IRC log of css on 2009-01-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:52:25 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #css
16:52:25 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/01/07-css-irc
16:52:31 [glazou]
Zakim, this will be Style
16:52:31 [Zakim]
ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
16:56:58 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
16:57:06 [Zakim]
+ +95089aaaa
16:57:25 [glazou]
Zakim, +095089aaaa is me
16:57:25 [Zakim]
sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named '+095089aaaa'
16:57:39 [glazou]
Zakim, +aaaa is me
16:57:39 [Zakim]
sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named '+aaaa'
16:58:39 [fantasai]
fantasai has joined #css
16:58:45 [glazou]
Zakim, you give me heaadaches
16:58:45 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'you give me heaadaches', glazou
16:59:31 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.398.aabb
16:59:52 [Zakim]
+ +1.858.354.aacc
16:59:59 [dsinger]
zakim, 398.aabb is dsinger
16:59:59 [Zakim]
sorry, dsinger, I do not recognize a party named '398.aabb'
17:00:06 [plinss]
zakim, +1.858.354 is me
17:00:07 [Zakim]
+plinss; got it
17:00:19 [dsinger]
zakim +1.408.398.aabb is dsinger
17:00:43 [dsinger]
zakim, +1.408.398.aabb is dsinger
17:00:45 [Zakim]
+dsinger; got it
17:00:55 [glazou]
Zakim, +095089aaaa is me
17:00:56 [ChrisL]
ChrisL has joined #css
17:00:56 [Zakim]
sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named '+095089aaaa'
17:01:18 [dsinger]
zakim, who is on the phone?
17:01:21 [glazou]
ChrisL: do you master Zakim ?
17:01:22 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +95089aaaa, dsinger, plinss
17:01:31 [plinss]
zakim, +095089 is glazou
17:01:31 [Zakim]
sorry, plinss, I do not recognize a party named '+095089'
17:01:33 [ChrisL]
yes, why?
17:01:41 [glazou]
can you make it know +095089aaaa is me ?
17:01:45 [glazou]
I can't
17:01:49 [ChrisL]
zakim, +95 is glazou
17:01:49 [Zakim]
+glazou; got it
17:01:54 [dsinger]
dave is muted as he is on a bus
17:01:56 [glazou]
D'OH !!!!
17:02:00 [glazou]
thanks ChrisL
17:02:00 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.920.aadd
17:02:04 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
17:02:16 [fantasai]
Zakim, +1.415 is fantasai
17:02:16 [Zakim]
+fantasai; got it
17:02:38 [ChrisL]
that syntax works despite being wrong - number is probably +33 95....
17:02:51 [glazou]
plinss: I started filling an attendance table for good standing
17:02:55 [sylvaing]
sylvaing has joined #css
17:03:02 [ChrisL]
zakim, code?
17:03:02 [Zakim]
the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), ChrisL
17:03:05 [plinss]
great
17:03:08 [Zakim]
+Bert
17:03:27 [Zakim]
+ChrisL
17:03:48 [dbaron]
dbaron has joined #css
17:04:05 [Zakim]
+[Mozilla]
17:04:18 [dbaron]
Zakim, [Mozilla] has David_Baron
17:04:18 [Zakim]
+David_Baron; got it
17:04:35 [Zakim]
+ +47.21.65.aaee
17:04:41 [dbaron]
Zakim, aaee is howcome
17:04:43 [Zakim]
+howcome; got it
17:04:50 [dbaron]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
17:04:50 [Zakim]
On the phone I see glazou, dsinger, plinss, fantasai, [Microsoft], Bert, ChrisL, [Mozilla], howcome
17:04:52 [Zakim]
[Mozilla] has David_Baron
17:04:58 [sylvaing]
Zakim, [Microsoft] has sylvaing
17:04:58 [Zakim]
+sylvaing; got it
17:06:22 [Zakim]
+SteveZ
17:06:34 [ChrisL]
zakim, mute stevez
17:06:34 [Zakim]
SteveZ should now be muted
17:06:40 [dsinger]
zakim, who is noisy?
17:06:52 [Zakim]
dsinger, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (71%), howcome (12%)
17:07:49 [fantasai]
ScribeNick: fantasai
17:08:07 [fantasai]
Daniel: First thing, ... attendance to conference calls and F2Fs
17:08:12 [szilles]
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17:08:31 [fantasai]
Daniel: We said starting with the new charter we start looking at attendance for good/bad standing in the WG
17:08:47 [fantasai]
Daniel: So we start doing this today
17:08:54 [glazou]
http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/issues/63
17:08:56 [fantasai]
Daniel: First technical item is background shorthand
17:09:07 [krijnh]
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17:09:31 [fantasai]
fantasai: I think the only proposal we had so far was to remove the slash in background-color
17:09:41 [glazou]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Sep/0142.html
17:09:51 [fantasai]
dbaron: There are two uses of slash in the background shorthand.
17:10:05 [fantasai]
dbaron: The first case is that a slash separates the bgcolor and fallback color
17:10:21 [fantasai]
dbaron: The other use is the slash indicates background-size
17:10:49 [fantasai]
dbaron: When you're parsing and you get a slash, you don't know whether you're going to get a background-size or background-color
17:11:28 [fantasai]
dbaron: one option is to require background-size to come after a particular property, such as background-position
17:11:40 [fantasai]
fantasai: problem with that is that I expect people will use background-size a lot without background-position
17:12:34 [szilles_]
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17:13:19 [fantasai]
fantasai: The simplest thing would be to remove the slash in background-color, but that would make it harder to read and would require writing 'transparent' every time you just want a fallback
17:13:43 [fantasai]
Bert: Anne also suggested using parentheses for background-size
17:13:44 [dbaron]
One other proposal is to replace the symbol '/' with the keyword 'size' in the shorthand.
17:14:21 [dbaron]
sylvaing: A functional notation for the value in the shorthand?
17:14:23 [fantasai]
fantasai: we wanted to avoid using parens where grouping isn't required
17:17:49 [fantasai]
discussion of shorthand syntax conventions
17:17:55 [fantasai]
and why functional notation is inconsistent with them
17:19:00 [Bert]
Five proposals so fat, I think: (1) keep slash, but require size to follow position (and fallback color to follow color); (2) no slash between colors; (3) parentheses around size; (4) keyword 'size' before position; (5) use size(w, h).
17:19:31 [howcome]
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17:21:19 [fantasai]
ChrisL: If the keyword is there in the shorthand, it should be present in the property as well
17:21:34 [fantasai]
background-size: size 40em 20em;
17:21:37 [fantasai]
That looks weird
17:21:39 [fantasai]
and redundant
17:22:00 [glazou]
background-size: size(40em, 20em) is what eh meant
17:22:02 [glazou]
he
17:22:06 [fantasai]
ah
17:22:18 [ChrisL]
yes, but it would keep the shorthand and the individual property taking the same syntax
17:22:29 [glazou]
ChrisL: yes but ugly
17:23:01 [fantasai]
Bert: I think I'm favoring having no slash in the color
17:23:27 [fantasai]
background-color: transparent white;
17:23:33 [fantasai]
background: ..... transparent white;
17:23:45 [fantasai]
vs
17:23:50 [fantasai]
background-color: / white;
17:23:55 [fantasai]
background: .... / white;
17:24:04 [dsinger]
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17:24:22 [fantasai]
background: url(pattern.png) / white;
17:24:35 [fantasai]
background: url(pattern.png) transparent / white;
17:25:02 [fantasai]
Daniel asks if 2-token lookahead is really a problem for everyone
17:25:21 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.996.aaff
17:25:28 [Zakim]
-dsinger
17:25:39 [dbaron]
Zakim, aaff is dsinger
17:25:39 [Zakim]
+dsinger; got it
17:25:54 [dsinger]
zakim, +1.408.996.aaff is [Apple]
17:25:54 [Zakim]
sorry, dsinger, I do not recognize a party named '+1.408.996.aaff'
17:26:12 [ChrisL]
no objection
17:26:13 [fantasai]
dbaron explains that he'd rather reuse code for parsing the property rather than having to rewrite that code in the shorthand parsing function
17:26:14 [dsinger]
zakim, dsinger is [Apple]
17:26:14 [Zakim]
+[Apple]; got it
17:26:20 [dsinger]
zakim, [Apple] has dsinger
17:26:20 [Zakim]
+dsinger; got it
17:26:22 [fantasai]
Daniel proposes going with 2) remove slash
17:26:41 [dbaron]
(2) is fine with me
17:27:28 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: remove slash
17:27:34 [glazou]
http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/issues/74
17:28:18 [dsinger]
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17:28:59 [fantasai]
Options are, either every comma-separated property determines the number of layers (highest wins); or only background-image defines the number of layers
17:31:05 [fantasai]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Dec/0087.html
17:31:21 [fantasai]
Daniel: Apple has implemented the multiple-property approache
17:31:46 [fantasai]
fantasai: I think the single-property approach would be less confusing and less likely to introduce unintended effects through the cascade.
17:31:47 [glazou]
Daniel,David, Bert favor the bg-image approach
17:31:58 [fantasai]
fantasai: I asked Molly and Jason and they also think that would be less confusing for authors
17:32:19 [dbaron]
I'm trying to figure out if we discussed this in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2004OctDec/0123.html
17:32:22 [fantasai]
sylvain: no opinion
17:32:33 [dbaron]
... or http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2004OctDec/0129.html
17:32:45 [fantasai]
sylvain: I like fantasai's solution, but I haven't thought about it enough to have a strong opinion
17:33:50 [fantasai]
NOTED: Working Group favors background-image solution, waiting for Apple's response since they have implemented the other solution already.
17:33:50 [glazou]
I hear nothing
17:33:53 [glazou]
can you hear me ?
17:34:11 [glazou]
ok
17:34:16 [Bert]
zakim, pointer?
17:34:16 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, Bert.
17:34:24 [dbaron]
RRSAgent, pointer?
17:34:24 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2009/01/07-css-irc#T17-34-24
17:34:28 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, here
17:34:28 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2009/01/07-css-irc#T17-34-28
17:34:44 [fantasai]
fantasai: I think that in terms of backwards compatibility, I think very few people would be taking advantage of the fact that properties other than background-image increase the number of layers in Safari
17:35:09 [Zakim]
+Daniel_Glazman
17:35:57 [glazou]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-91
17:35:57 [fantasai]
Daniel: That issue deferred to next week, or sooner if Apple replies on the mailing list
17:36:03 [fantasai]
Topic: CSS2.1
17:37:00 [dbaron]
I wonder whether Hixie has an opinion on this issue (issue 91)...
17:38:44 [fantasai]
<span style="white-space: nowrap">text </span> text2
17:39:06 [fantasai]
is there a break opportunity between text and text2?
17:39:08 [fantasai]
that's the question
17:40:08 [dbaron]
I don't think the testcase thtree lines up is all that contrived
17:40:38 [fantasai]
In CSS3 there will most likely be a value that removes all whitespace, so whatever answer we want should match the behavior there
17:41:24 [fantasai]
(in the example above the second space gets dropped)
17:42:52 [fantasai]
Rendered text there is "text text2"
17:43:26 [Bert]
(I think the collapsing affects how far apart the two words are, but there are conceptually still two word separators and one of them allows lines to break...)
17:44:49 [ChrisL]
so its not *removal* of ws, but not rendering it (or rendering as a zero-width space?)
17:45:52 [fantasai]
Daniel: Sounds consistent with fantasai's proposal.
17:45:59 [sylvaing]
no objection
17:46:01 [fantasai]
Daniel: Should we accept? Any objections?
17:46:05 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Dec/0075.html accepted
17:46:31 [glazou]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-92
17:46:48 [glazou]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-95
17:47:31 [fantasai]
http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/page.html#oversized-page-box
17:47:52 [fantasai]
These two sections (13.2.1.1 and 13.2.1.2) can't exist in 2.1 because we removed the size property
17:47:56 [fantasai]
so we should just remove those sections
17:48:06 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: remove
17:48:34 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, here
17:48:34 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2009/01/07-css-irc#T17-48-34
17:49:00 [glazou]
http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-box/#flow-root
17:49:00 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, make logs public
17:49:38 [fantasai]
Topic: Flow Roots
17:49:53 [fantasai]
fantasai: flow roots are just a new name for block formatting context roots
17:50:15 [fantasai]
Bert: I thought that "element that introduces a block formatting context" was a bit long
17:50:29 [ChrisL]
:)
17:50:36 [fantasai]
howcome: The problem I'm trying to solve is that in multicolumn layout, a float is relative to the column box
17:50:53 [fantasai]
howcome: But I don't think each column box should be a containing block, e.g. for positioned content
17:51:38 [fantasai]
dbaron: The column box is a containing block. The width of elements inside the column, for example, are calculated wrt the column box
17:52:31 [fantasai]
fantasai: the abspos containing block can be the multicolumn box, and is in your spec
17:52:53 [fantasai]
dbaron: The column box shouldn't be considered to be relatively positioned.
17:53:03 [fantasai]
howcome: So it doesn't create a reference for abspos.
17:53:07 [fantasai]
dbaron: yeah
17:53:16 [fantasai]
howcome: Ok, that helps.
17:53:39 [fantasai]
Topic: rem unit
17:54:01 [fantasai]
howcome: Should it be rem, or rm, or something else?
17:54:09 [fantasai]
fantasai: rem sounds good to me
17:54:11 [Bert]
deg = 3 letetrs...
17:54:19 [fantasai]
howcome: the other units are two units
17:54:49 [fantasai]
howcome: if people like rem, I'll keep that
17:54:50 [Bert]
s/two units/two letters/
17:54:58 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: rem
17:55:16 [fantasai]
dbaron: I have another issue with rem
17:55:23 [fantasai]
dbaron: Interaction with SVG resource documents
17:55:31 [Bert]
s/letetrs/letters/
17:55:33 [fantasai]
dbaron: I think it needs to the root of the root document
17:55:38 [fantasai]
dbaron: we might want to postpone this
17:56:44 [fantasai]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-96
17:56:51 [fantasai]
if people feel that needs discussion, then discuss
17:56:57 [fantasai]
I thought it was pretty obviously an error
17:57:08 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: it's an error, fix it
17:57:24 [fantasai]
dbaron: Might want to say "of the block box"
17:57:30 [fantasai]
dbaron: just to be more specific
17:58:47 [fantasai]
Meeting closed.
17:58:48 [dsinger]
cheers
17:58:48 [Zakim]
-[Mozilla]
17:58:49 [Zakim]
-ChrisL
17:58:50 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft]
17:58:52 [Zakim]
-howcome
17:58:54 [glazou]
bye
17:58:55 [Zakim]
-SteveZ
17:58:56 [Zakim]
-plinss
17:58:58 [Zakim]
-[Apple]
17:59:00 [Zakim]
-fantasai
17:59:03 [Zakim]
-Daniel_Glazman
17:59:05 [Zakim]
-Bert
18:05:01 [Zakim]
disconnecting the lone participant, glazou, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
18:05:02 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
18:05:04 [Zakim]
Attendees were +95089aaaa, +1.858.354.aacc, plinss, glazou, +1.415.920.aadd, fantasai, Bert, ChrisL, David_Baron, +47.21.65.aaee, howcome, sylvaing, SteveZ, +1.408.996.aaff,
18:05:07 [Zakim]
... dsinger, Daniel_Glazman
19:09:55 [krijnh]
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sylvaing has joined #css
19:38:04 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #css
20:31:44 [fantasai]
howcome: btw, thanks for handling the minutes for Dec 10th!
20:39:31 [Bert_]
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20:47:25 [fantasai]
RRSAgent: here
20:47:25 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2009/01/07-css-irc#T20-47-25
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