15:55:18 RRSAgent has joined #rdfa 15:55:18 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-irc 15:55:24 Zakim has joined #rdfa 15:55:31 zakim, this will be rdfa 15:55:31 ok, msporny; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes 15:55:40 Scribe: Manu_Sporny 15:55:50 ScribeNick: msporny 15:56:02 Meeting: RDF in XHTML 1.0 Task Force 15:56:10 Chair: Ben_Adida 15:56:44 rrsagent, make log public 15:56:50 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:56:50 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html msporny 15:56:51 hey people, Happy New Year everybody! will be with you in ca. 5min 15:57:07 Happy new Year Michael! :) 15:58:38 ShaneM has joined #rdfa 15:59:43 SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started 15:59:51 +McCarron 15:59:56 +Ralph 16:00:05 zakim, mccarron is ShaneM 16:00:08 +ShaneM; got it 16:02:15 previous call running late... 16:02:41 +??P58 16:02:46 zakim, I am ??P58 16:02:46 +msporny; got it 16:03:05 +??P62 16:03:22 zakim, ??p62 is Michael 16:03:22 +Michael; got it 16:03:35 zakim, Michael is DrMichael 16:03:35 +DrMichael; got it 16:04:14 Present: Ralph_Swick, Dr_Michael_Hausenblas, Manu_Sporny, Shane_McCarron, Ben_Adida 16:04:21 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:04:21 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html msporny 16:05:21 Topic: Action Items 16:05:53 benadida has joined #rdfa 16:06:00 +Ben_Adida 16:06:11 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Jan/0022.html 16:06:13 Chair: Ben 16:06:14 Present+ Ben_Adida 16:06:35 Previous: 2008-12-18 http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-rdfa-irc 16:06:49 zakim, who is on the phone 16:06:49 I don't understand 'who is on the phone', benadida 16:06:55 zakim, who is on the call? 16:06:55 On the phone I see ShaneM, Ralph, msporny, DrMichael, Ben_Adida 16:06:55 s/-irc/-minutes 16:07:32 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph 16:08:53 zakim, code? 16:08:54 the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck 16:09:52 we do not use that namespac 16:09:55 + +0208761aaaa 16:10:02 zakim, i am aaaa 16:10:02 +markbirbeck; got it 16:10:42 Topic: RDFa NS URL 16:10:48 it is pointed to from the xhtml namespace document 16:10:55 Ralph: It is up there, somewhere - the XHTML namespace document points to it. 16:11:07 Ralph: Where is http://www.w3.org/ns/rdfa/ used? 16:11:19 ShaneM: It shouldn't be circulating, nothing should point to it. 16:12:47 http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/ 16:13:25 http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/Overview.xhtml 16:13:29 (2 days younger) 16:13:40 http://www.w3.org/2008/07/rdfa-xslt 16:13:58 ShaneM: Ralph/Steven or I will fix this. 16:14:27 ShaneM: The contents of both those documents should be exactly the same. 16:14:29 ACTION: fix the .htaccess for the XHTML namespace 16:14:29 Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel 16:14:42 Topic: Action Items 16:15:03 trackbot, bye 16:15:03 trackbot has left #rdfa 16:17:02 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph 16:18:47 action items --> http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-rdfa-minutes.html#ActionSummary 16:19:25 ACTION: Mark to review reasoning on setting explicit about="" on HEAD and BODY [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-rdfa-irc] 16:19:37 -- continues 16:20:04 ACTION: Ben to add public-rdfa examples to wiki and think of slightly improved top-level organization [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action11] 16:20:07 -- continues 16:20:15 ACTION: Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa" with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] 16:20:25 -- continues 16:20:38 ACTION: Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once the NS URI is set up. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03] 16:20:40 -- continues 16:20:48 ACTION: Manu talk with Jamie McCarthy about an AskSlashdot piece [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action04] 16:20:58 -- continues 16:21:04 ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases for Ivan. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09] 16:21:06 -- continues 16:21:13 ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action11] 16:21:16 -- continues 16:21:22 ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] 16:21:25 -- continues 16:21:31 ACTION: Mark to send Ben ubiquity related wizard stuff [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11] 16:21:33 -- continues 16:21:42 ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13] 16:21:45 -- continues 16:21:51 ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14] 16:22:02 http://semanticweb.org/wiki/Microformats_in_RDF 16:25:58 Manu: 2 parts 16:26:20 ... part 2 is "If I've already setup my page to use hCard, how do I switch to RDFa?" 16:26:24 Michael: split it into two parts (how and differences) 16:27:54 -- continues 16:28:14 Manu: Perhaps we need something that shows general differences between uF and RDFa, and then gives specific examples. 16:28:29 ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15] 16:28:31 -- continues 16:28:34 Topic: Test Cases 16:28:39 scribenick: benadida 16:28:54 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Jan/0016.html 16:29:38 Manu: the issue tested here is with suffix-less CURIEs, e.g. "example:" 16:29:55 s/.html/.html Test Case #121: "[prefix:]" CURIE format is valid 16:30:02 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph 16:30:20 ... CURIE still expands, empty-string as suffix. 16:30:37 +1 16:30:38 +1 16:30:44 +1 16:31:06 RESOLVED: test case 121 suffix-less CURIE approved 16:31:15 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Jan/0017.html 16:31:25 s/.html/.html Test Case #122: "[:]" CURIE format is valid 16:33:12 +1 16:33:13 +1 16:33:16 +1 16:33:16 +1 16:33:23 +1 16:33:27 +1 16:33:30 RESOLVED: test case 122 prefix and suffix-less CURIE [:] 16:33:40 RESOLVED: test case 122 prefix and suffix-less CURIE [:] approved 16:33:43 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Jan/0018.html 16:33:53 s/.html/.html Test Case #123: "[]" is a valid safe CURIE 16:34:13 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Jan/0026.html 16:34:42 about="[foo]" 16:34:48 Manu: the current consensus is that the subject is http://example.org/ 16:34:49 about="[]" 16:35:09 Manu: "[foo]" is an invalid CURIE, therefore so should be the empty string 16:35:28 ... as neither is in the reserved (XHTML) list 16:35:36 # the mapping to use when there is no prefix is not defined, which effectively prohibits the use of CURIEs that do not contain a colon; 16:35:48 scribenick: Ralph 16:36:16 Ben: did we define CURIES to require a prefix in RDFa? 16:36:17 Mark: yes 16:36:32 ... wasn't my preference, but it was a long discussion 16:36:49 Ben: considering consistency w.r.t. reserved words 16:37:05 ... this is the first instance where an invalid value actually changes the structure 16:37:19 Mark: and Ivan pointed out the same thing occurs with @about="[foo]" 16:37:33 Shane: right; @about="[foo]" should not change the subject 16:37:46 Ben: but the presence of @rel alters the graph structure even if the CURIE is not valid 16:37:58 ... however in this case it's acting as if @about was not present 16:38:33 ... however, since @about just changes the subject and doesn't by itself generates triples, maybe this is OK 16:38:59 Mark: it's clear that this is the current spec. We could discuss whether this is the most desireable choice. 16:39:27 Ben: so if it's not a valid CURIE value, the behavior is as if @about were not there 16:39:50 Mark: the alternative discussed was to assume the invalid CURIE was in the local document namespace 16:39:56 ... and we liked that less 16:40:13 Ben: the discussion is about the subject; some triple has to be generated, and the spec is clear 16:40:29 Mark: however, as you note @rel="[foo]" does do some work 16:40:58 Ben: rephrasing, what is the alternative when an invalid CURIE is found? 16:41:05 ... it would seem wrong to drop the triple entirely 16:41:26 ... whereas it's more reasonable to drop the triple in @rel="[foo]" 16:41:42 ... so I don't see a better alternative for @about="[foo]" without major changes to CURIE 16:42:14 ... I'm satisfied with this conclusion 16:42:28 Mark: the test case seems to be unnecessarily nested 16:42:38 Manu: yeah, probably; it went through several iterations 16:42:47 Mark: the middle DIV could probably be dropped 16:43:04 ... you only need the first one 16:43:35 Manu: yeah, it appears the
could be dropped 16:43:48 ... the correct SPARQL should be ... 16:44:26 Shane: do you agree, Mark, that the same rules apply to @resource, @href, @src? 16:44:33 Ben: only @resource uses SafeCURIE 16:44:48 Here's the updated case: 16:44:52 ---------------------Test Case 123 XHTML-------------------------- 16:44:52 16:44:52 "http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/DTD/xhtml-rdfa-1.dtd"> 16:44:52 xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"> 16:44:55 16:44:56 Test Case 0123 16:44:59 16:45:01 16:45:02

16:45:05 Test Case 0123 16:45:06 checks to make sure RDFa processors resolve the empty 16:45:09 CURIE correctly. 16:45:11

16:45:13
16:45:15 Shane McCarron 16:45:16 contributed to this test. 16:45:19
16:45:20
16:45:22

16:45:24 16:45:27 16:45:29 ----------------------------------------------------------------- 16:45:31 ---------------------Test Case 123 SPARQL ----------------------- 16:45:33 ASK WHERE { 16:45:34 16:45:37 16:45:38 "Test Case 0123" . 16:45:40 Shane: assuming that it is possible to create an illegal URI then the general rule would hold that an illegal URI is ignored 16:45:41 16:45:42 16:45:45 "Shane McCarron" . 16:45:47 } 16:45:49 ---------------------------------------------------------------- 16:45:51 Mark: yeah 16:45:52 more corrections: 16:45:57 Shane: @href and @src? 16:46:07 scribenick: benadida 16:46:07 sorry ralph 16:46:09 ---------------------Test Case 123 XHTML-------------------------- 16:46:09 16:46:09 "http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/DTD/xhtml-rdfa-1.dtd"> 16:46:09 xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"> 16:46:12 16:46:14 Test Case 0123 16:46:15 16:46:17 16:46:19

16:46:22 Test Case 0123 16:46:24 checks to make sure RDFa processors resolve the empty 16:46:25 CURIE correctly. 16:46:28

16:46:30 Shane McCarron 16:46:31 contributed to this test. 16:46:33
16:46:36

16:46:38 16:46:40 16:46:42 ----------------------------------------------------------------- 16:46:44 ---------------------Test Case 123 SPARQL ----------------------- 16:46:46 ASK WHERE { 16:46:47 16:46:50 16:46:52 "Test Case 0123" . 16:46:54 16:46:56 16:46:57 "Shane McCarron" . 16:46:59 } 16:47:03 ---------------------------------------------------------------- 16:47:14 Shane: @href and @src are evaluated the same way 16:47:20 +1 16:47:23 +1 16:47:23 Ben: +1 16:47:24 +1 16:47:40 RESOLVED: test case 123 with [] invalid CURIE approved 16:48:47 +1 16:49:05 -DrMichael 16:49:22 +1, though recommend changing the SPAN content to give a semantically less confusing title 16:50:27 Action: Manu to create TC to test @resource="[]" does not set object based on TC 123. 16:51:14 Topic: comment from december about test suite: 16:52:42 scribenick: msporny 16:53:07 ACTION: Manu to look at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Dec/0037.html 16:53:07 Manu: Didn't have time to look at it in depth. 16:54:05 consensus from dec 4th: 16:54:06 so I think we have consensus about @prefix='p1=u1 p2=u2 ...' 16:54:07 ... and that @prefix='=u1' seems not to have value 16:54:07 ... and @prefix='u1' may have value and should be further investigated 16:54:11 --> http://www.w3.org/2008/12/04-rdfa-minutes.html#ActionSummary 16:54:12 Topic: keyword bundles and HTML4-compatible RDFa 16:55:05 benadida: We agree that there needs to be some non-xml based approach to declare namespaces. Should it be called @prefix? 16:55:14 s/ActionSummary/item02 16:55:19 benadida: We need to make that decision. 16:55:31 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph 16:56:08 benadida: We should confirm the idea that a "with" statement is not useful. We drop the idea of @prefix="=u1". 16:56:42 benadida: If we want to provide bundles, are they bundles of reserved words, or more involved transformations. 16:57:19 markbirbeck: I don't think we finalized whether the syntax within the attribute is "a=b" or "a:b" or something else. 16:58:21 markbirbeck: If it is some sort of transformation, it would be a set of transformations defined using RDF. 16:58:31 markbirbeck: Fresnel is one example of this approach. 16:58:57 markbirbeck: Transformations are out of scope in a way, we don't need to overload the RDFa parsing algorithm. 16:59:39 benadida: Do you have a draft of your deeper thoughts about this issue? 17:00:03 markbirbeck: I'm a bit weary of discussing this off-list, prefer to have the discussion in the public. 17:00:22 markbirbeck: We're keen to address the issue 17:00:33 benadida: I agree. 17:01:09 markbirbeck: I like "keyword bundle" 17:02:05 benadida: It would be good to see how all this stuff plays together. 17:02:40 ShaneM: These should be two separate topics. @prefix is one, keyword bundles is the other. 17:03:11 benadida: Any other decisions that we need to make that are missing? 17:03:30 markbirbeck: there isn't any particular reason that we couldn't end up with two more attributes. 17:03:50 markbirbeck: We could agree on @prefix and get that done. 17:04:12 markbirbeck: @token and keyword bundles could use another attribute. 17:04:19 markbirbeck: and it could come later. 17:04:46 oooh - we could introduce curie-xxx attributes just to irritate people in the tag 17:04:55 @token would be used to specify these values at run-time. 17:05:10 server-curie-xx 17:05:34 s/people in the tag/people in the tag (that was sarcasm!)/ 17:05:50 benadida: We do have a proposal on the table for @prefix, prefix="p1=u1 p2=u2" 17:06:40 markbirbeck: There are some benefits to have @prefix in the HEAD - it could be argued that it should apply in the BODY. 17:07:35 ShaneM: Didn't we talk about using LINK to specify that? 17:07:50 markbirbeck: Yes, or we could extend it in some other way - a new element or attribute. 17:08:24 I agree that having prefix / keyword bundles in the head that apply to the entire document makes sense. 17:08:42 Ben: regrets for 22 Jan 17:08:54 next meeting: 22 Jan 17:09:03 -ShaneM 17:09:04 -markbirbeck 17:09:04 -Ben_Adida 17:09:13 -Ralph 17:09:14 SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended 17:09:15 Attendees were Ralph, ShaneM, msporny, DrMichael, Ben_Adida, +0208761aaaa, markbirbeck 17:09:22 zakim, bye 17:09:22 Zakim has left #rdfa 17:09:27 rrsagent, please draft minutes 17:09:27 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph 17:16:33 ShaneM has left #rdfa 17:21:22 ShaneM has joined #rdfa 17:42:04 ShaneM has left #rdfa 18:08:01 rrsagent, bye 18:08:01 I see 15 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-actions.rdf : 18:08:01 ACTION: fix the .htaccess for the XHTML namespace [1] 18:08:01 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-irc#T16-14-29 18:08:01 ACTION: Mark to review reasoning on setting explicit about="" on HEAD and BODY [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-rdfa-irc] [2] 18:08:01 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-irc#T16-19-25 18:08:01 ACTION: Ben to add public-rdfa examples to wiki and think of slightly improved top-level organization [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action11] [3] 18:08:01 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-irc#T16-20-04 18:08:01 ACTION: Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa" with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] [4] 18:08:01 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-irc#T16-20-15 18:08:01 ACTION: Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once the NS URI is set up. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03] [5] 18:08:01 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-irc#T16-20-38 18:08:01 ACTION: Manu talk with Jamie McCarthy about an AskSlashdot piece [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action04] [6] 18:08:01 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-irc#T16-20-48 18:08:01 ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases for Ivan. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09] [7] 18:08:01 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-irc#T16-21-04 18:08:01 ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action11] [8] 18:08:01 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-irc#T16-21-13 18:08:01 ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] [9] 18:08:01 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-irc#T16-21-22 18:08:01 ACTION: Mark to send Ben ubiquity related wizard stuff [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11] [10] 18:08:01 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-irc#T16-21-31 18:08:01 ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13] [11] 18:08:01 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-irc#T16-21-42 18:08:01 ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14] [12] 18:08:01 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-irc#T16-21-51 18:08:01 ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15] [13] 18:08:01 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-irc#T16-28-29 18:08:01 ACTION: Manu to create TC to test @resource="[]" does not set object based on TC 123. [14] 18:08:01 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-irc#T16-50-27 18:08:01 ACTION: Manu to look at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Dec/0037.html [15] 18:08:01 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-irc#T16-53-07