IRC log of ua on 2008-12-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:54:26 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
17:54:26 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-ua-irc
17:54:28 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
17:54:28 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
17:54:30 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
17:54:30 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot, I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM already started
17:54:31 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
17:54:31 [trackbot]
Date: 18 December 2008
17:54:55 [sharper]
Chair: Jim Allan & Judy Brewer
17:54:56 [KFord]
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present+ Harper_simon
17:55:24 [sharper]
present+ Kelly_Ford
17:55:50 [KFord]
zakim, who's here
17:55:50 [Zakim]
KFord, you need to end that query with '?'
17:56:02 [sharper]
present- Kelly_Ford
17:56:04 [KFord]
zakim, who's here?
17:56:04 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +1.425.883.aaaa
17:56:05 [Zakim]
On IRC I see KFord, Zakim, RRSAgent, sharper, AllanJ, trackbot
17:56:18 [sharper]
present+ Ford_Kelly
17:56:31 [sharper]
present+ Allan_Jim
17:56:48 [Zakim]
+Jim_Allan
17:56:50 [sharper]
scribe: Harper_Simon
17:56:50 [sharper]
ScribeNick: sharper
17:57:05 [sharper]
meeting: User Agent Working Group Telecon: 18 Dec 2008
17:57:31 [sharper]
agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008OctDec/0081.html
17:57:50 [KFord]
zakimm +1.425.883.3343 is Kelly Ford
17:57:51 [sharper]
Agenda+ Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?
17:58:22 [sharper]
Agenda+ Complete Review Survey Items http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20081209/ Items 3 and 4 - definition of web-based and non-web-based user agent
17:58:38 [KFord]
zakim, 3343 is really kford
17:58:38 [Zakim]
sorry, KFord, I do not recognize a party named '3343'
17:58:43 [sharper]
Agenda+ Continue Reviewing Guideline 3.4, 3.5, 3.6 for clarity and syntax.
17:58:55 [KFord]
zakim, who's here?
17:58:55 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +1.425.883.aaaa, Jim_Allan
17:58:56 [Zakim]
On IRC I see KFord, Zakim, RRSAgent, sharper, AllanJ, trackbot
17:59:04 [sharper]
Agenda+ Review Action Item status http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/open
17:59:15 [sharper]
zakim, code
17:59:15 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'code', sharper
17:59:19 [KFord]
zakim, aaaa is really kford
17:59:19 [Zakim]
+kford; got it
18:00:50 [Zakim]
+Cantor
18:00:50 [sharper]
zakim, next item
18:00:51 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?" taken up [from sharper]
18:01:27 [JR]
JR has joined #ua
18:01:30 [sharper]
Call-in: Zakim bridge at: +1-617-761-6200, code 82941# for UK use
18:01:31 [sharper]
44-117-370-6152
18:01:45 [Zakim]
+??P7
18:02:05 [Alan]
Alan has joined #ua
18:02:07 [sharper]
zakim, ??P7 is sharper
18:02:07 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
18:02:29 [JR]
zakim, code?
18:02:29 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), JR
18:02:38 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
18:02:42 [Zakim]
+??P8
18:02:45 [sharper]
present+ Cantor_Alan
18:02:49 [jeanne]
zakim, call jeanne-work
18:02:49 [Zakim]
ok, jeanne; the call is being made
18:02:51 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
18:03:06 [sharper]
zakim, ??P8 is JR
18:03:06 [Zakim]
+JR; got it
18:03:14 [JR]
zakim, ??P8 is really JR
18:03:14 [Zakim]
+JR; got it
18:03:19 [sharper]
present+ Richards_Jan
18:03:34 [sharper]
present+ Spellman_Jeanne
18:06:20 [sharper]
AllanJ: Happy Holidays!zakim, close item 1
18:06:20 [sharper]
zakim, next item
18:06:20 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Complete Review Survey Items http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20081209/ Items 3 and 4 - definition of web-based and non-web-based user agent" taken up [from sharper]
18:07:07 [sharper]
zakim, close item 1
18:07:07 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?, closed
18:07:08 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:07:10 [Zakim]
2. Complete Review Survey Items http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20081209/ Items 3 and 4 - definition of web-based and non-web-based user agent [from sharper]
18:07:17 [sharper]
zakim, next item
18:07:17 [Zakim]
agendum 2 was just opened, sharper
18:07:31 [AllanJ]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20081209/results
18:08:47 [sharper]
topic: Proposed definition for "non-Web-based"
18:09:05 [sharper]
Proposed: user agent user interface (non-Web-Based) Any components of a user agent user interface that runs directly on a non-user agent platform such as Windows, MacOS, Java Virtual Machine, etc. Base browsers are always non-Web-Based.
18:10:48 [sharper]
Results: (Accept 2 / Discuss 4) - What happens when the UI is generated from web content? x 2 / Clarify x 2
18:13:33 [AllanJ]
other proposal: <proposed>
18:13:35 [AllanJ]
User-Agent user interface (non-Web-Based): Any components of a user agent user interface that runs directly on an operating system, such as Windows, MacOS, Java Virtual Machine, etc. <br />
18:13:36 [AllanJ]
Base browsers are always non-Web-Based.
18:13:38 [AllanJ]
</proposed>
18:14:54 [sharper]
AllanJ: Email Exchange with Gregg Vanderheiden (starting at: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008OctDec/0078.html)
18:15:18 [jeanne]
+ 1 to Jim's proposal.
18:15:36 [jeanne]
I would like to add mobile OS to the list.
18:16:40 [AllanJ]
sharper: perhaps, components not generated from content...
18:16:51 [AllanJ]
JS: seems circular
18:17:34 [AllanJ]
JR: browsers render content. they provide an interface to the content.
18:17:59 [AllanJ]
sharper: what about components outside the dom
18:18:37 [judy]
judy has joined #ua
18:18:48 [judy]
zakim, please dial judy-office
18:18:48 [Zakim]
ok, judy; the call is being made
18:18:50 [Zakim]
+Judy
18:19:02 [AllanJ]
JR: scenario, FF have a kernel that runs on windows, that renders itself, then renders extensions, then adds components from content
18:19:12 [sharper]
present+ Brewer_Judy
18:19:56 [AllanJ]
KF: what if the browser runs something in a sandbox, activex control, that separate from the OS
18:20:15 [sharper]
All: Thinking Out Loud (moving through 'what if' scenarios)
18:20:26 [AllanJ]
...this is possible, many want to do this, eliminates lots of security problems
18:20:45 [AllanJ]
JR: back to definition
18:21:13 [AllanJ]
...have WCAG20, it applies to web-based tools
18:21:42 [sharper]
JR: Need this definition to define tools that WCAG can be applied to and tools that it can't.
18:22:26 [sharper]
JR: What about using user agents that are Web applications and ones that aren't
18:24:28 [sharper]
AllanJ: need to also better define User Agent - which may resolve these definitions of Web Based and Non-Web Based.
18:25:17 [sharper]
AllanJ: Glossary is Normative
18:26:06 [JR]
q+
18:26:15 [sharper]
Judy: Do we have an open item on Glossary cross-checking?
18:26:26 [AllanJ]
issue: WAI glossary, coordinate between WCAG, ATAG, UAAG
18:26:26 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-26 - WAI glossary, coordinate between WCAG, ATAG, UAAG ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/26/edit .
18:26:36 [sharper]
JR: I think I have an Action to do - done already earlier this week for ATAG
18:28:11 [JR]
Action: JR, JA to propose new wording for web-based, non-web-based using "Web Application" - UAAG and ATAG versions
18:28:11 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - JR,
18:28:37 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-103 - Tp JR, JA to propose new wording for web-based, non-web-based using \"Web Application\" - UAAG and ATAG versions [on Jan Richards - due 2008-12-25].
18:28:55 [sharper]
RESOLVED: JR / AllanJ to address this as part of actions across WCAG, ATAG, UAAG.
18:29:07 [sharper]
item: Proposed definition for "Web-based"
18:29:21 [sharper]
RESOLVED: Again JR / AllanJ to address this as part of actions across WCAG, ATAG, UAAG.
18:31:03 [sharper]
topic: Level for 2.1.1 - 2.1.6
18:32:12 [sharper]
Judy: need a rationale for 2.1.6 to justify A and not AA
18:33:16 [jeanne]
action: JS to update UAAG to assign level A for 2.1.1, 2.1.2, 2.1.3, 2.1.4, 2.1.6
18:33:16 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-104 - Update UAAG to assign level A for 2.1.1, 2.1.2, 2.1.3, 2.1.4, 2.1.6 [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-12-25].
18:33:49 [sharper]
All: Short discussion to formulate this.
18:36:52 [sharper]
ITEM: Rationale / explanation for 2.1.6 for say font-family needed for future developers (how are we considering capturing this kind of thing)
18:38:05 [sharper]
ISSUE: Rationale / explanation for 2.1.6 for say font-family needed for future developers (how are we considering capturing this kind of thing)
18:38:05 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-27 - Rationale / explanation for 2.1.6 for say font-family needed for future developers (how are we considering capturing this kind of thing) ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/27/edit .
18:40:47 [sharper]
AllanJ: Should we use font or font-family?
18:41:05 [sharper]
Alan: Typeface?
18:41:25 [KFord]
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18:42:04 [sharper]
Fonts in CSS: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/fonts.html
18:43:10 [sharper]
More http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/fonts.html#generic-font-families
18:43:24 [Alan]
n typography, a typeface is a set of one or more letters, in one or more font sizes, designed with stylistic unity, each comprising a coordinated set of glyphs. A typeface usually comprises an alphabet of letters, numerals, and punctuation marks; it may also include ideograms and symbols, or consist entirely of them, for example, mathematical or map-making symbols. The term typeface is...
18:43:24 [AllanJ]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Font_family
18:43:25 [Alan]
...frequently conflated with font; the two terms had more clearly differentiated meanings before the advent of desktop publishing. The current distinction between font and typeface is that a font designates a specific member of a type family such as roman, boldface, or italic type, while typeface designates a consistent visual appearance or style which can be a "family" or related set of...
18:43:27 [Alan]
...fonts. For example, a given typeface such as Arial may include roman, bold, and italic fonts. In the metal type era, a font also meant a specific point size, but with digital scalable outline fonts this distinction is no longer valid, as a single font may be scaled to any size.
18:46:42 [AllanJ]
sharper: perhaps use the definition from CSS
18:53:36 [jeanne]
action: JS to contact Richard Ishida to discuss use of visual characters/fonts in screenreaders.
18:53:36 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-105 - Contact Richard Ishida to discuss use of visual characters/fonts in screenreaders. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-12-25].
18:57:59 [AllanJ]
Issue: rieview 2.1.6 Properties and the validity and reasoning for including the 6 items
18:57:59 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-28 - Rieview 2.1.6 Properties and the validity and reasoning for including the 6 items ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/28/edit .
18:58:06 [sharper]
ISSUE: Flag (a) the bounding dimensions and coordinates of rendered graphical objects, (b) font family of text, (c) font size of text, (d) foreground color of text, (e) background color of text., (f) change state/value notifications. DON'T WANT TO MOVE TO REC WITHOUT A BETTER SHARED UNDERSTANDING OF THESE - SEE ACTION-105
18:58:07 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-29 - Flag (a) the bounding dimensions and coordinates of rendered graphical objects, (b) font family of text, (c) font size of text, (d) foreground color of text, (e) background color of text., (f) change state/value notifications. DON'T WANT TO MOVE TO REC WITHOUT A BETTER SHARED UNDERSTANDING OF THESE - SEE ACTION-105 ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/29/edit .
18:58:56 [jeanne]
+1 to named font
18:59:54 [Alan]
+2 to named font
19:01:31 [JR]
+1 font family (but invetigate better alternatives)
19:04:40 [AllanJ]
KF: scenario, browsing on a phone, with limited fonts, should the AT give the user more information to the AT user than the non-AT user
19:06:55 [AllanJ]
JB: font name may not be level A
19:09:14 [sharper]
RESOLVED: All agree, 'A' for all - but referee back to define these 6 items better.
19:09:26 [sharper]
zakim, close item
19:09:26 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'close item', sharper
19:09:33 [sharper]
zakim, close item 2
19:09:33 [Zakim]
I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, sharper
19:09:33 [sharper]
zakim, next item
19:09:35 [Zakim]
I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, sharper
19:10:13 [sharper]
q-
19:10:30 [JR]
ack JR
19:10:40 [sharper]
zakim, close item 2
19:10:40 [Zakim]
agendum 2, Complete Review Survey Items http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20081209/ Items 3 and 4 - definition of web-based and non-web-based user agent, closed
19:10:40 [sharper]
zakim, next item
19:10:43 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
19:10:45 [Zakim]
3. Continue Reviewing Guideline 3.4, 3.5, 3.6 for clarity and syntax. [from sharper]
19:10:46 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Continue Reviewing Guideline 3.4, 3.5, 3.6 for clarity and syntax." taken up [from sharper]
19:11:02 [AllanJ]
topic: 3.4.1 Repair Missing Alternatives: The user has the option of receiving generated repair text when the user agent recognizes that the author has not provided alternative content required by the technology specification (e.g., short text alternative for an image). (Level A)
19:11:53 [JR]
q+
19:12:40 [JR]
ack JR
19:14:08 [AllanJ]
JR: this covers missing 'alt', user set option if no alt do xxx, UA must provide repair options, in future, may be image OCR
19:14:21 [Alan]
Rewording... When the user agent recognizes that the author has not provided alternative content required by the technology specification (e.g., short text alternative for an image), allow the user the option to receive generated repair text.
19:14:54 [AllanJ]
KF: AT now provides these options, but should be done by the UA,
19:15:11 [AllanJ]
...UA would give name of object to AT
19:15:33 [AllanJ]
shaper: wordsmithing, why?
19:18:31 [AllanJ]
Provide the user with anoption of receiving generated repair text when the user agent recognizes that the author has not provided alternative content required by the technology specification (e.g., short text alternative for an image).
19:19:24 [sharper]
all alternative: Provide the option of receiving generated repair text when the user agent recognizes that the author has omitted alternative content required by the technology specification (e.g., short text alternative for an image). (Level A)
19:19:29 [JR]
Provide the user with the option of receiving generated repair text when the user agent recognizes alternative content is missing (e.g., short text alternative for an image).
19:20:20 [jeanne]
Provide an option of receiving generated repair text when the user agent recognizes alternative content is missing.
19:20:54 [AllanJ]
KF: how does this relate to 3.3.3 and the cascade of alternative
19:26:34 [AllanJ]
sharper: perhaps wrap this into 3.1.1, add generated alternatives if content is missing
19:27:11 [AllanJ]
JS: repair is important enough to have a separate item
19:28:53 [sharper]
AllanJ: these need a comprehensive re-hash
19:29:08 [AllanJ]
JR: user needs option to turn off rendering alternatives
19:30:42 [AllanJ]
action: allanj to review 3.1 and 3.4 propose new success criteria
19:30:42 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - allanj
19:31:09 [jeanne]
Action: JS to repair the Guideline 3.11 numbering
19:31:09 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-106 - Repair the Guideline 3.11 numbering [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-12-25].
19:31:15 [AllanJ]
action: JA to review 3.1 and 3.4 propose new success criteria
19:31:15 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-107 - Review 3.1 and 3.4 propose new success criteria [on Jim Allan - due 2008-12-25].
19:31:31 [sharper]
RESOLVED: AllanJ to investigate this further (3.1 and 3.4)
19:32:03 [Zakim]
-Jeanne
19:32:04 [Zakim]
-kford
19:32:05 [Zakim]
-Cantor
19:32:06 [Zakim]
-Judy
19:32:10 [Zakim]
-JR
19:32:14 [Alan]
quit
19:32:16 [Alan]
exit
19:32:20 [Zakim]
-Jim_Allan
19:32:37 [sharper]
rrsagent, create minutes
19:32:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-ua-minutes.html sharper
19:33:29 [Zakim]
-sharper
19:33:30 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
19:33:31 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.425.883.aaaa, Jim_Allan, kford, Cantor, sharper, Jeanne, JR, Judy
19:33:57 [sharper]
rrsagent, create minutes
19:33:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-ua-minutes.html sharper
19:34:24 [sharper]
zakim, please part
19:34:24 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
19:34:46 [sharper]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
19:34:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-ua-minutes.html sharper
19:35:46 [sharper]
rrsagent, please part
19:35:46 [RRSAgent]
I see 7 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-ua-actions.rdf :
19:35:46 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JR, JA to propose new wording for web-based, non-web-based using "Web Application" - UAAG and ATAG versions [1]
19:35:46 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-ua-irc#T18-28-11
19:35:46 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JR tp JR, JA to propose new wording for web-based, non-web-based using "Web Application" - UAAG and ATAG versions [2]
19:35:46 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-ua-irc#T18-28-36
19:35:46 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JS to update UAAG to assign level A for 2.1.1, 2.1.2, 2.1.3, 2.1.4, 2.1.6 [3]
19:35:46 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-ua-irc#T18-33-16
19:35:46 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JS to contact Richard Ishida to discuss use of visual characters/fonts in screenreaders. [4]
19:35:46 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-ua-irc#T18-53-36
19:35:46 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: allanj to review 3.1 and 3.4 propose new success criteria [5]
19:35:46 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-ua-irc#T19-30-42
19:35:46 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JS to repair the Guideline 3.11 numbering [6]
19:35:46 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-ua-irc#T19-31-09
19:35:46 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JA to review 3.1 and 3.4 propose new success criteria [7]
19:35:46 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-ua-irc#T19-31-15