16:53:30 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #css
16:53:30 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/02/25-css-irc
16:53:39 <plinss> zakim, this will be style
16:53:40 <Zakim> ok, plinss; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
16:55:41 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
16:55:43 <Zakim> + +1.253.307.aaaa
16:56:40 <Zakim> - +1.253.307.aaaa
16:56:41 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
16:56:41 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.253.307.aaaa
16:57:43 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
16:57:45 <Zakim> + +1.858.354.aaaa
16:57:56 <plinss> zakim, +1.858.354 is me
16:57:57 <Zakim> +plinss; got it
16:58:07 <Zakim> +dsinger
16:58:08 <Zakim> -dsinger
16:58:09 <Zakim> +dsinger
16:58:14 <Zakim> + +1.253.307.aabb
16:58:27 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #css
16:58:46 <plinss> zakim, +1.253.307 is arronei
16:58:46 <Zakim> +arronei; got it
16:58:47 <dsinger> Zakim, mute me
16:58:48 <Zakim> dsinger should now be muted
16:58:58 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:59:12 <dsinger> Good morning ... On bus as usual
16:59:24 <plinss> morning David
17:01:52 <plinss> zakim, [microsoft] has sylvaing
17:01:52 <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
17:02:05 <dsinger> Zakim, who is here?
17:02:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss, dsinger (muted), arronei, [Microsoft]
17:02:07 <Zakim> [Microsoft] has sylvaing
17:02:11 <Zakim> On IRC I see dsinger, RRSAgent, Zakim, arronei, fantasai, plinss_, shepazu, jdaggett, plinss, Bert, krijnh, trackbot, Hixie
17:02:45 <dsinger> Ah, do we have a chair?
17:02:51 <plinss> yes
17:03:20 <dsinger> Cool
17:03:28 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #css
17:03:50 <dbaron> dbaron has joined #css
17:04:27 <dsinger> I will have to stop at 9:55 btw
17:04:30 <Zakim> +ChrisL
17:04:55 <sylvaing> sylvaing has joined #css
17:05:16 <Zakim> +Bert
17:05:26 <Zakim> +David_Baron
17:06:17 <Zakim> +??P10
17:07:25 <dsinger> P10 must be fantasai?
17:07:49 <ChrisL> zakim, ??p10 is probably fantasai
17:07:49 <Zakim> +fantasai?; got it
17:08:48 <ChrisL> scribe: chris
17:08:49 <Zakim> +howcome
17:08:53 <ChrisL> scribenick: chrisl
17:09:05 <ChrisL> rrsagent, here
17:09:05 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2009/02/25-css-irc#T17-09-05
17:09:19 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make logs public
17:09:26 <ChrisL> topic: @import
17:09:31 <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0119.html
17:10:36 <ChrisL> cl: sent some email about multiple @rules clamouring to be 'first'
17:10:41 <ChrisL> zakim, who is speaking?
17:10:52 <Zakim> ChrisL, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [Microsoft] (64%), ChrisL (63%), Bert (4%), howcome (5%)
17:11:20 <sylvaing> Zakim, [Microsoft] has sylvaing
17:11:20 <Zakim> sylvaing was already listed in [Microsoft], sylvaing
17:12:02 <ChrisL> sg: need to distinguish functionaly valid from syntactically valid
17:12:20 <ChrisL> hl: we should use the canonoical CSS syntax
17:12:35 <ChrisL> pl: agree with chris point but its not related to the current issue
17:12:53 <ChrisL> ... so the current case seems like a problem
17:12:54 <Zakim> +Melinda_Grant
17:13:20 <ChrisL> hl; problematic, use the eternal syntax not the css 1, 2 or 3 syntax
17:13:50 <ChrisL> db: so implementations that dont implement that currently will need to do so, to see if some junk fits the eternal synbtax
17:13:58 <melinda> melinda has joined #CSS
17:14:23 <ChrisL> ee: we don't wat to cut off extensibility
17:14:44 <ChrisL> sl: the specific test case in anne's emailis gramatically correct, but implementations differ
17:15:23 <ChrisL> ae: in fact it is invalid due to leading numeric
17:16:14 <ChrisL> pl: would not allow a valid rule, but would allow known or unknown @rules.
17:16:19 <ChrisL> hl: yes
17:16:28 <ChrisL> cl: i agree
17:16:52 <alexmog> alexmog has joined #css
17:16:52 <ChrisL> so in the anne test case, its not an @rule. 
17:17:23 <ChrisL> sl: spec talks about valid statements, not @rules specifically. but this is not a valid statement
17:17:39 <ChrisL> hl: bert?
17:18:00 <ChrisL> bb: don't want it to load, as the rule ight be valid in the future. need to stop it loading
17:18:12 <ChrisL> sl: butbrowsers do load these currently
17:18:17 <ChrisL> hl: they should not
17:18:41 <ChrisL> bb: some day we may invent an @rule that has to come before an @import
17:19:09 <ChrisL> cl: @charset isn't an @rule
17:19:17 <ChrisL> bb: no, its special cased in the grammar
17:19:19 <Zakim> -arronei
17:19:39 <ChrisL> ae: yes but its reparsed as an @rule once the charset is detected
17:19:45 <ChrisL> bb: no
17:20:30 <ChrisL> sl: spec says @import cannot come after a valid statement. but this is not a valid sytatement.
17:20:44 <ChrisL> bb: its correct
17:20:55 <ChrisL> bb: its a normal token, 
17:21:15 <ChrisL> sl: which meaning of valid do we mean here. succesfully parsed, or known and can be applied?
17:21:19 <ChrisL> pl: the former
17:22:03 <ChrisL> hl: we cn say there should be nothing ahead of @import except @charset. removes need to discuss 'valid'
17:22:28 <ChrisL> db: has anyone looked at whatwebkit does? do not want to get into non-interoperable behaviour
17:22:47 <ChrisL> .. what exactly does webkit to to accept or reject this @rule?
17:23:21 <ChrisL> hl: if we can agree on a simple workable solution we can test it against implementations
17:23:29 <fantasai> db: The solution we use in Gecko is, if it parses into something that we know about, then we drop following @import rules
17:23:47 <ChrisL> db: in gecko, if the rule is dropped then we continue to process the @rule
17:23:59 <ChrisL> hl; easy to flag if something has been dropped
17:24:23 <ChrisL> db: an extra semicolon at end of time - would that cause the @import to be dropped?
17:24:26 <ChrisL> hl: no
17:24:28 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #css
17:24:40 <Zakim> +[Apple]
17:24:50 <Zakim> -dsinger
17:24:56 <dsinger> zakim, [apple] has dsinger
17:24:56 <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
17:25:03 <ChrisL> ee: do you drop @import after an invalid selector? eg two commas
17:25:11 <fantasai> or an unknown pseudo
17:25:17 <ChrisL> db: yes so following @import would be allowed
17:25:34 <ChrisL> bb: suggest we allow empty stements, space, cdo cdc, nothing else
17:25:40 <fantasai> s/allowed/loaded/
17:25:51 <ChrisL> s/stements/statements/
17:26:13 <ChrisL> plh: its reasonable but not forward compatible
17:26:51 <ChrisL> db: properties not an issue as they are inside the rules, . error in selctor forces rule to be dropped
17:26:58 <Lachy> Lachy has joined #css
17:27:06 <ChrisL> bb; concerned about things that could be valid in the future
17:27:44 <ChrisL> db: spec id clear on rules being ignored. if spec must be ignored it can't trigger other things
17:27:57 <ChrisL> cl: so ignored means treat as if it was never there
17:28:27 <ChrisL> db: we have that issue witha lot of things. dont want future stylesheets to break completely
17:28:53 <ChrisL> pl: issue is that if the rule becomes valid tomorrow, it stops the @import loading
17:29:37 <ChrisL> sl: this can happen today, ie8 does not support :: for example so following import will load but later, or in other browsers, it will be skipped 
17:30:52 <ChrisL> cl: how much existing content would break if the spec said nothing before @import?
17:31:00 <ChrisL> hl: little to none
17:31:12 <ChrisL> pl: would require changes in implementations though
17:31:45 <ChrisL> ee: any @rules that are dropped should be allowed before @import
17:32:20 <ChrisL> db: media queries changed syntax f @import. its not valid css2. so does  non-media-queries implementsation drop?
17:32:41 <szilles> szilles has joined #css
17:32:52 <dbaron> example was, given two rules:  @import url(foo) (min-width:800px); @import url(bar);
17:32:53 <ChrisL> pl: there are implementations that do not support media queries
17:33:03 <dbaron> implementations without media queries skip the first; with this change would we also require them to skip the second?
17:33:20 <fantasai> I strongly believe that we should allow dropped @rules before @import
17:33:35 <ChrisL> ee: we should allow any (currently invalid) @rule before @import
17:33:44 <ChrisL> sl: invalid or unknown?
17:33:48 <ChrisL> cl: unknown
17:33:54 <ChrisL> hl: can live with
17:34:31 <ChrisL> ee: and also  as bert said, empty statements and cdo cdc
17:35:05 <ChrisL> pl; odd that current @rules would block @import
17:35:17 <ChrisL> db: thats ok and we want it for forward compat
17:35:43 <ChrisL> ee: adding @rule before @import is pretty rare. less of an issue than withselectors
17:36:14 <dbaron> so if you only allow unknown @-rules and don't allow anything that's not an @-rule, don't you end up distinguishing between:
17:36:20 <dbaron> @new-rule {}
17:36:23 <ChrisL> pl: issue is known @rules not supported by older browsers
17:36:24 <dbaron> @new-rule {}; /* extra semicolon at end */
17:36:55 <ChrisL> pl: covered by emptystatement rule
17:37:12 <ChrisL> db; we have a concept of empty statement?
17:37:22 <ChrisL> bb: would need to be defined in spec, but its clear
17:37:30 <ChrisL> pl; i detect consensus
17:39:20 <plinss> the current proposal is: disallow any statements before @import except: empty statements, comment tokens, and unknown, but wel-formed @rules
17:39:46 <ChrisL> ee: unknown or invalid
17:39:54 <fantasai>  @foo;
17:39:57 <ChrisL> sl: it says unknown but wel formed
17:39:59 <fantasai> @import;
17:40:14 <fantasai> @namespace *;
17:40:30 <ChrisL> bb: grammar does not seem to allow empty statements
17:40:40 <ChrisL> ee: anything that has been ignored
17:40:54 <dbaron> yeah, maybe the extra-semicolon thing causes the next selector/rule to be ignored at present
17:41:10 <fantasai> that starts with an @sign
17:41:14 <ChrisL> s/anything/anything starting @/
17:41:17 <fantasai> @1;
17:41:21 <fantasai> @import "style.css";
17:41:45 <ChrisL> ee: @1; does not parse as an at-rule
17:41:57 <ChrisL> bb; neither a selector nor an @rule
17:42:14 <ChrisL> sl; has to parse as an @rule first, then the rule is applied
17:42:34 <ChrisL> pl: so @1; would block @import
17:42:36 <ChrisL> cl: yes
17:43:22 <ChrisL> (no objection heard)
17:43:25 <dbaron> I think it would be good to see the proposal actually written up.
17:43:45 <dbaron> This is rather hard to follow with lots of abstract statements.
17:43:57 <fantasai> I agree
17:44:07 <ChrisL> dbaron - yes, but if we resolve it then someone can get an action to write it up in detail
17:44:34 <ChrisL> bb: (error recovery - scribe missed)
17:44:34 <dbaron> I think we should action somebody to write it up without resolving.
17:45:06 <ChrisL> trackbot, status
17:45:49 <ChrisL> action; sylvian to write up the proposal on @import and unknown well formed @rules
17:45:58 <ChrisL> action: sylvian to write up the proposal on @import and unknown well formed @rules
17:45:58 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - sylvian
17:46:00 <Bert> (Issue 24 is about recovering from invalid tokens when inside a selector. The ; in @1; is such an invalid token. What to do? Skip to the next {}?)
17:46:03 <fantasai> Sylvain
17:46:15 <ChrisL> action: sylvain to write up the proposal on @import and unknown well formed @rules
17:46:16 <trackbot> Created ACTION-123 - Write up the proposal on @import and unknown well formed @rules [on Sylvain Galineau - due 2009-03-04].
17:46:38 <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-102
17:46:40 <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-106
17:46:55 <ChrisL> topic: issue-24
17:46:57 <plinss> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-24
17:46:59 <ChrisL> issue-24?
17:46:59 <trackbot> ISSUE-24 -- Does the 'background' shorthand needs both clip and origin? -- CLOSED
17:46:59 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/issues/24
17:47:19 <ChrisL> pl: not that one
17:47:41 <ChrisL> oops,css2.1 issue not tracker issue. ifnore above
17:48:05 <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Nov/0509.html
17:48:46 <ChrisL> ee: we wanted  to requie matching brackets, the change we made to fix this solves selectors but adds a new problem for 
17:48:56 <ChrisL> ... declarations
17:49:32 <ChrisL> ... makes the trap point for an invalid declaration to be astatement not a declaration
17:50:02 <ChrisL> ... so a rue with an invalid statement will be completely ignored instead of justthat statement
17:50:04 <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Dec/0091.html
17:50:53 <ChrisL> ee: so we need to go back and replace with 'statement ordeclaration'. or duplicate the rule, one for malformed statement and one for malformed declarations
17:51:23 <ChrisL> bb: statement or declaration is probably correct. problem is the section is called malformed declarations
17:51:29 <ChrisL> ee: change all occurences
17:51:41 <ChrisL> bb: would work
17:52:08 <ChrisL> bb: so if you are in a declaration, skip to end of declaration
17:52:15 <ChrisL> bb: yes, think its correct
17:52:52 <ChrisL> cl: so there are two proposals
17:53:30 <ChrisL> ee: scope of changes is only one paragraph
17:54:14 <ChrisL> bb; edge case, when inside a selector, if the token in error is at or before the start of the selector. what are you 'in'
17:54:19 <ChrisL> ee: a statement
17:54:25 <ChrisL> bb: what kind?
17:54:36 <ChrisL> ee: you don;t know at that point
17:54:48 <ChrisL> bb: so ignore that singe token?
17:55:03 <ChrisL> ee: treat it as a selector, dont ignore that token. 
17:55:19 <ChrisL> bb: talking of tokens thatare disallowed by the grammar
17:55:35 <ChrisL> bb: colon is allowed, better example ....
17:55:47 <ChrisL> ... closing brace for example
17:56:04 <ChrisL> ee: if its not an @rule, treat as aselector
17:56:19 <ChrisL> bb: fine with me. deals with future expansion
17:56:53 <ChrisL> pl: other opinions?
17:57:16 <ChrisL> bb: hard to follow without examples
17:57:21 <Zakim> -[Apple]
17:57:40 <dsinger> bye...another meeting, sorry
17:57:48 <ChrisL> pl: can we resolve here or do we need more discussion?
17:58:40 <dbaron> (Confusion about what we would be resolving on.)
17:59:38 <ChrisL> action: bert to propose specific wording on complete text for what is inserted and deleted for bracket/quote parsing
17:59:39 <trackbot> Created ACTION-124 - Propose specific wording on complete text for what is inserted and deleted for bracket/quote parsing [on Bert Bos - due 2009-03-04].
17:59:49 <ChrisL> ee: is it solved with two separate rules?
17:59:53 <ChrisL> bb: not sure
18:00:25 <ChrisL> pl: why dont you two work together onthat action so it can be closed quickly
18:00:35 <ChrisL> zakim, list attendees
18:00:36 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +1.858.354.aaaa, plinss, dsinger, +1.253.307.aabb, arronei, sylvaing, ChrisL, Bert, David_Baron, fantasai?, howcome, Melinda_Grant
18:00:40 <ChrisL> chair: Peter
18:00:57 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
18:00:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/25-css-minutes.html ChrisL
18:02:18 <Zakim> -howcome
18:02:23 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
18:02:24 <Zakim> -Melinda_Grant
18:02:24 <Zakim> -ChrisL
18:02:26 <Zakim> -plinss
18:02:27 <Zakim> -David_Baron
18:02:29 <Zakim> -Bert
18:02:33 <Zakim> -fantasai?
18:02:35 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
18:02:36 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.858.354.aaaa, plinss, dsinger, +1.253.307.aabb, arronei, sylvaing, ChrisL, Bert, David_Baron, fantasai?, howcome, Melinda_Grant
18:02:45 <ChrisL> Meeting: CSS telcon
18:02:49 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
18:02:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/25-css-minutes.html ChrisL
18:03:00 <dbaron> I assume no telecon next week since it'll be 2-3am between the first and second day of the f2f meeting
18:03:07 <ChrisL> zakim, where is 858?
18:03:07 <Zakim> North American dialing code 1.858 is California
18:03:20 <ChrisL> zakim, where is 253?
18:03:20 <Zakim> North American dialing code 1.253 is Washington
18:03:43 <arronei> 253 was arronei
18:03:43 <dbaron> 858 is San Diego
18:03:43 <ChrisL> dbaron, that seems a safe assumption
18:03:48 <plinss> chris: 858 was me
18:03:56 <dbaron> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_code_858
18:04:19 <ChrisL> ok, they are both listed explicitly in the attendance list already
18:04:47 <ChrisL> Present: plinss, dsinger,  arronei, sylvaing, ChrisL, Bert, David_Baron, fantasai, howcome, Melinda_Grant
18:04:53 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
18:04:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/25-css-minutes.html ChrisL
18:15:55 <ChrisL> regrets: szilles, daniel, emily, molly, anne
18:15:57 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
18:15:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/25-css-minutes.html ChrisL
18:16:55 <ChrisL> s/ifnore/ignore/
18:17:09 <ChrisL> s/bb;/bb:/g
18:17:36 <ChrisL> s/sl;/sl:/g
18:17:53 <ChrisL> s/pl;/pl:/g
18:18:07 <ChrisL> s/db;/db:/g
18:18:25 <ChrisL> s/hl;/hl:/g
18:18:41 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
18:18:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/25-css-minutes.html ChrisL
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