19:30:58 RRSAgent has joined #svg 19:30:58 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/01/26-svg-irc 19:31:00 RRSAgent, make logs public 19:31:02 Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG 19:31:02 ok, trackbot, I see GA_SVGWG()2:30PM already started 19:31:03 Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference 19:31:03 Date: 26 January 2009 19:31:15 +Shepazu 19:31:31 -??P5 19:32:00 +[IPcaller] 19:32:02 Zakim, [ is me 19:32:02 +heycam; got it 19:32:40 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/agenda 19:33:35 trackbot, start engines 19:33:35 Sorry, ChrisL, I don't understand 'trackbot, start engines'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help 19:35:10 +ChrisL 19:35:38 +??P1 19:36:04 Zakim: ??P1 is jwatt 19:36:31 Zakim: ??P1 is me 19:36:43 +??P6 19:36:46 Zakim, ??P1 is me 19:36:46 +jwatt; got it 19:36:58 Zakim, ??P6 is me 19:36:58 +ed; got it 19:37:03 +[IPcaller] 19:37:08 Zakim, [IP is me 19:37:08 +anthony; got it 19:37:15 of course, we couldn't possibly accept a colon instead of a comma, could we? 19:37:20 agenda+ filter primitive subregions http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/filters.html#FilterPrimitiveSubRegion 19:37:36 Chair: Cameron 19:37:52 Scribe: anthony 19:38:01 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/0059.html 19:38:35 Topic: Errata 19:38:43 ISSUE-2001? 19:38:43 ISSUE-2001 -- Prose describing content model does not match DTD -- OPEN 19:38:43 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2001 19:38:53 http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/errata/errata.xml#font_module_add_fontface 19:39:04 ED: Finished one of my actions 19:39:10 ... have two more for Errata of 1.1 19:39:25 ... one of which was for list separators 19:39:28 ... not sure if we've addressed it 19:39:31 ... but I have an action for it 19:39:54 ACTION-2163? 19:39:54 ACTION-2163 -- Erik Dahlström to add 1.1 errata for stroke-dasharray to align 1.1 with SVGT1.2 (to allow whitespace-separated values) -- due 2008-08-30 -- OPEN 19:39:54 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2163 19:40:09 ED: Stroke Dash-array is the action 19:40:15 ... I remember discussing it 19:40:21 ... doesn't seem to be very recent 19:40:22 ACTION-2165? 19:40:22 ACTION-2165 -- Erik Dahlström to add a 1.1 errata item for having xml:space on tspan elements to align with 1.2T (split out from ACTION-2048) -- due 2008-08-30 -- OPEN 19:40:22 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2165 19:40:56 CMC: For the first one, since I'm meant to be looking at list separators in general 19:41:01 ... you can hold off on that one 19:41:10 ... and the second one I assume we all agreed with it 19:41:20 ... just wondering what things in SVG Tiny 1.2 that relate to this 19:41:31 zakim, who is talking? 19:41:42 ChrisL, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: heycam (4%), anthony (4%), Shepazu (12%) 19:42:02 ED: For the ISSUE-2001 19:42:06 CMC: That looks good for me 19:42:12 ED: Not a major change 19:42:18 ... just aligning the spec with the DTD 19:42:50 CMC: Does the DTD itself does it have fontFace? 19:42:52 ED: Yes 19:43:01 ... not sure if you want to mention it somewhere in the text 19:43:16 CMC: A lot of that chapter you'd have to recreate 19:43:32 CL: You shouldn't have to reverse engineer from examples to figure out what's needed 19:43:43 CMC: I wonder if Tiny has enough stuff to figure out what is needed for that chapter 19:44:22 ACTION: Chris to Check the Tiny 1.2 Chapter to see if there is any text in there that can be used for ISSUE-2001 19:44:23 Created ACTION-2415 - Check the Tiny 1.2 Chapter to see if there is any text in there that can be used for ISSUE-2001 [on Chris Lilley - due 2009-02-02]. 19:44:44 CMC: Do we want to move this to proposed? 19:44:50 ED: I put it as category 2 19:44:57 ... since I didn't think of it as a major change 19:45:12 CL: It's a clarification and not a new feature 19:45:18 ... it's not a conformance change as such 19:45:33 ED: We pretty much already rely on particular behaviour 19:46:50 ... I've moved it to proposed 19:47:04 Topic: XLink attribute definitions have mismatching quotes 19:47:13 http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.2T/errata/errata.xml#xlink-attr-quotes 19:47:38 CMC: Just wanted to get agreement to move to proposed 19:48:07 ... I typed "news" instead of "new" 19:48:17 ED: It looks funny 19:48:25 ... because of the quote marks in the changed text 19:48:52 AG: Looks like "news" | 'replace" | 'embed" | 'other" | 'none" 19:49:20 CMC: Just making a fix for that 19:49:25 ... check the update now 19:49:29 AG: Looks good to me 19:50:05 CMC: I guess we can move that to proposed 19:50:09 AG: Yes 19:50:13 ED: Looks fine to me 19:50:15 Yes, straightforward 19:50:37 Topic: Focus behavior when focussed element hidden 19:50:41 http://www.w3.org/mid/Pine.LNX.4.62.0901230045130.7181@hixie.dreamhostps.com 19:51:06 CMC: Mail is from Ian 19:51:26 ... we asked HTML if they had any definition for this 19:51:37 ... seems like they are looking at it at the moment 19:51:48 DS: We did kind of define it 19:52:06 ... we just picked what was most intuitive 19:52:20 CMC: I guess that's the information that he's after 19:52:39 ... Doug did you want to reply to that 19:52:42 DS: That's fine 19:52:48 ... I should confirm this in our spec 19:52:59 ... as I recall that's what we had decided as the default 19:53:10 CMC: What was decided? 19:53:15 DS: Hang let me see 19:53:47 ... if an element has focus and it is removed from the DOM or set to display none 19:53:54 ... it should lose focus 19:54:04 ... and root should get focus 19:54:19 ... it should also throw a focus out event 19:54:44 ... if the element has display none taken off it goes gain focus automatically 19:55:02 s/root/document/ 19:55:07 s/it goes/it doesn't/ 19:55:21 DS: I'll confirm the spec and replay to Ian 19:57:16 ACTION: Doug to Check the specification to verify the focus behaviour of an element that loses focus then reply to Ian's email about it 19:57:16 Created ACTION-2416 - Check the specification to verify the focus behaviour of an element that loses focus then reply to Ian's email about it [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-02-02]. 19:57:44 DS: Under the most intuitive place under element focus I don't see it 19:57:56 Zakim, take up the next agendum 19:57:56 I don't understand 'take up the next agendum', heycam 19:58:02 Zakim, take up next agendum 19:58:02 agendum 1. "filter primitive subregions http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/filters.html#FilterPrimitiveSubRegion" taken up [from jwatt] 19:58:17 Topic: filter primitive subregions http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/filters.html#FilterPrimitiveSubRegion 19:58:44 JW: I'll paste something in first 19:58:51 19:58:52 19:58:54 19:58:55 19:58:57 19:58:59 19:58:59 I'm wondering what that should do 19:59:00 19:59:02 19:59:26 JW: It all comes down to Filter Primative Subregion 20:00:17 ED: Currently opera isn't handling anything that is outside of the Root Filter region 20:00:29 JW: The Mozilla code seems to be mixed up about it 20:00:37 ... this should give a green rect that covers the red rect 20:00:43 ... correct? 20:01:22 s/Primative/Primitive/ 20:01:43 ED: The default subregion is the root filter region 20:02:06 JW: Imagine that on the filter element I set x,y=0 and width,height=100% 20:02:16 "All intermediate offscreens are defined to not exceed the intersection of the filter primitive subregion with the filter region." 20:02:36 CL: [Reads spec out] 20:02:50 ... so if you have something completely outside of it then the intersection is 0 20:02:51 so the intersection is zero 20:03:25 JW: Wasn't really sure if that was just intended as the end result or if that was instructions for intermediate steps 20:03:49 ... at the beginning when it says what the filter subregion says it could say that 20:04:59 ... it could say explicitly when it's talking about x,y width,height it says that the filter subregion about x,y,width,height 20:05:10 ... Chris is right it does say something about exceeding the filter region 20:05:16 ... but it didn't say that at the start 20:05:34 ... it might be helpful to add something like that at the start in one of the first paragraphs 20:05:44 ... but I'm not sure if it's useful to have filters behave that way 20:05:50 ... when you have feOffset 20:06:13 ... it's useful to have a filter subregion to have something outside of the main region 20:06:26 ED: You can still do that using filterUnits="UserSpaceOnUse" 20:06:50 JW: I'm not sure 20:07:01 ... you could actually make filter region bigger by doing that 20:07:24 ... but you could still potentially have feImage that has part of it outside the filter region 20:07:28 ED: Can you give an example 20:07:34 ... so you have an image feImage 20:07:44 ... that part of is outside the entire canvas? 20:08:05 JW: let's just say my element is 100 x 100 and I have an feImage 20:08:18 ... that is outside side the 100 x 100 area 20:08:30 ... I want to use feOffset to translate it to the correct area 20:08:40 ED: Could you use x,y to move it there? 20:08:44 JW: I guess you probably could 20:09:01 ED: You could specify x,y on it 20:09:17 ... I think you might be able to put transform on it, I'm not 100% sure on that though 20:09:22 http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/filters/publish/SVGFilter.html 20:11:05 jwatt has joined #svg 20:11:05 JW: I was hoping this would be more simple 20:11:19 CL: I doped a link in 20:11:24 ... to the chapter 20:11:34 ED: I have a huge backlog of actions on Filters 20:11:46 ... I'm hoping to have a bunch of them figure for the SVG f2f meeting 20:11:59 ... it is possible that I have one on filters subregion 20:12:07 http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/filters/publish/SVGFilter.html 20:12:23 ... but I do remember defining something in the Filters 1.2 20:13:37 CMC: So should we take this one to email then? 20:13:43 CL: I suspect that might be best 20:13:55 ED: I wouldn't mind seeing use cases that couldn't be handled 20:14:07 ... for filter subregions bigger than the main region 20:14:53 Topic: Focus behavior when focussed element hidden Again 20:15:01 DS: Looks like we deferred it to SVG 2.0 20:15:18 ... I do recall making a test for it 20:15:24 ... well testing for it 20:15:32 ... and there was no conforming behaviour 20:15:43 ... we don't have any normative language in the spec about it 20:16:07 ... there was no one set behaviour in HTML 20:16:23 ... I think it comes down to us just deciding something 20:17:31 CMC: I don't particularly mind what we choose to suggest to the HTML people 20:17:44 ... and wait to hear back from them 20:17:55 ... I'd be fine with what you were suggesting before 20:18:05 DS: Ok I'll correspond with them 20:18:16 ... does anyone else have a strong feeling on the subject? 20:18:35 ED: I'm just wondering there are things that could be more useful 20:18:42 ... when the element loses focus 20:18:53 ... the focus could go up the chain 20:18:59 CL: Next focusable parent 20:19:09 ... which could be the document 20:19:12 closest focussable parent 20:19:22 DS: I'm thinking of forms 20:19:37 ... if there is a focus ring defined in SVG 20:19:48 ... it might make sense to go to the previous focus item 20:19:54 ... failing that go to the parent 20:20:17 CL: Going to the previous one makes more sense 20:20:23 ... so the parent is fallback 20:20:34 ... I agree with you 20:20:50 DS: To me that would be the more requested behaviour because it doesn't take you out of the context 20:21:46 CL: If the author is concerned they could explicitly move the focus to an element before removing 20:21:57 ... we are trying to make a reasonable fallback case 20:22:03 ... for when authors don't do anything 20:22:31 DS: We should explicitly say this is going to be the behaviour so consider changing the focus manually 20:22:43 ... I'll go to them with the above proposal and with any tests I can find 20:22:49 ... and see if they want to align 20:22:56 ... I think the good thing is we haven't specified it 20:23:06 ... so we can have unified behaviour 20:24:00 Topic: Filter Primitive Subregions Again 20:24:18 JW: So basically my question is what seems to be underspecified 20:24:46 ... say I have filter region 200x200 20:25:21 ... this is only a problem sorry 20:25:41 ... scrap this 20:26:04 ... it's only a problem if you allow filter primitive subregions to extend beyond the filter region 20:26:45 Topic: Selection of Thursday telcon topic 20:27:01 CMC: Not sure we worked a procedure to figuring out how to pick topics for Thursday's telcon 20:27:10 ED: Suggestions always welcome 20:27:21 DS: We normally select things Adhoc 20:27:31 ... so I don't see anything wrong with picking topics now 20:27:40 s/Suggestions/agenda requests are/ 20:27:59 ... Chris how's your progress on your module 20:28:19 ... it would be nice to have a prepared list of topics 20:28:28 ED: Maybe on the wiki page 20:29:00 DS: Cameron's got the Use Case and requirements for the layout module 20:29:14 agenda+, selectors-api http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Jan/0035.html 20:29:18 CMC: I'll probably want to flesh that out a bit more before discussion anything on a telcon 20:29:33 ... but if people want to suggest requirements that would be great as well 20:29:49 DS: What about filters? Could we talk about filters? 20:30:00 ED: I believe we covered part of that on Thursday 20:30:22 ... I'm hoping to go over some of the actions I have and I'm hoping to push out a publication around the F2F 20:30:45 DS: And Anthony you said something about the compositing module 20:31:46 AG: Yes, Erik and discussed the enable-background property 20:31:54 ... so I'm pretty much going to use what's in Filters 20:32:15 DS: And we can get Print on the agenda at some point 20:32:19 CL: That would be good 20:32:52 ED: Someone should take an action to update the wiki table using the minutes from the previous telcon 20:32:59 CL: I can update it 20:33:19 ... do you have an existing action you can allocate to me? 20:33:24 DS: I'd have to look through 20:33:41 CMC: I noticed there were a number of issues posted on Core for new features 20:33:51 ... I'm not sure what context they belong it 20:33:55 s/it/in/ 20:34:26 ... they don't really correspond to any of the modules 20:34:33 ... it sounds like a good Thursday thing 20:45:14 Zakim, take up next agendum 20:45:14 agendum 2. ", selectors-api http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Jan/0035.html" taken up [from ed] 20:45:20 Topic: selectors-api mail 20:45:24 ED: Selectors API 20:45:34 http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/selectors-api/#examples0 20:45:43 ED: Noticed we got an email 20:46:48 ... scroll down at the bottom of the section and there's an example that shows how to selects API and scripting to select elements based on namespaces 20:47:10 ... you have to filter results from selects API since it doesn't have name spaces 20:47:23 instead of filtering the selector results, it would be so much simpler if it just supported namespaces, like selectors itself does 20:48:11 ED: This particular is sort of a compromise he doesn't really mention DOM3 Xpath but he does give the example 20:48:22 CMC: So the suggestion before was in DOM3 Xpath 20:48:27 ... if you need namespaces 20:48:30 ED: right 20:48:54 ... are we fine with this? 20:48:58 ... it looks fine to me 20:49:07 ... doesn't look like it will have Xpath in it anyway 20:49:11 CL: Yes, that's fine 20:49:20 ED: So unless I fine any other undressed issues 20:49:29 ... can I respond to the list saying we are fine with the changes? 20:49:34 DS: Yes, that should be alright 20:49:44 s/fine any other undressed/find any other unaddressed/ 20:50:16 Topic: ISSUE-2037 20:50:20 ISSUE-2037? 20:50:20 ISSUE-2037 -- Define how focusHighlight is applied when put on a container element -- RAISED 20:50:20 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2037 20:50:35 CMC: Erik I think you raised this issue 20:50:49 ... it looks like something we should of looked at before 20:51:02 ... is this the issue Chris P raised? 20:51:07 ED: I could be related to this I guess 20:51:33 ... although I'm not sure it's really defined in 1.2 Tiny what happens for this particular case 20:51:53 ... you have which is focusable, then you have a child that has focus auto 20:51:57 ... the question is what happens 20:52:16 CMC: I suppose it would be preferable if it was defined 20:52:22 ... what does Opera do in this case? 20:52:39 ED: I think but not 100% the element does have the focus 20:52:51 ... well, the current value of focusHighlight would be used 20:52:57 CMC: You mean it would be overridden 20:53:05 ED: It should probably be tested though 20:53:31 ACTION: Erik to Test the focus highlight problem is SVG Tiny 1.2 relating to ISSUE-2037 20:53:31 Created ACTION-2417 - Test the focus highlight problem is SVG Tiny 1.2 relating to ISSUE-2037 [on Erik Dahlström - due 2009-02-02]. 20:54:15 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/0061.html 20:54:56 Topic: Core 20:55:07 DS: I could be the editor of the integration spec 20:55:09 ... for the modules 20:55:32 ... I guess what I'm saying is I'm offering to work on the integrating spec 20:55:36 ... whatever that might be 20:55:44 ... SVG 1.2 Full - but I'd rather not use that 20:56:08 ... but I'll pull together some spec that addresses things in a larger way that references some specs 20:56:28 ... and we'll call it whatever we want to call it 20:56:36 Topic: BoundingBox Thing 20:56:39 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/0061.html 20:56:52 CMC: Niklas sent this email 20:57:12 DS: I don't know if we put this in the spec 20:57:25 ... but we did decide what the behaviour was 20:57:35 ... it's essentially if you have just a text element 20:57:38 ... so it's just a line 20:57:56 CMC: I think I remember you discussing this 20:58:05 ... if width OR height is auto 20:58:16 ... so he's asking for that auto dimension 20:58:35 ... should it be infinite or just the space it consumed 20:58:37 DS: Oh I see 20:58:46 ... It should be space 20:59:00 ... [Reads spec out] 20:59:03 [[ 20:59:04 If both 'width' and 'height' have the value 'auto', the text will be rendered in a single line along the direction of the text progression until all the text is rendered, or until a line-breaking element such as 'tbreak' is encountered, in which case the remaining text is rendered on a new line. 20:59:06 ]] 20:59:29 DS: We don't explicitly say what the BBox is 20:59:29 http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/coords.html#BoundingBox 20:59:37 CL: Right we don't say 20:59:49 ED: We do say in general terms 21:00:06 s/don't say/don't say explicitly/ 21:00:20 ED: I guess you could auto does mean enclosed 21:00:29 DS: It wouldn't hurt to define it 21:00:54 CMC: If the width=100 and longest line is 95 then the BBox is 100x95 21:01:00 DS: Correct 21:01:06 ... No wait 21:01:14 ... that's an interesting point 21:01:29 ... the width of the textArea is not the size of the content 21:01:37 [[ For text content elements, for the purposes of the bounding box calculation, each glyph must be treated as a separate graphics element. The calculations must assume that all glyphs occupy the full glyph cell. For example, for horizontal text, the calculations must assume that each glyph extends vertically to the full ascent and descent values for the font. An exception to this is the 'textArea', which uses that element's geometry for the bounding box calculation.]] 21:01:40 ... we do mention BBox textArea 21:02:01 [[ An exception to this is the 'textArea', which uses that element's geometry for the bounding box calculation. ]] 21:02:27 DS: That's not actually quite true 21:02:34 ... unless width and height are auto 21:02:46 CMC: If any of the two dimensions set to auto 21:03:00 ... it's going to be the longest line of text or the height of the text 21:03:05 ... is that correct? 21:03:22 ED: I think that's what we want 21:03:25 , unless width and height are auto, in which case it is the geometry of the rendered text, as with the 'text' element 21:03:54 CMC: For the case of height of being auto do we want to care about lines of text or just the actual shapes that go in there? 21:04:00 ED: that's an interesting point the line height 21:04:08 s/ED/DS/ 21:04:25 CMC: I can't remember what the line height thing was 21:04:51 DS: I know it's aligned with XSL-FO 21:05:00 [as corrected by Chris] 21:05:31 DS: That line height is an interesting point we don't actually say what should happen there 21:05:48 ... if width and height are auto 21:05:57 ... we don't explicitly say what happens 21:06:49 ACTION: Doug to Investigate what the BBox size is when textArea width and height are auto and respond to Niklas's email 21:06:49 Created ACTION-2418 - Investigate what the BBox size is when textArea width and height are auto and respond to Niklas's email [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-02-02]. 21:07:27 -ChrisL 21:07:35 -ed 21:07:38 -heycam 21:07:41 -anthony 21:07:42 -Shepazu 21:09:20 RRSAgent, bye 21:09:20 I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/26-svg-actions.rdf : 21:09:20 ACTION: Chris to Check the Tiny 1.2 Chapter to see if there is any text in there that can be used for ISSUE-2001 [1] 21:09:20 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/26-svg-irc#T19-44-22 21:09:20 ACTION: Doug to Check the specification to verify the focus behaviour of an element that loses focus then reply to Ian's email about it [2] 21:09:20 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/26-svg-irc#T19-57-16 21:09:20 ACTION: Erik to Test the focus highlight problem is SVG Tiny 1.2 relating to ISSUE-2037 [3] 21:09:20 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/26-svg-irc#T20-53-31 21:09:20 ACTION: Doug to Investigate what the BBox size is when textArea width and height are auto and respond to Niklas's email [4] 21:09:20 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/26-svg-irc#T21-06-49 21:09:31 Zakim, bye 21:09:31 leaving. As of this point the attendees were Shepazu, [IPcaller], heycam, ChrisL, jwatt, ed, anthony 21:09:31 Zakim has left #svg 21:10:58 RRSAgent has joined #svg 21:10:58 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/01/26-svg-irc 21:11:06 RRSAgent, make minutes 21:11:06 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/26-svg-minutes.html anthony 21:20:37 heycam has joined #svg 21:29:29 nope 21:59:41 heycam has joined #svg 22:14:42 RRSAgent, make minutes 22:14:42 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/26-svg-minutes.html anthony 22:20:34 shepazu, for some reason RRSAgent 403 error when I try to make the minutes 22:20:49 any ideas on how to fix this? 22:51:23 jwatt has joined #svg 22:55:22 anthony: http://www.w3.org/2009/01/26-svg-minutes.html should work now 23:00:48 thanks shepazu! 23:00:50 =D 23:01:00 np, anthony 23:03:24 oh one other thing shepazu, the http://cgi.w3.org/cgi-bin/html2txt?url=http://www.w3.org/2009/01/26-svg-minutes.html link seems to have "Insufficient Access Privileges" problem as well 23:03:38 like when you type in "http://www.w3.org/2009/01/26-svg-minutes.html,text" 23:03:43 sigh 23:04:05 they redid access controls, let me see what the workaround is 23:04:12 did you use your login? 23:04:13 oh ok 23:04:29 I logged in with my browser before. let me try another one 23:05:46 nah, same problem 23:05:56 on another browser 23:06:03 after logging in 23:06:05 :( 23:07:28 ok, sorry about this 23:09:56 that's ok - not your fault 23:21:11 anthony: I'll try to sort it out 23:21:18 and send them on 23:21:40 um, ok shepazu, only if you have time 23:21:48 otherwise I can manually make the text bit 23:21:51 it's not that hard 23:21:59 (in the meantime that is) 23:23:20 hey, anthony, try once more 23:23:56 sorry - no go 23:24:19 WAIT 23:24:25 shepazu, we have a winner! 23:24:32 cool 23:24:33 I did a complete refresh and it asked for a log in 23:24:43 Good Work! 23:24:45 =D