19:30:36 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg
19:30:36 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/01/15-svg-irc
19:30:38 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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19:30:40 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
19:30:40 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG()2:30PM scheduled to start now
19:30:41 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
19:30:41 <trackbot> Date: 15 January 2009
19:31:08 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()2:30PM has now started
19:31:08 <Zakim> +Shepazu
19:31:10 <Zakim> +??P4
19:31:11 <Zakim> +??P2
19:31:18 <ed> Zakim, ??P4 is me
19:31:18 <Zakim> +ed; got it
19:31:49 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #svg
19:32:04 <Zakim> +??P5
19:32:07 <heycam> Zakim, ??P5 is me
19:32:07 <Zakim> +heycam; got it
19:32:08 <ed> Zakim, ??P2 is jwatt
19:32:08 <Zakim> +jwatt; got it
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19:34:01 <Zakim> +??P6
19:34:11 <anthony> Zakim, ??P6 is me
19:34:11 <Zakim> +anthony; got it
19:35:12 <anthony> Scribe: anthony
19:35:17 <anthony> Chair: Erik
19:35:21 <ed> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/0037.html
19:35:52 <anthony> Topic: Sydney F2F update
19:36:16 <ed> AG: f2f wikipage updated
19:36:17 <Zakim> +ChrisL
19:36:21 <anthony> AG: I've updated the wiki page with location and where it will be hosted
19:36:34 <shepazu> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SydneyF2F2009#Sydney_SVG_F2F_Meeting.2C_Feb_16-20_2009
19:36:46 <anthony> AG: I sent an email to the list
19:39:15 <ed> CL: will there be a phonebridge?
19:39:26 <ed> AG: will try to get that sorted out with the hotel
19:41:25 <anthony> Topic: ISSUE-2201
19:41:32 <anthony> ISSUE-2201?
19:41:32 <trackbot> ISSUE-2201 -- Return value of SVGAnimationElement.getStartTime unclear -- OPEN
19:41:32 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2201
19:41:46 <anthony> ED: We got an email to the public list
19:41:53 <anthony> ... this is from the Mozilla team
19:42:15 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Jan/0023.html
19:42:47 <anthony> CL: It should throw an exception if it hasn't got a value
19:42:57 <anthony> ... what happens if you have multiple start times
19:43:18 <anthony> ... It needs to return a list doesn't it?
19:43:24 <ChrisL> should it return a list?
19:43:37 <anthony> DS: In that case we shouldn't change it in SVG 1.1 and change it in Core
19:43:43 <anthony> ... just a thought
19:44:03 <anthony> CMC: I don't know if it's best to change it to a list a this point
19:44:11 <anthony> DS: We could add a new method
19:44:25 <anthony> ED: I'd probably say we return the current start time of the first interval
19:44:29 <anthony> DS: That's good
19:44:40 <anthony> ED: Sort of makes it more useful
19:44:49 <anthony> ... that's the first interval you'd expect
19:44:52 <ed> s/first interval/current interval/
19:45:02 <anthony> CMC: Opera seems to return a couple of values
19:45:36 <anthony> ... Brian seems to think that it's not as useful to return the previous interval
19:45:56 <anthony> ... It should return the start time of current or start time of next if that's available
19:46:11 <anthony> ED: I can have a look at the Opera code to see what it's doing
19:46:29 <anthony> DS: I like your suggestion Erik
19:46:48 <anthony> ED: Dunno how useful it is to have a set of start times/begin times
19:46:59 <anthony> ... we should probably try to clarify it for SVG 1.1
19:47:12 <anthony> ... we should investigate if that is adequate for future specs
19:47:17 <anthony> ... like return all the times
19:47:30 <anthony> ... the thing is you can't resolve all the times always
19:47:42 <anthony> CL: If you can't resolve the times you could thrown an exception
19:48:10 <anthony> ED: Probably most common when you have event based triggers
19:48:15 <anthony> DS: Could return NAN
19:48:22 <anthony> CMC: That's what we do in Batik
19:49:22 <anthony> DS: Is this defined completely by us or SMIL?
19:49:28 <anthony> CMC: I think it's by us
19:49:35 <anthony> ED: Yes this is by us
19:50:09 <ed> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/animate.html#InterfaceSVGAnimationElement
19:51:03 <anthony> ED: So adding an exception when you can't compute a start time or when there is no start time
19:51:14 <anthony> ... does that seem like a good idea to add to errata?
19:51:31 <anthony> CMC: I feel like returning a value of some sort
19:51:35 <anthony> DS: Like NAN
19:51:49 <anthony> CMC: I doubt there is much code that relies on this
19:51:59 <anthony> ED: Sure, seems fine with me
19:52:24 <anthony> ... Are we fully agreed at what we should put in the errata item?
19:52:49 <anthony> CL: So you propose returning the current interval value?
19:52:51 <anthony> ED: Yes
19:53:01 <anthony> CL: I agree to that
19:54:22 <anthony> CMC: You can have end times as being indefinite, but maybe not begin times
19:54:39 <anthony> ... what about duration?
19:54:57 <anthony> ... do you think leaving duration is ok as it is or should it return a value?
19:55:06 <anthony> ED: I would rather keep it as it is in that case
19:55:28 <anthony> ... it does say that it raises an exception if it is undefined
19:55:35 <anthony> ... I'd rather avoid it if we can
19:56:20 <anthony> ... so that probably argues for having an exception for getStartTime as well then
19:57:33 <anthony> DS: Even if we introduced a new method to return values later we shouldn't worry about that now
19:57:48 <anthony> ... the only thing we need to resolve then is that it returns the current interval at the moment
19:59:13 <ed> "getStartTime: Returns the start time in seconds for this animation." -> "getStartTime: Returns the start time in seconds of the current interval for this animation."
20:00:11 <anthony> RESOLUTION: We will create an errata that introduces an exception when the start time is unresolved but returns the start time in seconds of the current interval for this animation when resolved
20:01:07 <anthony> ACTION: Cameron to Create an errata item for getStartTime that it introduces an exception when the start time is unresolved
20:01:07 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2401 - Create an errata item for getStartTime that it introduces an exception when the start time is unresolved [on Cameron McCormack - due 2009-01-22].
20:02:16 <anthony> Topic: SVG 1.1 errata
20:02:34 <anthony> ACTION-2362?
20:02:34 <trackbot> ACTION-2362 -- Erik Dahlström to backport the zero length path wording from 1.2T to this "Reword F.5 Tangents" erratum -- due 2008-12-04 -- OPEN
20:02:34 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2362
20:02:43 <anthony> ED: That action was on me
20:02:54 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/0038.html
20:03:06 <anthony> ... I did some investigations and had some conclusions that I mailed to the list
20:03:30 <anthony> ... one of which was we haven't addressed zero length path issues that we raised
20:03:52 <anthony> ... the implementation notes say that it's path rendering only
20:04:13 <anthony> ... that it only applies for animation if there is a path to follow
20:04:21 <shepazu> agenda+ Errata on Root Overflow: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008JulSep/0347.html
20:04:30 <anthony> ... and there isn't any wording to back port
20:04:41 <anthony> CMC: You said yesterday that there was an action on Andrew
20:04:54 <anthony> ED: Yes, there was an action but it was never completed
20:04:58 <anthony> ... so we never got that wording
20:05:11 <anthony> ... comparing the wording there were some small changes
20:05:27 <anthony> ... but no substantial differences
20:06:14 <anthony> ... we could add a section that relates to animate motion and text path
20:06:47 <Zakim> -jwatt
20:06:51 <anthony> CMC: So do you think we should take up that old action and make changes to both?
20:07:06 <anthony> ED: It would seem a bit strange to add an errata to 1.1 and not address it in Tiny
20:07:18 <anthony> ... we should reword it slightly?
20:07:26 <anthony> ... it wouldn't be a very large change I guess
20:07:44 <anthony> ... and can perhaps be simplified to use the same code for all the different directionality handling?
20:08:04 <anthony> CMC: Are we sure that the same behaviour is was we want?
20:08:15 <anthony> ED: I think that was part of the action  that Andrew had to change
20:08:26 <Zakim> +??P1
20:08:30 <anthony> CMC: I wonder if there are any tests that address this change?
20:08:38 <anthony> ED: Perhaps
20:08:50 <heycam> Zakim, ??P1 is jwatt
20:08:50 <Zakim> +jwatt; got it
20:09:29 <anthony> CMC: Do you think it needs investigation or just assume it?
20:09:36 <anthony> ED: I think it might be best to test it first
20:09:42 <anthony> ... perhaps for text path
20:10:43 <anthony> ... I could take an action to make some tests for this
20:11:40 <anthony> ... I will close action 2632 given that there is no wording to back port
20:11:58 <anthony> CL: May have already been back ported
20:12:26 <anthony> DS: I do recall Andrew was going to look into a number of things for this action and that a number of resolutions were made
20:12:33 <anthony> ... can't remember what they were though
20:14:13 <anthony> ED: It does say in the spec that you can go forward or backwards in the data until you find directionality
20:14:19 <anthony> DS: It says that in 1.1?
20:14:26 <anthony> ED: I think so, just reading it here
20:14:32 <ed> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/implnote.html#PathElementImplementationNotes
20:14:43 <anthony> ED: Second major bullet point
20:14:50 <anthony> ... the second bullet point under that
20:15:03 <anthony> ... and that bullet point is very similar to 1.2 Tiny
20:15:14 <ed> the bulletpoint that starts with "Certain line-capping and line-joining situations and markers"
20:16:11 <anthony> DS: I think another related issue is arc segments that begin on the end point. Currently we say don't render anything
20:16:46 <anthony> ... smarter way of doing it is either have something arbitary or scan back and forth through the path data
20:17:11 <anthony> ... or scan back through the time
20:17:23 <anthony> ... might be a bit unrealistic
20:18:54 <anthony> ACTION: Erik to Go through the 1.2 Tiny test suite to check if there are any tests for zero length paths that test for directionality and add those to the 1.1 Full test suite
20:18:54 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2402 - Go through the 1.2 Tiny test suite to check if there are any tests for zero length paths that test for directionality and add those to the 1.1 Full test suite [on Erik Dahlström - due 2009-01-22].
20:20:02 <anthony> ACTION-2370?
20:20:03 <trackbot> ACTION-2370 -- Erik Dahlström to go through the e-mailing thread for errata item "Sizing of the outermost svg" and update the item discussion -- due 2008-12-08 -- OPEN
20:20:03 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2370
20:20:28 <ed> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/errata/errata.xml#bzwidth
20:20:42 <anthony> ED: Errata item was empty I think
20:20:50 <anthony> ... I did add a few links to discussions
20:21:15 <anthony> ... I fixed XSL to fix a bug where if no author was listed it would omit the links
20:21:29 <anthony> ... I also added a few discussion links to this errata item
20:21:43 <ed> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/coords.html#IntrinsicSizing
20:21:43 <anthony> ... it seems we have fixed a few of the items that were asked about in 1.1
20:21:58 <anthony> ... one being intrinsic sizing
20:22:00 <ed> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/coords.html#InitialViewport
20:22:09 <anthony> ... and wording on viewPort
20:22:21 <anthony> ... so here is a case where w could back port wording if we wanted to
20:22:34 <anthony> ... we don't have any resolution, I couldn't find any in the minutes
20:22:47 <anthony> ... there was only some discussion on mailing lists and an action to create the item
20:23:09 <anthony> ... and also Boris seemed to be happy with what we had in 1.2 Tiny regarding this
20:25:45 <anthony> ... there doesn't seem to any minuted discussion this
20:26:07 <anthony> AG: Did we want to discuss this at the F2F?
20:26:24 <anthony> ED: We could, the wording could be taken across from 1.2 Tiny
20:26:32 <anthony> ... not sure if that's as easy as it sounds
20:26:59 <anthony> ... JWatt it would be good if you could take a look at the discussions
20:27:09 <anthony> JW: I'd be happy to
20:28:10 <anthony> ED: If you can give your comments on this for the F2F that's be great
20:29:16 <ChrisL> trackbot, staus?
20:29:16 <trackbot> Sorry, ChrisL, I don't understand 'trackbot, staus?'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
20:29:22 <ChrisL> trackbot, staus
20:29:22 <trackbot> Sorry, ChrisL, I don't understand 'trackbot, staus'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
20:29:33 <ChrisL> trackbot, status
20:29:57 <anthony> ACTION: Jonathan to Take a look at the discussions in the errata item 2370 before the SYD F2F
20:29:57 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2403 - Take a look at the discussions in the errata item 2370 before the SYD F2F [on Jonathan Watt - due 2009-01-22].
20:31:40 <anthony> ACTION-2386?
20:31:40 <trackbot> ACTION-2386 -- Jonathan Watt to investigate the "SVGZoomEvent - Interface" errata item further -- due 2008-12-25 -- OPEN
20:31:40 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2386
20:33:05 <anthony> JW: Not very clear on what needs to be done there on that one
20:33:34 <anthony> ACTION-2368?
20:33:34 <trackbot> ACTION-2368 -- Doug Schepers to propose wording for the change that addresses the errata item Current Translate Current Scale on nested SVG -- due 2008-12-08 -- OPEN
20:33:34 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2368
20:33:46 <anthony> DS: I sent an email about this
20:33:54 <shepazu> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/0040.html
20:34:59 <anthony> DS: There are two alternatives, put it in the current defintion or at the top of the interface add some text
20:35:13 <anthony> JW: I don't really like that wording
20:35:53 <anthony> ... having alot of nested SVG elements and then having zoom on one makes it tricky
20:36:25 <ed> <svg><foreignObject><svg>...</svg></foreignObject></svg>
20:36:31 <anthony> ED: Having an SVG with a  foreignObject that reference an SVG root
20:36:53 <ed> (and html around the svg elements in foreignObject)
20:37:24 <anthony> DS: This is something we need to solve this general problem for foreignObject
20:37:31 <anthony> ... it acts as a barrier
20:38:04 <anthony> JW: The foreignObject in Mozilla doesn't really act as a barrier
20:38:26 <anthony> CL: If it's all in the one DOM then I agree there is no barrier then
20:38:36 <anthony> DS: That was the action I had was to state that
20:38:50 <anthony> ... throwing an exception is also acceptable
20:39:11 <anthony> ED: We could simply say it's undefined if you do that
20:39:14 <ChrisL> yes its different by inclusion and by reference
20:39:24 <anthony> ... and just define it for the root most SVG element
20:40:03 <anthony> JW: I guess for me it's not very clear what interface would separate Zooming and Panning in a document
20:40:42 <anthony> CL: The example to have Zooming and Panning on a document is you have a map
20:41:26 <anthony> ... in practice you may not want to do built in Zooming and Panning. But build in your own Zooming and Panning
20:41:46 <anthony> DS: If we have our own defined behaviour it might get used more
20:42:09 <anthony> ... I'm also with Erik here and say it's undefeind
20:42:19 <anthony> s/undefeind/undefined/
20:42:35 <anthony> JW: This is probably a good topic for the SYD F2F
20:43:03 <anthony> ED: My suggestion is to define it for rootmost SVG elements then for nested it's undefined
20:43:32 <anthony> JW: There is a distinction for SVG rootmost which is not the document element?
20:43:35 <anthony> DS: Correct
20:43:57 <anthony> JW: I'd say it's only defined for SVG document element
20:44:09 <anthony> DS: again this is an issue that we are going to talk alot about
20:44:43 <anthony> ... If we are going to have this discussion we should go with Erik's suggestion
20:45:08 <anthony> JW: That's what I'm saying is that we should say defined for document element
20:45:27 <anthony> CL: In a standard SVG file the document element and the rootmost are the same
20:45:51 <anthony> DS: I think that's what JWatt is saying is we can define it for standard SVG and leave it open for HTML
20:46:06 <anthony> ... but I wouldn't want to leave it open for that case
20:46:20 <anthony> ED: It wouldn't effect the surrounding language though?
20:46:31 <anthony> ... you'd expect to affect the SVG only
20:46:43 <anthony> CMC: I dunno if we've thought about it
20:47:05 <anthony> DS: We shouldn't mandate what happens in other languages
20:47:22 <anthony> CMC: I agree with what JWatt is saying that if you have SVG in HTML
20:47:57 <anthony> JW: For what it's worth Mozilla will ignore it if it's not the document element
20:48:28 <anthony> DS: So if you have an inline SVG in HTML and you change the current scale and current translate in that SVG it has no effect?
20:48:33 <anthony> JW: Correct
20:48:42 <anthony> DS: I would find that not very useful
20:49:15 <anthony> ... for example if have an SVG map in HTML and I had HTML controls for zooming and panning then I'd like to do that
20:49:27 <anthony> ED: Seems like a good topic for a F2F
20:49:41 <anthony> DS: I will make an amended version
20:50:01 <anthony> ... then we can discuss whether want rootmost and document element
20:51:49 <shepazu> Zakim, agenda?
20:51:49 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
20:51:50 <Zakim> 1. Errata on Root Overflow: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008JulSep/0347.html [from shepazu]
20:52:10 <anthony> DS: We had a discussion about the errata on root overflow
20:52:21 <anthony> ... but it looks like I didn't add that to the errata
20:52:36 <anthony> ... I would like to see it in the released errata
20:52:52 <anthony> JW: Which one is this?
20:53:06 <anthony> DS: The errata on root overflow
20:53:38 <anthony> ED: I agree with what was agreed on
20:53:54 <shepazu> Action: add errata item for root overflow
20:53:54 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - add
20:54:12 <shepazu> Action: shepazu to add errata item for root overflow
20:54:12 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2404 - Add errata item for root overflow [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-01-22].
20:55:08 <ed> Topic: ACTION-2380
20:55:29 <ed> AG: probably no breakage from merging approved and accepted
20:57:20 <ed> ...the XSLT that generates the report needs to be checked though 
21:06:01 <Zakim> -heycam
21:06:02 <Zakim> -ChrisL
21:06:05 <Zakim> -anthony
21:06:07 <Zakim> -ed
21:06:35 <Zakim> -jwatt
21:06:52 <Zakim> -Shepazu
21:06:54 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()2:30PM has ended
21:06:55 <Zakim> Attendees were Shepazu, ed, heycam, jwatt, anthony, ChrisL
21:07:08 <anthony> Zakim, bye
21:07:08 <Zakim> Zakim has left #svg
21:07:13 <anthony> RRSAgent, make mintues
21:07:13 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make mintues', anthony.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
21:07:23 <anthony> RRSAgent, make minutes
21:07:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/15-svg-minutes.html anthony
21:24:13 <ed> ed has joined #svg
21:46:24 <shepazu> ACTION-2405?
21:46:25 <trackbot> ACTION-2405 -- Doug Schepers to write a proposal for zoomAndPan replacements -- due 2009-03-15 -- OPEN
21:46:25 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2405
22:17:05 <heycam> heycam has joined #svg
22:21:48 <shepazu> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SydneyF2F2009
23:50:40 <heycam> hey anthony, do you know what the distinction between <discussion> and <comment> in the errata file is?