15:00:04 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wam
15:00:04 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/01/29-wam-irc
15:00:04 <marcos> bb in 2 mins
15:00:13 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make log public
15:00:21 <ArtB> ScribeNick: ArtB
15:00:26 <ArtB> Scribe: Art
15:00:30 <Zakim> IA_WebApps(Widgets)10:00AM has now started
15:00:30 <ArtB> Chair: Art
15:00:37 <Zakim> +Jere
15:00:41 <Zakim> -Jere
15:00:43 <Zakim> IA_WebApps(Widgets)10:00AM has ended
15:00:43 <Zakim> Attendees were Jere
15:00:44 <ArtB> Meeting: Widgets Voice Conference
15:00:55 <Zakim> IA_WebApps(Widgets)10:00AM has now started
15:01:01 <Zakim> + +1.919.342.aaaa
15:01:11 <Zakim> +Art_Barstow
15:01:25 <ArtB> zakim, aaaa is Andy
15:01:26 <Zakim> +Andy; got it
15:01:29 <Zakim> +Jere
15:01:42 <ArtB> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009JanMar/0227.html
15:01:58 <ArtB> Date: 29 January 2009
15:02:30 <Zakim> +arve
15:02:37 <ArtB> Present: Art, Arve, Andy, Jere
15:02:46 <andy> andy has joined #wam
15:02:49 <Zakim> +Mark
15:02:56 <ArtB> Present+ Mark
15:03:00 <Zakim> +??P24
15:03:09 <ArtB> zakim, PP24 is Marcos
15:03:09 <Zakim> sorry, ArtB, I do not recognize a party named 'PP24'
15:03:11 <marcos> zakim, ??P24 is me
15:03:11 <Zakim> +marcos; got it
15:03:13 <ArtB> Present+ Mark
15:03:31 <Bryan> Bryan is here, on chat only
15:03:32 <mpriestl> mpriestl has joined #wam
15:03:38 <ArtB> Present+ Bryan
15:04:07 <ArtB> Present+ Marcos
15:04:14 <ArtB> Topic: Review and tweak agenda
15:04:20 <ArtB> AB: any change requests?
15:04:42 <ArtB> AB: agenda is http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009JanMar/0227.html
15:04:47 <ArtB> [None]
15:04:53 <ArtB> Topic: Announcements
15:05:03 <Benoit> Benoit has joined #wam
15:05:04 <ArtB> AB: Andy, brief intro please
15:05:05 <Benoit> p
15:05:20 <ArtB> Present+ Benoit
15:05:37 <ArtB> Andy: with Sony Ericsson for over 2 years;
15:05:45 <ArtB> ... work with North America operators
15:06:05 <ArtB> ... I work with Web technologies
15:06:07 <MikeSmith> MikeSmith has joined #wam
15:06:17 <ArtB> ... trying to get my bearings wrt to W3C
15:06:37 <ArtB> AB: Marcos mentioned in IRC today there will be Mobile Widget Workshop
15:06:44 <ArtB> ... in Madrid this April as part of WWW2009.
15:06:45 <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike-Mobile
15:06:45 <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
15:06:47 <Zakim> +Mike
15:06:56 <ArtB> ... For details see http://www.research.att.com/~rjana/mobea2009.htm
15:07:11 <ArtB> ... Deadline is Feb 12 for papers
15:07:28 <ArtB> AB: It's not really an announcement per se but a forward pointer to the AOB agenda item I want to talk about moving this call to one hour earlier on a permanent basis.
15:07:40 <ArtB> AB: does anyone have any other short announcements they'd like to make?
15:07:48 <ArtB> [None]
15:07:53 <ArtB> Topic: Requirements for Window modes:
15:08:07 <ArtB> AB: last week our discussion about window modes started to "rat hole" in that we were conflating a few different concepts
15:08:17 <ArtB> AB: Mark agreed to create some requirements
15:08:25 <ArtB> ... Action-291: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/291
15:08:37 <ArtB> AB: Mark, what is the status?
15:09:03 <ArtB> MP: I've had some internal discussions but nothing yet to share with the group
15:09:19 <ArtB> ... there were some additional comments on the list and I haven't followed them yet
15:09:30 <ArtB> ... will be next week before I can address this action
15:10:07 <ArtB> AB: ok; please let's continue this discussion
15:10:15 <ArtB> Arve: how does this effect P&C 1.0
15:10:22 <ArtB> MC: I'm not sure at this point
15:10:32 <ArtB> ... I think we have general consensus on the names
15:10:46 <ArtB> ... but we still need to discuss the related process model for each name
15:11:02 <ArtB> Arve: would we need to go back to WD or a 2nd LCWD
15:11:13 <ArtB> AB: I don't know the answer
15:11:45 <ArtB> ACTION: barstow if we make significant changes to P&C LC, do we need to go back to WD?
15:12:03 <Zakim> +Caroline
15:12:09 <ArtB> Present+ Mike
15:12:18 <ArtB> MS: there is no hard and fast rule here
15:12:25 <ArtB> ... we can resolve this now
15:12:36 <ArtB> ... we don't have to go back unnecessarily
15:12:57 <ArtB> AB: I think it's a bit premature to make a resolution on this
15:13:05 <ArtB> AB: any comments on that?
15:13:32 <ArtB> MC: I agree; we should think about this in a week or two and see how much the spec changes
15:13:46 <ArtB> AB: I think that's a reasonable way forward
15:13:50 <ArtB> AB: any disagreements?
15:13:52 <ArtB> [None]
15:13:59 <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:13:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see Andy, Art_Barstow, Jere, arve, Mark, marcos, Mike, Caroline
15:14:03 <ArtB> Topic: Renaming "thumbnail" to "screenshot"?
15:14:15 <ArtB> AB: Marcos raised this issue via <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009JanMar/0174.html>
15:14:23 <ArtB> AB: I don't recall much support for the proposal
15:14:29 <ArtB> ... Marcos, what's the status?
15:14:57 <ArtB> MC: I think it makes sense to change it to screenshot
15:15:14 <ArtB> Arve: neither proposal is particuarly acurate description of the image
15:15:23 <ArtB> MC: what is the role of the image?
15:15:59 <ArtB> Arve: the image varies a lot
15:16:11 <ArtB> ... the image is displayed to provide information
15:16:57 <Benoit> As a user's perspective then in gallery it would make sens to use the word screenshot
15:17:47 <ArtB> Arve: an image can have multiple roles
15:17:57 <ArtB> ... OTOH, I don't think this is a big deal
15:19:03 <ArtB> MC: I'd like to go with screenshot
15:19:18 <ArtB> BS: I agree with Marcos
15:19:36 <ArtB> JK: want to understand the purpose of the image
15:19:51 <ArtB> ... thumbnail is used within the device e.g. in a gallery
15:20:11 <ArtB> ... that's different than an image on a web site
15:21:01 <ArtB> AB: Mark, is this topic something you will include in your input for the window mode action
15:21:09 <ArtB> MP: no, I wasn't
15:21:21 <ArtB> ... see them as separate
15:21:54 <ArtB> MC: I will refine the requirements re thumbnails, etc in the Reqs doc
15:22:25 <ArtB> AB: so will you let us know when that is done?
15:22:28 <ArtB> MC: yes
15:22:35 <ArtB> Topic: SVG dependency
15:22:44 <ArtB> AB: Boris raised an issue regarding the P&C spec's SVG dependency
15:22:52 <ArtB> ... See <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009JanMar/0212.html>
15:23:04 <ArtB> AB: since then, Doug Schepers has responded
15:23:14 <ArtB> ... See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009JanMar/0233.html
15:23:27 <ArtB> AB: Marcos, what's the status?
15:24:06 <ArtB> MC: Boris' viewpoint is correct
15:24:13 <ArtB> ... I was looking at it differently
15:24:23 <ArtB> ... Conformance checker and author reqs are different
15:24:57 <ArtB> MC: Doug mentioned a bunch of different capabilities of SVG
15:25:12 <ArtB> ... he recommends we recommend a subset of SVG
15:25:26 <ArtB> Arve: has anyone defined such a profile already?
15:25:36 <ArtB> MC: no and I think it would be painful to do so
15:25:53 <ArtB> ... we'd have to tell authors not to use certain elements for example
15:26:05 <ArtB> ... and get into spec'ing behavior diffs
15:27:14 <ArtB> AB: I think we need more information/data from implementors of the Widget UA
15:27:29 <ArtB> JK: could we use MIME type to help?
15:27:52 <ArtB> Arve: all profiles today include some features we may not want to support
15:28:34 <ArtB> AB: my recommendation is we continue to discuss this on the public mail list
15:29:00 <ArtB> MC: I think we shold drop SVG icon format for v1
15:29:23 <ArtB> Arve: I would expect some operators to require SVG icon format
15:30:50 <ArtB> AB: there's an action for everyone to talk to the impl teams and bring back some data to help inform this decision
15:31:28 <ArtB> Arve: some functionality like scripting we don't want to support
15:31:38 <ArtB> ... there are other things we also don't want to have to support
15:32:21 <ArtB> Arve: the SVG WG can help us understand if there is some way to say particualar features are not supported
15:32:44 <Benoit_> Benoit_ has joined #wam
15:32:53 <ArtB> ACTION: Barstow followup with Doug and Mike to coordinate this issue with the SVG WG
15:33:29 <ArtB> Arve: I think Erik is a co-Chair
15:33:40 <ArtB> MS: we can include Cameron too as he is the other co-Chair
15:33:52 <ArtB> Topic: File extension and MIME mapping
15:34:02 <ArtB> AB: Boris raised an issue re file extensions and MIME mapping
15:34:12 <ArtB> ... see <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009JanMar/0173.html>
15:34:20 <ArtB> AB: Marcos, what's the essence of the issue?
15:34:39 <ArtB> MC: we understand this is an issue
15:35:10 <ArtB> ... we can work with Hixie and at least someone else on an Internet Draft 
15:35:21 <ArtB> ... He thinks we need a robust table of mappings
15:35:28 <ArtB> ... I think we already have such a table
15:35:40 <ArtB> ... We also need to consider the security implications
15:35:45 <MikeSmith> http://webblaze.cs.berkeley.edu/2009/mime-sniff/mime-sniff.txt
15:36:03 <ArtB> JK: so you aren't interested in a manifest within the package to address this
15:36:15 <ArtB> MC: no widget engine has needed it so far
15:36:26 <ArtB> ... thus I'm not convinced we need it
15:36:36 <ArtB> ... I can put it in; just follow Apache
15:36:39 <MikeSmith> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-abarth-mime-sniff-00
15:36:52 <ArtB> ... There is a risk of hijacking
15:37:18 <ArtB> AB: could we push this manifest to v2?
15:37:31 <ArtB> MC: yes; if it isn't on the v2 list then I will add it
15:37:56 <ArtB> AB: what's the next step then Marcos
15:38:12 <ArtB> MC: I think we need impl feedback
15:38:51 <ArtB> AB: so we could go to Candidate with the table essentially as is and see if implementors raise Red Flags?
15:38:54 <ArtB> MC: yes
15:39:22 <ArtB> Topic: Zip files and Encoding:
15:39:33 <ArtB> AB: I think the main issue is that ZIP files aren't particularly portable from OS to OS
15:39:44 <ArtB> AB: Marcos wrote about it in his blog: <http://datadriven.com.au/2008/12/08/zip-files-and-encoding-i-hate-you/>
15:40:12 <ArtB> AB: I think one of the questions for us is basically - what, if anything, we need to do about this beyond what we've already spec'ed.
15:40:24 <ArtB> AB: Marcos, WDYT?
15:41:05 <ArtB> MC: I don't think is going to be a huge problem
15:41:27 <ArtB> ... I think developers will understand the problem and deal with it
15:41:47 <ArtB> ... The only "real" solution is ZIP being standardized in some place like ISO
15:41:59 <ArtB> ... I don't think we want to wait for that.
15:42:14 <ArtB> AB: comemnts?
15:42:33 <ArtB> JK: could mandate UTF-8 for filenames
15:43:13 <ArtB> Arve: yes we could mandate that but the tools that are used may not be able to support that
15:44:30 <ArtB> Arve: I don't think we want to mandate special tools
15:45:17 <ArtB> ... We have some agreed Design Goals about re-use of existing tools, specs, etc.
15:45:33 <ArtB> ... We must make authoring as simple as possible
15:45:54 <ArtB> MC: I agree with the Arve's comments
15:47:26 <ArtB> AB: so we could address this by taking Jere's recommendation but it would result in some issues with authoring
15:47:56 <ArtB> JK: there could be a conformance service that helps normalize this issue
15:48:16 <ArtB> ... e.g. it is used before a Widget is deployed
15:48:39 <ArtB> Arve: I don't think adding that into the process pipeline will work in practice
15:49:20 <ArtB> MC: I think the best we can do is warn authors about this and we already do that
15:49:42 <ArtB> ... we recommend UTF8 but can't mandate it
15:50:36 <ArtB> Topic: API and Events spec: getting to FPWD:
15:50:49 <ArtB> AB: I submitted some comments to Arve via IRC earlier this week and I believe Arve has addressed them all
15:50:56 <ArtB> ... see http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/webapps/20090127
15:51:06 <ArtB> AB: Arve has made additional edits <http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/widgets-api/>
15:51:13 <ArtB> AB: Arve, what's the status?
15:51:27 <ArtB> Arve: I've received a bunch of comments; thanks All!
15:51:41 <ArtB> ... I think I have addressed every comment I have received
15:51:52 <ArtB> ... check v1.8
15:52:01 <ArtB> ... Still no Refs or Acks sections
15:53:20 <ArtB> AB: I propose we agree this document is ready for a FPWD
15:53:28 <ArtB> AB: any objections?
15:53:31 <ArtB> [None]
15:53:51 <ArtB> RESOLUTION: the API and Events spec is ready for FPWD
15:53:59 <ArtB> AB: thanks Arve and Marcos
15:54:52 <ArtB> AB: ACTION: barstow submit paperwork to publish FPWD of APIs and Events spec
15:55:39 <ArtB> Topic: Proposal to change VC time to one hour earlier
15:55:52 <ArtB> AB: changing the VC time is always a tough issue because there is no real win-win here all of our world wide participants.
15:56:14 <ArtB> AB: nevertheless, are there any objections to moving the VC time to one hour earlier?
15:56:20 <Bryan> q+
15:56:32 <Bryan> One hour earlier conflicts with UWA
15:56:58 <ArtB> AB: Bryan, that is a real bummer
15:57:01 <Bryan> It's a problem for me, but I guess I can switch off
15:57:21 <ArtB> AB: Bryan, what does "switch off" mean?
15:57:27 <Bryan> Alternate
15:57:46 <ArtB> AB: Bryan, do you object to this proposal?
15:57:57 <Bryan> No, just fyi
15:58:20 <ArtB> RESOLUTION: the new voice conference time moving forward will be one hour earlier
15:58:29 <ArtB> AB: any other biz?
15:58:36 <ArtB> MC: I will not be on next week's call
15:59:29 <ArtB> AB: good luck next week with your PhD defense!
15:59:47 <ArtB> Benoit: any comments on the f2f document?
16:00:14 <ArtB> ... http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/images/3/3f/OrangeLab-Issy-venue.pdf
16:00:23 <Zakim> -Andy
16:01:10 <ArtB> Benoit: any changes in attendance?
16:01:19 <ArtB> AB: Arve changed to "likely"
16:02:33 <Zakim> -Mark
16:02:34 <Zakim> -marcos
16:02:35 <Zakim> -Art_Barstow
16:02:35 <Zakim> -Jere
16:02:37 <Zakim> -arve
16:02:44 <Zakim> -Caroline
16:02:51 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:02:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/29-wam-minutes.html ArtB
16:05:07 <JereK> JereK has left #wam
16:05:54 <Zakim> -Mike
16:05:56 <Zakim> IA_WebApps(Widgets)10:00AM has ended
16:05:58 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.919.342.aaaa, Art_Barstow, Andy, Jere, arve, Mark, marcos, Mike, Caroline
16:10:43 <ArtB> zakim, bye
16:10:43 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wam
16:10:48 <ArtB> rrsagent, bye
16:10:48 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/29-wam-actions.rdf :
16:10:48 <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow if we make significant changes to P&C LC, do we need to go back to WD? [1]
16:10:48 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/29-wam-irc#T15-11-45
16:10:48 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Barstow followup with Doug and Mike to coordinate this issue with the SVG WG [2]
16:10:48 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/29-wam-irc#T15-32-53