IRC log of xhtml on 2009-02-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:41:55 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #xhtml

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/02/11-xhtml-irc

14:41:57 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs public

14:41:57 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #xhtml

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Zakim, this will be IA_XHTML2

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ok, trackbot; I see IA_XHTML2()9:45AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes

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Meeting: XHTML2 Working Group Teleconference

14:42:00 [trackbot]

Date: 11 February 2009

14:42:44 [Zakim]

IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has now started

14:42:51 [Zakim]

+??P17

14:43:13 [Zakim]

+Roland

14:43:15 [Zakim]

+Gregory_Rosmaita

14:43:15 [mgylling]

zakim, ??P17 is mgylling

14:43:16 [oedipus]

Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita

14:43:16 [Zakim]

+mgylling; got it

14:43:22 [oedipus]

ScribeNick: oedipus

14:43:35 [oedipus]

Regrets: Mark_Birbeck, Shane_McCarron

14:43:56 [Roland]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Feb/0024.html

14:43:57 [oedipus]

previous: http://www.w3.org/2009/02/04-xhtml-minutes.html

14:44:15 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:44:15 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/11-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

14:44:42 [oedipus]

Chair: Roland_Merrick

14:45:08 [Zakim]

+ +0468645aaaa

14:45:11 [Zakim]

- +0468645aaaa

14:45:50 [oedipus]

Open Actions: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/actions/open

14:46:00 [Zakim]

+ +0468645aabb

14:46:10 [oedipus]

TOPIC: Getting Started & Agenda Additions/Requests

14:46:23 [Tina]

Zakim, aabb is Tina

14:46:23 [Zakim]

+Tina; got it

14:46:32 [oedipus]

zakim, who is here?

14:46:32 [Zakim]

On the phone I see mgylling, Roland, Gregory_Rosmaita, Tina

14:46:34 [Zakim]

On IRC I see RRSAgent, mgylling, Tina, Roland, oedipus, trackbot

14:46:58 [oedipus]

RS: steven may on be able to participate via IRC due to attendance at Forms F2F

14:47:38 [oedipus]

GJR: ensure alignment of ARIA roles and XHTML Vocab document - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Feb/0029.html

14:47:48 [oedipus]

TOPIC: Action Item Review

14:48:14 [oedipus]

RS: not done the XML Events 2 related actions; shane not here to update

14:48:24 [oedipus]

RS: not sure of status of steven's open actions

14:48:41 [oedipus]

s/RS:/RM:/G

14:48:53 [oedipus]

RM: haven't seen the transition request

14:49:05 [oedipus]

GJR: shane mentioned that he had 4 PER drafts in his regrets notice

14:49:24 [oedipus]

RM: don't think any actions can close today

14:49:45 [oedipus]

TOPIC: ARIA and XHTML Vocab

14:50:17 [oedipus]

GJR: vocab doc has gotten out of sync with the ARIA spec; PFWG will be voting today to send the draft at http://www.w3.org/wai/pf/aria

14:50:37 [oedipus]

GJR: noticed that there were at least 1 or 2 roles missing -- including the "math" role

14:50:46 [oedipus]

GJR: i emailed shane about it directly

14:52:36 [oedipus]

RS: point of section is whatever ARIA wants it to be; so what ARIA says, that's what they should be

14:52:46 [oedipus]

GJR: didn't want to fall through the cracks

14:53:11 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/wai/pf/aria

14:53:29 [oedipus]

10 February 2009 Editor's Draft of ARIA

14:54:47 [oedipus]

GJR: so far only one missing for sure is "math" -- GJR will quintuple check

14:55:49 [oedipus]

ACTION: GJR - ensure that XHTML Vocab Document in sync with ARIA 1.0 Last Call draft are in sync

14:55:49 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-49 - - ensure that XHTML Vocab Document in sync with ARIA 1.0 Last Call draft are in sync [on Gregory Rosmaita - due 2009-02-18].

14:55:56 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:55:56 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/11-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

14:56:07 [oedipus]

RM: ARIA document to go to last call

14:57:47 [oedipus]

MG: the ARIA spec doesn't rec the CURIE spec, right? impllications?

14:58:15 [oedipus]

GJR: as i understand it, is that the CURIE spec when we were drafting ARIA was under an existential assault

14:59:45 [oedipus]

GJR: bin of ideas for ARIA 2.0 includes support for CURIE

14:59:57 [oedipus]

RM: in default namespace -- doesn't need referrencing

15:00:13 [oedipus]

MG: all ARIA roles are going into the XHTML Vocab document

15:00:28 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab/

15:00:43 [oedipus]

RM: yes

15:01:10 [oedipus]

RM: pragmatic move on both WG's parts

15:01:26 [oedipus]

TOPIC: XHTML 2 Issues

15:01:53 [oedipus]

RM: shane not here, so may be tricky; could open discussion on INS, DEL and marking up changes in documents

15:02:42 [oedipus]

MG: discussed a few telecons ago -- decision to reintroduce elements rather than define attribute values

15:02:51 [oedipus]

RM: where should allow INS and DEL to be specified

15:02:55 [oedipus]

TH: inline content

15:03:16 [oedipus]

TH: avoid unecessary SPAN to mark change with attribute

15:03:43 [oedipus]

s/rather than define/in addition to defining

15:03:53 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:03:53 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/11-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

15:04:34 [oedipus]

RM: not sure that we came to firm conclusion; INS and DEL - what is its scope - can it nest new paragraph, new div, etc.

15:04:47 [oedipus]

RM: put into text module was suggestion -- same module with paragraph

15:05:04 [oedipus]

GJR: so are we discussing retention of the "Flow" element concept

15:05:53 [oedipus]

RM: that's the difficulty; can only be used in specific places; if on containers, should allow properties on containers (sections or DIVs) that say this section is inserted or this is deleted

15:06:15 [oedipus]

RM: might want both ways to do this; just add attribute to structural elements

15:06:51 [oedipus]

GJR: a) a means of marking editorial changes;

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b) a means of classifying an editorial change;

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c) a means of conveying when and by whom the change was affected;

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d) a recognition that things are not black and white, but a thousand

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shades of grey

15:07:48 [oedipus]

GJR: basis of my position is that a single element would be the easiest solution

15:08:21 [oedipus]

RM: my experience in XML spec easier to say, "here i am opening a new DIV and add attribute rather than using an INS element

15:08:38 [oedipus]

GJR: MOD or whatever would be the structural element

15:08:44 [Roland]

<div diff="add"> . . .

15:09:01 [Roland]

<div><ins> . . .

15:09:11 [oedipus]

TH: still good idea to avoid semantically empty elements in examples -- can we use P instead of DIV?

15:09:39 [oedipus]

RM: might consider semantically meaningless, but used all over the place

15:09:48 [Roland]

<p diff="add"> . . .

15:09:55 [oedipus]

GJR: a lot of mashups will be served with DIVs or as DIVs

15:09:58 [Roland]

<p><ins> . . .

15:10:32 [oedipus]

TH: can use DIV to cover a large section of modified text; too much use of SPAN and DIV --

15:10:57 [oedipus]

RM: easier to think that i need new paragraph and property of P added and add other info with RDFa in the paragraph

15:11:17 [oedipus]

TH: only problem is more than one attribute needed: who did it; what was changed?

15:11:21 [oedipus]

RM: have that in RDFa

15:11:26 [oedipus]

GJR: agree

15:11:35 [oedipus]

TH: how expressed on specific element, such as P

15:12:03 [oedipus]

TH: does RDFa have something that says this is what was, this is what new paragraph is; need more info than just "this has been changesd

15:12:29 [oedipus]

RM: much easier to use INS and DEL -- simple binary straightforward

15:12:50 [oedipus]

GJR: no problem with INS and DEL, but think need MOD

15:13:28 [oedipus]

TH: inline, use MOD with attribute to state how modified; want to avoid using attributes only for this so authors are tempted to use SPAN and DIV to indicate; INS and DEL or MOD fine with me

15:13:45 [oedipus]

GJR: understand and appreciate caution

15:14:30 [oedipus]

TH: MOD gets complicated - this is added this is deleted; MOD needs 2 sets of data -- what was, and what is; if can do with RDFa, fine, but don't think need that much complexity

15:14:59 [oedipus]

GJR: MOD springs from the diffuclty i have always when attempting to parse auarally a DIFF docuemnt

15:15:22 [oedipus]

GJR: was successful in getting the W3C DIFF generator to use INS and DEL instead of SPAN

15:16:03 [oedipus]

GJR: for spelling or grammar change do you really want to have both the deleted and inserted text even though 90% of content is same?

15:16:48 [oedipus]

TH: would say yes, based on fact that CSS word-wrap property -- MS suggests as arbitrary break point; in some languages, that can change contents -- can't do unless have dictionary in UA

15:17:22 [oedipus]

TH: spelling change in document very subtle, but can completely change meaning of paragraph, would like to know what is there -- especially if something there, referred to and chaanged again

15:17:53 [oedipus]

GJR: one strategy for that is to use the global @src to point to the earlier wording in an earlier draft for minor edits

15:18:21 [oedipus]

TH: almost agree there -- INS and DEL or MOD are not set up for complicated document history

15:18:51 [oedipus]

TH: agree with idea - use INS and DEL add history by linking to it, need to say this isn't a regular @src but a link to the history

15:19:14 [oedipus]

TH: MOD with @src would be handled differently than on other elements

15:19:21 [oedipus]

RM: number of different themes

15:19:21 [Roland]

<p diff="add">I will.</p><p diff="del">I will not.</p>

15:19:21 [Roland]

<p diff="chg">I will.</p>

15:19:21 [Roland]

<ins>I will.</ins><del>I will not.</del>

15:19:21 [Roland]

<mod>I will.</mod>

15:19:53 [oedipus]

RM: INS and DEL, INS, DEL and MOD, or just MOD -- MOD alone not sufficient

15:20:07 [oedipus]

RM: rather mark add this delete that

15:20:40 [oedipus]

RM: MOD or @chg don't know what was there before, just know changed; don't have situation if have binary INS and DEL

15:21:01 [oedipus]

RM: integrated and deleted in one place with INS and DEL, but not with MOD

15:21:21 [oedipus]

TH: RM's example very good; like to have revision handling mechanism spelt out

15:21:34 [oedipus]

RM: process of change -- delete or add things -- that's how keyboards work

15:22:10 [oedipus]

GJR: what about changing spelling of one word

15:22:32 [oedipus]

RM: old word should be deleted and new word should be added -- not change in letter, but in word

15:22:56 [oedipus]

GJR: i'm thinking about the hell that it is trying to keep up with DIFF markings especially on wiki pages

15:23:20 [oedipus]

GJR: course of last resort for sanity's sake is document source

15:23:39 [oedipus]

RM: marking up changes as much a part of good design as anything else, can be done badly or can be done well

15:24:56 [oedipus]

TH: DIFF documents very binary -- markup what taken out and what is put in; if have long piece of code or content to make sense in context, wouldn't work if each UA read paragraph, then stopped in the middle and says a word 2 times; but no more helpful if have to read paragraph twice

15:25:40 [oedipus]

RM: i would like it to read what i've got and there has been a change -- don't want to see diff marks in many cases -- choice by user -- show me the history, what has changed --

15:25:55 [oedipus]

RM: sympathize if have to use TTS to read a DIFF marked document

15:26:48 [oedipus]

GJR: strategy used to process a DIFF document aurally is an ad hoc use of a screen reader's "skim" feature, in which one can set basic font characteristic parameters so that only content that meets a specific criterion is spoken

15:27:20 [oedipus]

GJR: but in essense, that means that one is actually processing the content multiple times to extract what one would like to be able to parse in one go

15:28:17 [oedipus]

GJR: screen reader bug is can only recognize a limited pallate of color names, only Orca gives change to filter by color codes

15:28:31 [Roland]

<ins>dog</ins><del>dig</del>

15:28:31 [Roland]

d<ins>o</ins><del>i</del>g

15:28:31 [Roland]

<mod>dog</mod>

15:28:37 [oedipus]

RM: what would we consider good practice

15:28:52 [oedipus]

RM: how to deal with questions: many means of doing this

15:29:33 [Roland]

d<mod>o</mod>g

15:30:00 [oedipus]

RM: all of the above examples are possible, but what is easiest to author, read, listen to

15:30:39 [oedipus]

RM: prefer first method - inserted correction and marked incorrect spelling with DEL

15:30:49 [oedipus]

RM: should be dealing with words, phrases paragraphs

15:31:06 [oedipus]

TH: prefer DEL before INS

15:31:30 [oedipus]

TH: if have screen reader can filter it to ignore DEL

15:31:37 [Roland]

<del>dig</del><ins>dog</ins>

15:32:23 [oedipus]

GJR: that would work, and in addition if there was a cue from the AT that text is marked as INS, then a user could stop, and query for the characteriscs of content that is marked DEL to get context

15:33:06 [oedipus]

GJR: in flow of reading would want to suppress that, but still needs to be available to user on user request/query

15:33:24 [oedipus]

RM: still leaves question -- what happens when in middle of words

15:33:57 [oedipus]

GJR: have sympathy for word, phrase limitation

15:35:22 [oedipus]

GJR: would like to avoid internal use of modidifier element inside a word to encase a single letter or group of letters

15:35:35 [oedipus]

TH: agreement there

15:36:12 [oedipus]

proposed resolved: modified text must be at least a word?

15:36:46 [oedipus]

TH: speech browser should look for modified attribute on section or paragraph and skip according to user preference

15:37:27 [oedipus]

RM: suggest that GJR attempt to write up where we've got to at end of discussion as proposal for discussion next week

15:37:33 [oedipus]

RM: much easier to work with examples

15:38:26 [oedipus]

ACTION: GJR - send summation of discussion (this is what we need from language point of view and good practices bad practices) with examples

15:38:26 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-50 - - send summation of discussion (this is what we need from language point of view and good practices bad practices) with examples [on Gregory Rosmaita - due 2009-02-18].

15:39:04 [oedipus]

RM: short time left -- markus, could you talk with us about M12n and XHTML family

15:39:17 [oedipus]

TOPIC: Modularization and the XHTML Family

15:39:55 [oedipus]

MG: overarching theme: take XHTML m12n in a direction which caters more for language designers than it has done before; allow ability to express sub-sets of complliance modules being imported

15:40:14 [oedipus]

MG: stumble upon idea working in DAISY context with XHTML modules, but believe has generic value

15:40:31 [oedipus]

MG: changing scope of m12n in way that expands potential audience of framework

15:41:17 [oedipus]

MG: embryonic idea is that there is a way of restricting sub-set-ability so not to allow content models that are distortions; conssistency of functionality

15:41:57 [oedipus]

MG: discussed with Shane over phone; one approach: have abstract definitions which are currently tabular, add a column to show module where sub-setting is allowed

15:42:18 [oedipus]

MG: need to try out concretely to ascertian how and if it works and most effective and balanced solution

15:43:08 [oedipus]

RM: reasonable thing to do; come across this difficulty when OMA trying to create profile using legacy module -- did anyway even though m12n framework doesn't allow -- technically not valid, but pragmatically workable

15:43:40 [oedipus]

MG: DAISY would do the same -- utilize XHTML module sets as language author; number of compliance grammers needs to grow by embracing this way of using it as well

15:44:15 [oedipus]

RM: grammar is small part of it; number of documents which will be valid against super-set will be greatly increased; grammars only a means to an end to create documents

15:44:30 [oedipus]

MG: risk is UAs being developed that cater only to sub-set

15:44:46 [oedipus]

RM: already in situation where UA devs support only bits in which they are interested already

15:44:59 [oedipus]

MG: fait accompli, true, just don't want to make worse

15:45:19 [oedipus]

RM: reached end of time for today

15:45:23 [oedipus]

RM: any burning issues?

15:45:38 [oedipus]

GJR: will alert the WG results of ARIA LC vote

15:45:50 [oedipus]

RM: i will be on holiday next week, steven will probably chair

15:45:55 [oedipus]

TH: regrets for next week

15:45:56 [Zakim]

-mgylling

15:45:57 [Zakim]

-Roland

15:46:02 [Zakim]

-Tina

15:46:03 [Zakim]

-Gregory_Rosmaita

15:46:03 [Zakim]

IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has ended

15:46:05 [Zakim]

Attendees were Roland, Gregory_Rosmaita, mgylling, +0468645aaaa, +0468645aabb, Tina

15:46:07 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:46:07 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/11-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

15:46:41 [oedipus]

present- +0468645aaa, +0468645aabb

15:46:47 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:46:47 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/11-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

15:47:22 [oedipus]

present- +0468645aaaa

15:47:26 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:47:26 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/11-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

15:47:34 [oedipus]

ADJOURN

15:47:38 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:47:38 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/11-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

15:47:59 [oedipus]

regrets+ Steven_Pemberton

15:48:02 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:48:02 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/11-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

15:49:23 [oedipus]

zakim, please part

15:49:23 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #xhtml

15:50:51 [Roland]

Roland has left #xhtml

15:56:18 [oedipus]

s/send summation of discussion (this is what we need from language point of view and good practices bad practices) with examples/send summation of modification markup discussion (this is what we need from a declarative markup point of view, a natural language point of view, and propose good practices and bad practices) with examples

15:56:23 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:56:23 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/11-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

15:56:54 [oedipus]

rrsagent, please part

15:56:54 [RRSAgent]

I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/11-xhtml-actions.rdf :

15:56:54 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: GJR - ensure that XHTML Vocab Document in sync with ARIA 1.0 Last Call draft are in sync [1]

15:56:54 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/11-xhtml-irc#T14-55-49

15:56:54 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: GJR - send summation of discussion (this is what we need from language point of view and good practices bad practices) with examples [2]

15:56:54 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/11-xhtml-irc#T15-38-26