16:55:45 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #css
16:55:45 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/01/21-css-irc
16:55:50 <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
16:55:50 <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
16:57:44 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
16:57:51 <Zakim> + +1.415.738.aaaa
16:58:13 <jdaggett> +1.415.738.aaaa is jdaggett
16:58:39 <jdaggett> zakim, +1.415.738.aaaa is jdaggett
16:58:39 <Zakim> +jdaggett; got it
16:59:06 <jdaggett> zakim, who is here
16:59:06 <Zakim> jdaggett, you need to end that query with '?'
16:59:19 <jdaggett> zakim, who is here?
16:59:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see jdaggett
16:59:20 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, emilyw, jdaggett, myakura, arronei, anne, shepazu_away, plinss, krijnh, plinss_, Hixie, Bert, trackbot, hsivonen
16:59:42 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
17:00:12 <arronei> zakim, Microsoft is arronei
17:00:12 <Zakim> +arronei; got it
17:00:42 <Zakim> +glazou
17:00:43 <glazou> aaah
17:01:09 <glazou> is there someone else on the call ? It's all silent here
17:01:18 <Zakim> +??P20
17:01:31 <Zakim> +plinss
17:01:32 <emilyw> zakim, P20 is emilyw
17:01:32 <Zakim> sorry, emilyw, I do not recognize a party named 'P20'
17:01:43 <emilyw> zakim, ??P20 is emilyw
17:01:44 <Zakim> +emilyw; got it
17:03:08 <Zakim> +??P33
17:03:18 <glazou> no, a mac kbd :)
17:03:23 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #css
17:03:26 <jdaggett> heh
17:03:31 <glazou> I switched to the bright side of the force
17:03:33 <glazou> ;)
17:03:41 <jdaggett> very good!
17:03:48 <Zakim> + +1.253.250.aabb
17:04:43 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
17:04:47 <glazou> as soon as they're not ancient
17:04:57 <Zakim> + +47.21.64.aacc
17:05:41 <Zakim> +ChrisL
17:05:45 <Zakim> +Bert
17:06:46 <fantasai> fantasai has joined #css
17:06:54 <howcome> howcome has joined #css
17:07:16 <ChrisL> Scribe: Chris
17:07:22 <ChrisL> ScribeNick: ChrisL
17:07:30 <ChrisL> rrsagent, here
17:07:30 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2009/01/21-css-irc#T17-07-30
17:07:40 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make logs public
17:07:45 <Zakim> +SteveZ
17:08:27 <ChrisL> Topic: CSS 2.1 Test suite
17:09:08 <fantasai> Arron: We're almost done on our end, and we're starting to upload files to the review server. 
17:09:12 <ChrisL> arron: nearing completion of our testsuite and bugun uploading to review server. Aprox 7k files need to be reviewed
17:09:27 <ChrisL> ... ned to share the effort
17:09:34 <dbaron> dbaron has joined #css
17:09:34 <ChrisL> s/ned/need/
17:09:51 <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
17:09:59 <ChrisL> s/Aprox/approx/
17:10:06 <dbaron> Zakim, [Mozilla] has David_Baron
17:10:06 <Zakim> +David_Baron; got it
17:10:11 <ChrisL> Daniel: How long did that take to write?
17:10:18 <ChrisL> Arron: About 3 months
17:10:35 <ChrisL> ... expect 5-6 months to review
17:10:43 <ChrisL> Daniel: Coverage?
17:10:56 <sylvaing> sylvaing has joined #css
17:10:58 <ChrisL> Arron: Not chapter 13, assume melinda and HP have that covered
17:11:10 <ChrisL> s/Melin/Melin
17:11:11 <sylvaing> Zakim, [Microsoft] has sylvaing, alexmog
17:11:12 <Zakim> +sylvaing, alexmog; got it
17:11:17 <ChrisL> s/melin/Melin
17:11:47 <fantasai> Glazou: This test suite is the highest priority of the working group
17:11:49 <ChrisL> Daniel: Release of CSS 2.1 is highest charter proiority. Each organisation needs to contribute or else this will never happen
17:12:05 <ChrisL> Hakon: This is a public review surely
17:12:17 <ChrisL> Elika: Difficult to coordinate public review
17:12:48 <ChrisL> ... how to track stus of individual tests,track tests and comments and status. 
17:13:07 <szilles> szilles has joined #css
17:13:08 <ChrisL> ... previously used mailing list, ok for low volume but not for a ton of tests
17:13:49 <ChrisL> ... needs a comment tracking system for individual tests
17:14:14 <ChrisL> ... Peter and I designed such a syste but its not been built
17:14:33 <ChrisL> David: There are different types of review needed. Will not get all types on all tests
17:14:38 <ChrisL> Daniel: Agree
17:15:12 <ChrisL> David: Useful to  have public review anythingthey want, but need comment tracking and fixing in a timely manner so we dont get duplicate comments too much
17:15:29 <ChrisL> Arron: No problem with timely update to each file
17:15:43 <ChrisL> Daniel: maybe a bugzilla withas bug per test
17:15:55 <ChrisL> s/withas/with a /
17:16:27 <ChrisL> Elika: Its a lot of overhead. Wiki has less overhead per test, stilla lot of hassle. Often need to comment on multiple tests
17:16:47 <ChrisL> s/stilla/still a/
17:17:02 <ChrisL> ... tests come in sets, often a comment applies to multiple tests
17:17:38 <ChrisL> Daniel: technical side is less important, needs to be efficient enough that all in WG can contribute to the reviews
17:17:39 <fantasai> Zakim, who is here?
17:17:39 <Zakim> On the phone I see jdaggett, arronei, glazou, emilyw, plinss, ??P33, +1.253.250.aabb, [Microsoft], +47.21.64.aacc, ChrisL, Bert, SteveZ, [Mozilla]
17:17:41 <Zakim> [Microsoft] has sylvaing, alexmog
17:17:41 <Zakim> [Mozilla] has David_Baron
17:17:43 <Zakim> On IRC I see szilles, sylvaing, dbaron, howcome, fantasai, ChrisL, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, emilyw, jdaggett, myakura, arronei, anne, shepazu_away, plinss, krijnh, plinss_, Hixie,
17:17:46 <Zakim> ... Bert, trackbot, hsivonen
17:17:48 <ChrisL> David: What VCS is being used?
17:18:14 <ChrisL> ... maybe allow people to post patches using a distributed VCS
17:18:26 <ChrisL> Elika: Its sing subversion at the moment
17:18:34 <ChrisL> s/sing/using/
17:18:43 <ChrisL> Hakon: Could we use media wiki?
17:19:05 <ChrisL> Daniel: Subversion has command line plus extensions for MacOS, Windows etc
17:19:30 <ChrisL> ... eg TortoiseSVN etc. Anyone should be able to use it
17:19:40 <ChrisL> Chris: Yes, SVG is a good idea
17:19:58 <ChrisL> Hakon: Need to be able to add comments without changingthe files themselves
17:20:07 <sylvaing> technology is not as hard as figuring out how and when a testcase has been reviewed imo
17:20:33 <ChrisL> Peter: So we designed a system to do that, database 
17:21:17 <szilles> Chris: tests are written in XML with list of statuses and authoring metadata
17:22:00 <szilles> Chris: we used Tracker to deal with comments, as Elika says this was inefficient for multitest comments
17:22:55 <szilles> Chris: we used CVS for the test cases
17:22:58 <ChrisL> Hakon: Could do like sorce files with  comments at the top to describe changes
17:23:08 <ChrisL> Bert: might break some tests
17:23:49 <ChrisL> Bert: Need simple review. Most tests likely correct
17:24:15 <ChrisL> Daniel: No, because from selectors we saw that the initially plausible tests ended up with many small changes
17:25:08 <ChrisL> Hakon: Get www-style to help and get review comments on those which are wrong
17:25:23 <ChrisL> David: Hard is everyone passes a test but its still wrong
17:25:46 <ChrisL> Chris: Yes that sort of test is hard to catch
17:26:15 <ChrisL> David: Need to link specific issues to affected tests
17:26:38 <ChrisL> Steve: One way is to run them against implementations that are known bad. if they stil pass there is an issue
17:27:12 <ChrisL> Elika: A wiki has too much overhead, and performance issues with that many tests.
17:27:29 <alexmog> alexmog has joined #css
17:27:34 <ChrisL> ... so options are bugzilla, tracker, or build something (if done soon)
17:27:50 <ChrisL> David: Not convinced the mail list would fail
17:28:04 <ChrisL> Elika: Its failing already to track all tests.
17:28:29 <ChrisL> David; "has been reviewed already" is not really a binary state
17:28:43 <ChrisL> Bert: Need some criterion to move it to the public site
17:29:02 <ChrisL> David: Judgement call based on how long tests are around, comfort factor
17:29:23 <ChrisL> Bert: Peole only say about tests with problems, not tests they thought were fine
17:30:18 <sylvaing> oops. never mind :)
17:30:35 <ChrisL> Daniel: In Selectors test suite this was not an issue. if over several months no-one reported a problem, it still  goes in the test suite
17:30:58 <ChrisL> Chris: Sometimes approved tests have bugs filed on them and are withdrawn or fixed. its like shipping software
17:31:36 <ChrisL> Arron: prefer bugzilla over wiki or a mail list
17:32:01 <ChrisL> ... can raise a bug on a range of tests eg background-*
17:32:12 <ChrisL> ... thats how ewe do it internally, in a database
17:32:22 <ChrisL> s/ewe/we/
17:32:36 <ChrisL> Daniel: So do you open a new bug for all reviewed tests?
17:32:44 <ChrisL> Arron: No, only failed ones
17:33:04 <ChrisL> Daniel: But then you do not know which tests have even been looked at
17:33:41 <ChrisL> Elika: Could use bugzilla to track problems but a wiki page where people can put their names against specific tests as being ok
17:34:10 <ChrisL> Daniel: Good compromise I think. This is very important, everyone shoudl commit some time to review them
17:34:34 <ChrisL> David: Would like to propose patches and commit fixes, do i need permission? od do it and log that it was done?
17:34:40 <ChrisL> s/od/Or/
17:34:55 <ChrisL> Arron: need to be updated somehow 
17:34:56 <Bert> (Wiki... or just an HTML page under CVS, the same CVS as the tests themselves?)
17:35:13 <glazou> isn't it http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/CSS/CSS2.1-test-suite/ ?
17:35:16 <ChrisL> Peter: Tests currently in SVN
17:35:42 <fantasai> http://test.csswg.org/svn/
17:35:45 <glazou> ok
17:35:47 <ChrisL> David: Multiple reports of errors and the tests not changing is discouraging for further effort by the public
17:35:49 <plinss> or http://svn.csswg.org/test/
17:36:04 <ChrisL> Hakon: yes. Also for 7k files we need a map overview of the overall stat
17:36:10 <plinss> and http://svn.csswg.org/viewvc/
17:36:13 <ChrisL> s/stat/state/
17:36:52 <ChrisL> Hakon: very useful to have a tool, eg in OOXML and OF they had this same problem
17:37:18 <ChrisL> Elika: We have plans for a system but lack time and budget to build it
17:37:28 <ChrisL> Peter: i get time here and there but not enough
17:37:55 <ChrisL> Hakon: Don't know anyone at Opera who could build that system
17:38:56 <ChrisL> Daniel: Dont want to be stuck where we have tests but can't move forward as we want new tools. Have already reviewed tests with no svn, no wiki and it still worked. We need to start. in the worst case a maillost ise nough, with good subject lines
17:39:18 <ChrisL> s/isenough/is enough/
17:39:38 <ChrisL> Hakon: So if someone says a thousand tests have a given error
17:39:59 <ChrisL> Arron: Then I would fix them and commit in the next few weeks
17:40:20 <ChrisL> David: Please encourage bug reporters to submit patches as well
17:40:35 <ChrisL> Hakon: OK as long as the patches are tracked
17:40:42 <ChrisL> Elika: SVG does that
17:40:55 <ChrisL> Hakon: So anyone on www-style can make patches?
17:41:04 <ChrisL> Daniel: Make, or apply, patches?
17:41:05 <fantasai> s/SVG/SVN/
17:41:11 <ChrisL> Hakon: i meant commit
17:41:25 <ChrisL> Elika: So they would need svn acces, not an issue
17:41:43 <ChrisL> Hakon: if we get a crank then we can revert their changes
17:42:25 <ChrisL> Elika: So send ok patches and you get SVN access?
17:42:48 <ChrisL> David: Somewhere in that area. establishing trust after some good submission on the mailing list
17:43:08 <ChrisL> Arron: no issue withanyone on the WG having SVG access straight away.
17:43:16 <fantasai> s/SVG/SVN/
17:43:23 <ChrisL> Daniel: Complex bugs would be discussed on the list first of course
17:43:38 <ChrisL> Hakon: What we are not recording is the "ok" remarks
17:44:14 <ChrisL> Chris: Elika mentioned a wiki page overview
17:44:39 <ChrisL> Daniel: Mailing list is better, just say what has been looked at
17:44:50 <ChrisL> Elika: hard to get an overview that way
17:45:38 <ChrisL> Daniel: Not going to block the test suite forever. if a trusted review has happened then we go ahead. its trust, not number of reviews
17:45:51 <ChrisL> hakon: But we need to track who has reviewed which test
17:46:28 <ChrisL> Chris: yes you need to always log the revision number of each test reviewed
17:46:47 <ChrisL> Elika so suppose we use the mail list for nowe tosend in reviews and Arron fixes them
17:47:04 <ChrisL> Danile: OK as long as there are positive reviews as well as bug reports
17:47:20 <ChrisL> Elika: OK so needs test names in subject line
17:47:56 <ChrisL> Peter: Our system uses directory structure , svn allows files to be moved so a test can be moved to indicate status
17:48:09 <ChrisL> Chris: Thats a bigadvantage of SVN over CVS
17:48:19 <ChrisL> s/biga/big a/
17:49:05 <ChrisL> Elika: Moving files does break URIs
17:49:21 <ChrisL> Daniel: Lets get started with the mailing list to get started
17:49:36 <ChrisL> Peter: Will work on system as time allows
17:49:52 <ChrisL> Hakon: Existing documentation on how to review?
17:49:56 <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/test
17:49:58 <ChrisL> Peter: See wiki
17:50:09 <dbaron> CSS2.1-test-suite/incoming/microsoft $ find . -name "*.xht" | wc -l
17:50:09 <dbaron> 6455
17:50:14 <dbaron> Are these the 7000 tests we're talking about?
17:50:40 <ChrisL> Daniel: Please tell the mailing list where the documentation is 
17:51:06 <ChrisL> Daniel: Tests are all xht?
17:51:33 <arronei> Yes those are the beginning of the 7000 tests there are still more I need to upload
17:51:35 <ChrisL> Elika: Thats the filename that Tantek and Hixie decided on. OK as long as server serves them with correct media type
17:51:43 <plinss> Browsable tests: http://test.csswg.org/source/
17:51:59 <ChrisL> Topic: Berts question on new release
17:52:39 <dbaron> arronei, are the ~700 tests from a year or two ago included in those?
17:52:46 <ChrisL> Bert: Current CR is 18 months od, lots of errata. good to ipublish a new version with all errata incliuded, and have an empty erratum list again. Suggest publish another CR, no  status change just an update
17:53:12 <ChrisL> Chris: +1 to that, much easier to read and avoids duplicate bug reports
17:53:19 <ChrisL> Arron: Are there diffs?
17:53:46 <ChrisL> Bert: Yes, member only but we could publish it. Not guaranteed to be valid HTML due to the tool used
17:54:00 <ChrisL> Bert: no problem
17:54:02 <RRSAgent> I'm logging.  Sorry, nothing found for 'who is on the phone'
17:54:10 <ChrisL> zaki, who is here?
17:54:17 <ChrisL> zakim, who is here?
17:54:17 <Zakim> On the phone I see jdaggett, arronei, glazou, emilyw, plinss, ??P33, +1.253.250.aabb, [Microsoft], +47.21.64.aacc, ChrisL, Bert, SteveZ, [Mozilla]
17:54:19 <Zakim> [Microsoft] has sylvaing, alexmog
17:54:20 <Zakim> [Mozilla] has David_Baron
17:54:22 <Zakim> On IRC I see alexmog, szilles, sylvaing, dbaron, howcome, fantasai, ChrisL, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, emilyw, jdaggett, arronei, anne, plinss, krijnh, plinss_, Hixie, Bert,
17:54:25 <Zakim> ... trackbot, hsivonen
17:54:37 <ChrisL> Daniel: Jon had an agenda item on JLTF
17:54:43 <ChrisL> Topic: JLTF
17:54:53 <ChrisL> zakim, who is speaking?
17:54:58 <glazou> jdagget
17:55:04 <Zakim> ChrisL, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: jdaggett (15%), glazou (24%), ChrisL (39%)
17:55:36 <ChrisL> John: Coold we get an afternoon for this?
17:55:54 <ChrisL> (general agreement, Weds pm)
17:56:16 <ChrisL> John: Also please send email if there are things that are needed
17:56:44 <jdaggett> http://tinyurl.com/baddirections
17:56:59 <ChrisL> Chris: Is there a meeting registration form?
17:57:36 <ChrisL> (no)
17:57:37 <ChrisL> 26.	Turn left at Kalakaua Ave		
17:57:37 <ChrisL> 1.9 mi
17:57:37 <ChrisL> 27.	Kayak across the Pacific Ocean
17:57:37 <ChrisL> Entering Japan
17:57:37 <ChrisL> 		
17:57:39 <ChrisL> 3,879 mi
17:57:40 <ChrisL> 28.	Continue straight
17:57:59 <ChrisL> Topic: June f2f location and date
17:58:28 <ChrisL> Chris: Two different dates were being discussed. Which is the favoured one?
17:58:40 <ChrisL> Daniel: June 3-5 or 24-26
17:58:49 <ChrisL> Steve: June 3-5 not good for me
17:59:06 <jdaggett> jdaggett: either is fine
17:59:14 <ChrisL> Hakn: Can't do second date
18:00:08 <ChrisL> Hotels easier for the earlier dates, due to summer breaks
18:00:26 <ChrisL> s/Hakn/Hakon/
18:00:43 <ChrisL> Daniel; Travel may be cheaper for earlier date too
18:01:03 <ChrisL> Elika: Earlier date easier for me
18:01:26 <ChrisL> Daniel: OK so we will go with 3-5 June. Sorry, Steve
18:01:44 <ChrisL> Resolved: meeting is 3-5 June at Sophia hosted by ERCIM
18:01:49 <ChrisL> adjourned
18:01:50 <Bert> (Summer holidays in France start July 2. Pentecost is Jun 1.)
18:01:50 <Zakim> -[Mozilla]
18:01:51 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
18:01:53 <Zakim> -SteveZ
18:01:55 <Zakim> -jdaggett
18:01:57 <Zakim> -arronei
18:02:01 <Zakim> -??P33
18:02:04 <Zakim> -plinss
18:02:05 <Zakim> -emilyw
18:02:08 <Zakim> - +1.253.250.aabb
18:02:11 <Zakim> -glazou
18:02:12 <ChrisL> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:02:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/21-css-minutes.html ChrisL
18:02:15 <Zakim> -ChrisL
18:02:17 <Zakim> - +47.21.64.aacc
18:02:21 <Zakim> -Bert
18:02:23 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
18:02:25 <Zakim> Attendees were jdaggett, arronei, glazou, plinss, emilyw, +1.253.250.aabb, +47.21.64.aacc, ChrisL, Bert, SteveZ, David_Baron, sylvaing, alexmog
18:03:38 <ChrisL> Meeting: CSS WG telcon
18:03:44 <ChrisL> Chair: Daniel
18:03:50 <ChrisL> Zakim, list attendees
18:03:50 <Zakim> sorry, ChrisL, I don't know what conference this is
18:03:57 <ChrisL> zakim, you suck
18:03:57 <Zakim> I don't understand 'you suck', ChrisL
18:04:06 <dbaron> Zakim, who was here?
18:04:06 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, dbaron.
18:04:15 <ChrisL> Present:  jdaggett, arronei, glazou, plinss, emilyw, +1.253.250.aabb, +47.21.64.aacc, ChrisL, Bert, SteveZ, David_Baron, sylvaing, alexmog
18:04:27 <plinss> +47 was howcome
18:04:34 <glazou> ChrisL: :I started keeping track of attendees
18:04:39 <fantasai> the other one was then probably me
18:04:46 <ChrisL> Present:  jdaggett, arronei, glazou, plinss, emilyw, +1.253.250.aabb, Hakon, ChrisL, Bert, SteveZ, David_Baron, sylvaing, alexmog
18:04:59 <ChrisL> Present:  jdaggett, arronei, glazou, plinss, emilyw, Elika, Hakon, ChrisL, Bert, SteveZ, David_Baron, sylvaing, alexmog
18:05:06 <ChrisL> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:05:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/21-css-minutes.html ChrisL
18:05:15 <fantasai> RRSAgent: make logs public
18:14:26 <dbaron> arronei, ./Chapter_11/overflow.xhtl-body-001.htm seems like it was intended to have some other filename
18:14:29 <dbaron> arronei, it's the only *.htm test
18:14:38 <dbaron> arronei, and the .xhtl seems suspicious :-)
18:19:11 <glazou> 3 letters extensions must be a proof of existence of the devil
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20:11:44 <Zakim> Zakim has left #css
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