17:46:13 RRSAgent has joined #ua 17:46:13 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-ua-irc 17:46:27 zakim, this will be wai_u 17:46:27 ok, AllanJ; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 14 minutes 17:46:46 rrsagent, set logs public 17:48:43 trackbot has joined #ua 17:50:09 KFord has joined #ua 17:51:04 regrets: Simon_Harper 17:52:37 title: UAWG Telecon 17:52:46 chair: Jim Allan 17:53:37 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started 17:53:45 +[Microsoft] 17:53:55 Agenda+ Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)? 17:53:57 Agenda+ Complete Review Survey Items 17:53:58 Agenda+ Edit Introduction 17:54:00 Agenda+ Review Action Item status 17:54:01 Agenda+ Continue review of Guideline 3.5 through 3.13 (time permitting) 17:54:19 zakim, +microsoft is kford 17:54:19 sorry, KFord, I do not recognize a party named '+microsoft' 17:54:43 zakim [microsoft] is kford 17:54:47 + +1.512.206.aaaa 17:55:05 zakim, [microsoft] is kford 17:55:05 +kford; got it 17:55:08 zakim, aaaa is really jallan 17:55:08 +jallan; got it 17:57:28 jeanne has joined #ua 17:58:04 zakim, code? 17:58:04 the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jeanne 17:58:25 +jeanne 18:01:13 +Cantor 18:02:04 judy has joined #ua 18:02:31 zakim, time? 18:02:31 I don't understand your question, jeanne. 18:02:39 zakim, what time is it? 18:02:43 I don't understand your question, jeanne. 18:02:46 Alan has joined #ua 18:02:50 +Judy 18:04:04 zakim, who's here? 18:04:04 On the phone I see kford, jallan, jeanne, Cantor, Judy 18:04:05 On IRC I see Alan, judy, jeanne, KFord, trackbot, RRSAgent, Zakim, AllanJ 18:04:28 JR has joined #ua 18:04:36 I will have to leave in about 30 minutes. Other committments. 18:04:47 zakim, code? 18:04:47 the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), JR 18:05:11 rrsagent, set logs public 18:05:25 rrsagent, make minutes 18:05:25 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-ua-minutes.html jeanne 18:05:59 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JanMar/0000.html 18:06:13 regrets: Simon 18:06:47 present: Kelly, Jim, Jeanne, Alan, Judy 18:06:52 +Mark_Hakkinen 18:07:04 zakim, agenda? 18:07:04 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda: 18:07:05 1. Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)? [from AllanJ] 18:07:06 2. Complete Review Survey Items [from AllanJ] 18:07:07 3. Edit Introduction [from AllanJ] 18:07:09 4. Review Action Item status [from AllanJ] 18:07:10 5. Continue review of Guideline 3.5 through 3.13 (time permitting) [from AllanJ] 18:07:16 present+ Mark 18:07:27 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791 18:07:40 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/ 18:07:44 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/ 18:08:22 zakim, take up agendum 1 18:08:22 agendum 1. "Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)? " taken up [from AllanJ] 18:08:31 +??P14 18:08:47 zakim, ??P14 is really JR 18:08:47 +JR; got it 18:09:02 mth has joined #ua 18:09:17 zakim, close item 1 18:09:17 agendum 1, Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)? , closed 18:09:18 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 18:09:19 2. Complete Review Survey Items [from AllanJ] 18:09:22 zakim, take up item 2 18:09:22 agendum 2. "Complete Review Survey Items" taken up [from AllanJ] 18:09:32 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/ 18:11:00 request for a separate announcement for surveys. 18:12:34 q+ 18:12:41 q+ 18:12:52 JB: Definition should be first. 18:13:20 JB: Requests that the email subject is Survey: Fill Out for [date] 18:13:24 ack KFord 18:13:57 topic: Survey item 1 - order of sections in Intro 18:14:00 Introduction 18:14:02 Definition of authoring tool 18:14:04 Components of Web Accessibility 18:14:05 Organization of the ATAG 2.0 Document 18:14:07 Levels of Conformance 18:14:08 Relationship to the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines (WCAG) 18:14:17 KF: the definition needs to go at the beginning, not at the end. 18:14:46 NOTE: Levels of confromance removed from ATAG2 intro 18:15:21 http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-WCAG20-20081211/#intro 18:15:35 MH: likes order of ATAG from JR 18:15:37 WCAG puts their definition last. 18:16:07 JA: There is no precedent, so we can choose whichever order we want. 18:17:06 Resolved: The definition of User agent will go after the Overview. 18:17:53 JB: The definition of User Agent could be a narrative in the beginning to socially get people into the document. 18:18:50 ... but that would give two different definitions, which could be a problem. \ 18:19:08 MH: Could give a link to the more formal definition. 18:19:54 s/a problem. \a problem. 18:20:35 JA: Let's take time to work on a narrative definition. 18:20:43 user agent [WCAG 2.0, UAAG 2.0] 18:20:45 Any software that retrieves and presents Web content for end users. Examples include Web browsers, media players, plug-ins, and other programs including assistive technologies, that help in retrieving, rendering and interacting with Web content. 18:20:49 JB: Give a 10 minute time limit. 18:22:20 MH: The definition that Jan put up doesn't include anything about documentation. 18:22:47 s/a problem. /\a problem. 18:23:56 JA: it doesn't include gmail, rrsagents and other web applications. 18:24:40 KF: Can you add in the last section that includes web content and web applications. 18:25:55 web apps run within web browsers, but so do media players, etc. 18:26:13 maybe group web apps with assistive technologies. 18:26:18 JA: If we change our definition of user agent, will that cause problems for the other documents. 18:26:47 q+ 18:27:09 JB: If the definition we have isn't accurate, we need to see how out of sync it is with WCAG. Since WCAG is in final recommendation, that is fixed. 18:27:49 JR: UAAG1 definition part 1 - The software and documentation components that together, conform to the requirements of this document. This is the most common use of the term in this document and is the usage in the guidelines. 18:28:32 JB: ATAG doesn't say anything about web based or non-web based in the definition. 18:29:00 JR: recommend drop UAAG1 part 1, and only use part 2 which aligns with ATAG and WCAG 18:29:07 KF: It is ok that we don't say web applications, because this is a basic definition and it gives people a sense of the ballpark we are talking about without leaving anything out that is critical. 18:29:14 =1 18:29:54 JR: we can back it up with additional discussion that gives the scope without making it part of the normative section. 18:30:15 jeanne agrees to dropping part 1 18:31:30 No objections and individual agreement. 18:32:23 Proposed: Any software that retrieves and presents Web content for end users. Examples include Web browsers, media players, plug-ins, and other programs including assistive technologies, that help in retrieving, rendering and interacting with Web content. 18:32:57 proposed to add as the first sentence: A user agent is any software that retrieves and presents Web content for end users. Examples include Web browsers, media players, plug-ins, and other programs including assistive technologies, that help in retrieving, rendering and interacting with Web content. 18:35:06 http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2008/WD-UAAG20-20081210/Introduction-Proposal20081223.html 18:35:58 A user agent is any software that retrieves and presents Web content for end users. Examples include Web browsers, media players, plug-ins, and other programs including assistive technologies, that help in retrieving, rendering and interacting with Web content. This document specifies requirements that, if satisfied by user agent developers, will lower barriers to accessibility. 18:36:01 sounds good to me. 18:36:15 +1 18:37:54 JR: would like an H3 section on definition 18:38:45 JS: so it would be Into, Overview, Layers, ..., then Definition 18:38:55 JR: need to see how it all flows 18:39:18 MH: would link to definition go to H# section or glossary 18:39:28 JA: glossary 18:40:57 http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2008/WD-UAAG20-20081210/Introduction-Proposal20090108.html 18:41:48 MH: we may have 3 instances of the definition that all say the same Introduction, H3, and glossary 18:42:06 JR: Whatever we do, ATAG should do the same thing. 18:42:24 JB: We also have to look at the publishing schedule. 18:42:46 JB: timing, ATAG and UAAG should do the same thing, but not critical until end stages 18:44:20 action: jeanne to update the document Introduction with the definition and introductory paragraph 18:44:20 Created ACTION-108 - Update the document Introduction with the definition and introductory paragraph [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-01-15]. 18:44:21 -Cantor 18:45:16 Topic: Review Overview for inclusion in draft 18:47:14 reviewed comments: fine piece of work. I understand the need for device independence. I was wanting some mention of platform issues (which related to this). Accessibility changes with disability, but also with environment, platform, bandwidth etc. UAAG is attempting to bridge these. Not sure what spatial and temporal independence means. 18:47:32 JS: The overview section comes from the F2F where different sentences were flagged to go into a conceptual overview. I had an action item to write one sentence, but realized that we needed to pull the whole section together. The sentences are pasted together with some wordsmithing to improve the flow. 18:48:30 JR: the bullet points do not map to our document, that could cause confusion. 18:49:10 JS: We could delete the sentence and bullets. 18:49:24 JB: Why don't we use our Principles there? 18:50:23 KF: This goal is achieved by using: list the principles. 18:51:16 This goal is achieved by constructing a user agent the complies with the following principles: 18:52:11 JR: Some users may have more than one disability... This isn't an overview, it is an answer to the question, "why are there so many options". The same thing with security. It is an answer to the question: What about security? 18:52:39 JB: security. why in intro. should be in guidelines. 18:53:00 JS: at F2F we agreed to keep these in the intro 18:54:03 http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#new-terms 18:55:43 JB: There are issues that do seem to deserve their own heading. 18:55:54 JR: if we need to call out perhaps a new section 18:56:15 KF: This is better than what we had, so I propose we go ahead with this intro for this publication and look at it again. 18:57:00 JR: WCAG put a note that the Working Group is still working on it and interested in feedback. 18:58:12 KF: add disclaimer and request feedback to make document more consumable 18:58:12 KF: We could put it in the Status section: The Working Group is revising the Introduction and is looking for feedback that the issues are introduced in a manner that is clear. 18:58:44 JB: We can do it in the Status section and also add an Editor's Note. 19:00:10 action: JS top update the Status section and the announcements to add a request for feedback on the Introduction and add an Editor's Note that it is still being revised. 19:00:11 Created ACTION-109 - Top update the Status section and the announcements to add a request for feedback on the Introduction and add an Editor's Note that it is still being revised. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-01-15]. 19:01:04 JR: Add: the group is still looking for the best place to place this information. 19:01:48 JB: We should look at the note system in the WCAG draft. It interrupts people's flow of reading it. 19:02:18 JB: If we have signicant concerns about including it without the disclaimer, then we should put it in. 19:03:15 JR: Add the disclaimer just for the security paragraph. 19:04:26 Topic: Survey on Layers of Guidance 19:05:01 JA: The editor's note asks if there will be advisory techniques. 19:05:10 JR: Think this part is too much: ", and documented common failures with examples, resource links and code." 19:05:14 JR: there will be advisory techniques, I think. 19:06:26 JA: We would have difficulty providing examples and code. 19:06:34 MH: It is a can of worms, take it out. 19:06:39 KF. It needs to go. 19:07:20 In order to meet the varying needs of the different audiences using UAAG, several layers of guidance are provided including overall principles, general guidelines, testable success criteria and a rich collection of sufficient techniques, resource links and code. 19:07:53 In order to meet the varying needs of the different audiences using UAAG, several layers of guidance are provided including overall principles, general guidelines, testable success criteria and a rich collection of sufficient techniques, and resource links. 19:08:21 In order to meet the varying needs of the different audiences using UAAG, several layers of guidance are provided including overall principles, general guidelines, testable success criteria, a rich collection of sufficient techniques, and resource links. 19:09:09 JA: Fix spelling: Two principle have been added - should be principles. 19:10:14 MH: needs a comma in the last paragraph between cognitive and language. 19:10:27 +1 19:11:10 action: js to edit Layers of Guidance with the notes above. 19:15:23 action: JS to make a list of items that are in multiple places so that as we edit the document, all locations are updated. 19:15:23 Created ACTION-111 - Make a list of items that are in multiple places so that as we edit the document, all locations are updated. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-01-15]. 19:24:05 topic: Open Action Items 19:24:35 JA: review the open actions and figure out how we can get them done, or say that they won't be done. 19:25:17 JB: I recommend scheduling a chunk of time on a weekly basis to work on the action items so they can be sent to Jeanne in time for the survey. 19:25:57 JA: What is the best way to coordinate with EO? 19:26:25 -JR 19:26:27 -Mark_Hakkinen 19:26:34 JB: THe best thing is for Judy to work with Shawn. Most groups do not have regular representation on EO. 19:27:23 zakim, bye 19:27:23 leaving. As of this point the attendees were +1.512.206.aaaa, kford, jallan, jeanne, Cantor, Judy, Mark_Hakkinen, JR 19:27:23 Zakim has left #ua 19:27:41 rrsagent, make minutes 19:27:41 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-ua-minutes.html jeanne 20:13:00 rrsagent, bye 20:13:00 I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-ua-actions.rdf : 20:13:00 ACTION: jeanne to update the document Introduction with the definition and introductory paragraph [1] 20:13:00 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-ua-irc#T18-44-20 20:13:00 ACTION: JS top update the Status section and the announcements to add a request for feedback on the Introduction and add an Editor's Note that it is still being revised. [2] 20:13:00 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-ua-irc#T19-00-10 20:13:00 ACTION: js to edit Layers of Guidance with the notes above. [3] 20:13:00 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-ua-irc#T19-11-10 20:13:00 ACTION: JS to make a list of items that are in multiple places so that as we edit the document, all locations are updated. [4] 20:13:00 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-ua-irc#T19-15-23