See also: IRC log
<oeddie> janina, you need to have zakim dial you again - wait MC is calling you
<oeddie> chair: Janina_Sajka
<oeddie> JS: some discussion in PF HTML5 Issue caucus call on friday about @longdesc
<scribe> scribe: MichaelC
<oeddie> JS: automated image analysis hueristics canard
<oeddie> (contains proposed mapping for @alt to LEGEND and @longdesc to proposed DESC child of media specific elements
<Joshue> JOC: It would be a great idea to have something like that to go to the HTML 5 WG with.
<oeddie> gregg, that's the last HTML Caucus call
Summary of proposition: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-cg/2009JanMar/0106.html
RESOLUTION: We want HTML5 to provide mechanisms for providing text alternatives. (discussed 4 February)
<oeddie> plus 1
<oeddie> latest HTML5 draft: http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/
<Zakim> Joshue, you wanted to say that HTML should natively support accessibility
<oeddie> also, native support is part of WAI-PF's first official communique with the HTML WG
<Joshue> zakim. mute me
gv: is ARIA going to be taken into HTML 5?
mc: understand it's an editorial task to just wholesale take it in
gv: concern about source of expertise for accessibility guidance in the HTML spec
<oeddie> that is correct, matt
mm: note HTML WG has dependency on PFWG for accessibility advice; we're just asking them to follow up on this
sf: the examples in HTML draft haven't been produced by WG, just the editor
jr: our approach should take into account an expectation that HTML 5 process won't change
<Joshue> Big +1 to Jan
so recommend terse phrases for spec
gv: that should work, as long as nobody decides to require something that goes beyond what we've advised, and have to write it up
<oeddie> GJR notes that the aria integration is part of the prototyped HTML5: The Markup Language and NOT part of 2009-02-12 HTML5 draft (http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/)
<oeddie> move on
gr: propose we consider HTML4 @alt like HTML 5 figure/legend, and HTML 4 @longdesc like HTML 5 desc
gv: sounds like an accessibility support issue; those would be sufficient techinques
<oeddie> "Towards A Unified Approach to HTML5's Media Specific Elements, version 0.1"
aria-labelledby and aria-describedby would be alternate techniques, if accessibility supported
straw proposal: longdesc not be included in HTML 5
(supplanted by ARIA)
WCAG would accept it as long as it remains accessibility supported
is it ok for aria-describedby to reference something that itself provides a link to an external description?
<oeddie> 3 points: 1) need for terse and long descriptors; 2) need mapping for backwards compatibility; 3) still unsure if can reference a label or description that is not contained in same document as object being labelled or described by use of the "rel" attribute with the A (anchor) element
gr: <see above note>
concern that aria-describedby referencing a link sounds like a roundabout d-link
<oeddie> we need to mock up tests -- i volunteer
gv: gets around the fact that ARIA doesn't provide a way to reference external description
gr: XHTML 2 WG would like ARIA to support CURIE in ARIA 2
<oeddie> gregg, CURIES: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Drafts/Overview.html#curie
joc: <comment to follow>
js: sounds like we do want a mechanism to reference a description in an external resource
<Joshue> JOC:If Longdesc content could be buffered by a UA like a screen reader and then activated when the user chooses using a predefined key in the AT. This would be a more elegant solution.
gv: does look like something we overlooked; would hope ARIA would provide this
js/mc: sounds like a LC comment on ARIA
<oeddie> "HTML 5 Issue: Image Equivalent Content" (http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/LongdescRetention) - "Requirement: In situations where images are not available to the user (because of disability, choice, or UA limitation) there is a need for a mechanism that presents equivalent content to the user, either as an alternative to the image or in a side-by-side exposition. Equivalent content is not, nor should it be, and either/or proposition, and its method of exposition should
<Joshue> JOC: Could ARIA properties reference external URI's etc in the future?
gv: why doesn't ARIA have external references?
mc: believe it was to make documents self-contained
js: it's clear we want @longdesc-like functionality and might want it in ARIA, notwithstanding that design approach
gr: <see above comment>
<Zakim> oeddie, you wanted to say a lot of thought excercises on long descriptors and exposition methods at http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/LongdescRetention
gr: user agent preferences
gv: how does UA know?
gr: this is why @longdesc is still part of spec
gv: isn't it obsoleted?
gr: above is one of several competing proposals
attempt is to provide a consistent content model + backward compatibility
uses desc element, which can contain anything
gv: isn't that same as using @aria-describedby?
gr: wanted to cover use case for side-by-side, not just either-or- exposition of alternative content
gv: so for @aria-describedby, shouldn't necessarily jump to it, but be able to pull up its content without moving
if the target is a link, you can just follow it, and UA present it in a side presentation
<oeddie> phone problems
<oeddie> can hear but you can't hear me
gr: <some thing about @src global attribute>
gv: in this proposal, @aria-describedby and desc would behave in similar manner, and would be parallel techinques
<oeddie> describedby and DESC should be indentical content
following behaviour suggested above
<oeddie> agree with GV
then we wouldn't need to add external reference to ARIA
<oeddie> Role module is extensible
sf: target of @aria-describedby could have a role that would guide UA behaviour
jr: agree we don't want new features that are redundant with what we already have
the proposal for how to display things is up to UA
<Zakim> oeddie, you wanted to say there is a proposal in front of XHTML2 and HTML WG to add "for" to the global attribute list for both MLs
let's focus on the information architecture to support
gr: there is a proposal to have @for=IDREF as a global attribute
so UA could handle
gv: ability to invoke description without leaving your place an important aspect of these proposals
<oeddie> proposed and existing solutions: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/LongdescRetention#head-cebbc654950a1139904c489c40c021ad3a200ddd
looks like we have workable approaches
therefore circle back to deprecating longdesc, in favour of ARIA
<oeddie> that's a LOT of ifs...
<oeddie> MC: think getting to conclusion; wrap up and comb hair out of cat later
js: don't hear change to the previous resolution about deprecating longdesc
we've clarified need to reference xsd:anyURI somehow
but that seems covered
<greggvanderheiden> If ARIA describedby is adopted by HTML5 and describedby can support a link to content off page then Longdesc should be deprecated or obsoleted.
<Joshue> JOC: thats fine with me.
<oeddie> virtual face2face
RESOLUTION: If ARIA describedby is adopted by HTML5 and describedby can support a link to content off page then Longdesc should be deprecated or obsoleted.
<oeddie> actively discussing @alt - the action to report in HTML WG is on me
<oeddie> i agree with steve
<oeddie> beware of false deadlines and sending mixed messages
<discussion of communicating status to HTML WG>
<Joshue> JOC: I think that the issue is largely a user agent issue.
<Joshue> The language should facilitate semantic and other associations and the rest is up the technology that interacts with it.
<oeddie> good point, JOC
<oeddie> jan, you don't buy the use cases at: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/LongdescRetention#head-30d2dc4fc6689c2e76c9626f3ea86b9023d8499c
<oeddie> there is also the case where the long descriptor is actually an ARIA-enabled widget -- such as a geneological tree or flow chart
<oeddie> provide same ah-hah! eureka moment through use of a widget as long descriptor for a static flow chart
<oeddie> that's what global for/id associations could do, jan
<oeddie> friday, 20 February 2009 at 10:00 A.M. EST
<oeddie> JS: summary and headers next wednesday; alt on friday
<oeddie> we can preclude that by getting "role" supported in HTML5 - "role" for machine processing, "alt" for human processing
<oeddie> cascade of alternatives through programmatic associations
<oeddie> alt must be neaningful, role value is machine-parsable
<oeddie> alt for humans, role for machine
<oeddie> ACTION: GJR and JR - work on wording for discussion on friday [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/18-cg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - GJR
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.133 of Date: 2008/01/18 18:48:51 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/elegeant/elegant/ Found Scribe: MichaelC Inferring ScribeNick: MichaelC Default Present: Cooper, Gregory_Rosmaita, Janina, Joshue, Gez_Lemon, Matt_May, Steve_Faulkner, Gregg_Vanderheiden, Ben_Caldwell, Jan_Richards, Janina_Sajka Present: Cooper Gregory_Rosmaita Janina Joshue Gez_Lemon Matt_May Steve_Faulkner Gregg_Vanderheiden Ben_Caldwell Jan_Richards Janina_Sajka Agenda: http://www.w3.org/mid/20090217184130.GB3809@sonata.rednote.net Got date from IRC log name: 18 Feb 2009 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2009/02/18-cg-minutes.html People with action items: gjr WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]