IRC log of ua on 2009-02-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:56:00 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
17:56:00 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/02/05-ua-irc
17:56:10 [AllanJ]
zakim, this will be wai_u
17:56:10 [Zakim]
ok, AllanJ; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
17:56:20 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, set logs public
17:56:23 [JR]
JR has joined #ua
17:57:36 [AllanJ]
title: UAWG telecon
17:57:48 [AllanJ]
chair: Jim_Allan
17:58:23 [AllanJ]
Agenda+ Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?
17:58:32 [AllanJ]
Agenda+ New Member (introductions all around)
17:58:39 [AllanJ]
Agenda+ WD Publication status
17:58:51 [AllanJ]
Agenda+ ATIA report on UAAG20 poster session
17:59:20 [AllanJ]
Agenda+ Glossary Review First 20 Items -
17:59:22 [AllanJ]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JanMar/att-0009/UAAG_glossary_review.doc
17:59:44 [AllanJ]
Agenda+ Draft Charter review http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2008/draft_uawg_charter_20mar08.html
17:59:50 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
17:59:52 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
17:59:57 [Zakim]
+??P18
18:00:19 [jeanne]
zakim, code?
18:00:19 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jeanne
18:01:07 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
18:01:19 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
18:01:56 [Zakim]
+??P29
18:02:36 [Zakim]
+ +1.512.206.aaaa
18:02:36 [JR]
zakim, ??P29 is really JR
18:02:38 [Zakim]
+JR; got it
18:02:40 [AllanJ]
Agenda+ Action Item Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/open
18:02:41 [sharper]
sharper has joined #ua
18:02:52 [AllanJ]
Agenda+ Open Issues Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/open
18:03:25 [Zakim]
+??P12
18:03:43 [JR]
zakim,aaaa is really AllanJ
18:04:03 [JR]
zakim, +1.512.206.aaaa is really AllanJ
18:04:24 [Zakim]
+AllanJ; got it
18:04:39 [Zakim]
sorry, JR, I do not recognize a party named '+1.512.206.aaaa'
18:05:02 [sharper]
zakim, ??P12 is really sharper
18:05:02 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
18:05:21 [KFord]
KFord has joined #ua
18:05:42 [AllanJ]
regrets: Alan
18:08:01 [sharper]
scribe: Harper_Simon
18:08:01 [sharper]
ScribeNick: sharper
18:08:12 [Zakim]
+Mark_Hakkinen
18:09:32 [sharper]
present: Allan_James, Harper_Simon, Hakkinen_Mark, Spellman_Jeanne, Ford_Kelly, Swan_Henny
18:10:35 [sharper]
JA: Introduces new member HS (Opera Web Evangelist)
18:10:44 [sharper]
HS: Introductions and background
18:10:49 [mth]
mth has joined #ua
18:11:53 [sharper]
present+ Richards_Jan
18:12:38 [sharper]
All: Round table Introductions
18:13:27 [sharper]
zakim, take up item 1
18:13:27 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?" taken up [from AllanJ]
18:14:47 [sharper]
regrets+ Brewer_Judy
18:15:24 [sharper]
zakim, close item 1
18:15:24 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?, closed
18:15:24 [sharper]
zakim, next item
18:15:25 [Zakim]
I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:15:27 [Zakim]
2. New Member (introductions all around) [from AllanJ]
18:15:29 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "New Member (introductions all around)" taken up [from AllanJ]
18:15:40 [sharper]
zakim, close item 2
18:15:40 [Zakim]
agendum 2, New Member (introductions all around), closed
18:15:40 [sharper]
zakim, next item
18:15:41 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:15:42 [Zakim]
3. WD Publication status [from AllanJ]
18:15:43 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "WD Publication status" taken up [from AllanJ]
18:16:41 [sharper]
JS: Draft - currently on hold for chartering and WG meetings per year for UAWG. Once complete we can then publish this draft.
18:16:51 [sharper]
JS: Hoping for something soon.
18:19:09 [sharper]
zakim, close item 3
18:19:09 [Zakim]
agendum 3, WD Publication status, closed
18:19:09 [sharper]
zakim, next item
18:19:11 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:19:12 [Zakim]
4. ATIA report on UAAG20 poster session [from AllanJ]
18:19:13 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "ATIA report on UAAG20 poster session" taken up [from AllanJ]
18:19:53 [sharper]
JA: JS did a poster session at ATIA and has comments.
18:21:07 [sharper]
JS: @ posters - one on WAI and Guidelines and screen-shot of Easy YouTube Browser
18:21:37 [sharper]
JS: Generated most discussion as concerned that we where including Web Applications as User Agents.
18:22:08 [sharper]
JS: feeling was covered by WCAG and was confusion that we required developers to conform to 2 sets of guidelines
18:22:38 [sharper]
JS: Concern re - EU that thsi would quickly become a standard
18:23:07 [KFord]
q+
18:23:11 [sharper]
JS: W-Applications are just widgets and have to conform to WCAG and ARIA and now UAWG
18:23:17 [sharper]
ack
18:23:40 [JR]
q+
18:23:45 [sharper]
KF: What do people think about this - what are our reactions?
18:24:38 [sharper]
JR: Not going to be to much of a big deal in reality - we already point to WCAG for a big chunk of this - things after this are really just to do with broswer specific stuff - in a browser setting.
18:25:02 [KFord]
q+
18:25:18 [JR]
ack JR
18:25:28 [sharper]
MH: Sorted in Public comment
18:25:36 [AllanJ]
ack KFord
18:26:34 [AllanJ]
Q+ cover the future and black hole of javascript
18:26:41 [sharper]
KF: Our guidelines are the superset of the basics that would be needed, for future proofing.
18:27:06 [sharper]
KF: need some good arguments on this
18:28:22 [sharper]
JA: with PF dodged a bullet using ARIA - may not be so lucky next time - developers doing so so much with JavaScript that there may be problems in the future.
18:28:45 [jeanne]
http://www.w3.org/People/jeanne/ATIA2009/UAAG-final-letter.pdf
18:28:50 [KFord]
q+
18:29:01 [sharper]
ack KFord
18:30:30 [sharper]
KF: UAAG 1 based on desktop - strides on eliminating the bias - desktop is still primary - but other devices must be included - need to make sure that our guidelines are not so biased.
18:31:15 [sharper]
JS: Like to take the time to re read for modularity - such that if a section applies to a W-Application or does the entire document applies - must be careful on this.
18:31:37 [sharper]
JA: in Conformance claim?
18:31:47 [mth]
q+
18:32:16 [sharper]
JS: Guidelines to make sure that (in application notes) we have the right boundaries around the user agent types.
18:33:04 [sharper]
ack mth
18:34:16 [sharper]
MH: Follow up on KF - most innovation on touch screen devices etc. need to look at the document now to see this.
18:34:48 [AllanJ]
boundary between (specific guidelines) for web-applications as browser and browser-application
18:34:56 [KFord]
SHarper: Talking about other browsing platforms like that used by phones from Google.
18:34:58 [JR]
q+
18:35:05 [jeanne]
http://www.w3.org/People/jeanne/ATIA2009/WAI-Poster.png
18:35:22 [mth]
q+
18:35:31 [KFord]
Sharper: Also talking about json, javascript object notation.
18:36:11 [AllanJ]
ack mth
18:36:54 [KFord]
JR: +1 to kford's comments. Reason why we need to declare any kind of boundary is that in the end we are talking about agents where the contet is web content.
18:36:55 [AllanJ]
JR: +1 to KF comment about wide variety of platforms, tools, etc.
18:38:30 [KFord]
q+
18:38:39 [JR]
ackJR
18:38:48 [AllanJ]
ack KFord
18:38:59 [AllanJ]
ack JR
18:39:14 [mth]
q+
18:39:27 [sharper]
KF: Android technology could be the greater concern, JSON is more about the JS technology as it is about displaying information.
18:39:54 [AllanJ]
SH: JSON covered by ARIA?
18:40:38 [sharper]
KF: JSON more about the exchange as opposed to the display so would not effect this - as WCAG / UAAG / ARIA would still cover this.
18:40:54 [sharper]
ack mth
18:41:05 [AllanJ]
KF: more about background (lower-level) data transfer
18:41:20 [sharper]
MH: Android browser based on WebKit and more like chrome
18:42:52 [sharper]
MH: Times Article - TV Raman - touch screen technology working on user agents - ideas on this?
18:43:55 [KFord]
JSON definition/description http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Json
18:44:38 [JR]
So JSON is just a format
18:46:10 [sharper]
RESOLVED: Still resolved to address Web Applications in the UAAG Guidelines as they are part of the browser.
18:47:57 [sharper]
RESOLVED: JA - Two sets of guidelines, these are for things that are for applications and another set are the Web Applications side (this is a possibility - re JS characterisations) in maybe a 2-tiered way.
18:49:24 [KFord]
TV Raman article from MY Times - http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/04/business/04blind.html
18:50:05 [KFord]
+1
18:50:14 [JR]
Action JR: Write-up a clarification of WHICH web apps are user agents and which are not.
18:50:14 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-119 - Write-up a clarification of WHICH web apps are user agents and which are not. [on Jan Richards - due 2009-02-12].
18:50:14 [sharper]
JR: Could you say when content is wrapped in content then it is just content - but when you transform something you're a user agent.
18:50:24 [sharper]
ISSUE: Future Formats - do we need to investigate these?
18:50:24 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-31 - Future Formats - do we need to investigate these? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/31/edit .
18:51:34 [KFord]
q+
18:52:11 [sharper]
MH: Pulling local database information (not Web) and wrapping in html but not web content
18:52:38 [sharper]
JR: is dataformat a web content format? HTML is ARIA is / word is not say
18:53:04 [AllanJ]
ack KFord
18:53:06 [sharper]
MH: pulling an XML doc into an XSLT system
18:54:56 [sharper]
KF: common for desktop applications - will use any web tech that is on the platform as it is easy to wrap and use. Problem, maybe getting AT to switch between these applications - is this covered - should it be? Also, problem getting out of the environment.
18:56:01 [AllanJ]
q+
18:56:03 [sharper]
KF: Do we need a guideline saying - you've got to play nice with your neighbours.
18:57:16 [JR]
q+
18:57:48 [sharper]
JA: In new 508, did away with application guidelines and web guidelines - now they are just one.
18:58:28 [sharper]
JA: Seems like the compound document issues - (platform on a platform on a platform)
18:58:35 [JR]
acl AllanJ
18:58:36 [KFord]
action: kf, mh to think about guideline to capture user agents embeded in desktop applications
18:58:36 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - kf,
18:58:42 [JR]
ack AllanJ
18:59:12 [AllanJ]
ack JR
18:59:35 [sharper]
JR: Plugins are user agents embeded in a desktop application
19:00:40 [KFord]
action: kford,mht to think about guideline around ensuring embedded user agents work correctly.
19:00:40 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - kford,mht
19:01:22 [mth]
mth
19:02:05 [AllanJ]
action: kford to think about guideline around ensuring embedded user agents work correctly (includes MTH).
19:02:05 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - kford
19:02:29 [AllanJ]
action: kelly to think about guideline around ensuring embedded user agents work correctly (includes MTH).
19:02:29 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-120 - Think about guideline around ensuring embedded user agents work correctly (includes MTH). [on Kelly Ford - due 2009-02-12].
19:03:01 [sharper]
zakim, close item 4
19:03:01 [Zakim]
agendum 4, ATIA report on UAAG20 poster session, closed
19:03:02 [sharper]
zakim, next item
19:03:03 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
19:03:04 [Zakim]
5. Glossary Review First 20 Items - [from AllanJ]
19:03:05 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "Glossary Review First 20 Items -" taken up [from AllanJ]
19:04:29 [sharper]
zakim, close item 5
19:04:29 [Zakim]
agendum 5, Glossary Review First 20 Items -, closed
19:04:29 [sharper]
zakim, next item
19:04:30 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
19:04:31 [Zakim]
6. Draft Charter review http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2008/draft_uawg_charter_20mar08.html [from AllanJ]
19:04:34 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "Draft Charter review http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2008/draft_uawg_charter_20mar08.html" taken up [from AllanJ]
19:06:43 [KFord]
q+
19:06:56 [AllanJ]
JA: Last call June 09 atainable?
19:07:28 [AllanJ]
JS: need video, understanding doc, and couple of other things.
19:08:03 [sharper]
ack KFord
19:08:17 [sharper]
KFord: Need more comments on the draft
19:08:22 [AllanJ]
KF: June seems ambitious
19:09:07 [sharper]
KF: August / Sept seems more realistic
19:09:31 [sharper]
JA: we can have more than one last call
19:09:48 [sharper]
JR: don't want to plan many LC - means you haven't done your job
19:10:20 [sharper]
JR: Now have a Stabilisation Draft - then after this LC
19:10:21 [jeanne]
q+ to talk about the importance of presenting and talking about the publications.
19:10:28 [sharper]
JR: need time for this
19:10:54 [sharper]
JR: 9 months from now to LC through SD
19:11:02 [sharper]
ack jeanne
19:11:02 [Zakim]
jeanne, you wanted to talk about the importance of presenting and talking about the publications.
19:12:22 [sharper]
JS: Need to present and publicise the UAWG - maybe need to talk about this at conferences etc. Look at conference that you are attending for opportunities to promote this.
19:12:45 [sharper]
HS: Can do this via twitter, blogging, and youtube.
19:14:10 [AllanJ]
SHarper: what about WWW conference, I'll be going
19:14:24 [AllanJ]
HS: I will be there also
19:16:37 [jeanne]
action: JS to research whether the draft charter dates can be updated at this time.
19:16:37 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-121 - Research whether the draft charter dates can be updated at this time. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-02-12].
19:17:14 [sharper]
zakim, close item 5
19:17:14 [Zakim]
agendum 5, Glossary Review First 20 Items -, closed
19:17:14 [sharper]
zakim, take up item 4
19:17:15 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
19:17:16 [Zakim]
6. Draft Charter review http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2008/draft_uawg_charter_20mar08.html [from AllanJ]
19:17:18 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "ATIA report on UAAG20 poster session" taken up [from AllanJ]
19:17:41 [sharper]
zakim, take up item 5
19:17:41 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "Glossary Review First 20 Items -" taken up [from AllanJ]
19:18:18 [AllanJ]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JanMar/att-0009/UAAG_glossary_review.doc
19:18:51 [mth]
mth has joined #ua
19:19:06 [AllanJ]
To execute the behaviour(s) associated with an enabled element rendered content or component of the user agent user interface.
19:19:20 [JR]
To execute the behaviour(s) associated with an enabled element in the rendered content or component of the user agent user interface.
19:21:11 [mth]
mth has joined #ua
19:21:52 [sharper]
RESOLVED: Activate - To execute the behaviour(s) associated with an enabled element in the rendered content or component of the user agent user interface.
19:21:58 [jeanne]
action: JS to update glossary with new definition
19:21:58 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-122 - Update glossary with new definition [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-02-12].
19:22:52 [AllanJ]
A programmatic interface that is specifically engineered to provide communication between mainstream applications and assistive technologies (e.g., MSAA and IAccessible2 for Windows applications, AXAPI for MacOSX applications, Gnome Accessibility Toolkit API for Gnome applications, Java Access for Java applications, etc.). On some platforms it may be conventional to enhance communication...
19:22:54 [AllanJ]
...further by implementing a DOM.
19:23:28 [mth]
mth has joined #ua
19:24:00 [KFord]
q+
19:24:35 [sharper]
MH: why 'mainstream'
19:24:56 [sharper]
JR: Just to differentiate between AT etc
19:25:19 [sharper]
JR: Can dig the ATAG definition for Mainstream
19:25:24 [sharper]
ack KFord
19:25:27 [JR]
From ATAG 2.0: mainstream applications
19:25:29 [JR]
Software applications for which augmenting accessibility is secondary to some other purpose (as opposed to assistive technology where it is the primary purpose). Mainstream technologies may include direct accessibility features.
19:25:51 [AllanJ]
KF: should list UIautomation in examples
19:26:07 [sharper]
KF: what are we trying to get with the last sentence?
19:27:01 [sharper]
JR: attempt to reconcile that DOMs are important in some cases - compromise language.
19:27:29 [sharper]
JA: can more the last sentence to the DOM / or objections to stay where it is (KF)?
19:28:53 [AllanJ]
KF: -1 mainstream
19:29:16 [JR]
WCAG 2.0: hardware and/or software that acts as a user agent, or along with a mainstream user agent, to provide functionality to meet the requirements of users with disabilities that go beyond those offered by mainstream user agents
19:29:32 [AllanJ]
JS: -1 mainstream, add another cognitive layer
19:30:03 [mth]
-1 mainstream
19:30:56 [AllanJ]
A programmatic interface that is specifically engineered to provide communication between applications and assistive technologies (e.g., MSAA, UI Automation, and IAccessible2 for Windows applications, AXAPI for MacOSX applications, Gnome Accessibility Toolkit API for Gnome applications, Java Access for Java applications, etc.). On some platforms it may be conventional to enhance communication furt
19:30:58 [AllanJ]
her by implementing a DOM.
19:32:17 [sharper]
JR: to take back ro ATAG - what should we use on a general basis - application / software ?
19:32:33 [KFord]
Confirming UI Automation is as I indicated UI Automation http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/accessibility/bb892133.aspx
19:32:38 [sharper]
JA: application - we've been using this throughout
19:32:54 [sharper]
JA: Leave at application
19:33:45 [sharper]
JR: Applications OK for now
19:34:55 [sharper]
RESOLVED: JR will look at this over the next week - postponed to next meeting
19:34:56 [sharper]
Platform Accessibility Architecture - A programmatic interface that is specifically engineered to provide communication between applications and assistive technologies (e.g., MSAA, UI Automation, and IAccessible2 for Windows applications, AXAPI for MacOSX applications, Gnome Accessibility Toolkit API for Gnome applications, Java Access for Java applications, etc.). On some platforms it may be conventional to enhance communication further by implementing a DOM.
19:35:07 [JR]
Action JR: Look at "application" in the defn of platform accessibility architecture
19:35:07 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-123 - Look at \"application\" in the defn of platform accessibility architecture [on Jan Richards - due 2009-02-12].
19:35:36 [jeanne]
action: to put the revised definition of platform accessibility architecture into next week's survey
19:35:36 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - to
19:35:44 [Zakim]
-Mark_Hakkinen
19:35:45 [Zakim]
-JR
19:35:51 [Zakim]
-??P18
19:35:57 [jeanne]
action: JS to put the revised definition of platform accessibility architecture into next week's survey
19:35:57 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-124 - Put the revised definition of platform accessibility architecture into next week's survey [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-02-12].
19:36:07 [Zakim]
-sharper
19:36:09 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft]
19:36:20 [jeanne]
zakim, who's here?
19:36:20 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Jeanne, AllanJ
19:36:21 [Zakim]
On IRC I see mth, KFord, sharper, jeanne, RRSAgent, Zakim, AllanJ, trackbot
19:37:06 [sharper]
rrsagent, draft minutes
19:37:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/05-ua-minutes.html sharper
19:37:34 [sharper]
zakim, please part
19:37:34 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
19:37:35 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Jeanne, [Microsoft], +1.512.206.aaaa, JR, AllanJ, sharper, Mark_Hakkinen
19:37:55 [sharper]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
19:37:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/05-ua-minutes.html sharper
19:39:12 [sharper]
rrsagent, please part
19:39:12 [RRSAgent]
I see 10 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/05-ua-actions.rdf :
19:39:12 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JR to Write-up a clarification of WHICH web apps are user agents and which are not. [1]
19:39:12 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/05-ua-irc#T18-50-14
19:39:12 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: kf, mh to think about guideline to capture user agents embeded in desktop applications [2]
19:39:12 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/05-ua-irc#T18-58-36
19:39:12 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: kford,mht to think about guideline around ensuring embedded user agents work correctly. [3]
19:39:12 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/05-ua-irc#T19-00-40
19:39:12 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: kford to think about guideline around ensuring embedded user agents work correctly (includes MTH). [4]
19:39:12 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/05-ua-irc#T19-02-05
19:39:12 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: kelly to think about guideline around ensuring embedded user agents work correctly (includes MTH). [5]
19:39:12 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/05-ua-irc#T19-02-29
19:39:12 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JS to research whether the draft charter dates can be updated at this time. [6]
19:39:12 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/05-ua-irc#T19-16-37
19:39:12 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JS to update glossary with new definition [7]
19:39:12 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/05-ua-irc#T19-21-58
19:39:12 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JR to Look at "application" in the defn of platform accessibility architecture [8]
19:39:12 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/05-ua-irc#T19-35-07
19:39:12 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: to put the revised definition of platform accessibility architecture into next week's survey [9]
19:39:12 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/05-ua-irc#T19-35-36
19:39:12 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JS to put the revised definition of platform accessibility architecture into next week's survey [10]
19:39:12 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/05-ua-irc#T19-35-57