14:21:45 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ws-ra
14:21:45 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/01/15-ws-ra-irc
15:53:40 <dug> dug has joined #ws-ra
16:31:31 <Zakim> Zakim has left #ws-ra
16:52:36 <dug> Zakim is so polite  :-)
17:09:28 <Ashok> Ashok has joined #ws-ra
18:30:35 <dug> dug has joined #ws-ra
20:45:10 <gregcarp> gregcarp has joined #ws-ra
21:02:33 <Li> Li has joined #ws-ra
21:06:28 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #ws-ra
21:07:07 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
21:07:23 <Bob> Bob has joined #ws-ra
21:08:12 <Bob> zakim, this is WS_WSRA
21:08:12 <Zakim> Bob, this was already WS_WSRA()11:00AM
21:08:13 <Zakim> ok, Bob; that matches WS_WSRA()11:00AM
21:09:29 <gregcarp> zakim, [Microsoft] is gregcarp
21:09:29 <Zakim> +gregcarp; got it
21:09:45 <gpilz> gpilz has joined #ws-ra
21:10:07 <gpilz> who
21:10:16 <gpilz> zakim who is here
21:10:20 <Geoff> Geoff has joined #ws-ra
21:10:32 <gpilz> Zakim help
21:10:34 <Prasad> Prasad has joined #ws-ra
21:10:47 <gregcarp> zakim, help
21:10:47 <Zakim> Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot for more detailed help.
21:10:49 <Zakim> Some of the commands I know are:
21:10:50 <Zakim>  xxx is yyy       - establish yyy as the name of unknown party xxx
21:10:52 <Zakim>                     if yyy is 'me' or 'I', your nick is substituted
21:10:53 <asir> asir has joined #ws-ra
21:10:54 <Zakim>  xxx may be yyy   - establish yyy as possibly the name of unknown party xxx
21:10:57 <Zakim>  I am xxx         - establish your nick as the name of unknown party xxx
21:10:59 <Zakim>  xxx holds yyy [, zzz ...] - establish xxx as a group name and yyy, etc. as participants within that group
21:11:01 <Zakim>  xxx also holds yyy - add yyy to the list of participants in group xxx
21:11:04 <Zakim>  who's here?      - lists the participants on the phone
21:11:06 <Zakim>  who's muted?     - lists the participants who are muted
21:11:08 <Zakim>  mute xxx         - mutes party xxx (like pressing 61#)
21:11:11 <Zakim>  unmute xxx       - reverses the effect of "mute" and of 61#
21:11:13 <Zakim>  is xxx here?     - reports whether a party named like xxx is present
21:11:15 <Zakim>  list conferences - reports the active conferences
21:11:16 <Zakim>  this is xxx      - associates this channel with conference xxx
21:11:17 <Zakim>  excuse us        - disconnects from the irc channel
21:11:18 <Zakim> I last learned something new on $Date: 2009/01/15 23:59:28 $
21:11:31 <wu> wu has joined #ws-ra
21:11:43 <gpilz> zakim: who's here?
21:12:10 <Bob> scribenick: wu
21:12:28 <Bob> scribe: Wu Chou
21:12:29 <gpilz> zakim, who's here?
21:12:29 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.908.696.aaaa, ??P5, gregcarp
21:12:30 <Zakim> On IRC I see wu, asir, Prasad, Geoff, gpilz, Bob, Zakim, Li, gregcarp, dug, RRSAgent, Yves
21:12:51 <wu> bob: ready to go
21:13:34 <Li> li is on the phone
21:13:38 <wu> bob: accepting new issues and go through submitted WS-E issues
21:14:26 <wu> li: issue opened in response 6397
21:14:49 <Zakim> -gregcarp
21:15:00 <wu> li: three issues may be caused by it
21:15:05 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
21:15:37 <Yves> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6397
21:16:02 <asir> zakim, who is talking?
21:16:06 <wu> li: propose to move subcription manager to from field of the SOAP header to reserve these identifier
21:16:13 <Zakim> asir, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +1.908.696.aaaa (60%), ??P5 (39%)
21:16:45 <dug> +q
21:17:05 <wu> geoff: perhaps there are use cases might be useful
21:17:14 <Bob> ack dug
21:17:42 <gpilz> +q
21:18:01 <wu> dug: how use of subscription manager in subend
21:18:50 <wu> li: used by subscriper
21:18:52 <Bob> ack gp
21:19:45 <wu> gpilz: question assumtion of subscriber
21:20:12 <Geoff> q+
21:20:19 <Bob> rrsagent, make logs public
21:20:24 <wu> q+
21:20:47 <Bob> ack eo
21:20:54 <Bob> ack geo
21:21:07 <dug> +q
21:21:10 <gpilz> +q
21:21:53 <wu> Geoff: its a use case and people may be
21:22:10 <Bob> ack wuack wu
21:22:14 <Bob> ack wu
21:24:21 <Prasad> Prasad has joined #ws-ra
21:24:26 <Bob> ack dug
21:26:23 <Bob> ack gpil
21:27:45 <Geoff> q+
21:29:40 <wu> gpilz: epr comparison is hard to compare
21:29:45 <Bob> ack geo
21:29:56 <Li> q+
21:30:10 <dug> +q
21:30:32 <wu> Geoff: existing implementation may use this feature, do we want to be backward competible
21:30:41 <Bob> ack li
21:31:51 <wu> li: even we treat epr a block, it is in the from field and will be echoed back by WS-A
21:31:54 <gpilz> +q
21:31:59 <Bob> ack dug
21:33:41 <Bob> ack gpi
21:33:45 <wu> dug: the reason for correlation. epr comarison we should not avoid
21:34:41 <dug> +q
21:35:01 <asir> q+
21:35:46 <wu> gpilz: bk competibility, we change namespace may break bk competibility, we can use epr we can compare
21:35:48 <Bob> ack dug
21:36:20 <wu> dug: featurewise we may not lose much
21:36:25 <Bob> ack asir
21:36:28 <dug> s/much/anything/  :-)
21:38:00 <wu> bob: gil opposes accepting this as a new issue
21:39:17 <wu> wu: we should exmine this, espcially there are exsting implementation
21:39:49 <wu> bob: we do not accept this issue at this time and wu/gil will discuss this issue
21:41:23 <wu> bob: we will set this issue to no action at this moment
21:42:02 <Bob> rrsagent, pointer
21:42:02 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2009/01/15-ws-ra-irc#T21-42-02
21:44:59 <Bob> The only opposition to not accepting this new issue was Wu of those present
21:45:26 <Bob> a/Wu/Avaya
21:45:55 <wu> bob: issue 6424
21:47:18 <wu> asir: push also through mailing list
21:47:55 <wu> bob: to make our discussion on the pub mailing list in addition to bugzilla
21:49:10 <gpilz> +q
21:49:22 <wu> li: an example is attached and listed examples of infoset model
21:49:28 <Bob> ack gpil
21:50:28 <wu> gpilz: should accept this issue, understand benefits
21:50:57 <Prasad> =1
21:51:12 <Prasad> S/=/+/
21:51:14 <wu> gpilz: show some benefits of abstract properties
21:51:54 <wu> li: original benefits are listed in wu's presentation
21:52:06 <dug> +q
21:52:34 <wu> yves: xsi is a xml format 
21:52:58 <wu> yves: which is beyond soap
21:53:01 <Bob> ack dug
21:53:02 <Yves> s/xsi/exi/
21:53:14 <Yves> http://www.w3.org/XML/EXI/
21:53:19 <wu> bob: there are other cases and a reason for WS-A
21:53:47 <wu> dug: if valuabe, should apply to others
21:54:23 <wu> Yves: there are many standards use Infoset
21:55:02 <gpilz> +q
21:55:04 <Yves> like SOAP1.2 WSDL2, Addressing etc... It also allows the use of MTOM, for example, or other optimization that may be needed
21:55:10 <wu> li: Infoset in eventing clear advantages may apply to others
21:55:46 <wu> bob: implication of adopting Infoset
21:56:44 <wu> Yves: just define Infoset and apply it to various cases
21:56:56 <dug> +q
21:57:12 <Bob> ack gpi
21:57:54 <asir> q+
21:58:09 <Bob> ack dug
21:58:32 <wu> wu: it will be one standard, but make it more readability
21:59:27 <wu> Yves: it should not affact readability
22:00:26 <Bob> ack asir
22:00:50 <asir> not a general statement, but for WS-A I like the infoset speak
22:01:13 <wu> asir: maybe wu can try write it for one section
22:01:38 <Prasad> The spec is readable as is. Adding infoset notation to make it more readable is a lot more work (for editors to create) and whole WG to review and make sure it is correct etc. is unnecessary work IMHO. Like Dug and others, I find Infoset notation more confusing than helpful
22:01:51 <wu> bob: likely to support to take a prototype chapter?
22:02:19 <dug> Prasad - any reason you didn't get on the Q to say that?
22:02:24 <wu> bob: Li are you willing to take one chapter?
22:02:35 <wu> li: a section?
22:03:21 <Prasad> Dug, I can jump the q and say it exactly the way want it (in the minutes)
22:03:24 <wu> Geoff: yes, say for example a section - subscribe
22:03:39 <Bob> action: Li Produce a exemplar of the proposal for an operation such as subscribe
22:03:51 <Prasad> s/minutes/minutes:/
22:06:14 <wu> gpilz: could be important for WS-E since data can be large
22:07:05 <wu> bob: 6025, li go ahead
22:07:13 <Bob> Topic: Issue 6425
22:07:29 <wu> li: the proposal using EPR to address event source
22:07:43 <gpilz> +q
22:08:39 <wu> li: two examples included in the proposal, including an example in csta for dynamic event source
22:08:54 <wu> bob: where part in WS-E spec will be affacted
22:09:06 <wu> li: in subscribe section
22:09:10 <Bob> q?
22:09:18 <dug> +q
22:09:19 <Bob> ack gpil
22:10:14 <wu> gil: how well can you do it and not sure how to address someting
22:10:15 <dug> -q
22:10:37 <wu> dug: not sure what spec is missing
22:11:14 <wu> bob: they ask for the pointer which part of WS-E will be affacted
22:11:55 <wu> li: if we want to subscript to one of 10 port, subscribe to one of them
22:14:12 <wu> li: if only with top level address to send message to, not clear how to address lower or dynamic resources
22:14:47 <wu> Geoff: full example to compare before and after may help
22:15:56 <gpilz> +q
22:16:14 <wu> li: port type is from Annex of WS-E, annotate portType as event source, how to subscribe to this type ...
22:17:23 <wu> gil: port has address, support single binding
22:17:46 <wu> asir: can support multiple ports in wsdl
22:18:15 <wu> bob: maybe follow Geoff suggestion as next step
22:18:19 <wu> li: OK
22:18:36 <Bob> action: Li to produce a before/after text demonstrating the change desired for 6425
22:20:28 <wu> bob: 6426, li you have the floor
22:20:41 <gpilz> +q
22:21:38 <wu> li: WS-E delivery is a single element. It is in wrong place to move to WS-E delivery
22:22:25 <wu> li: schema does not reflect this element properly
22:22:39 <Bob> q?
22:22:45 <wu> li: proposal is to address this
22:22:48 <Bob> ack gpil
22:23:18 <wu> gil: i agree, thanks to bring this issue
22:23:38 <wu> gil: the mode is left open ended
22:24:31 <wu> gil: however, example schema has an error
22:25:12 <Bob> q?
22:26:10 <wu> gil: delivery type should have some form of any for extension
22:26:13 <wu> li: good
22:26:56 <wu> asir: proposal seems concrete
22:28:44 <wu> bob: to make the amandament to the proposal, send it to public mailing list
22:29:11 <wu> Geoff: put section number in to help understanding it
22:29:18 <Bob> action: Li to update proposal for 6426 to the public list
22:30:10 <wu> break and back after 15min
22:30:11 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
22:39:19 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
22:40:04 <gregcarp> zakim, [Microsoft] is gregcarp
22:40:04 <Zakim> +gregcarp; got it
22:44:23 <wu> bak in action now
22:45:20 <Bob> q?
22:47:04 <wu> bob: 6401
22:48:22 <gpilz> +q
22:48:27 <wu> dug: Don't have ocncrete proposal. one thought is using WS-policy
22:49:33 <wu> gil: putting policy in side wsdl is not very natural
22:49:59 <gpilz> actually describing operations inside policy isn't very natural
22:50:15 <gpilz> queue
22:50:20 <gpilz> ?q
22:50:24 <Bob> ack gpiq?
22:50:34 <gpilz> q?
22:51:02 <wu> dug: different portType ... looking for suggestions
22:52:30 <wu> Geoff: two points to consider, run time, compile (develop) time. we should lose track of both of those
22:52:36 <Bob> ack gpi
22:53:41 <Bob> q+
22:53:48 <wu> gil: agree to two aspects, inventing new describe language may not be good
22:54:24 <wu> gil: maybe raise an issue to WS-I and it does not apply here
22:55:07 <Prasad> q+
22:55:12 <Bob> ack bob
22:55:22 <dug> +q
22:55:23 <wu> gil: tell WS-I R2303 not apply here
22:55:46 <Bob> ack Prasad
22:56:18 <dug> -q
22:56:54 <wu> prasad: the reason of WS-I  is binding, outside WS-E may still a problem
22:57:36 <wu> prasad: I have no issue since I argued to keep notification
22:59:22 <wu> bob: is binding is properly specified in ws-e
23:00:02 <wu> dug: changing BP to do this, may not be a reasonable thing to do
23:01:22 <wu> bob: write a W3 Note, not W3C recommendation but referrencable
23:01:36 <dug> actually, it may or may not be reasonable - we just need to check because changing BP will have impact on people
23:01:47 <wu> bob: this is about outbound operation binding
23:01:58 <Bob> q?
23:03:47 <wu> wu: Binding must be in the context of subscribe/notify web service interaction, which is stateful.
23:04:53 <wu> bob: Gil to carry to BP group to extend R2303 allow binding through sub/notify
23:05:04 <wu> q+
23:05:29 <wu> bob: how to close this as no action?
23:05:44 <wu> dug: this may be an issue
23:06:13 <wu> bob: restiction is raised because of binding. ws-e provided this binding
23:07:47 <wu> gil: may be try WS-I to see how WS-I react
23:08:13 <Bob> ack wu
23:11:46 <wu> wu: tool should not be a reason to limit standard
23:11:53 <wu> q+
23:12:29 <wu> bob: we have charter to work with BP
23:12:43 <Bob> ack wu
23:12:56 <dug> +q
23:13:20 <gpilz> +q
23:13:39 <Bob> ack dug
23:14:04 <wu> dug: BP important to us, most our tools using it
23:15:53 <Bob> s/work/be aligned with
23:17:38 <Bob> ack gpil
23:17:41 <wu> dug: BP not fair not awaring this. there is other way. I am not suggesting that
23:19:50 <gregcarp> q+
23:19:57 <Li> q+
23:20:07 <wu> gil: BP complaint mode vs. ws-transfer complaint can be hard
23:20:47 <Li> -q
23:22:24 <wu> bob: if BP 1.2 or BP2.0 can make the situation different
23:22:32 <gregcarp> fine
23:24:37 <Bob> action: Gil to carry BP output-only operation prohibition to WS-I
23:24:45 <Bob> ack greg
23:24:54 <wu> gregcarp: odd to prohibate valuable apps due to profile. prohibate forever due to not in the profile is not perceivable
23:26:28 <wu> bob: Gil has action to take up this with WS-I
23:28:12 <Yves> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-resource-access/2009Jan/0040.html
23:30:16 <wu> bob: 6405
23:31:25 <wu> dug: this is an updated proposal from yesterday discussion
23:32:11 <Geoff> q+
23:34:24 <Bob> ack Geoff
23:34:56 <wu> Geoff: thank for improvement, but not like overloading term format
23:38:01 <wu> bob: change 6405 to resolved status
23:38:48 <wu> bob: 6427. go ahead
23:40:02 <wu> li: proposal is to copy the default value to schema for benefit of apps and tools
23:40:29 <wu> dug: can we do more for other standards?
23:41:10 <wu> dug: this is all or just an example
23:41:23 <wu> li: only an example and there are more in ws-e
23:41:36 <gpilz> gpilz has joined #ws-ra
23:41:50 <gpilz> test
23:43:36 <wu> asir: send a list to the group to look at it, than change it
23:44:29 <wu> bob: wu list all such changes in ws-e, share with group, then move on
23:45:13 <wu> bob: 6428, li
23:45:55 <wu> li: 6428 about mode attribute in ws-e, which is used for separate things
23:46:12 <Bob> q?
23:46:23 <Bob> ack no one
23:47:08 <wu> li: it should be open/extensible, suggest to add new attribute "Format"
23:47:09 <gregcarp> q+
23:47:34 <wu> dug: you may need more information than URI than Format, which can be something to consider
23:47:46 <Bob> ack greg
23:49:42 <Bob> q?
23:50:13 <wu> dug: you may need more than URI to address it
23:51:34 <wu> gregcarp: is it cleaner way or you can do something additional
23:51:37 <dug> a new element, sibling to Delivery/Mode, might be cleaner
23:52:09 <wu> li: it would odd to do two things on one URI
23:53:35 <wu> Geoff: maybe consider dug suggestin, adding more than URI
23:54:12 <wu> Geoff: I would like to think if there is additional extensibility
23:55:01 <wu> bob: 6429 now
23:55:59 <wu> li: this is related to delivery mode. propose to define standard wrap interface 
23:57:27 <wu> gil: recommand this a separate WSDL
23:57:39 <wu> li: exactly, this is the WSDL for the event sink