IRC log of svg on 2009-01-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

19:29:59 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #svg

19:29:59 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-svg-irc

19:30:01 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs public

19:30:01 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #svg

19:30:03 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG

19:30:03 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG()2:30PM scheduled to start now

19:30:04 [trackbot]

Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference

19:30:04 [trackbot]

Date: 08 January 2009

19:30:33 [Zakim]

GA_SVGWG()2:30PM has now started

19:30:35 [Zakim]

+Shepazu

19:32:08 [Zakim]

+??P5

19:32:31 [Zakim]

+ChrisL

19:32:34 [ed]

Zakim, ??P5 is me

19:32:34 [Zakim]

+ed; got it

19:32:50 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

19:33:01 [heycam]

Zakim, +[ is me

19:33:01 [Zakim]

sorry, heycam, I do not recognize a party named '+['

19:33:05 [heycam]

Zakim, [

19:33:05 [Zakim]

I don't understand '[', heycam

19:33:06 [heycam]

Zakim, [ is me

19:33:06 [Zakim]

+heycam; got it

19:33:13 [Zakim]

-ed

19:33:28 [Zakim]

-ChrisL

19:33:34 [Zakim]

+??P5

19:33:54 [Zakim]

+Shepazu.a

19:33:57 [Zakim]

-Shepazu.a

19:34:00 [Zakim]

-Shepazu

19:34:10 [Zakim]

+ +39.524.9.aaaa

19:34:13 [Zakim]

+Shepazu

19:34:38 [ed]

Zakim, ??P5 is me

19:34:38 [Zakim]

+ed; got it

19:35:01 [ChrisL]

zakim, who is here?

19:35:01 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Shepazu, heycam, ed, +39.524.9.aaaa

19:35:02 [Zakim]

On IRC I see RRSAgent, ChrisL, ed, trackbot, heycam, anthony, shepazu, ed_work

19:35:12 [ChrisL]

zakim, +39 is me

19:35:12 [Zakim]

+ChrisL; got it

19:36:01 [ed]

Zakim, pick a victim

19:36:01 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose ed

19:36:08 [ed]

Zakim, pick a victim

19:36:08 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose ed

19:36:12 [ed]

Zakim, pick a victim

19:36:12 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Shepazu

19:36:28 [ChrisL]

zakim, good doggie

19:36:28 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'good doggie', ChrisL

19:37:00 [ed]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/0011.html

19:37:30 [ed]

Chair: ED

19:37:43 [ed]

Scribe: shepazu

19:37:49 [ed]

Scribenick: shepazu

19:39:16 [shepazu]

Topic: Agenda for Sydney F2F

19:40:11 [shepazu]

ed: several possible topics...

19:40:39 [shepazu]

... errata, filters, layout, compositing, modules, next version of the spec...

19:40:50 [shepazu]

... what's happening with Print spec?

19:41:11 [shepazu]

ChrisL: Print spec is suffering from lack of implementations...

19:41:26 [shepazu]

.. open source folks are interested in the color profiles

19:41:44 [shepazu]

ed: how can we speed up the process?

19:42:19 [shepazu]

ChrisL: I've talked to folks from Scribus and Inkscape, but they are worried about the spec changing under them

19:42:44 [shepazu]

... they got burned before with the textflow stuff we changed to please to the browser vendors

19:43:05 [shepazu]

ed: what phase is it in?

19:43:09 [shepazu]

ChrisL: LC

19:43:34 [shepazu]

shepazu: let's move it to CR

19:43:37 [ChrisL]

ended Feb 2008. Next step is CR

19:43:46 [shepazu]

ed: yes, we'll add that to the agenda

19:50:09 [shepazu]

ed: any other topics?

19:50:26 [shepazu]

heycam: I'm going to try to write up some layout stuff to discuss concretely

19:50:56 [shepazu]

ed: do we need to publish more tests for SVG Tiny 1.2?

19:51:24 [shepazu]

heycam: good question, I've been looking at bugs and we do need to make some fixes to the test suite

19:52:22 [Zakim]

-ed

19:53:19 [ed__]

ed__ has joined #svg

19:53:33 [Zakim]

+??P2

19:53:37 [shepazu]

shepazu: we do need more tests, but maybe new implementers can help contribute tests

19:53:41 [ed__]

s/do we need to publish more tests for SVG Tiny 1.2?/do we need to publish another snapshot of (more tests) of the SVG Tiny 1.2 testsuite anytime soon?/

19:54:32 [ed__]

Zakim, ??P2 is me

19:54:32 [Zakim]

+ed__; got it

19:56:08 [shepazu]

shepazu: I think we need to put a priority on 2.5D and other things that we are coordinating with the CSS WG on

19:57:17 [shepazu]

ChrisL: some of the CSS proposals have been checked into CVS

19:57:43 [shepazu]

... Bjoern has remarked that they are underspecified

20:00:18 [shepazu]

ed__: I will put those agenda items on the wiki page

20:00:51 [ed]

ed has joined #svg

20:00:53 [shepazu]

Topic: ISSUE-2181

20:00:59 [ChrisL]

issue-2181?

20:00:59 [trackbot]

ISSUE-2181 -- Look at Solutions for 'filter' Property Conflict with IE Filters -- OPEN

20:00:59 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2181

20:01:08 [Zakim]

-ed__

20:01:25 [shepazu]

ed__: I couldn't find WG discussion about this

20:01:46 [shepazu]

ChrisL: there was discussion on the public lists about this

20:02:34 [shepazu]

[chris summarizes public discussions]

20:02:54 [Zakim]

-ChrisL

20:03:22 [ed__]

ed__ has joined #svg

20:03:41 [Zakim]

+??P0

20:03:51 [ed__]

Zakim, ??P0 is me

20:03:51 [Zakim]

+ed__; got it

20:04:17 [heycam]

http://markmail.org/message/p4qkphrqkhilszxq

20:06:16 [shepazu]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2004Nov/0257.html

20:06:22 [shepazu]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2004Nov/0259.html

20:08:26 [shepazu]

ed_work: we should coordinate with CSS and HCG on this

20:08:38 [shepazu]

shepazu: and the HTML WG

20:09:13 [ed__]

http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/09/08/microsoft-css-vendor-extensions.aspx

20:09:16 [shepazu]

heycam: IE is making changes in IE8, we should look at that

20:09:26 [shepazu]

ed_work: they are now supporting -ms-filter, too, so that's a step in the right direction

20:10:07 [shepazu]

me @ChrisL: can you rejoin?

20:10:30 [ed__]

element.style.filter = "foobar"

20:11:32 [ed__]

some people "detect IE" by checking if element.style.filter is defined

20:12:45 [shepazu]

shepazu: let's talk about this at the f2f

20:12:57 [Zakim]

+ +95249aabb

20:14:54 [shepazu]

ChrisL: my suggestion is that we find out what hackers are doing when using that hack, and give them a better way to do it

20:16:53 [shepazu]

ChrisL: this is not something that happens in a stylesheet, it's a test in script

20:17:59 [ChrisL]

its used to do opacity, and transparency in PNG images. Its only for old versions of IE, too - IE7 and up do PNG correctly

20:18:00 [shepazu]

... and otherwise just hide the filters test when it's only a test

20:19:16 [shepazu]

ed_work: I think your proposal is the best way forward

20:19:18 [shepazu]

... and we could push IE to drop the proprietary filter thing

20:19:25 [shepazu]

Topic: SVG 1.1 Errata

20:20:36 [heycam]

http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/errata/errata.xml#definition-character-cell

20:21:30 [ed__]

http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/errata/errata.xml#currenttranslate-currentscale-nested-svg

20:22:10 [shepazu]

I need to finish all those actions

20:22:34 [shepazu]

ed__: we should set aside time to finish this up at the F2F

20:23:07 [shepazu]

... and publish the errata and SVG1.1 2nd edition

20:23:45 [shepazu]

... it would be nice to have all the errata done before then

20:24:09 [shepazu]

... it would require new tests

20:24:13 [shepazu]

... is that too optimistic

20:24:16 [shepazu]

?

20:24:38 [shepazu]

ChrisL: we've been going through them quickly

20:26:15 [shepazu]

ed__: we could triage them and do some of them in the next version of the spec

20:26:54 [shepazu]

ChrisL: it would be useful to have a 2nd ed, especially where it brings it into line with SVG 1.2

20:27:23 [shepazu]

Topic: SVG Tiny 1.2

20:27:35 [shepazu]

Topic: SVG Tiny 1.2 Errata

20:30:37 [shepazu]

ChrisL: going forward, we should just be use the same syntax for all lists: optional comma, optional space

20:30:52 [shepazu]

shepazu: heycam and I had come to a similar conclusion

20:31:08 [shepazu]

ChrisL: I noted that you wanted to make exception for URIs

20:31:22 [shepazu]

... since they can have commas in them

20:31:29 [shepazu]

... but they can also have spaces

20:31:49 [shepazu]

... so a better solution is simply to require that spaces and commas be escaped

20:32:07 [shepazu]

ed__: should we make this an errata item?

20:32:53 [ed__]

s/errata item?/errata item for SVG 1.1?/

20:33:27 [shepazu]

shepazu: we would be changing conformance criteria for SVG 1.1 UAs?

20:33:46 [shepazu]

ChrisL: yes, but older content would still be conforming

20:36:23 [shepazu]

shepazu: and ASV is less relevant now...

20:36:30 [shepazu]

ChrisL: and has been for some time

20:37:44 [shepazu]

heycam: so this affects the 1.2 errata... it should now say any combination of comma or whitespace

20:38:22 [ChrisL]

s/they can also have/IRIs can also have/

20:39:25 [shepazu]

shepazu: what about viewBox?

20:40:28 [shepazu]

heycam: in the DOM, it's exposed as an animated rect, but in the spec it's a list of numbers, and that it has to have 4 members

20:40:45 [shepazu]

... so it's not an arbitrary list of values

20:41:02 [shepazu]

shepazu: that's also the case for transforms

20:43:12 [ed__]

Proposed resolution: for 1.2T the 'g1', 'g2' and 'glyphname' attributes can be comma-whitespace separated

20:44:49 [shepazu]

heycam: how about using "list of xml names"?

20:45:07 [shepazu]

ChrisL: that wouldn't allow a digit at the beginning

20:45:20 [shepazu]

ed__: list of strings?

20:45:40 [ed__]

for the 'u1' attribute : Comma is the separator character; thus, to kern a comma, specify the comma as part of a range of Unicode characters or as a glyph name using the 'g1' attribute.

20:47:43 [shepazu]

shepazu: but uDOM is typed, which list of string doesn't give us

20:48:44 [heycam]

heycam: we state explicitly in the udom appendix what types different xml attributes are exposed as, so changing the attribute list syntax in use shouldn't affect that

20:48:58 [heycam]

s/in use/in use by a particular attribute/

20:50:00 [heycam]

http://mcc.id.au/temp/2009/font-name-list-syntax.svg

20:50:04 [shepazu]

shepazu: I'd like to check that this is okay with SVG 1.1 implementers

20:50:33 [shepazu]

heycam: we could start by compiling a list of affected attributes

20:50:40 [shepazu]

ChrisL: agreed

20:57:32 [shepazu]

shepazu: smil semicolon-separated values are essentially lists of lists; that could be a datatype

21:00:12 [shepazu]

we will propose changing values in SVG 1.1 to use a uniform list style, research what changes this would entail, and get feedback from SVG 1.1 implementers

21:02:02 [shepazu]

Resolution: we will propose changing values in SVG 1.1 to use a uniform list style, research what changes this would entail, and get feedback from SVG 1.1 implementers

21:03:07 [Zakim]

- +95249aabb

21:03:08 [Zakim]

-heycam

21:03:09 [Zakim]

-ed__

21:03:16 [shepazu]

trackbot, end telcon

21:03:16 [trackbot]

Zakim, list attendees

21:03:16 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been Shepazu, ChrisL, ed, [IPcaller], heycam, Shepazu.a, +39.524.9.aaaa, ed__, +95249aabb

21:03:17 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, please draft minutes

21:03:17 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-svg-minutes.html trackbot

21:03:18 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, bye

21:03:18 [RRSAgent]

I see no action items