14:43:11 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #xhtml
14:43:11 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/01/28-xhtml-irc
14:43:13 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:43:13 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #xhtml
14:43:15 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be IA_XHTML2
14:43:15 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see IA_XHTML2()9:45AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
14:43:16 <trackbot> Meeting: XHTML2 Working Group Teleconference
14:43:16 <trackbot> Date: 28 January 2009
14:43:33 <Roland> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Jan/0072.html
14:43:42 <Roland> Chair: Roland
14:44:22 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has now started
14:44:29 <Zakim> +??P5
14:44:41 <Zakim> +Roland
14:44:54 <Zakim> +??P12
14:45:05 <ShaneM> zakim, ??P12 is ShaneM
14:45:05 <Zakim> +ShaneM; got it
14:45:06 <mgylling> Zakim, ??P5 is mgylling
14:45:06 <Zakim> +mgylling; got it
14:45:08 <Roland> Zakim, ??P5 is mgylling
14:45:08 <Zakim> I already had ??P5 as mgylling, Roland
14:45:12 <Zakim> + +04670855aaaa
14:45:24 <Tina> Zakim, aaaa is Tina
14:45:24 <Zakim> +Tina; got it
14:46:08 <alessio> alessio has joined #xhtml
14:46:32 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
14:46:32 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
14:46:34 <Zakim> +Steven
14:47:40 <Steven> Regrets: Gregory
14:47:51 <Steven> scribe: Steven
14:48:38 <Steven> Topic: XHTML Media types
14:48:46 <Steven> Steven: It should be up any minute this afternoon
14:48:56 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-media-types/
14:49:22 <Zakim> +??P13
14:49:32 <alessio> zakim, ??P13 is Alessio
14:49:32 <Zakim> +Alessio; got it
14:49:41 <Steven> Topic: @lang
14:50:03 <Steven> Roland: If we want that in the specs, then we would need the change before we do the transition requests
14:50:14 <Steven> Sahne: I don't min
14:50:27 <Steven> s/Sahne/Shane?
14:50:29 <Steven> s/min/mind/
14:50:42 <Steven> ... but it only really affects 1.1
14:50:58 <Steven> Roland: Mobile Web want it in Basic as well
14:51:50 <Steven> Shane: @lang is harmless and helpful
14:52:00 <Steven> Roland: And there is support from I18N
14:52:33 <Steven> Shane: We have to say something about how the two interact
14:53:00 <Steven> ... but putting @lang into 1.1 invalidates the XHTML Media types doc
14:53:46 <Steven> Shane: Someone from Opera complained about us minting new DOCTYPEs
14:54:15 <Steven> ... because they hardwire the DTD names
14:54:30 <Steven> ... I told them that we have rules for DTD names, and it ought to work
14:55:03 <Steven> ... so if you serve Firefox a 1.1+RDFa doc, then character entities don't work
14:55:49 <Steven> Steven: But the media type says it
14:55:54 <Steven> Shane: True
14:56:11 <Steven> Shane: But I am now nervous about telling people to use new DOCTYPES
14:56:30 <Steven> Tina: People need character entities
14:56:43 <Steven> Tina: Tricky
14:57:27 <Steven> Steven: This is a bug in the browser
15:00:46 <Steven> ... strictly they should recognise the DTD
15:00:57 <Steven> ... if they take a shortcut
15:01:48 <Steven> ... recognising a small set of hardwired DTD names is nto good enough
15:02:02 <Steven> ... they should use the namespace (or something)
15:02:07 <Steven> Shane: Or the media type
15:02:39 <Steven> Roland: Aren't we off topic; this is a different issue to @lang
15:02:44 <Steven> Shane: Yes, I ratholed
15:03:56 <Steven> ... the fundamental issue isn't to authors who deliver as text/html, but application/xhtml+xml
15:04:36 <Steven> ... we need to address the larger issue for 1.2
15:05:27 <Steven> Roland: Anybosy opposed adding @lang to 1.1 for this transition?
15:05:34 <Steven> s/bosy/body/
15:05:44 <Steven> s/adding/to adding/
15:06:30 <Steven> ... and Basic
15:07:04 <Steven> RESOLVED: add @lang to 1.1 and Basic before transitioning
15:07:53 <Steven> Steven: Should I continue with the transition of 1.0, or wait for them all to go together?
15:08:08 <Steven> Shane: I can make the change really quickly
15:09:01 <Steven> ... I will send out tomorrow proposed language
15:09:07 <Steven> ... until Friday for comment
15:09:13 <Steven> ... Transition request Monday
15:09:21 <Steven> Steven: OK
15:09:29 <Steven> Tina: No objections
15:09:49 <Steven> TOPIC: XHTML2
15:10:05 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
15:10:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/28-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
15:10:32 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Jan/0072.html
15:10:43 <Steven> Tina: I prefer to keep useful elements in
15:10:51 <Roland> INS and DEL http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Jan/0012.html
15:13:40 <Steven> Steven: The attributes are much more useful
15:15:59 <Steven> ... you can't delete or insert a table row for instance
15:16:42 <Steven> Roland: I think that doing this as metadata works quite well
15:16:58 <Steven> ... but if people are used to ins and del, we could keep them as well
15:18:23 <Steven> Shane: It is difficult to express the content models of ins and del with schema and DTD
15:18:26 <Steven> q+
15:22:40 <Steven> q-
15:23:21 <Steven> Steven: Attributes make more possible, and in the bargain solves the problem of the messy content models
15:24:57 <Steven> Roland: insertion and deletion is metadata about a paragraph for instance, not structure
15:25:09 <Steven> Tina: But what about included text
15:25:20 <Steven> Roland: That was my proposed compromise
15:25:28 <Steven> ... only allow ins and del in text content
15:25:45 <alessio> +1
15:26:02 <Steven> Roland: Let's discuss this in the mail then
15:26:08 <Steven> s/mail/list
15:26:43 <Steven> Topic: p content model
15:28:11 <Steven> Steven: I don't see what the problem is
15:28:40 <Steven> ... we enlarged the content model to include what people think of as a paragraph
15:30:27 <Steven> ... People sent us use cases that we agreed to support
15:30:54 <Steven> ... you don't *have* to include quotations or tables in a paragraph, but you have the option
15:31:16 <Steven> Tina: I'm not convinced that they are valid use cases
15:31:47 <Steven> ... can we dig out some language expert who will resolve this?
15:34:25 <Steven> Roland: We shouldn't legislate what the user may think of as a paragraph
15:34:33 <Steven> ... the author may decide
15:35:07 <Steven> Shane: At the moment you can have a p inside a p
15:38:01 <Steven> ... I checked the issues case and indeed we have people asking for this
15:38:08 <Steven> ... but also the reverse
15:40:54 <ShaneM> I am now convinced by Steven's example.
15:42:24 <ShaneM> Steven's exeample was a paragraph that said "Today I will do: (some table of stuff) then I will go home."
15:42:57 <Steven> Steven: I want to be able to write "Here is an example: [[1][2][3][4]], which show sthat...."
15:43:09 <alessio> I've seen many example, expecially in the public administrations sites
15:43:21 <Steven> ... and I don't want to be disallowed that.
15:43:38 <Steven> ... If you don't want to do that, don't do it, but please don't try to stop me doing it.
15:44:23 <ShaneM> p content model is currently    (PCDATA |      Text |      List |  blockcode |  blockquote |  pre |  table 	  )*
15:44:27 <Steven> Roland: Time's up
15:45:30 <Steven> ... I will study the content model further
15:45:31 <Zakim> -ShaneM
15:45:33 <Zakim> -mgylling
15:45:35 <Zakim> -Steven
15:45:38 <Steven> [Adjourn]
15:45:40 <Zakim> -Alessio
15:45:41 <Zakim> -Roland
15:46:06 <alessio> bye! :)
15:46:09 <alessio> alessio has left #xhtml
15:46:19 <Steven> zakim, who is here?
15:46:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see Tina
15:46:20 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, ShaneM, Roland, Tina, Steven, trackbot
15:46:25 <Steven> zakim, dro ptina
15:46:25 <Zakim> I don't understand 'dro ptina', Steven
15:46:30 <Steven> zakim, drop tine
15:46:30 <Zakim> sorry, Steven, I do not see a party named 'tine'
15:46:35 <Steven> zakim, drop tina
15:46:35 <Zakim> Tina is being disconnected
15:46:36 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has ended
15:46:37 <Zakim> Attendees were Roland, ShaneM, mgylling, +04670855aaaa, Tina, Steven, Alessio
15:46:42 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
15:46:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/28-xhtml-minutes.html Steven