IRC log of rif on 2009-02-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:37:10 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rif
15:37:10 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:37:15 [ChrisW]
zakim, this will be rif
15:37:15 [Zakim]
ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 23 minutes
15:37:22 [ChrisW]
Chair: Chris Welty
15:37:37 [ChrisW]
Meeting: RIF Telecon 24-Feb-2008
15:37:57 [ChrisW]
15:38:10 [ChrisW]
ChrisW has changed the topic to: 24 Feb RIF Telecon, Agenda
15:38:23 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make miniutes
15:38:23 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make miniutes', ChrisW. Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:38:26 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minute
15:38:26 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minute', ChrisW. Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:38:32 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:38:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ChrisW
15:38:45 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make logs public
15:39:05 [ChrisW]
zakim, clear agenda
15:39:05 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
15:39:10 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Admin
15:39:15 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Liason
15:39:19 [ChrisW]
agenda+ F2F13
15:39:23 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Action Review
15:39:30 [ChrisW]
agenda+ ISSUE-93
15:39:32 [ChrisW]
agenda+ ISSUE-92
15:39:34 [ChrisW]
agenda+ ISSUE-80
15:39:43 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Safeness/Termination
15:39:49 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Lists...
15:39:54 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Test Cases
15:39:58 [ChrisW]
agenda+ AOB
15:40:06 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:40:06 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:42:54 [ChrisW]
Regrets: DaveReynolds HassanAitKaci
15:55:42 [csma]
csma has joined #rif
16:01:29 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
16:01:37 [Zakim]
16:01:43 [csma]
zakim, ??P11 is me
16:01:43 [Zakim]
+csma; got it
16:01:52 [LeoraMorgenstern]
LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
16:01:58 [Zakim]
16:02:06 [ChrisW]
zakim, ibm is temporarily me
16:02:06 [Zakim]
+ChrisW; got it
16:02:19 [Gary_Hallmark]
Gary_Hallmark has joined #rif
16:02:19 [Zakim]
16:02:40 [josb]
josb has joined #rif
16:02:57 [Zakim]
16:03:05 [Zakim]
16:03:32 [Harold]
Harold has joined #rif
16:04:46 [josb]
I don't see many regrets
16:04:47 [Zakim]
16:04:50 [josb]
16:05:14 [Harold]
zakim, [NRCC] is me
16:05:14 [Zakim]
+Harold; got it
16:06:22 [ChrisW]
Scribe: Harold
16:06:28 [ChrisW]
scribenick: Harold
16:06:52 [ChrisW]
16:07:00 [ChrisW]
PROPOSED: accept minutes of 17 Feb telecon
16:07:08 [ChrisW]
RESOLVED: accept minutes of 17 Feb telecon
16:07:26 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
16:07:26 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:07:37 [AxelPolleres]
AxelPolleres has joined #rif
16:08:12 [Zakim]
16:08:36 [ChrisW]
Scribe: Axel Polleres
16:08:38 [AxelPolleres]
scribe: AxelPolleres
16:08:41 [csma]
zakim, mute me
16:08:41 [Zakim]
csma should now be muted
16:08:42 [ChrisW]
scribenick: AxelPolleres
16:09:23 [AxelPolleres]
chrisw: jos, any news from OWL datatypes?
16:09:45 [AxelPolleres]
jos: many people in OWL wg in favor of disjointness. not too much new.
16:10:50 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
16:10:50 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "F2F13" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:11:06 [AxelPolleres]
axel: SPARQL telecons just started today, will be 1hr before RIF, axel might be late.
16:11:36 [AxelPolleres]
chrisw: next rif f2f ind cambridge, MA April 17-18, we need a web page.
16:11:57 [csma]
16:12:18 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
16:12:18 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Action Review" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:12:23 [AxelPolleres]
... needs to be filled.
16:13:09 [josb]
16:13:16 [csma]
zakim, unmute me
16:13:17 [Zakim]
csma should no longer be muted
16:13:18 [AxelPolleres]
ACTION 707 - completed by jos.
16:13:18 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - 707
16:13:48 [AxelPolleres]
josw: action 707 is completed.
16:14:04 [AxelPolleres]
axel: action 704 completed.
16:15:32 [AxelPolleres]
axel: action 703 pending review.
16:15:40 [josb]
can we have this discussion w/o DaveR?
16:15:54 [AxelPolleres]
csma: goes into safeness discussion later on.
16:16:17 [AxelPolleres]
... next action goes in Pres Syn discussion next week.
16:16:33 [AxelPolleres]
leora: my "whiteboard" action continued.
16:16:49 [AxelPolleres]
chrisw: shall we drop paul vincent's action?
16:17:07 [AxelPolleres]
csma: paul wanted to keeep it.... will remind him.
16:17:22 [Zakim]
+ +1.631.833.aaaa
16:17:27 [AxelPolleres]
chrisw: let's go for actions with pending review.
16:17:28 [Michael_Kifer]
Michael_Kifer has joined #rif
16:18:08 [AxelPolleres]
... action 653 can be closed.
16:18:13 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
16:18:13 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "ISSUE-93" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:18:28 [AxelPolleres]
topic: ISSUE-93
16:18:58 [ChrisW]
zakim, aaaa is Michael_Kifer
16:18:58 [Zakim]
+Michael_Kifer; got it
16:18:58 [csma]
16:19:06 [AxelPolleres]
chrisw: the issue is: should datatype iris map to datatypes themselves?
16:19:47 [ChrisW]
If a constant c \in Const is an IRI constant "d"^^rif:iri and d is a
16:19:47 [ChrisW]
datatype identifier, i.e., d \in DTS, then I_C(d) is the datatype [2]
16:19:47 [ChrisW]
identified by d.
16:20:42 [josb]
16:20:51 [AxelPolleres]
michael: I think this change is bad, because of now unforseeable consequences and lots of implied changes.
16:21:11 [AxelPolleres]
16:21:26 [josb]
16:21:59 [AxelPolleres]
jos: now that we have predicates which refer to datatypes, what datatype should the argument of the second argument be? (definition of semantics now somewhat unelegant)
16:22:33 [AxelPolleres]
... literal-equals, is-literal-of-type, etc.
16:22:39 [josb]
16:22:40 [csma]
16:22:46 [ChrisW]
ack josb
16:22:51 [josb]
isLiteralOfType("a", xsd:int)
16:23:43 [AxelPolleres]
... a strange consequence is that if you write xsd:int = xsd:string that could have weird consequences, if we equate datatypes and their uris, that would fix the semantics and make that inconsistent.
16:24:33 [AxelPolleres]
... michael seemed to hav doubts for symbol spaces being sets of constants not of objects.
16:25:21 [AxelPolleres]
michael: "1"^^ xs:string would not become the same as "1"^^xs:int if xs:int=xs:string at the moment.
16:25:27 [csma]
zakim, mute me
16:25:27 [Zakim]
csma should now be muted
16:26:36 [AxelPolleres]
... because IRIs as datatypes are not IRI constants. Jos' proposal would equate the DT-IRIs with sets of constants, doesn't make sense to me.
16:26:56 [AxelPolleres]
jos: this is not by accident. I propose to fix the definition of datatypes.
16:27:04 [ChrisW]
isLiteralOfType("a", "xsd:string"^^rif:iri)
16:27:39 [josb]
16:27:42 [AxelPolleres]
(or isLiteralOfType("a", xsd:string) )
16:27:50 [josb]
isLiteralOfType("a", "xsd:int"^^rif:iri)
16:28:12 [AxelPolleres]
16:29:05 [AxelPolleres]
16:29:54 [csma]
ack Axel
16:34:10 [josb]
16:34:56 [AxelPolleres]
jos: the second argument should be a datatype, i.e. the iris of datatypes should have a fixed interpreetation.
16:35:29 [AxelPolleres]
michael: this is what I wanted to avoid.
16:36:09 [AxelPolleres]
... I suggest to have the second argumant of isLiteralOfType being literals, I consider the current def wrong.
16:36:26 [AxelPolleres]
... e.g. use xs:string.
16:36:34 [csma]
k csma
16:36:39 [csma]
ack csma
16:36:59 [josb]
so it boils down to who finds what more elegant
16:37:01 [AxelPolleres]
csma: what is the definition in XML schema?
16:37:30 [AxelPolleres]
... we cannot change the definiition of XML schema datatypes.
16:37:46 [csma]
isLiteralOfType(xsd:string, rif:iri)
16:38:17 [josb]
16:38:22 [josb]
16:38:34 [AxelPolleres]
chrisw: we don't change XML schema DTs, but only talk about rif:iri here.
16:38:56 [csma]
zakim, mute me
16:38:58 [Zakim]
csma should now be muted
16:39:17 [AxelPolleres]
michael: I sent a proposal per mail (please paste link)
16:39:27 [MoZ]
MoZ has joined #rif
16:39:39 [josb]
s/sent/can send/
16:39:50 [AxelPolleres]
... basically, second argument should be a (string) literal.
16:40:54 [AxelPolleres]
What's wrong about keeping it like we have it (side question)?
16:41:24 [AxelPolleres]
16:41:27 [AxelPolleres]
16:43:41 [AxelPolleres]
jos: why not do it in the same way as RDF and OWL (where URIs denote datatypes)?
16:44:03 [AxelPolleres]
... we don't want xs:int, etc. to denote anything.
16:44:51 [AxelPolleres]
p("1"^^a) :- a=xs:int, p(1)
16:45:15 [AxelPolleres]
chrisw: maybe we should move on...
16:45:20 [ChrisW]
16:45:24 [ChrisW]
ack axel
16:45:41 [josb]
16:47:00 [ChrisW]
ack jos
16:47:04 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
16:47:04 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "ISSUE-92" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:47:18 [csma]
16:47:25 [AxelPolleres]
josb: both michael and I don't like the current definition, I personally would prefer even michael's solution to the current definition.
16:49:06 [josb]
16:49:12 [AxelPolleres]
16:50:18 [josb]
16:50:53 [ChrisW]
ack j
16:50:55 [josb]
we allow the equivalent forms External( func:concat( str1, str2) ) and External( func:concat( str1 str2 str3 ) )
16:55:50 [josb]
In my view it does change the bld syntax
16:59:48 [Harold]
Polyadic syntax for associative binary functions should be not a problem.
17:01:16 [josb]
17:02:23 [AxelPolleres]
axel, michael, jos: discussing multiple arity of external functions such as func:concat.
17:03:06 [csma]
zakim, mute me
17:03:06 [Zakim]
csma was already muted, csma
17:03:25 [AxelPolleres]
jos: originally the requirement for fixed arity and disjoint names came from the same restriction in FO-logic definitions.
17:03:58 [csma]
17:04:04 [josb]
17:04:30 [AxelPolleres]
chrisw: the quickest way to go is to leave it the way to go is to leave it the way it is and reword DTB just to reflect that this is just for explanatory purposes in DTB.
17:05:12 [csma]
ack csma
17:05:16 [AxelPolleres]
josb: quite sure that there are no problems if we do it for external preds/funcs, but not sure about logical preds/funcs.
17:05:46 [AxelPolleres]
csma: do not remember implementation discussion at this point.
17:06:04 [Michael_Kifer]
zakim, who is on the phone
17:06:05 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who is on the phone', Michael_Kifer
17:06:11 [Michael_Kifer]
zakim, who is on the phone?
17:06:14 [Zakim]
On the phone I see csma, ChrisW, josb, Gary, Leora_Morgenstern, Harold, AxelPolleres, Michael_Kifer
17:06:30 [AxelPolleres]
... we are bound to find that problem (of oveload) many times, maybe we should fix it once and for all.
17:06:56 [AxelPolleres]
chrisw: is there anyone on the phone objecting arbitrary arity for anything?
17:07:25 [AxelPolleres]
... (anything means logical and external), implementations seem to support it perfectly well.
17:07:42 [AxelPolleres]
... noboddy objects, something to think about.
17:07:45 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
17:07:46 [Zakim]
agendum 8. "Safeness/Termination" taken up [from ChrisW]
17:08:15 [AxelPolleres]
axel: agree that we can't leave it like that.
17:08:28 [josb]
17:08:41 [AxelPolleres]
s/it/the description of multiple arity/
17:09:24 [ChrisW]
zakim, list agenda
17:09:24 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
17:09:25 [Zakim]
8. Safeness/Termination [from ChrisW]
17:09:25 [Zakim]
9. Lists... [from ChrisW]
17:09:26 [Zakim]
10. Test Cases [from ChrisW]
17:09:26 [Zakim]
11. AOB [from ChrisW]
17:09:47 [AxelPolleres]
csma: we should discuss issue-80 first.
17:09:58 [ChrisW]
TOPIC: Issue-80
17:10:10 [csma]
17:10:29 [csma]
zakim, mute me
17:10:29 [Zakim]
csma should now be muted
17:10:47 [AxelPolleres]
last mail on that:
17:11:31 [josb]
17:12:27 [ChrisW]
ack j
17:15:22 [AxelPolleres]
chrisw: generic comparison should only work if datatypes are the same.
17:15:57 [josb]
my feeling: not have generic comparison
17:16:00 [AxelPolleres]
axel: but if not, should they be false or undefined? (currently false)
17:16:24 [csma]
17:16:29 [josb]
if we have them: get rid of specific ones and make sure the generic ones behave exactly like the specific ones do now
17:16:30 [csma]
ack csma
17:17:32 [AxelPolleres]
csma: do we have an equality predicate that does not do propagation?
17:17:43 [AxelPolleres]
chrisw: yes "="
17:18:09 [AxelPolleres]
csma: that makes is-literal-equal redundant?
17:18:42 [AxelPolleres]
"Editor's Note: pred:literal-equal seems to be partially redundant w.r.t the usual equality in BLD."
17:18:44 [csma]
zakim, mute me
17:18:44 [Zakim]
csma should now be muted
17:20:51 [AxelPolleres]
jos: our current equality and neither is-literal-equal does not cover "=" in Xpath/XQuery, but the specific ones do
17:23:55 [AxelPolleres]
jos, it is not talking about 1.000 = 1.00, is it?
17:24:09 [AxelPolleres]
jos: equality is not identity in XML schema.
17:24:13 [ChrisW]
action: jos to find an example of equality between datatypes within the same value space that is not identity
17:24:13 [trackbot]
Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - jos
17:24:13 [trackbot]
Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jdebruij2, jderoo)
17:24:19 [AxelPolleres]
... I will draft an example.
17:24:19 [ChrisW]
action: josb to find an example of equality between datatypes within the same value space that is not identity
17:24:19 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-710 - Find an example of equality between datatypes within the same value space that is not identity [on Jos de Bruijn - due 2009-03-03].
17:24:57 [josb]
17:25:27 [AxelPolleres]
chrisw: I have no problem with literal-equal being redundant, any problems with literal-not-equal.
17:25:40 [AxelPolleres]
josb: I would rather want to drop them both.
17:25:46 [AxelPolleres]
17:26:06 [ChrisW]
ack ax
17:28:15 [Zakim]
17:28:20 [Zakim]
17:28:21 [Zakim]
17:28:21 [Zakim]
17:28:24 [Zakim]
17:28:26 [ChrisW]
zakim, list attendees
17:28:26 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been csma, ChrisW, josb, Gary, Leora_Morgenstern, Harold, AxelPolleres, +1.631.833.aaaa, Michael_Kifer
17:28:27 [AxelPolleres]
axel: can probably dial in next week earlier, but not all of the time.
17:28:32 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make logs public
17:28:42 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:28:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ChrisW
17:28:59 [Zakim]
17:29:02 [csma]
zakim, unmute me
17:29:02 [Zakim]
csma should no longer be muted
17:29:06 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone
17:29:08 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
17:29:10 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who is on the phone', ChrisW
17:29:11 [Zakim]
On the phone I see csma, ChrisW
17:31:18 [sandro]
Yes, Chris?
17:31:38 [ChrisW]
when can you do a rif chairs meeting
17:32:00 [sandro]
tomorrow 8am is okay
17:32:07 [ChrisW]
great, ttyt
17:32:15 [csma]
ok for me too
17:32:27 [Zakim]
17:32:28 [sandro]
17:32:29 [Zakim]
17:32:30 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
17:32:32 [Zakim]
Attendees were csma, ChrisW, josb, Gary, Leora_Morgenstern, Harold, AxelPolleres, +1.631.833.aaaa, Michael_Kifer
17:32:49 [csma]
talk to you tomorrow, 8am/2pm, Sandro
17:33:56 [sandro]
18:04:16 [sandro]
sandro has joined #rif
18:36:15 [csma]
csma has left #rif
19:25:15 [MoZ]
MoZ has joined #rif