IRC log of css on 2009-01-14

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:52:29 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #css
16:52:29 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/01/14-css-irc
16:52:36 [glazou]: Zakim, this will be Style
16:52:36 [Zakim]: ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
16:52:36 [fantasai]: Bert, do you think the section starting "The middle image's width is scaled"
16:52:38 [fantasai]: is clear?
16:52:51 [fantasai]: there's an issue marked there, I'm wondering if the wording needs tweaking or if I can just remove the issue
16:54:16 [Bert]: The I automatically read "failing that" as "zero or infinity" so I don't hink a rewrite is really necessary.
16:54:22 [Bert]: s/The//
16:54:22 [fantasai]: ok
16:54:25 [fantasai]: cool
16:54:39 [fantasai]: last issue in the text is whether the 'inset' keyword for box-shadow should be renamed 'inner'
16:55:37 [Bert]: Will bg style and bg shadow ever be used together in a shorthand?
16:55:53 [fantasai]: I sincerely doubt it
16:55:58 [fantasai]: bg-shadow is complicated enough on its own
16:56:04 [fantasai]: er
16:56:05 [fantasai]: box shadow
16:56:15 [Bert]: Yes, my mistake.
16:56:18 [glazou]: Bert: : thanks for answer to ITU
16:56:59 [Bert]: I think inset is fine. But I don't know id there is already a traditional name for the effect among designers.
16:57:29 [fantasai]: ok
16:57:43 [fantasai]: I'll remove the issue for now then
16:58:01 [emilyw]: emilyw has joined #css
16:58:06 [Bert]: If there is no strong reason to change it, I prefer keeping inset. Avoids having to remember an extra keyword.
16:58:10 [fantasai]: yeah
16:58:22 [Zakim]: Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
16:58:29 [Zakim]: +plinss
16:58:30 [Zakim]: +dsinger
16:59:02 [Zakim]: +Bert
16:59:32 [melinda]: melinda has joined #CSS
16:59:48 [Dsinger_]: Dsinger_ has joined #css
17:00:07 [Dsinger_]: Zakin, mute me
17:00:15 [Zakim]: +??P37
17:00:27 [Dsinger_]: Zakim, mute me
17:00:27 [Zakim]: sorry, Dsinger_, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
17:00:33 [Zakim]: + +1.206.324.aaaa
17:00:52 [Dsinger_]: Zakim, who is here?
17:00:53 [Zakim]: On the phone I see dsinger, plinss, Bert, ??P37, +1.206.324.aaaa
17:00:56 [Zakim]: On IRC I see Dsinger_, melinda, emilyw, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, anne, fantasai, myakura, shepazu, krijnh, plinss, Hixie, Bert, jdaggett, trackbot, hsivonen
17:00:59 [Zakim]: +glazou
17:01:27 [Dsinger_]: Zakim, mute dsinger
17:01:27 [Zakim]: dsinger should now be muted
17:02:40 [Zakim]: +Melinda_Grant
17:02:48 [sylvaing]: sylvaing has joined #css
17:03:04 [ChrisL]: ChrisL has joined #css
17:04:51 [fantasai]: Zakim, +1.206 is sylvaing
17:04:56 [Zakim]: +sylvaing; got it
17:04:57 [Zakim]: +ChrisL
17:05:01 [fantasai]: Zakim, +P37 is fantasai
17:05:06 [Zakim]: sorry, fantasai, I do not recognize a party named '+P37'
17:05:15 [fantasai]: Zakim, +??P37 is fantasai
17:05:20 [glazou]: dsinger: do you have friends working on I18N at apple ?
17:05:22 [fantasai]: Zakim, ??P37 is fantasai
17:05:24 [Zakim]: sorry, fantasai, I do not recognize a party named '+??P37'
17:05:33 [Zakim]: +fantasai; got it
17:05:36 [fantasai]: zakim, mute me
17:05:43 [Zakim]: fantasai should now be muted
17:05:43 [dsinger]: No idea !
17:06:37 [fantasai]: zakim, unmute me
17:06:37 [Zakim]: fantasai should no longer be muted
17:07:18 [ChrisL]: s/but/bug/
17:07:30 [glazou]: ChrisL: http://tinyurl.com/8tp7u5
17:08:18 [Zakim]: +SteveZ
17:09:50 [glazou]: utf-8
17:10:04 [glazou]: apparenty, it's the ftp server turning é into e+'
17:10:05 [szilles]: szilles has joined #css
17:10:15 [Zakim]: -dsinger
17:10:23 [dbaron]: dbaron has joined #css
17:10:41 [Zakim]: +dsinger
17:10:46 [fantasai]: ScribeNick: fantasai
17:11:00 [Dsinger_]: Dsinger_ has joined #css
17:11:16 [plinss]: http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-92
17:11:18 [fantasai]: Topic: Widows and Orphans
17:11:18 [Zakim]: +[Mozilla]
17:11:27 [Dsinger_]: Zakim, mute me
17:11:27 [Zakim]: sorry, Dsinger_, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
17:11:32 [dbaron]: Zakim, [Mozilla] has dbaron
17:11:32 [Zakim]: +dbaron; got it
17:11:46 [Zakim]: +??P18
17:12:03 [dbaron]: Zakim, mute dsinger
17:12:05 [Zakim]: dsinger should now be muted
17:12:12 [emilyw]: zakim, ??P18 is me
17:12:12 [Zakim]: +emilyw; got it
17:12:14 [dsinger]: Zakim, mute me
17:12:14 [Zakim]: dsinger was already muted, dsinger
17:12:21 [emilyw]: zakim, mute me
17:12:21 [Zakim]: emilyw should now be muted
17:12:27 [glazou]: hi emilyw
17:12:54 [emilyw]: hi glazou
17:13:55 [fantasai]: Melinda: I would limit the proposal to the first line there
17:13:59 [fantasai]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Dec/0008.html
17:14:30 [fantasai]: I suggest changing "minimum number of lines of a paragraph" to "minimum number of line boxes in a block element"
17:14:35 [fantasai]: This is a change we made to css3
17:14:42 [fantasai]: s/This/Melinda: This/
17:14:50 [fantasai]: s/I suggest/Melinda: I suggest/
17:15:54 [fantasai]: Melinda: I'm withdrawing the second half of the proposal (wrt table rows)
17:16:00 [fantasai]: Peter: Any objections?
17:16:23 [fantasai]: Bert: I think that's what we always meant it to be, just sloppy prose
17:16:28 [fantasai]: SteveZ: I agree with Melinda's change
17:16:38 [fantasai]: RESOLVED: Accept proposal
17:16:40 [dbaron]: I agree as well.
17:17:03 [plinss]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Jan/0087.html
17:17:12 [fantasai]: Topic: Margins at page and column breaks
17:17:22 [fantasai]: Melinda: I wanted to talk about top margins with respect to page breaks
17:17:29 [fantasai]: Melinda: I don't have anything wrt columns that I want to put forward
17:17:33 [fantasai]: Melinda: Shall we plunge into that?
17:17:34 [Zakim]: +??P21
17:17:45 [dbaron]: Zakim, who is noisy?
17:17:54 [ChrisL]: zakim, who is talking?
17:17:55 [Zakim]: dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P21 (75%), fantasai (20%), glazou (4%), Melinda_Grant (46%)
17:18:03 [dbaron]: Zakim, ??P21 is howcome
17:18:13 [dsinger]: dsinger has left #css
17:18:14 [Zakim]: +howcome; got it
17:18:19 [Zakim]: ChrisL, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P21 (51%), fantasai (27%), glazou (23%), Melinda_Grant (61%)
17:18:26 [fantasai]: Melinda: Discussion on www-style started by Murakami-san about margins at page breaks.
17:18:36 [fantasai]: Melinda: Michael Day has a proposal, that I think is a very good one.
17:18:42 [fantasai]: Melinda: But a piece of it would require change to 2.1
17:18:56 [fantasai]: Melinda: Right now that we say that when a page break occurs between blocks, the margins get zeroed
17:19:11 [fantasai]: Melinda: Michael's proposal is that they only get zeroed if the break is not forced
17:19:18 [fantasai]: Melinda: If the break is forced, then the top margin is kept
17:19:23 [fantasai]: Melinda: this makes a lot of sense
17:20:05 [fantasai]: Melinda: You don't want the first page of the document, which might well be the first page of a chapter/section, to format differently from first page of a chapter or section
17:20:23 [fantasai]: Melinda: The first page is not after a page break, so the top margin there won't get zeroed
17:20:33 [fantasai]: Melinda: But when you force a page break before the first page of chapter 2, chapter 3, etc.
17:20:41 [fantasai]: Melinda: That top margin disappears
17:20:52 [fantasai]: Melinda: That means you have to do exception styling for the first page
17:21:04 [fantasai]: Melinda: Also it's very confusing for authors for the margin to disappear
17:21:16 [fantasai]: Melinda: So the proposal is to open up 2.1 to allow Prince's behavior
17:21:30 [fantasai]: Melinda: I would like to /allow/ that behavior: allow you to retain a top margin after a forced break
17:21:40 [dbaron]: Changing 2.1 to allow retention of the top margin after a forced page break sounds good to me.
17:21:41 [fantasai]: Melinda: And in CSS3 we want to move to mandating that
17:21:55 [fantasai]: howcome: I support your proposal
17:22:04 [fantasai]: howcome: I think it's a logical behavior
17:22:26 [fantasai]: howcome: I agree with allowing it in 2.1 and requiring it in 2.1
17:22:29 [fantasai]: s/2.1/3
17:22:33 [fantasai]
17:22:53 [fantasai]: SteveZ: I'm not sure if on the 4th page you want to retain the margin
17:23:06 [fantasai]: SteveZ: XSL has a property to control this
17:23:17 [fantasai]: Melinda: XSL-FO does have a property to control whether margins are present or not
17:23:26 [fantasai]: Melinda: And I think we do want to have controls in the future
17:23:38 [Zakim]: -dsinger
17:23:38 [fantasai]: Melinda: But I think we want to get the best default behavior now
17:23:56 [dsinger]: dsinger has joined #css
17:24:02 [fantasai]: Melinda: There were some interesting proposals for margin collapsing controls in that thread
17:24:08 [Zakim]: +[Apple]
17:24:16 [dsinger]: zakim, [Apple] has dsinger
17:24:16 [Zakim]: +dsinger; got it
17:24:28 [fantasai]: Melinda: The proposal for controls on margin collapsing on the margin properties is a good idea and somewhere we should go in the future
17:25:44 [ChrisL]: I agree with fantasai, this does not block future extensibility
17:25:46 [fantasai]: SteveZ: I'm concerned about this proposal to preserve margins after forced page breaks
17:25:55 [fantasai]: SteveZ: what if you don't want the margin preserved?
17:26:21 [fantasai]: SteveZ: Wouldn't this block extensibility?
17:26:33 [fantasai]: fantasai: No, this would just be the 'auto' behavior.
17:26:42 [glazou]: Zakim, mute me
17:26:42 [Zakim]: glazou should now be muted
17:26:44 [fantasai]: fantasai: you could then have other values that say always do this, or always do that.
17:27:22 [sylvaing]: it sounds like what we are really defining here is the smart default/auto behavior.
17:27:25 [fantasai]: howcome: We don't want to add a new property for every issue
17:27:54 [Bert]: (If table#t1 needs a page-break-before, then you can give it margin:0 in the same rule)
17:29:08 [fantasai]: SteveZ: what if I have a table and I want to force a break to put it at the top of the page?
17:29:18 [fantasai]: fantasai: set margin-top: 0; along with page-break-before: always;
17:29:33 [fantasai]: fantasai: If we preserve the margins by default, you always have the option of zeroing it out
17:29:57 [Bert]: (We also can set the first top margin by using a named page with that top margin...)
17:30:00 [ChrisL]: Yes, its a more sensible default. As fantasai says, if you are forcing a page break, you now have the option of retaining or removing the top margin
17:30:02 [fantasai]: fantasai: but you can't put it in if the algorithm requires deleting it
17:30:16 [ChrisL]: q+ to suggest a "should"
17:31:24 [fantasai]: Chris: Can we make it a should in 2.1?
17:31:39 [fantasai]: Melinda: I think that would be difficult, because we have several implementations that don't align on this
17:32:25 [dbaron]: So, for what it's worth (since it's hard to get a word in), there are some other use cases for margins that disappear.
17:32:37 [dbaron]: It's a quirks mode behavior at the edges of the body and the edges of tables cells, at least.
17:32:47 [fantasai]: Chris: but we should give some guidance to implementors
17:32:57 [fantasai]: Melinda: I'm thinking putting it in CSS3 Paged Media will give that guidance
17:33:15 [fantasai]: howcome: behavior on columns should be consistent with that for page breaks
17:33:29 [fantasai]: SteveZ: I certainly understand the argument, I'm just concerned that it's going to ...
17:33:43 [fantasai]: Melinda: I've been trying to think of counter-examples for a long time
17:33:49 [fantasai]: Melinda: I'm happy with this solution
17:34:07 [fantasai]: SteveZ: I know that what I've done for prints, I've put in page breaks for many other reasons than starting a new chapter.
17:34:19 [fantasai]: SteveZ: i understand fantasai's point about being able to turn it off in that context
17:34:28 [fantasai]: SteveZ: I'm concerned that this kind of design is usually bad
17:34:36 [fantasai]: SteveZ: It makes an assumption that one case is more important than the others
17:34:55 [fantasai]: Howcome: I've been pushing for Prince to follow the specifications, and I've pushed Michael on this specific issue
17:35:04 [fantasai]: Howcome: But he won't change it, and he points to user feedback.
17:35:45 [sylvaing]: does it make one case more important than the others, or does it pick what the default behavior should be ?
17:36:13 [fantasai]: SteveZ worries about this auto behavior closing off the possibility of controls in the future.
17:36:47 [fantasai]: Melinda: We don't want to close off the possibility of controls in the future. How about you think about that for the next week and report back if you find any issues
17:36:59 [fantasai]: ...
17:37:45 [fantasai]: SteveZ: My concern is that the decision for whether you want to collapse or not doesn't depend on the element but on the container
17:38:09 [fantasai]: SteveZ: We're talking about a different behavior when you're positioned somewhere particular in a container
17:38:20 [fantasai]: Melinda: I don't understand. could you draw some use cases
17:38:30 [fantasai]: SteveZ: So your use case is the margin at the beginning of a chapter
17:39:24 [fantasai]: more discussion between Melinda and SteveZ, not much very clear
17:39:58 [fantasai]: Howcome: THe one use case you've mentioned so far is you have a table, and you want it to start on a new page, and you want to collapse the margin.
17:40:14 [fantasai]: Howcome: When you set the break, you can remove the margin
17:40:27 [fantasai]: Melinda: The current behavior is not that the margin collapses, but that it is removed
17:41:05 [fantasai]: SteveZ: You want to remove all the margins at that point, however deep they are
17:41:15 [fantasai]: fantasai: So you want something like margin-top: hidden;
17:42:10 [fantasai]: SteveZ: You can't zero the margin if you don't know whether you're at the top of the page
17:42:24 [fantasai]: Melinda: You're always at the top of the page after a forced break
17:42:30 [fantasai]: SteveZ: what about keep-together?
17:42:45 [fantasai]: Melinda: That's not a forced break. The margins get zeroed as currently defined
17:43:05 [fantasai]: ...
17:43:10 [fantasai]: SteveZ: Ok, I'm understanding the logic.
17:43:18 [fantasai]: SteveZ: I'm concerned about future compat.
17:43:32 [fantasai]: ACTION SteveZ: Think about this
17:43:32 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-121 - Think about this [on Steve Zilles - due 2009-01-21].
17:43:50 [glazou]: Zakim, unmute me
17:43:50 [Zakim]: glazou should no longer be muted
17:44:05 [Zakim]: +SteveZ.a
17:44:09 [Zakim]: -SteveZ
17:44:48 [fantasai]: TENTATIVE RESOLUTION: Accept Melinda's proposal to allow margins to be kept after a forced page break
17:44:53 [fantasai]: PENDING: SteveZ's ok
17:45:30 [fantasai]: Topic: Background Layering
17:45:48 [fantasai]: fantasai: I heard from Hyatt that basing layering on background-image only was ok
17:45:50 [fantasai]: dsinger confirms
17:45:57 [fantasai]: RESOLVED: layering based on background-image only
17:46:14 [fantasai]: Topic: June F2F
17:46:31 [fantasai]: Peter: We'd like to confirm the dates for June in Sophia-Antipolis
17:46:36 [fantasai]: Peter: Currently listed for 24-26
17:46:39 [arronei]: arronei has joined #CSS
17:46:44 [fantasai]: Bert: With me those are still fine
17:46:59 [fantasai]: Howcome: The holidays start then, and kids are out of school
17:47:03 [fantasai]: Howcome: I will not be able to attend
17:47:34 [fantasai]: dbaron: I remember signs in Antibes that had parking restrictions starting the middle of June
17:47:42 [dsinger]: overlaps a 3GPP SA4 meeting (Ystad) but that's not serious
17:47:51 [emilyw]: emilyw has joined #css
17:47:56 [fantasai]: Melinda: how far back would we have to move it to enable you to join, howcome?
17:47:58 [dsinger]: I always stay in Valbonne, where one can usually park (unless there is an antiques fair)
17:48:20 [fantasai]: Howcome: beginning of the month would be better
17:48:27 [fantasai]: Howcome: I think the holidays start around the 14th
17:48:38 [fantasai]: Howcome: 12th
17:48:42 [fantasai]: Howcome: Friday the 12th
17:48:51 [fantasai]: SteveZ: Bert, you're on vacation in June?
17:49:01 [fantasai]: Bert: I'm away from 7-20
17:49:18 [fantasai]: Howcome: What about the first week of June?
17:49:20 [dsinger]: please, no earlier, the current week already starts 5 on the road for me
17:49:45 [fantasai]: SteveZ and fantasai can't do the last week of May
17:49:53 [fantasai]: Glazou: 1st of June is a holiday in France
17:50:02 [fantasai]: Chris: What about 3-5th of June
17:50:12 [fantasai]: Bert: probably ok, but I'd like a few days to check that
17:50:21 [dsinger]: not sure I would travel as it would be a standalone...bit I don't have a conflict
17:50:37 [fantasai]: Melinda: Would we lose anyone on the call if we moved it there?
17:51:16 [fantasai]: *dsinger said
17:51:16 [glazou]: Bert: excellent suggestion indeed !
17:51:19 [dsinger]: don't decide on me...
17:51:47 [sylvaing]: we can hang out on howcome's yacht. avoids parking issues.
17:52:16 [Bert]: You have no idea how expensive parlking for yachts is here :-)
17:52:29 [dbaron]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Nov/0022.html was our previous discussion of meeting scheduling for this meeting
17:52:45 [fantasai]: Peter: Ok, we'll give Bert a chance to look at that
17:52:53 [fantasai]: Peter: And we'll keep both sets of dates penciled in, come back to this
17:52:59 [dbaron]: I think the reason we rejected first week of June before was Bert's constraints, since he was unsure of dates.
17:53:15 [fantasai]: Topic: Invited Experts
17:53:36 [fantasai]: [unminuted]
17:56:39 [fantasai]: RESOLVED: proposal accepted
17:57:46 [fantasai]: Topic: Backgrounds and Borders
17:57:54 [fantasai]: fantasai: Preparing for last call
17:57:59 [fantasai]: dbaron: thinking about at-risk
17:58:34 [fantasai]: dbaron, peter: put thinks at risk if they don't have at least one implementation
18:00:19 [dsinger]: thx
18:00:20 [Zakim]: -[Mozilla]
18:00:22 [Zakim]: -SteveZ.a
18:00:22 [Zakim]: -Melinda_Grant
18:00:23 [Zakim]: -ChrisL
18:00:23 [Zakim]: -[Apple]
18:00:25 [Zakim]: -sylvaing
18:00:27 [Zakim]: -plinss
18:00:31 [Zakim]: -emilyw
18:00:37 [Zakim]: -Bert
18:00:39 [Zakim]: -fantasai
18:00:41 [Zakim]: -glazou
18:00:43 [Zakim]: -howcome
18:00:46 [Zakim]: Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
18:00:50 [Zakim]: Attendees were plinss, dsinger, Bert, +1.206.324.aaaa, glazou, Melinda_Grant, sylvaing, ChrisL, fantasai, SteveZ, dbaron, emilyw, howcome
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20:19:21 [fantasai]: Bert: I've added a sentence to handle fixed backgrounds in paged media,
20:19:31 [fantasai]: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-background/#the-background-attachment
20:19:34 [fantasai]: Let me know if that works
20:21:11 [melinda]: Where is the image to be anchored?
20:21:43 [fantasai]: initial containing block
20:21:48 [fantasai]: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-background/#background5
20:22:21 [melinda]: But which corner of the image is anchored to which corner of the initial containing block?
20:22:27 [fantasai]: Bert, is that your post-processor?
20:22:32 [fantasai]: melinda: determined by background-position
20:54:17 [fantasai]: Bert, don't remove the sane IDs!
21:10:01 [anne]: anne has left #css
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21:26:53 [Bert]: Fantasai, if you put in an ID yourself, the postprocessor will use it and not generate one of its own.
21:27:18 [Bert]: If you're missing two that you out in earlier, it's me who removed them...
21:27:23 [krijnh]: krijnh has joined #css
21:28:25 [Bert]: (But I find it's rarely needed to invent anchors. The auto link from an inline elt to a dfn is usually enough.)
21:36:28 [krijnh]: krijnh has joined #css
21:39:31 [anne]: they are usually really ugly
21:39:40 [anne]: the ones Anolis generates are prettier
21:40:02 [anne]: but Anolis is not a stable Web service quite yet last I checked, although HTML5 appears to be using it
21:40:34 [anne]: on an unrelated note, is TJ planning on replying to each e-mail?
21:44:36 [krijnh]: krijnh has joined #css
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21:54:38 [dbaron]: Bert, I think putting in the IDs is much better, since then they stay stable as the spec changes.
21:54:45 [Bert]: The IDs are typically the first one or two words concatenated, with a digit added if that is not unique.
21:54:48 [dbaron]: Bert, whereas otherwise changes in the spec change bcakground5 to background6, etc.
21:55:04 [dbaron]: Bert, and that breaks people's links
21:55:46 [Bert]: You can put in the IDs that you know you need, but I don't like to do work that that computer can do for me. That's why the cross-refs are automatic.
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21:58:02 [Hixie]: anne: define "stable"?
21:58:32 [Hixie]: it's mostly compatible with bert's script
22:02:11 [dbaron]: stables are specifically for horses; barns are for general animal housing
22:03:45 [anne]: pimpmyspec.net, sweet
22:05:45 [krijnh]: krijnh has joined #css
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22:23:33 [fantasai]: Bert, I agree with David. It's fine to let the post-processor generate the links, but the anchors should be manual anytime we start seeing digits
22:23:46 [fantasai]: so <dfn>property-name</dfn> usually is ok
22:24:02 [fantasai]: but <dfn>bla bla</dfn> starts generating bla1 bla2
22:24:04 [fantasai]: etc
22:24:18 [fantasai]: also <dfn>property</dfn>
22:24:44 [fantasai]: your dfn ID generator should use the entire contents of <dfn>, not just the first word