IRC log of xhtml on 2009-01-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:43:11 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #xhtml
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logging to
14:43:13 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
14:43:13 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #xhtml
14:43:15 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be IA_XHTML2
14:43:15 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see IA_XHTML2()9:45AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
14:43:16 [trackbot]
Meeting: XHTML2 Working Group Teleconference
14:43:16 [trackbot]
Date: 28 January 2009
14:43:33 [Roland]
14:43:42 [Roland]
Chair: Roland
14:44:22 [Zakim]
IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has now started
14:44:29 [Zakim]
14:44:41 [Zakim]
14:44:54 [Zakim]
14:45:05 [ShaneM]
zakim, ??P12 is ShaneM
14:45:05 [Zakim]
+ShaneM; got it
14:45:06 [mgylling]
Zakim, ??P5 is mgylling
14:45:06 [Zakim]
+mgylling; got it
14:45:08 [Roland]
Zakim, ??P5 is mgylling
14:45:08 [Zakim]
I already had ??P5 as mgylling, Roland
14:45:12 [Zakim]
+ +04670855aaaa
14:45:24 [Tina]
Zakim, aaaa is Tina
14:45:24 [Zakim]
+Tina; got it
14:46:08 [alessio]
alessio has joined #xhtml
14:46:32 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-617
14:46:32 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
14:46:34 [Zakim]
14:47:40 [Steven]
Regrets: Gregory
14:47:51 [Steven]
scribe: Steven
14:48:38 [Steven]
Topic: XHTML Media types
14:48:46 [Steven]
Steven: It should be up any minute this afternoon
14:48:56 [Steven]
14:49:22 [Zakim]
14:49:32 [alessio]
zakim, ??P13 is Alessio
14:49:32 [Zakim]
+Alessio; got it
14:49:41 [Steven]
Topic: @lang
14:50:03 [Steven]
Roland: If we want that in the specs, then we would need the change before we do the transition requests
14:50:14 [Steven]
Sahne: I don't min
14:50:27 [Steven]
14:50:29 [Steven]
14:50:42 [Steven]
... but it only really affects 1.1
14:50:58 [Steven]
Roland: Mobile Web want it in Basic as well
14:51:50 [Steven]
Shane: @lang is harmless and helpful
14:52:00 [Steven]
Roland: And there is support from I18N
14:52:33 [Steven]
Shane: We have to say something about how the two interact
14:53:00 [Steven]
... but putting @lang into 1.1 invalidates the XHTML Media types doc
14:53:46 [Steven]
Shane: Someone from Opera complained about us minting new DOCTYPEs
14:54:15 [Steven]
... because they hardwire the DTD names
14:54:30 [Steven]
... I told them that we have rules for DTD names, and it ought to work
14:55:03 [Steven]
... so if you serve Firefox a 1.1+RDFa doc, then character entities don't work
14:55:49 [Steven]
Steven: But the media type says it
14:55:54 [Steven]
Shane: True
14:56:11 [Steven]
Shane: But I am now nervous about telling people to use new DOCTYPES
14:56:30 [Steven]
Tina: People need character entities
14:56:43 [Steven]
Tina: Tricky
14:57:27 [Steven]
Steven: This is a bug in the browser
15:00:46 [Steven]
... strictly they should recognise the DTD
15:00:57 [Steven]
... if they take a shortcut
15:01:48 [Steven]
... recognising a small set of hardwired DTD names is nto good enough
15:02:02 [Steven]
... they should use the namespace (or something)
15:02:07 [Steven]
Shane: Or the media type
15:02:39 [Steven]
Roland: Aren't we off topic; this is a different issue to @lang
15:02:44 [Steven]
Shane: Yes, I ratholed
15:03:56 [Steven]
... the fundamental issue isn't to authors who deliver as text/html, but application/xhtml+xml
15:04:36 [Steven]
... we need to address the larger issue for 1.2
15:05:27 [Steven]
Roland: Anybosy opposed adding @lang to 1.1 for this transition?
15:05:34 [Steven]
15:05:44 [Steven]
s/adding/to adding/
15:06:30 [Steven]
... and Basic
15:07:04 [Steven]
RESOLVED: add @lang to 1.1 and Basic before transitioning
15:07:53 [Steven]
Steven: Should I continue with the transition of 1.0, or wait for them all to go together?
15:08:08 [Steven]
Shane: I can make the change really quickly
15:09:01 [Steven]
... I will send out tomorrow proposed language
15:09:07 [Steven]
... until Friday for comment
15:09:13 [Steven]
... Transition request Monday
15:09:21 [Steven]
Steven: OK
15:09:29 [Steven]
Tina: No objections
15:09:49 [Steven]
15:10:05 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:10:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Steven
15:10:32 [Steven]
Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda:
15:10:43 [Steven]
Tina: I prefer to keep useful elements in
15:10:51 [Roland]
15:13:40 [Steven]
Steven: The attributes are much more useful
15:15:59 [Steven]
... you can't delete or insert a table row for instance
15:16:42 [Steven]
Roland: I think that doing this as metadata works quite well
15:16:58 [Steven]
... but if people are used to ins and del, we could keep them as well
15:18:23 [Steven]
Shane: It is difficult to express the content models of ins and del with schema and DTD
15:18:26 [Steven]
15:22:40 [Steven]
15:23:21 [Steven]
Steven: Attributes make more possible, and in the bargain solves the problem of the messy content models
15:24:57 [Steven]
Roland: insertion and deletion is metadata about a paragraph for instance, not structure
15:25:09 [Steven]
Tina: But what about included text
15:25:20 [Steven]
Roland: That was my proposed compromise
15:25:28 [Steven]
... only allow ins and del in text content
15:25:45 [alessio]
15:26:02 [Steven]
Roland: Let's discuss this in the mail then
15:26:08 [Steven]
15:26:43 [Steven]
Topic: p content model
15:28:11 [Steven]
Steven: I don't see what the problem is
15:28:40 [Steven]
... we enlarged the content model to include what people think of as a paragraph
15:30:27 [Steven]
... People sent us use cases that we agreed to support
15:30:54 [Steven]
... you don't *have* to include quotations or tables in a paragraph, but you have the option
15:31:16 [Steven]
Tina: I'm not convinced that they are valid use cases
15:31:47 [Steven]
... can we dig out some language expert who will resolve this?
15:34:25 [Steven]
Roland: We shouldn't legislate what the user may think of as a paragraph
15:34:33 [Steven]
... the author may decide
15:35:07 [Steven]
Shane: At the moment you can have a p inside a p
15:38:01 [Steven]
... I checked the issues case and indeed we have people asking for this
15:38:08 [Steven]
... but also the reverse
15:40:54 [ShaneM]
I am now convinced by Steven's example.
15:42:24 [ShaneM]
Steven's exeample was a paragraph that said "Today I will do: (some table of stuff) then I will go home."
15:42:57 [Steven]
Steven: I want to be able to write "Here is an example: [[1][2][3][4]], which show sthat...."
15:43:09 [alessio]
I've seen many example, expecially in the public administrations sites
15:43:21 [Steven]
... and I don't want to be disallowed that.
15:43:38 [Steven]
... If you don't want to do that, don't do it, but please don't try to stop me doing it.
15:44:23 [ShaneM]
p content model is currently (PCDATA | Text | List | blockcode | blockquote | pre | table )*
15:44:27 [Steven]
Roland: Time's up
15:45:30 [Steven]
... I will study the content model further
15:45:31 [Zakim]
15:45:33 [Zakim]
15:45:35 [Zakim]
15:45:38 [Steven]
15:45:40 [Zakim]
15:45:41 [Zakim]
15:46:06 [alessio]
bye! :)
15:46:09 [alessio]
alessio has left #xhtml
15:46:19 [Steven]
zakim, who is here?
15:46:19 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Tina
15:46:20 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, ShaneM, Roland, Tina, Steven, trackbot
15:46:25 [Steven]
zakim, dro ptina
15:46:25 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'dro ptina', Steven
15:46:30 [Steven]
zakim, drop tine
15:46:30 [Zakim]
sorry, Steven, I do not see a party named 'tine'
15:46:35 [Steven]
zakim, drop tina
15:46:35 [Zakim]
Tina is being disconnected
15:46:36 [Zakim]
IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has ended
15:46:37 [Zakim]
Attendees were Roland, ShaneM, mgylling, +04670855aaaa, Tina, Steven, Alessio
15:46:42 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:46:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Steven