IRC log of css on 2009-01-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:52:25 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #css

16:52:25 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/01/07-css-irc

16:52:31 [glazou]

Zakim, this will be Style

16:52:31 [Zakim]

ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 8 minutes

16:56:58 [Zakim]

Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started

16:57:06 [Zakim]

+ +95089aaaa

16:57:25 [glazou]

Zakim, +095089aaaa is me

16:57:25 [Zakim]

sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named '+095089aaaa'

16:57:39 [glazou]

Zakim, +aaaa is me

16:57:39 [Zakim]

sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named '+aaaa'

16:58:39 [fantasai]

fantasai has joined #css

16:58:45 [glazou]

Zakim, you give me heaadaches

16:58:45 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'you give me heaadaches', glazou

16:59:31 [Zakim]

+ +1.408.398.aabb

16:59:52 [Zakim]

+ +1.858.354.aacc

16:59:59 [dsinger]

zakim, 398.aabb is dsinger

16:59:59 [Zakim]

sorry, dsinger, I do not recognize a party named '398.aabb'

17:00:06 [plinss]

zakim, +1.858.354 is me

17:00:07 [Zakim]

+plinss; got it

17:00:19 [dsinger]

zakim +1.408.398.aabb is dsinger

17:00:43 [dsinger]

zakim, +1.408.398.aabb is dsinger

17:00:45 [Zakim]

+dsinger; got it

17:00:55 [glazou]

Zakim, +095089aaaa is me

17:00:56 [ChrisL]

ChrisL has joined #css

17:00:56 [Zakim]

sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named '+095089aaaa'

17:01:18 [dsinger]

zakim, who is on the phone?

17:01:21 [glazou]

ChrisL: do you master Zakim ?

17:01:22 [Zakim]

On the phone I see +95089aaaa, dsinger, plinss

17:01:31 [plinss]

zakim, +095089 is glazou

17:01:31 [Zakim]

sorry, plinss, I do not recognize a party named '+095089'

17:01:33 [ChrisL]

yes, why?

17:01:41 [glazou]

can you make it know +095089aaaa is me ?

17:01:45 [glazou]

I can't

17:01:49 [ChrisL]

zakim, +95 is glazou

17:01:49 [Zakim]

+glazou; got it

17:01:54 [dsinger]

dave is muted as he is on a bus

17:01:56 [glazou]

D'OH !!!!

17:02:00 [glazou]

thanks ChrisL

17:02:00 [Zakim]

+ +1.415.920.aadd

17:02:04 [Zakim]

+[Microsoft]

17:02:16 [fantasai]

Zakim, +1.415 is fantasai

17:02:16 [Zakim]

+fantasai; got it

17:02:38 [ChrisL]

that syntax works despite being wrong - number is probably +33 95....

17:02:51 [glazou]

plinss: I started filling an attendance table for good standing

17:02:55 [sylvaing]

sylvaing has joined #css

17:03:02 [ChrisL]

zakim, code?

17:03:02 [Zakim]

the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), ChrisL

17:03:05 [plinss]

great

17:03:08 [Zakim]

+Bert

17:03:27 [Zakim]

+ChrisL

17:03:48 [dbaron]

dbaron has joined #css

17:04:05 [Zakim]

+[Mozilla]

17:04:18 [dbaron]

Zakim, [Mozilla] has David_Baron

17:04:18 [Zakim]

+David_Baron; got it

17:04:35 [Zakim]

+ +47.21.65.aaee

17:04:41 [dbaron]

Zakim, aaee is howcome

17:04:43 [Zakim]

+howcome; got it

17:04:50 [dbaron]

Zakim, who is on the phone?

17:04:50 [Zakim]

On the phone I see glazou, dsinger, plinss, fantasai, [Microsoft], Bert, ChrisL, [Mozilla], howcome

17:04:52 [Zakim]

[Mozilla] has David_Baron

17:04:58 [sylvaing]

Zakim, [Microsoft] has sylvaing

17:04:58 [Zakim]

+sylvaing; got it

17:06:22 [Zakim]

+SteveZ

17:06:34 [ChrisL]

zakim, mute stevez

17:06:34 [Zakim]

SteveZ should now be muted

17:06:40 [dsinger]

zakim, who is noisy?

17:06:52 [Zakim]

dsinger, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (71%), howcome (12%)

17:07:49 [fantasai]

ScribeNick: fantasai

17:08:07 [fantasai]

Daniel: First thing, ... attendance to conference calls and F2Fs

17:08:12 [szilles]

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17:08:31 [fantasai]

Daniel: We said starting with the new charter we start looking at attendance for good/bad standing in the WG

17:08:47 [fantasai]

Daniel: So we start doing this today

17:08:54 [glazou]

http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/issues/63

17:08:56 [fantasai]

Daniel: First technical item is background shorthand

17:09:07 [krijnh]

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17:09:31 [fantasai]

fantasai: I think the only proposal we had so far was to remove the slash in background-color

17:09:41 [glazou]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Sep/0142.html

17:09:51 [fantasai]

dbaron: There are two uses of slash in the background shorthand.

17:10:05 [fantasai]

dbaron: The first case is that a slash separates the bgcolor and fallback color

17:10:21 [fantasai]

dbaron: The other use is the slash indicates background-size

17:10:49 [fantasai]

dbaron: When you're parsing and you get a slash, you don't know whether you're going to get a background-size or background-color

17:11:28 [fantasai]

dbaron: one option is to require background-size to come after a particular property, such as background-position

17:11:40 [fantasai]

fantasai: problem with that is that I expect people will use background-size a lot without background-position

17:12:34 [szilles_]

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17:13:19 [fantasai]

fantasai: The simplest thing would be to remove the slash in background-color, but that would make it harder to read and would require writing 'transparent' every time you just want a fallback

17:13:43 [fantasai]

Bert: Anne also suggested using parentheses for background-size

17:13:44 [dbaron]

One other proposal is to replace the symbol '/' with the keyword 'size' in the shorthand.

17:14:21 [dbaron]

sylvaing: A functional notation for the value in the shorthand?

17:14:23 [fantasai]

fantasai: we wanted to avoid using parens where grouping isn't required

17:17:49 [fantasai]

discussion of shorthand syntax conventions

17:17:55 [fantasai]

and why functional notation is inconsistent with them

17:19:00 [Bert]

Five proposals so fat, I think: (1) keep slash, but require size to follow position (and fallback color to follow color); (2) no slash between colors; (3) parentheses around size; (4) keyword 'size' before position; (5) use size(w, h).

17:19:31 [howcome]

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17:21:19 [fantasai]

ChrisL: If the keyword is there in the shorthand, it should be present in the property as well

17:21:34 [fantasai]

background-size: size 40em 20em;

17:21:37 [fantasai]

That looks weird

17:21:39 [fantasai]

and redundant

17:22:00 [glazou]

background-size: size(40em, 20em) is what eh meant

17:22:02 [glazou]

he

17:22:06 [fantasai]

ah

17:22:18 [ChrisL]

yes, but it would keep the shorthand and the individual property taking the same syntax

17:22:29 [glazou]

ChrisL: yes but ugly

17:23:01 [fantasai]

Bert: I think I'm favoring having no slash in the color

17:23:27 [fantasai]

background-color: transparent white;

17:23:33 [fantasai]

background: ..... transparent white;

17:23:45 [fantasai]

vs

17:23:50 [fantasai]

background-color: / white;

17:23:55 [fantasai]

background: .... / white;

17:24:04 [dsinger]

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17:24:22 [fantasai]

background: url(pattern.png) / white;

17:24:35 [fantasai]

background: url(pattern.png) transparent / white;

17:25:02 [fantasai]

Daniel asks if 2-token lookahead is really a problem for everyone

17:25:21 [Zakim]

+ +1.408.996.aaff

17:25:28 [Zakim]

-dsinger

17:25:39 [dbaron]

Zakim, aaff is dsinger

17:25:39 [Zakim]

+dsinger; got it

17:25:54 [dsinger]

zakim, +1.408.996.aaff is [Apple]

17:25:54 [Zakim]

sorry, dsinger, I do not recognize a party named '+1.408.996.aaff'

17:26:12 [ChrisL]

no objection

17:26:13 [fantasai]

dbaron explains that he'd rather reuse code for parsing the property rather than having to rewrite that code in the shorthand parsing function

17:26:14 [dsinger]

zakim, dsinger is [Apple]

17:26:14 [Zakim]

+[Apple]; got it

17:26:20 [dsinger]

zakim, [Apple] has dsinger

17:26:20 [Zakim]

+dsinger; got it

17:26:22 [fantasai]

Daniel proposes going with 2) remove slash

17:26:41 [dbaron]

(2) is fine with me

17:27:28 [fantasai]

RESOLVED: remove slash

17:27:34 [glazou]

http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/issues/74

17:28:18 [dsinger]

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17:28:59 [fantasai]

Options are, either every comma-separated property determines the number of layers (highest wins); or only background-image defines the number of layers

17:31:05 [fantasai]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Dec/0087.html

17:31:21 [fantasai]

Daniel: Apple has implemented the multiple-property approache

17:31:46 [fantasai]

fantasai: I think the single-property approach would be less confusing and less likely to introduce unintended effects through the cascade.

17:31:47 [glazou]

Daniel,David, Bert favor the bg-image approach

17:31:58 [fantasai]

fantasai: I asked Molly and Jason and they also think that would be less confusing for authors

17:32:19 [dbaron]

I'm trying to figure out if we discussed this in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2004OctDec/0123.html

17:32:22 [fantasai]

sylvain: no opinion

17:32:33 [dbaron]

... or http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2004OctDec/0129.html

17:32:45 [fantasai]

sylvain: I like fantasai's solution, but I haven't thought about it enough to have a strong opinion

17:33:50 [fantasai]

NOTED: Working Group favors background-image solution, waiting for Apple's response since they have implemented the other solution already.

17:33:50 [glazou]

I hear nothing

17:33:53 [glazou]

can you hear me ?

17:34:11 [glazou]

ok

17:34:16 [Bert]

zakim, pointer?

17:34:16 [Zakim]

I don't understand your question, Bert.

17:34:24 [dbaron]

RRSAgent, pointer?

17:34:24 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2009/01/07-css-irc#T17-34-24

17:34:28 [ChrisL]

rrsagent, here

17:34:28 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2009/01/07-css-irc#T17-34-28

17:34:44 [fantasai]

fantasai: I think that in terms of backwards compatibility, I think very few people would be taking advantage of the fact that properties other than background-image increase the number of layers in Safari

17:35:09 [Zakim]

+Daniel_Glazman

17:35:57 [glazou]

http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-91

17:35:57 [fantasai]

Daniel: That issue deferred to next week, or sooner if Apple replies on the mailing list

17:36:03 [fantasai]

Topic: CSS2.1

17:37:00 [dbaron]

I wonder whether Hixie has an opinion on this issue (issue 91)...

17:38:44 [fantasai]

<span style="white-space: nowrap">text </span> text2

17:39:06 [fantasai]

is there a break opportunity between text and text2?

17:39:08 [fantasai]

that's the question

17:40:08 [dbaron]

I don't think the testcase thtree lines up is all that contrived

17:40:38 [fantasai]

In CSS3 there will most likely be a value that removes all whitespace, so whatever answer we want should match the behavior there

17:41:24 [fantasai]

(in the example above the second space gets dropped)

17:42:52 [fantasai]

Rendered text there is "text text2"

17:43:26 [Bert]

(I think the collapsing affects how far apart the two words are, but there are conceptually still two word separators and one of them allows lines to break...)

17:44:49 [ChrisL]

so its not *removal* of ws, but not rendering it (or rendering as a zero-width space?)

17:45:52 [fantasai]

Daniel: Sounds consistent with fantasai's proposal.

17:45:59 [sylvaing]

no objection

17:46:01 [fantasai]

Daniel: Should we accept? Any objections?

17:46:05 [fantasai]

RESOLVED: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Dec/0075.html accepted

17:46:31 [glazou]

http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-92

17:46:48 [glazou]

http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-95

17:47:31 [fantasai]

http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/page.html#oversized-page-box

17:47:52 [fantasai]

These two sections (13.2.1.1 and 13.2.1.2) can't exist in 2.1 because we removed the size property

17:47:56 [fantasai]

so we should just remove those sections

17:48:06 [fantasai]

RESOLVED: remove

17:48:34 [ChrisL]

rrsagent, here

17:48:34 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2009/01/07-css-irc#T17-48-34

17:49:00 [glazou]

http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-box/#flow-root

17:49:00 [ChrisL]

rrsagent, make logs public

17:49:38 [fantasai]

Topic: Flow Roots

17:49:53 [fantasai]

fantasai: flow roots are just a new name for block formatting context roots

17:50:15 [fantasai]

Bert: I thought that "element that introduces a block formatting context" was a bit long

17:50:29 [ChrisL]

:)

17:50:36 [fantasai]

howcome: The problem I'm trying to solve is that in multicolumn layout, a float is relative to the column box

17:50:53 [fantasai]

howcome: But I don't think each column box should be a containing block, e.g. for positioned content

17:51:38 [fantasai]

dbaron: The column box is a containing block. The width of elements inside the column, for example, are calculated wrt the column box

17:52:31 [fantasai]

fantasai: the abspos containing block can be the multicolumn box, and is in your spec

17:52:53 [fantasai]

dbaron: The column box shouldn't be considered to be relatively positioned.

17:53:03 [fantasai]

howcome: So it doesn't create a reference for abspos.

17:53:07 [fantasai]

dbaron: yeah

17:53:16 [fantasai]

howcome: Ok, that helps.

17:53:39 [fantasai]

Topic: rem unit

17:54:01 [fantasai]

howcome: Should it be rem, or rm, or something else?

17:54:09 [fantasai]

fantasai: rem sounds good to me

17:54:11 [Bert]

deg = 3 letetrs...

17:54:19 [fantasai]

howcome: the other units are two units

17:54:49 [fantasai]

howcome: if people like rem, I'll keep that

17:54:50 [Bert]

s/two units/two letters/

17:54:58 [fantasai]

RESOLVED: rem

17:55:16 [fantasai]

dbaron: I have another issue with rem

17:55:23 [fantasai]

dbaron: Interaction with SVG resource documents

17:55:31 [Bert]

s/letetrs/letters/

17:55:33 [fantasai]

dbaron: I think it needs to the root of the root document

17:55:38 [fantasai]

dbaron: we might want to postpone this

17:56:44 [fantasai]

http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-96

17:56:51 [fantasai]

if people feel that needs discussion, then discuss

17:56:57 [fantasai]

I thought it was pretty obviously an error

17:57:08 [fantasai]

RESOLVED: it's an error, fix it

17:57:24 [fantasai]

dbaron: Might want to say "of the block box"

17:57:30 [fantasai]

dbaron: just to be more specific

17:58:47 [fantasai]

Meeting closed.

17:58:48 [dsinger]

cheers

17:58:48 [Zakim]

-[Mozilla]

17:58:49 [Zakim]

-ChrisL

17:58:50 [Zakim]

-[Microsoft]

17:58:52 [Zakim]

-howcome

17:58:54 [glazou]

bye

17:58:55 [Zakim]

-SteveZ

17:58:56 [Zakim]

-plinss

17:58:58 [Zakim]

-[Apple]

17:59:00 [Zakim]

-fantasai

17:59:03 [Zakim]

-Daniel_Glazman

17:59:05 [Zakim]

-Bert

18:05:01 [Zakim]

disconnecting the lone participant, glazou, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM

18:05:02 [Zakim]

Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended

18:05:04 [Zakim]

Attendees were +95089aaaa, +1.858.354.aacc, plinss, glazou, +1.415.920.aadd, fantasai, Bert, ChrisL, David_Baron, +47.21.65.aaee, howcome, sylvaing, SteveZ, +1.408.996.aaff,

18:05:07 [Zakim]

... dsinger, Daniel_Glazman

19:09:55 [krijnh]

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20:31:44 [fantasai]

howcome: btw, thanks for handling the minutes for Dec 10th!

20:39:31 [Bert_]

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20:47:25 [fantasai]

RRSAgent: here

20:47:25 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2009/01/07-css-irc#T20-47-25

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