17:31:12 [ChrisL]
pl: would require changes in implementations though
17:31:45 [ChrisL]
ee: any @rules that are dropped should be allowed before @import
17:32:20 [ChrisL]
db: media queries changed syntax f @import. its not valid css2. so does non-media-queries implementsation drop?
17:32:41 [szilles]
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17:32:52 [dbaron]
example was, given two rules: @import url(foo) (min-width:800px); @import url(bar);
17:32:53 [ChrisL]
pl: there are implementations that do not support media queries
17:33:03 [dbaron]
implementations without media queries skip the first; with this change would we also require them to skip the second?
17:33:20 [fantasai]
I strongly believe that we should allow dropped @rules before @import
17:33:35 [ChrisL]
ee: we should allow any (currently invalid) @rule before @import
17:33:44 [ChrisL]
sl: invalid or unknown?
17:33:48 [ChrisL]
cl: unknown
17:33:54 [ChrisL]
hl: can live with
17:34:31 [ChrisL]
ee: and also as bert said, empty statements and cdo cdc
17:35:05 [ChrisL]
pl; odd that current @rules would block @import
17:35:17 [ChrisL]
db: thats ok and we want it for forward compat
17:35:43 [ChrisL]
ee: adding @rule before @import is pretty rare. less of an issue than withselectors
17:36:14 [dbaron]
so if you only allow unknown @-rules and don't allow anything that's not an @-rule, don't you end up distinguishing between:
17:36:20 [dbaron]
@new-rule {}
17:36:23 [ChrisL]
pl: issue is known @rules not supported by older browsers
17:36:24 [dbaron]
@new-rule {}; /* extra semicolon at end */
17:36:55 [ChrisL]
pl: covered by emptystatement rule
17:37:12 [ChrisL]
db; we have a concept of empty statement?
17:37:22 [ChrisL]
bb: would need to be defined in spec, but its clear
17:37:30 [ChrisL]
pl; i detect consensus
17:39:20 [plinss]
the current proposal is: disallow any statements before @import except: empty statements, comment tokens, and unknown, but wel-formed @rules
17:39:46 [ChrisL]
ee: unknown or invalid
17:39:54 [fantasai]
17:39:57 [ChrisL]
sl: it says unknown but wel formed
17:39:59 [fantasai]
17:40:14 [fantasai]
@namespace *;
17:40:30 [ChrisL]
bb: grammar does not seem to allow empty statements
17:40:40 [ChrisL]
ee: anything that has been ignored
17:40:54 [dbaron]
yeah, maybe the extra-semicolon thing causes the next selector/rule to be ignored at present
17:41:10 [fantasai]
that starts with an @sign
17:41:14 [ChrisL]
s/anything/anything starting @/
17:41:17 [fantasai]
17:41:21 [fantasai]
@import "style.css";
17:41:45 [ChrisL]
ee: @1; does not parse as an at-rule
17:41:57 [ChrisL]
bb; neither a selector nor an @rule
17:42:14 [ChrisL]
sl; has to parse as an @rule first, then the rule is applied
17:42:34 [ChrisL]
pl: so @1; would block @import
17:42:36 [ChrisL]
cl: yes
17:43:22 [ChrisL]
(no objection heard)
17:43:25 [dbaron]
I think it would be good to see the proposal actually written up.
17:43:45 [dbaron]
This is rather hard to follow with lots of abstract statements.
17:43:57 [fantasai]
I agree
17:44:07 [ChrisL]
dbaron - yes, but if we resolve it then someone can get an action to write it up in detail
17:44:34 [ChrisL]
bb: (error recovery - scribe missed)
17:44:34 [dbaron]
I think we should action somebody to write it up without resolving.
17:45:06 [ChrisL]
trackbot, status
17:45:49 [ChrisL]
action; sylvian to write up the proposal on @import and unknown well formed @rules
17:45:58 [ChrisL]
action: sylvian to write up the proposal on @import and unknown well formed @rules
17:45:58 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - sylvian
17:46:00 [Bert]
(Issue 24 is about recovering from invalid tokens when inside a selector. The ; in @1; is such an invalid token. What to do? Skip to the next {}?)
17:46:03 [fantasai]
17:46:15 [ChrisL]
action: sylvain to write up the proposal on @import and unknown well formed @rules
17:46:16 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-123 - Write up the proposal on @import and unknown well formed @rules [on Sylvain Galineau - due 2009-03-04].
17:46:38 [fantasai]
17:46:40 [fantasai]
17:46:55 [ChrisL]
topic: issue-24
17:46:57 [plinss]
17:46:59 [ChrisL]
17:46:59 [trackbot]
ISSUE-24 -- Does the 'background' shorthand needs both clip and origin? -- CLOSED
17:46:59 [trackbot]
17:47:19 [ChrisL]
pl: not that one
17:47:41 [ChrisL]
oops,css2.1 issue not tracker issue. ifnore above
17:48:05 [fantasai]
17:48:46 [ChrisL]
ee: we wanted to requie matching brackets, the change we made to fix this solves selectors but adds a new problem for
17:48:56 [ChrisL]
... declarations
17:49:32 [ChrisL]
... makes the trap point for an invalid declaration to be astatement not a declaration
17:50:02 [ChrisL]
... so a rue with an invalid statement will be completely ignored instead of justthat statement
17:50:04 [fantasai]
17:50:53 [ChrisL]
ee: so we need to go back and replace with 'statement ordeclaration'. or duplicate the rule, one for malformed statement and one for malformed declarations
17:51:23 [ChrisL]
bb: statement or declaration is probably correct. problem is the section is called malformed declarations
17:51:29 [ChrisL]
ee: change all occurences
17:51:41 [ChrisL]
bb: would work
17:52:08 [ChrisL]
bb: so if you are in a declaration, skip to end of declaration
17:52:15 [ChrisL]
bb: yes, think its correct
17:52:52 [ChrisL]
cl: so there are two proposals
17:53:30 [ChrisL]
ee: scope of changes is only one paragraph
17:54:14 [ChrisL]
bb; edge case, when inside a selector, if the token in error is at or before the start of the selector. what are you 'in'
17:54:19 [ChrisL]
ee: a statement
17:54:25 [ChrisL]
bb: what kind?
17:54:36 [ChrisL]
ee: you don;t know at that point
17:54:48 [ChrisL]
bb: so ignore that singe token?
17:55:03 [ChrisL]
ee: treat it as a selector, dont ignore that token.
17:55:19 [ChrisL]
bb: talking of tokens thatare disallowed by the grammar
17:55:35 [ChrisL]
bb: colon is allowed, better example ....
17:55:47 [ChrisL]
... closing brace for example
17:56:04 [ChrisL]
ee: if its not an @rule, treat as aselector
17:56:19 [ChrisL]
bb: fine with me. deals with future expansion
17:56:53 [ChrisL]
pl: other opinions?
17:57:16 [ChrisL]
bb: hard to follow without examples
17:57:21 [Zakim]
17:57:40 [dsinger]
bye...another meeting, sorry
17:57:48 [ChrisL]
pl: can we resolve here or do we need more discussion?
17:58:40 [dbaron]
(Confusion about what we would be resolving on.)
17:59:38 [ChrisL]
action: bert to propose specific wording on complete text for what is inserted and deleted for bracket/quote parsing
17:59:39 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-124 - Propose specific wording on complete text for what is inserted and deleted for bracket/quote parsing [on Bert Bos - due 2009-03-04].
17:59:49 [ChrisL]
ee: is it solved with two separate rules?
17:59:53 [ChrisL]
bb: not sure
18:00:25 [ChrisL]
pl: why dont you two work together onthat action so it can be closed quickly
18:00:35 [ChrisL]
zakim, list attendees
18:00:36 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been +1.858.354.aaaa, plinss, dsinger, +1.253.307.aabb, arronei, sylvaing, ChrisL, Bert, David_Baron, fantasai?, howcome, Melinda_Grant
18:00:40 [ChrisL]
chair: Peter
18:00:57 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:00:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ChrisL
18:02:18 [Zakim]
18:02:23 [Zakim]
18:02:24 [Zakim]
18:02:24 [Zakim]
18:02:26 [Zakim]
18:02:27 [Zakim]
18:02:29 [Zakim]
18:02:33 [Zakim]
18:02:35 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
18:02:36 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.858.354.aaaa, plinss, dsinger, +1.253.307.aabb, arronei, sylvaing, ChrisL, Bert, David_Baron, fantasai?, howcome, Melinda_Grant
18:02:45 [ChrisL]
Meeting: CSS telcon
18:02:49 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:02:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ChrisL
18:03:00 [dbaron]
I assume no telecon next week since it'll be 2-3am between the first and second day of the f2f meeting
18:03:07 [ChrisL]
zakim, where is 858?
18:03:07 [Zakim]
North American dialing code 1.858 is California
18:03:20 [ChrisL]
zakim, where is 253?
18:03:20 [Zakim]
North American dialing code 1.253 is Washington
18:03:43 [arronei]
253 was arronei
18:03:43 [dbaron]
858 is San Diego
18:03:43 [ChrisL]
dbaron, that seems a safe assumption
18:03:48 [plinss]
chris: 858 was me
18:03:56 [dbaron]
18:04:19 [ChrisL]
ok, they are both listed explicitly in the attendance list already
18:04:47 [ChrisL]
Present: plinss, dsinger, arronei, sylvaing, ChrisL, Bert, David_Baron, fantasai, howcome, Melinda_Grant
18:04:53 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:04:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ChrisL
18:15:55 [ChrisL]
regrets: szilles, daniel, emily, molly, anne
18:15:57 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:15:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ChrisL
18:16:55 [ChrisL]
18:17:09 [ChrisL]
18:17:36 [ChrisL]
18:17:53 [ChrisL]
18:18:07 [ChrisL]
18:18:25 [ChrisL]
18:18:41 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:18:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ChrisL
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