IRC log of xhtml on 2009-02-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:40:06 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
14:40:07 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
14:40:07 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #xhtml
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Zakim, this will be IA_XHTML2
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ok, trackbot; I see IA_XHTML2()9:45AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
14:40:10 [trackbot]
Meeting: XHTML2 Working Group Teleconference
14:40:10 [trackbot]
Date: 18 February 2009
14:40:42 [Steven]
14:40:46 [Steven]
Chair: Steven
14:40:59 [Steven]
Regrets: Roland
14:41:58 [oedipus]
Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
14:42:02 [oedipus]
ScribeNick: oedipus
14:43:23 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:43:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
14:43:32 [ShaneM]
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14:44:45 [Zakim]
IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has now started
14:44:52 [Zakim]
14:45:20 [oedipus]
14:45:23 [Zakim]
14:45:30 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-617
14:45:30 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
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14:46:15 [mgylling]
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14:46:35 [alessio]
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14:47:07 [Zakim]
14:47:23 [mgylling]
Zakim, ??P4 is mgylling
14:47:23 [Zakim]
+mgylling; got it
14:47:40 [oedipus]
TOPIC: News, Notes & Agenda Additions
14:47:59 [Zakim]
14:48:07 [alessio]
zakim, ??P6
14:48:07 [Zakim]
I don't understand '??P6', alessio
14:48:12 [alessio]
zakim, ??P6 is Alessio
14:48:12 [Zakim]
+Alessio; got it
14:48:28 [oedipus]
SP: sorry sent out agenda late;
14:48:59 [oedipus]
GJR: action item update -
14:49:45 [oedipus]
GJR: we voting on sending ARIA 1.0 to last call today
14:50:01 [oedipus]
GJR: MCooper will provide Shane with updated info
14:50:15 [oedipus]
SP: update at last call? should it not express only what is in rec?
14:50:19 [oedipus]
SM: doesn't
14:50:33 [oedipus]
SM: reflects what is in ARIA WD, needs to be updated to conform
14:50:51 [oedipus]
SP: ok, fair enough
14:51:47 [oedipus]
SP: action item - send PER transition request -- done; will keep my eye on it; should hear within a week
14:51:57 [oedipus]
SP: action to write intro to XHTML2
14:52:02 [Steven]
14:52:05 [oedipus]
SP: created very draf first version
14:52:50 [oedipus]
SP: a) very early draft; b) in "telegram" style - listed what needs to be explained and intent of each section; sections need populating; comments on structure welcome
14:53:41 [oedipus]
SP: composed of lots of pieces; have to check RDFa example for right triples; bit about XFrames that probably needs to be cut, but is placeholder until we decide what to do about XFrames; sketched out XForms section
14:53:53 [oedipus]
SP: any comments welcome
14:54:44 [oedipus]
GJR: is still open (didn't finish - hope to do so today)
14:55:18 [oedipus]
14:55:26 [oedipus]
14:58:39 [oedipus]
SP: word level for INS and DEL - normal to do DEL on false plural - dogs = dog<DEL>s</DEL>
14:59:44 [oedipus]
GJR: best practice, should point out at least the dangers of using internal INS and DEL for rendering especially alternate rendering
15:00:13 [oedipus]
GJR: no, i still need to finish compiling the document
15:00:36 [oedipus]
GJR: will email list when ready to review
15:03:18 [oedipus]
SP: voting on going to last call
15:03:22 [oedipus]
GJR: correct
15:03:59 [oedipus]
GJR: plan is to get through as soon as possible -- 3 weeks from date of announcement, probably a week from friday
15:04:19 [oedipus]
latest ARIA editor's draft:
15:05:15 [ShaneM]
I suspect a 3 week last call is a little naive - the rest of the membership needs to read the doc.
15:05:24 [oedipus]
15:06:08 [ShaneM]
Off topic: quote of the day (from Mark Birbeck):
15:06:08 [ShaneM]
There are two aspects to this debate. Some people want RDFa to be added to HTML5, and that browsers do something with it. I'd love to see that too, but then I'd also like to solve world hunger, and teach the world to sing.
15:06:45 [oedipus]
15:07:05 [oedipus]
SP: amazed at how 1 thread generated so much discussion
15:07:55 [oedipus]
SP: Manu reported back from conference support and interest in RDFa; discussion devolved into HTML5 versus RDFa argument
15:08:13 [oedipus]
SP: quote of the day right on topic!
15:09:37 [oedipus]
SP: discussion is one i had last year at TPAC when i attended HTML WG to discuss RDFa and HTML5; Henri Sivonen still singing the same song against RDFa -- counter arguments to use of RDFa is ; attributes won't be removed from DOM when document parsed, so RDFa will just work; only problem is validation, and HTML5 doesn't have a validation story
15:09:41 [oedipus]
15:09:59 [oedipus]
SM: generic validation -
15:10:21 [oedipus]
SM: thread traffic today - HS' argument interesting; HTML5 does remove attributes from info stack
15:10:24 [oedipus]
SP: which ones?
15:10:32 [oedipus]
SM: anyone that is in xmlns
15:11:40 [oedipus]
s/use of RDFa is ;/use of RDFa is extensibility, namespacing, and control
15:11:49 [oedipus]
SP: how plan to declare version of HTML5
15:11:53 [oedipus]
SM: are no versions
15:12:03 [oedipus]
SP: either this is the last HTML ever, or need to solve problem
15:12:30 [oedipus]
SP: at some point in future going to have to have another iteration of HTML which will need to be validated; could then have profile to validate HTML5 + RDFa
15:13:17 [oedipus]
SM: yesterday's quote of the day from TAG discussion on versioning; HTML5 Issue 41 - precludes extensibility in HTML5
15:13:23 [ShaneM]
David Orchard said: This is also directly related to HTML5 WG issue 41, which is that HTML5 currently precludes support for distributed extensibility.
15:13:24 [oedipus]
SM: source david orchard
15:14:01 [oedipus]
GJR: no support for my "role for HTML5" proposal -
15:14:19 [oedipus]
SM: problem is don't want distributed extensibility - want a locked-down developer-centric language
15:14:35 [oedipus]
SP: done our best to make XHTML markup useable by everyone
15:15:21 [oedipus]
q+ to say sam ruby has action to discuss HTML5 and XHTML alignment - Janina Sajka, co-chair of PF should be at meeting
15:15:25 [oedipus]
15:15:39 [oedipus]
ack owe
15:15:42 [oedipus]
ack oe
15:15:42 [Zakim]
oedipus, you wanted to say sam ruby has action to discuss HTML5 and XHTML alignment - Janina Sajka, co-chair of PF should be at meeting
15:16:59 [oedipus]
SP: haven't received request from Sam
15:17:25 [oedipus]
15:17:48 [oedipus]
SP: good approach
15:19:08 [oedipus]
GJR: would like Janina Sajka to be included in meeting
15:19:28 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:19:28 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
15:20:39 [oedipus]
q+ to say HTML5 new PWD pushed without consultation with WG
15:21:30 [oedipus]
ack oe
15:21:30 [Zakim]
oedipus, you wanted to say HTML5 new PWD pushed without consultation with WG
15:22:56 [Steven]
15:25:01 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:25:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
15:27:04 [oedipus]
15:27:54 [oedipus]
15:27:58 [oedipus]
SP: objection from DanC about 1.0 PER
15:27:59 [Steven]
15:28:17 [oedipus]
SP: stated not enough time for community review
15:28:30 [oedipus]
s/stated not/DanC stated not/
15:29:09 [oedipus]
15:29:38 [oedipus]
SM: make sure reviewing right draft of Media Types (16 January 2009)
15:29:47 [oedipus]
SP: reference from normative section to the document
15:30:26 [oedipus]
"Many people want to use XHTML to author their web pages, but are confused about the best ways to deliver those pages in such a way that they will be processed correctly by various user agents. This Note contains suggestions about how to format XHTML to ensure it is maximally portable, and how to deliver XHTML to various user agents - even those that do not yet support XHTML natively. This document is intended to be used by document authors who want to use XHTM
15:31:02 [oedipus]
SP: complaint is in reference to Section 5
15:31:20 [oedipus]
SM: think previous REC had same pointer -- pointed to appendix C, now points to Media Types
15:31:44 [oedipus]
SP: was concern about a normative section pointed to from an informative section
15:31:51 [oedipus]
SP: what is normative about Section 5?
15:31:53 [oedipus]
SM: nothing
15:32:02 [oedipus]
SP: can we mark that "This section is informative"?
15:32:52 [oedipus]
SP: section 5 should be non-normative, and provide pointer to January 2009 draft
15:33:15 [oedipus]
SP: definitely have had opportunity to review
15:34:50 [Steven]
I presented it to the HCG
15:34:56 [oedipus]
RESOLVED: reply to DanC's comments on PER of XHTML 1.0 to state that Section 5 (of XHTML 1.0 PEF) is non-normative and provide pointer to 16 January 2006 draft of XHTML Media Types - Second Edition
15:35:21 [oedipus]
15:35:47 [oedipus]
TOPIC: Burning Issues
15:35:59 [oedipus]
SP: discussion of XHTML2 and HTML5 combined?
15:37:20 [oedipus]
SP: at Forms f2f, realized don't have dates for virtual face2face for XHTML2 WG -- do we want to plan a longer session (day, day and a half) to work on XHTML2 draft
15:37:41 [oedipus]
SP: need Roland to set but should start thinking about timing
15:37:50 [oedipus]
AC: agree
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15:38:24 [Zakim]
15:38:27 [Zakim]
15:38:29 [Zakim]
15:38:29 [Zakim]
15:38:38 [oedipus]
zakim, please part
15:38:38 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Gregory_Rosmaita, McCarron, Steven, mgylling, Alessio
15:38:38 [Zakim]
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15:38:43 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:38:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
15:41:40 [alessio]
15:43:49 [oedipus]
rrsagent, please part
15:43:49 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items