17:52:49 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ua
17:52:49 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/01/15-ua-irc
17:52:51 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
17:52:51 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #ua
17:52:51 <AllanJ> AllanJ has joined #ua
17:52:53 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
17:52:53 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
17:52:54 <trackbot> Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
17:52:54 <trackbot> Date: 15 January 2009
17:53:09 <sharper> chair: Allan_James, Brewer_Judy
17:53:32 <jeanne> jeanne has joined #ua
17:53:43 <sharper> zakim, code
17:53:43 <Zakim> I don't understand 'code', sharper
17:54:29 <jeanne> zakim, code?
17:54:29 <Zakim> the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jeanne
17:54:46 <sharper> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JanMar/0005.html
17:54:54 <sharper> scribe: Harper_Simon
17:55:01 <sharper> ScribeNick: sharper
17:55:18 <sharper> present+ Spellman_Jeanne
17:55:33 <sharper> Agenda+ Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?
17:55:40 <sharper> Agenda+ Formalizing our editorial standards (using action verbs, if clauses, etc. )
17:55:48 <sharper> Agenda+ Should Assistive Technology be included in User Agent? See David's email: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JanMar/0003.html 
17:55:58 <sharper> Agenda+ Continue review of Guideline 3.5 through 3.13 
17:56:41 <sharper> zakim, item 1
17:56:41 <Zakim> I don't understand 'item 1', sharper
17:56:58 <sharper> zakim, next item 1
17:56:58 <Zakim> I don't understand 'next item 1', sharper
17:57:35 <jeanne> zakim, take up item 1
17:57:35 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?" taken up [from sharper]
17:57:48 <sharper> present+ Allan_Jim
17:57:57 <Zakim> WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
17:58:04 <Zakim> +jeanne
17:59:31 <Zakim> +??P1
17:59:34 <Zakim> -jeanne
17:59:35 <Zakim> +jeanne
18:00:05 <sharper> zakim, ??P1 is sharper
18:00:05 <Zakim> +sharper; got it
18:01:14 <mth> mth has joined #ua
18:02:00 <mth> will join on by phone in approx 5 minutes
18:02:35 <Zakim> +jallan
18:03:05 <sharper> present+ Hakkinen_Mark
18:03:28 <sharper> regrets+ Brewer_Judy
18:03:43 <sharper> regrets+ Ford_Kelly
18:04:10 <sharper> regrets+ Richards_Jan
18:04:45 <sharper> regrets+ Poehlman_David
18:05:03 <sharper> Current editors draft:
18:05:03 <sharper> http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2009/UAAG20-20090113-ED/
18:05:30 <sharper> Open Action Items: http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/open
18:05:56 <sharper> zakim, close item 1
18:05:56 <Zakim> agendum 1, Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?, closed
18:05:56 <sharper> zakim, next item
18:05:57 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:05:58 <Zakim> 2. Formalizing our editorial standards (using action verbs, if clauses, etc. ) [from sharper]
18:06:00 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Formalizing our editorial standards (using action verbs, if clauses, etc. )" taken up [from sharper]
18:06:16 <sharper> Regrets+ Cantor_Alan
18:10:19 <Zakim> +Mark_Hakkinen
18:18:14 <sharper> JA: Drifting on Language - identified at original meeting with JS.
18:18:47 <sharper> JA: Now seem to be re-drifting - wondering if we have a set of phrases... etc
18:19:30 <sharper> JS: Start with Action Verb - if there is an if clause - put that before Action verb - no decision on 'handles' / sort titles.
18:19:45 <sharper> MH: Nothing concrete on this.
18:20:50 <sharper> JA: Let's use JS's suggestion...'Start with Action Verb - if there is an if clause - put that before Action verb'
18:22:11 <sharper> RESOLVED: Start with Action Verb - if there is an IF-Clause - put that before the Action Verb
18:23:16 <sharper> JA - MH: Need stock phrases - see example of 'provide a global option' against 'user has the option' 
18:23:25 <sharper> JA: Nail these down as we proceed.
18:23:37 <sharper> zakim, close item2zakim, next item
18:23:37 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close item2zakim, next item', sharper
18:23:49 <sharper> zakim, close item 2
18:23:49 <Zakim> agendum 2, Formalizing our editorial standards (using action verbs, if clauses, etc. ), closed
18:23:51 <sharper> zakim, next item
18:23:52 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:23:55 <Zakim> 3. Should Assistive Technology be included in User Agent? See David's email: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JanMar/0003.html [from sharper]
18:23:59 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Should Assistive Technology be included in User Agent? See David's email: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JanMar/0003.html" taken up [from sharper]
18:25:33 <sharper> When composing a definition for something which you are gathering spec, it is necessary that the deffinition fit the spec.  For instance, if you are going to call AT a user agent, the AT must meet the spec or the spec must be written such that it takes the AT unto account.  I would think that this would be problematic in instances say where you try to use firefox with the mac os and while the AT for the Mac with Safari might meet the spec, It would not meet the
18:31:38 <AllanJ> user agent definition: A user agent is any software that retrieves and presents Web content for end users. Examples include Web browsers, media players, plug-ins, and other programs including assistive technologies, that help in retrieving, rendering and interacting with Web content. 
18:33:41 <sharper> JA: Could we remove AT from the definition? 
18:33:49 <sharper> JA: Does it hurt?
18:36:41 <AllanJ> SH: the first line is clear. the second line seems to contradict. AT does not do that.
18:39:12 <AllanJ> A user agent is any software that retrieves and presents Web content for end users. Examples include Web browsers, media players, plug-ins, and other programs that facilitate the retrieving, rendering and interacting with Web content.
18:39:42 <AllanJ> JS: remove the second sentence
18:42:04 <AllanJ> A user agent is any software that retrieves, renders and facilitates interaction with Web content for end users. Examples include Web browsers, media players, plug-ins, extensions, and 
18:42:06 <AllanJ> web applications.
18:44:20 <jeanne> action: Jeanne to put the new phrasing of User Agent into next week's survey. 
18:44:20 <trackbot> Created ACTION-112 - Put the new phrasing of User Agent into next week's survey.  [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-01-22].
18:45:06 <sharper> All: Do we have definitions from other WGroups? Not HTML 5
18:45:26 <mth> http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/conform.html#didx-user_agent
18:46:16 <AllanJ> ATAG and WCAG reference the original UAAG def ... A user agent is any software that retrieves and presents Web content for end users. Examples include Web browsers, media players, plug-ins, and other programs including assistive technologies, that help in retrieving, rendering and interacting with Web content. 
18:50:55 <jeanne2> jeanne2 has joined #ua
18:50:58 <sharper> JA: To ask DP for clarification
18:51:32 <sharper> JA: Place on Survey and Use in Editors Draft - to see responses.
18:51:33 <sharper> zakim, close item 3
18:51:33 <Zakim> agendum 3, Should Assistive Technology be included in User Agent? See David's email: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JanMar/0003.html, closed
18:51:34 <sharper> zakim, next item
18:51:37 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
18:51:38 <Zakim> 4. Continue review of Guideline 3.5 through 3.13 [from sharper]
18:51:40 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Continue review of Guideline 3.5 through 3.13" taken up [from sharper]
18:52:04 <AllanJ> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JanMar/0006.html
18:58:41 <sharper> JA JS: Discussion regarding suitable location re operable and perceivable.
19:01:36 <sharper> JA: 3.3.D Text Scaling / 3.3.C Visual Media Scaling / 3.3.E Visual Media Brightness/Contrast are all perceivable.
19:02:02 <jeanne2> action: jeanne to Fix the numbering in Section 4.9 and add an editor's note saying that it came from section 3.3. Put a note in 3.3 saying it was moved to 4.9. 
19:02:04 <sharper> JA: WCAG Define both Operable and Perceivable 
19:02:05 <trackbot> Created ACTION-113 - Fix the numbering in Section 4.9 and add an editor's note saying that it came from section 3.3. Put a note in 3.3 saying it was moved to 4.9.  [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-01-22].
19:03:22 <Zakim> -sharper
19:03:45 <jeanne2> scribe: jeanne
19:03:49 <AllanJ> 3.3.7 should be in perceivable
19:04:01 <Zakim> +??P1
19:04:02 <jeanne2> slow is operable. 
19:04:24 <sharper> zakim, ??P1 is sharper
19:04:24 <Zakim> +sharper; got it
19:04:49 <jeanne2> if it requires a mechanism, then it should be under operable.
19:04:58 <jeanne2> scribe:sharper
19:05:27 <sharper> JA: 3.3.6 Unavailable Content: Perceivable
19:05:32 <sharper> MH: Agrees
19:06:09 <sharper> RESOLVED: 3.3.6 - moves to Perceivable
19:06:28 <sharper> RESOLVED: 3.3.7 - moves to Perceivable
19:07:42 <jeanne2> action: jeanne to move 3.3.6, 3.3.7 back to Guideline 3.3
19:07:42 <trackbot> Created ACTION-114 - Move 3.3.6, 3.3.7 back to Guideline 3.3 [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-01-22].
19:07:53 <sharper> JA: 3.3.5 Execution Placeholder: Operable? 
19:10:21 <AllanJ> JS: in the introduction, we say we want user to have control. so we need to take 'user has the option' out of the equation
19:10:39 <sharper> JS: Operate 
19:10:43 <sharper> JA agrees
19:10:52 <AllanJ> ...then decide if the result is operable or perceivable
19:10:53 <sharper> SH: Agrees
19:11:10 <sharper> RESOLVED: 3.3.5 - stays as operable
19:14:14 <sharper> JA: 3.3.4 based on examples seems to be operable
19:14:53 <sharper> JA: Do we know if content will render? So operation seems key.
19:15:25 <sharper> RESOLVED: 3.3.4 - stays as operable
19:17:07 <jeanne2> action: JA to review 3.3.4 in guideline 4.9 to see whether it is feasible for the UA to control the rendering. 
19:17:07 <trackbot> Created ACTION-115 - Review 3.3.4 in guideline 4.9 to see whether it is feasible for the UA to control the rendering.  [on Jim Allan - due 2009-01-22].
19:18:18 <sharper> JA: 3.3.3 Time-Based Media Load-Only. 
19:18:27 <sharper> JS: Operable Clearly
19:18:29 <AllanJ> +1
19:18:33 <sharper> MH: Agrees
19:18:37 <sharper> +1
19:19:00 <sharper> RESOLVED: 3.3.3 - stays as operable
19:19:47 <sharper> JA: seems like a user override of the authors intention - maybe we need something saying 'user has the option to override...'
19:20:08 <sharper> JS: Scattered over the doc - maybe need a user understanding document?
19:21:50 <sharper> JA: MH has an action on this
19:22:08 <sharper> MH: 3.3.8 Slow Multimedia is close to this
19:22:31 <jeanne2> I think the individual global preferences are better kept in the context (e.g. keyboard) for better understanding.  It may be useful to have a list of all the global options in one location, but not in the Guidelines. 
19:23:59 <sharper> JA: 3.3.1 Background Image Toggle: Thoughts
19:24:07 <sharper> SH: Operable
19:24:16 <sharper> JA: Agrees
19:24:36 <jeanne2> JS: Operable
19:24:36 <sharper> JS: Agrees
19:24:44 <sharper> MH: Agrees
19:24:58 <sharper> RESOLVED: 3.3.1 - stays as operable
19:25:25 <sharper> JA: 3.3.F Paused Time-Based Media - how different from 3.3.9
19:26:54 <sharper> MH: being able to explore the media on the screen (once paused) will enable rich content interaction
19:27:37 <sharper> JA: Need a list separate and apart from while it's streaming by.
19:27:50 <sharper> MH: All there in the DOM.
19:28:20 <sharper> JA: Is this teased out in the document - maybe hinders accessibility with all the voicing of the descriptions going by
19:30:41 <sharper> MH: Maybe the timeline needs elaboration? For instance with the DAISY  plug in to Firevox you can navigate via the timeline of the voicing or the structure of the document. 
19:34:24 <sharper> JA: Do we need to come up with a whole new set of guidelines for this navigation? 
19:34:47 <sharper> See 4.7.1 Structured Navigation
19:36:29 <Zakim> -Mark_Hakkinen
19:36:36 <Zakim> -jeanne
19:36:39 <Zakim> -sharper
19:36:43 <sharper> RESOLVED:  3.3.1 Unresolved
19:37:02 <sharper> rrsagent, draft minutes
19:37:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/15-ua-minutes.html sharper
19:37:42 <sharper> present+ Harper_Simon
19:37:48 <sharper> rrsagent, draft minutes
19:37:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/15-ua-minutes.html sharper
19:38:31 <sharper> zakim, please part
19:38:31 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were jeanne, sharper, jallan, Mark_Hakkinen
19:38:31 <Zakim> Zakim has left #ua
19:38:48 <sharper> RRSAgent, draft minutes
19:38:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/15-ua-minutes.html sharper
19:39:42 <sharper> rrsagent, please part
19:39:42 <RRSAgent> I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/15-ua-actions.rdf :
19:39:42 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Jeanne to put the new phrasing of User Agent into next week's survey.  [1]
19:39:42 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/15-ua-irc#T18-44-20
19:39:42 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jeanne to Fix the numbering in Section 4.9 and add an editor's note saying that it came from section 3.3. Put a note in 3.3 saying it was moved to 4.9.  [2]
19:39:42 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/15-ua-irc#T19-02-02
19:39:42 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jeanne to move 3.3.6, 3.3.7 back to Guideline 3.3 [3]
19:39:42 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/15-ua-irc#T19-07-42
19:39:42 <RRSAgent> ACTION: JA to review 3.3.4 in guideline 4.9 to see whether it is feasible for the UA to control the rendering.  [4]
19:39:42 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/15-ua-irc#T19-17-07