16:52:25 RRSAgent has joined #css 16:52:25 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/01/07-css-irc 16:52:31 Zakim, this will be Style 16:52:31 ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 8 minutes 16:56:58 Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started 16:57:06 + +95089aaaa 16:57:25 Zakim, +095089aaaa is me 16:57:25 sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named '+095089aaaa' 16:57:39 Zakim, +aaaa is me 16:57:39 sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named '+aaaa' 16:58:39 fantasai has joined #css 16:58:45 Zakim, you give me heaadaches 16:58:45 I don't understand 'you give me heaadaches', glazou 16:59:31 + +1.408.398.aabb 16:59:52 + +1.858.354.aacc 16:59:59 zakim, 398.aabb is dsinger 16:59:59 sorry, dsinger, I do not recognize a party named '398.aabb' 17:00:06 zakim, +1.858.354 is me 17:00:07 +plinss; got it 17:00:19 zakim +1.408.398.aabb is dsinger 17:00:43 zakim, +1.408.398.aabb is dsinger 17:00:45 +dsinger; got it 17:00:55 Zakim, +095089aaaa is me 17:00:56 ChrisL has joined #css 17:00:56 sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named '+095089aaaa' 17:01:18 zakim, who is on the phone? 17:01:21 ChrisL: do you master Zakim ? 17:01:22 On the phone I see +95089aaaa, dsinger, plinss 17:01:31 zakim, +095089 is glazou 17:01:31 sorry, plinss, I do not recognize a party named '+095089' 17:01:33 yes, why? 17:01:41 can you make it know +095089aaaa is me ? 17:01:45 I can't 17:01:49 zakim, +95 is glazou 17:01:49 +glazou; got it 17:01:54 dave is muted as he is on a bus 17:01:56 D'OH !!!! 17:02:00 thanks ChrisL 17:02:00 + +1.415.920.aadd 17:02:04 +[Microsoft] 17:02:16 Zakim, +1.415 is fantasai 17:02:16 +fantasai; got it 17:02:38 that syntax works despite being wrong - number is probably +33 95.... 17:02:51 plinss: I started filling an attendance table for good standing 17:02:55 sylvaing has joined #css 17:03:02 zakim, code? 17:03:02 the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), ChrisL 17:03:05 great 17:03:08 +Bert 17:03:27 +ChrisL 17:03:48 dbaron has joined #css 17:04:05 +[Mozilla] 17:04:18 Zakim, [Mozilla] has David_Baron 17:04:18 +David_Baron; got it 17:04:35 + +47.21.65.aaee 17:04:41 Zakim, aaee is howcome 17:04:43 +howcome; got it 17:04:50 Zakim, who is on the phone? 17:04:50 On the phone I see glazou, dsinger, plinss, fantasai, [Microsoft], Bert, ChrisL, [Mozilla], howcome 17:04:52 [Mozilla] has David_Baron 17:04:58 Zakim, [Microsoft] has sylvaing 17:04:58 +sylvaing; got it 17:06:22 +SteveZ 17:06:34 zakim, mute stevez 17:06:34 SteveZ should now be muted 17:06:40 zakim, who is noisy? 17:06:52 dsinger, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (71%), howcome (12%) 17:07:49 ScribeNick: fantasai 17:08:07 Daniel: First thing, ... attendance to conference calls and F2Fs 17:08:12 szilles has joined #css 17:08:31 Daniel: We said starting with the new charter we start looking at attendance for good/bad standing in the WG 17:08:47 Daniel: So we start doing this today 17:08:54 http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/issues/63 17:08:56 Daniel: First technical item is background shorthand 17:09:07 krijnh has joined #css 17:09:31 fantasai: I think the only proposal we had so far was to remove the slash in background-color 17:09:41 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Sep/0142.html 17:09:51 dbaron: There are two uses of slash in the background shorthand. 17:10:05 dbaron: The first case is that a slash separates the bgcolor and fallback color 17:10:21 dbaron: The other use is the slash indicates background-size 17:10:49 dbaron: When you're parsing and you get a slash, you don't know whether you're going to get a background-size or background-color 17:11:28 dbaron: one option is to require background-size to come after a particular property, such as background-position 17:11:40 fantasai: problem with that is that I expect people will use background-size a lot without background-position 17:12:34 szilles_ has joined #css 17:13:19 fantasai: The simplest thing would be to remove the slash in background-color, but that would make it harder to read and would require writing 'transparent' every time you just want a fallback 17:13:43 Bert: Anne also suggested using parentheses for background-size 17:13:44 One other proposal is to replace the symbol '/' with the keyword 'size' in the shorthand. 17:14:21 sylvaing: A functional notation for the value in the shorthand? 17:14:23 fantasai: we wanted to avoid using parens where grouping isn't required 17:17:49 discussion of shorthand syntax conventions 17:17:55 and why functional notation is inconsistent with them 17:19:00 Five proposals so fat, I think: (1) keep slash, but require size to follow position (and fallback color to follow color); (2) no slash between colors; (3) parentheses around size; (4) keyword 'size' before position; (5) use size(w, h). 17:19:31 howcome has joined #css 17:21:19 ChrisL: If the keyword is there in the shorthand, it should be present in the property as well 17:21:34 background-size: size 40em 20em; 17:21:37 That looks weird 17:21:39 and redundant 17:22:00 background-size: size(40em, 20em) is what eh meant 17:22:02 he 17:22:06 ah 17:22:18 yes, but it would keep the shorthand and the individual property taking the same syntax 17:22:29 ChrisL: yes but ugly 17:23:01 Bert: I think I'm favoring having no slash in the color 17:23:27 background-color: transparent white; 17:23:33 background: ..... transparent white; 17:23:45 vs 17:23:50 background-color: / white; 17:23:55 background: .... / white; 17:24:04 dsinger has joined #css 17:24:22 background: url(pattern.png) / white; 17:24:35 background: url(pattern.png) transparent / white; 17:25:02 Daniel asks if 2-token lookahead is really a problem for everyone 17:25:21 + +1.408.996.aaff 17:25:28 -dsinger 17:25:39 Zakim, aaff is dsinger 17:25:39 +dsinger; got it 17:25:54 zakim, +1.408.996.aaff is [Apple] 17:25:54 sorry, dsinger, I do not recognize a party named '+1.408.996.aaff' 17:26:12 no objection 17:26:13 dbaron explains that he'd rather reuse code for parsing the property rather than having to rewrite that code in the shorthand parsing function 17:26:14 zakim, dsinger is [Apple] 17:26:14 +[Apple]; got it 17:26:20 zakim, [Apple] has dsinger 17:26:20 +dsinger; got it 17:26:22 Daniel proposes going with 2) remove slash 17:26:41 (2) is fine with me 17:27:28 RESOLVED: remove slash 17:27:34 http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/issues/74 17:28:18 dsinger has joined #css 17:28:59 Options are, either every comma-separated property determines the number of layers (highest wins); or only background-image defines the number of layers 17:31:05 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Dec/0087.html 17:31:21 Daniel: Apple has implemented the multiple-property approache 17:31:46 fantasai: I think the single-property approach would be less confusing and less likely to introduce unintended effects through the cascade. 17:31:47 Daniel,David, Bert favor the bg-image approach 17:31:58 fantasai: I asked Molly and Jason and they also think that would be less confusing for authors 17:32:19 I'm trying to figure out if we discussed this in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2004OctDec/0123.html 17:32:22 sylvain: no opinion 17:32:33 ... or http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2004OctDec/0129.html 17:32:45 sylvain: I like fantasai's solution, but I haven't thought about it enough to have a strong opinion 17:33:50 NOTED: Working Group favors background-image solution, waiting for Apple's response since they have implemented the other solution already. 17:33:50 I hear nothing 17:33:53 can you hear me ? 17:34:11 ok 17:34:16 zakim, pointer? 17:34:16 I don't understand your question, Bert. 17:34:24 RRSAgent, pointer? 17:34:24 See http://www.w3.org/2009/01/07-css-irc#T17-34-24 17:34:28 rrsagent, here 17:34:28 See http://www.w3.org/2009/01/07-css-irc#T17-34-28 17:34:44 fantasai: I think that in terms of backwards compatibility, I think very few people would be taking advantage of the fact that properties other than background-image increase the number of layers in Safari 17:35:09 +Daniel_Glazman 17:35:57 http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-91 17:35:57 Daniel: That issue deferred to next week, or sooner if Apple replies on the mailing list 17:36:03 Topic: CSS2.1 17:37:00 I wonder whether Hixie has an opinion on this issue (issue 91)... 17:38:44 text text2 17:39:06 is there a break opportunity between text and text2? 17:39:08 that's the question 17:40:08 I don't think the testcase thtree lines up is all that contrived 17:40:38 In CSS3 there will most likely be a value that removes all whitespace, so whatever answer we want should match the behavior there 17:41:24 (in the example above the second space gets dropped) 17:42:52 Rendered text there is "text text2" 17:43:26 (I think the collapsing affects how far apart the two words are, but there are conceptually still two word separators and one of them allows lines to break...) 17:44:49 so its not *removal* of ws, but not rendering it (or rendering as a zero-width space?) 17:45:52 Daniel: Sounds consistent with fantasai's proposal. 17:45:59 no objection 17:46:01 Daniel: Should we accept? Any objections? 17:46:05 RESOLVED: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Dec/0075.html accepted 17:46:31 http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-92 17:46:48 http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-95 17:47:31 http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/page.html#oversized-page-box 17:47:52 These two sections (13.2.1.1 and 13.2.1.2) can't exist in 2.1 because we removed the size property 17:47:56 so we should just remove those sections 17:48:06 RESOLVED: remove 17:48:34 rrsagent, here 17:48:34 See http://www.w3.org/2009/01/07-css-irc#T17-48-34 17:49:00 http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-box/#flow-root 17:49:00 rrsagent, make logs public 17:49:38 Topic: Flow Roots 17:49:53 fantasai: flow roots are just a new name for block formatting context roots 17:50:15 Bert: I thought that "element that introduces a block formatting context" was a bit long 17:50:29 :) 17:50:36 howcome: The problem I'm trying to solve is that in multicolumn layout, a float is relative to the column box 17:50:53 howcome: But I don't think each column box should be a containing block, e.g. for positioned content 17:51:38 dbaron: The column box is a containing block. The width of elements inside the column, for example, are calculated wrt the column box 17:52:31 fantasai: the abspos containing block can be the multicolumn box, and is in your spec 17:52:53 dbaron: The column box shouldn't be considered to be relatively positioned. 17:53:03 howcome: So it doesn't create a reference for abspos. 17:53:07 dbaron: yeah 17:53:16 howcome: Ok, that helps. 17:53:39 Topic: rem unit 17:54:01 howcome: Should it be rem, or rm, or something else? 17:54:09 fantasai: rem sounds good to me 17:54:11 deg = 3 letetrs... 17:54:19 howcome: the other units are two units 17:54:49 howcome: if people like rem, I'll keep that 17:54:50 s/two units/two letters/ 17:54:58 RESOLVED: rem 17:55:16 dbaron: I have another issue with rem 17:55:23 dbaron: Interaction with SVG resource documents 17:55:31 s/letetrs/letters/ 17:55:33 dbaron: I think it needs to the root of the root document 17:55:38 dbaron: we might want to postpone this 17:56:44 http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-96 17:56:51 if people feel that needs discussion, then discuss 17:56:57 I thought it was pretty obviously an error 17:57:08 RESOLVED: it's an error, fix it 17:57:24 dbaron: Might want to say "of the block box" 17:57:30 dbaron: just to be more specific 17:58:47 Meeting closed. 17:58:48 cheers 17:58:48 -[Mozilla] 17:58:49 -ChrisL 17:58:50 -[Microsoft] 17:58:52 -howcome 17:58:54 bye 17:58:55 -SteveZ 17:58:56 -plinss 17:58:58 -[Apple] 17:59:00 -fantasai 17:59:03 -Daniel_Glazman 17:59:05 -Bert 18:05:01 disconnecting the lone participant, glazou, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM 18:05:02 Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended 18:05:04 Attendees were +95089aaaa, +1.858.354.aacc, plinss, glazou, +1.415.920.aadd, fantasai, Bert, ChrisL, David_Baron, +47.21.65.aaee, howcome, sylvaing, SteveZ, +1.408.996.aaff, 18:05:07 ... dsinger, Daniel_Glazman 19:09:55 krijnh has joined #css 19:25:27 fantasai has joined #css 19:30:11 sylvaing has joined #css 19:38:04 Zakim has left #css 20:31:44 howcome: btw, thanks for handling the minutes for Dec 10th! 20:39:31 Bert_ has joined #css 20:47:25 RRSAgent: here 20:47:25 See http://www.w3.org/2009/01/07-css-irc#T20-47-25 21:10:03 krijnh has joined #css 22:04:37 Lachy has joined #css 22:13:07 dbaron has joined #css