17:53:29 RRSAgent has joined #tagmem 17:53:29 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-tagmem-irc 17:57:45 zakim, this will be tag 17:57:45 ok, skw, I see TAG_Weekly()1:00PM already started 17:57:57 zakim, who is on the phone 17:57:57 I don't understand 'who is on the phone', skw 17:58:02 zakim, who is on the phone? 17:58:02 On the phone I see ??P2 17:58:11 zakim, ??p2 is me 17:58:11 +skw; got it 17:58:33 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/12/18-agenda 17:58:40 Chair: Stuart Williams 17:58:51 Meeting: TAG Weekly 18:00:27 +Jonathan_Rees 18:00:59 +Norm 18:01:57 scribenick: jar 18:02:26 norm: Next meeting 8 Jan, I assume - will scribe then 18:02:46 zakim, who is here? 18:02:46 On the phone I see skw, Jonathan_Rees, Norm 18:02:47 On IRC I see RRSAgent, skw, noah, ht, Norm, timbl, DanC, trackbot, Zakim, jar 18:03:22 +DanC.a 18:03:46 skw: Raman is on holiday for about a month. Not expected today. 18:03:51 regrets+ TimBL 18:05:53 +[IBMCambridge] 18:06:02 zakim, [IBMCambridge] is me 18:06:02 +noah; got it 18:06:53 zakim, what do i say to take up next agendum? 18:06:53 I don't understand your question, jar. 18:07:01 zakim, take up item 1 18:07:01 agendum 1. "Convene, review records and agenda, plan next meeting" taken up [from Stuart via DanC] 18:07:30 +1 approve http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/12/04-minutes 18:07:42 skw: Propose to approve minutes -- 18:08:02 . RESOLVED: Approve http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/12/04-minutes 18:08:20 +1 meet again 8 Jan 18:08:24 skw: Meet on the 8th. 18:08:47 RESOLVED: Approve http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/12/04-minutes 18:09:03 zakim, take up item 2 18:09:03 agendum 2. "ISSUE-27 (IRIEverywhere-27)" taken up [from DanC] 18:09:09 . http://homer.w3.org/~connolly/projects/urlp/raw-file/tip/tinker.html 18:10:14 danc: Take a look at this page = "URI Syntax Tinkering" 18:10:38 danc: (reads through the page) 18:12:02 Idea (HTML5): patch 3986 by adding characters to the unreserved production... 18:12:06 +??P9 18:12:18 Zakim, ??P9 is DaveO 18:12:18 +DaveO; got it 18:12:59 Idea: Derive a parser from the URI spec, implement weird processing before, demonstrate equivalence. [see tinkering document] 18:13:26 s/Idea:/danc: idea:/ 18:13:40 danc: "Try it" 18:13:46 (?: 18:14:54 danc: "Try it" section is step 1 out of 5 steps. 18:15:11 danc: Spaces before and after, I believe, work. 18:16:21 add this 18:16:22 / %00-%20 18:16:23 to get 18:16:27 unreserved = ALPHA / DIGIT / "-" / "." / "_" / "~" / %00-%20 18:18:08 jar: doesn't work in FF 3.0.3, for me at least 18:19:03 danc: (finishing up review of the tinkering document) Step 1 done. Have gotten partway into step 2. 18:19:03 action-188 due 8 Jan 2009 18:19:03 ACTION-188 Investigate the URL/IRI/Larry Masinter possible resolution of the URL/HTML5 issue. due date now 8 Jan 2009 18:19:33 noah: Where are we going with this? 18:19:46 danc: Success is a different alyering of the specs. 18:19:58 ... Current spec says modify the URI spec. 18:20:09 ... Alternative is munge the input in a certain way, then use URI spec as written. 18:20:46 noah: Looks to me like they're redefining the letters "URI" 18:21:00 danc: No, they're redefining the letters "URL" 18:21:12 q? 18:21:18 http://www.whatwg.org/status-2008-12 18:21:33 noah: So you're not proposing to change "URL" to something else - to let that acronym stand in HTML5? 18:21:40 " - uri to ietf (maybe danc as editor?) 18:21:40 " 18:21:43 danc: Not proposing that change. 18:22:03 SCRIBE: Minutes are wrong. 18:22:07 s/ Not proposing that change./yes, thinking about such a change/ 18:22:12 ah. 18:23:33 zakim, take up item 3 18:23:33 agendum 3. "Self-Describing Web" taken up [from TimBL via DanC] 18:24:32 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/12/DSC_3861_001.jpg 18:24:37 skw: Wanted to give TAG a chance to discuss whether changes proposed by Tim are changes the TAG would like the finding editor to make. 18:24:38 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/12/DSC_3862_001.jpg 18:27:18 noah: How about if I just do the "obvious thing"? 18:27:28 action-209? 18:27:28 ACTION-209 -- Noah Mendelsohn to attempt to address critical concerns from end of 11 Dec self-describing web discussion -- due 2009-01-15 -- OPEN 18:27:28 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/209 18:27:39 action-207? 18:27:39 ACTION-207 -- Jonathan Rees to try to wordsmith to get rid of 'Semantic Web' and submit for review -- due 2008-12-18 -- OPEN 18:27:40 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/207 18:27:51 noah: There were a few actions assigned to others, e.g. some to Jonathan 18:28:18 (there's one other action on noah; there are no others re self-describing web) 18:28:32 (ouch ... that action was due today) 18:29:43 noah: I want to go straight to something that should be able to command consensus 18:30:00 action-207 due 6 jan 2009 18:30:00 ACTION-207 Try to wordsmith to get rid of 'Semantic Web' and submit for review due date now 6 jan 2009 18:31:12 skw: When will TAG election results be available? 18:31:32 noah: To minimize thrashing, let's try to finish up ASAP 18:32:16 zakim, take up item 4 18:32:16 agendum 4. "ISSUE-41 (XMLVersioning-41)" taken up [from DaveO via DanC] 18:32:51 action-165 due 8 Jan 2009 18:32:51 ACTION-165 Formulate erratum text on versioning for the web architecture document due date now 8 Jan 2009 18:33:41 (awaiting actions) 18:33:49 zakim, take up item 5 18:33:49 agendum 5. "ISSUE-30 (binaryXML-30)" taken up [from Stuart via DanC] 18:35:00 noah: Has this action been discharged / stalled? 18:35:21 "DO: I think NM has made some progress, I request to be released from this, too much load elsewhere" [Stuart Williams] 18:35:47 dave: We were to say approximately "Dear EXI WG, we look forward to your answer to the notes the TAG sent you previously." 18:36:28 TO SCRIBE - figure out what to do about skw's text above. 18:37:00 (aha... found it... http://www.w3.org/2008/12/11-tagmem-irc ... action-176: part of the trail http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/10/tpac ) 18:38:23 (I don't need Noah to run this by the TAG; I'm happy for him to send it on my/our behalf) 18:38:59 q+ to ask about the EXI evaluation report at: http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-exi-evaluation-20080728/ 18:39:09 noah: They want to just move ahead, want to know TAG's blocking concerns. 18:39:31 noah: I will draft something, send to DO cc the list 18:39:57 do: Hopes the TAG going forward will stand by the feedback it gave a couple years ago 18:40:30 noah: speed story fuzzy, compactness is good, intuitively speed story won't be bad 18:40:45 DO: is it worth having two XML serializations? 18:41:59 ack me 18:41:59 skw, you wanted to ask about the EXI evaluation report at: http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-exi-evaluation-20080728/ 18:42:16 noah: I remain nervous about it. 5 years ago was too early to do it. By now I hope the community has a better idea of good practice and will be able to handle EXI. [scribe's liberty] 18:43:02 skw: We said measurement report was very digest; new evaluation report presents same info in a different way 18:43:28 noah: I thought they said the work was done w.r.t. size but not speed, and that a speed report was forthcoming 18:43:48 DO: Tim wanted a space/speed scatterplot 18:44:06 ACTION-176 due 8 Jan 2009 18:44:06 ACTION-176 draft comments on exi w.r.t. evaluation and efficiency due date now 8 Jan 2009 18:44:35 noah: Will try to get to this in the next few days 18:44:37 ACTION-176? 18:44:37 ACTION-176 -- Noah Mendelsohn to send comments on exi w.r.t. evaluation and efficiency -- due 2009-01-08 -- OPEN 18:44:37 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/176 18:45:02 zakim, take up item 6 18:45:02 agendum 6. "Dec FTF Meeting Records" taken up [from Stuart via DanC] 18:45:35 skw: Anyone had time to review? 18:46:16 danc: When ready, we should post to public-tag-announce. Also AC would like to hear our periodic report. 18:46:25 s/AC/AB 18:46:58 danc: We could use some specific topics in some kind of public communication, e.g. safe javascript 18:47:28 danc: How about we approve minutes contingent on 1-2 particular people OK'ing them? 18:48:43 I did publish the photo in http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/12/09-f2f-agenda 18:49:02 (somebody resized it; nifty) 18:50:31 ok, so critical path is noah, norm, dan 18:50:34 norm: (volunteers to read f2f minutes) 18:51:41 jar: will do outstanding small edits today 18:51:58 danc: public-announce is for minutes 18:52:14 "public-tag-announce (archive, RSS feed) is used for announcements from the TAG of minutes, ... " -- http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/ 18:53:17 noah: Third day is IRC logs run through the script - not missing anything? 18:53:37 danc: Common sense would say yes. 18:54:28 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/12/09-f2f-agenda 18:55:33 (investigation concluding that Henry's 3rd day minutes are under w3.org/tag/2001/... 18:56:20 . RESOLVED: Dec F2F minutes approved contingent on approval from Noah, Norm, and Dan 18:56:35 RESOLVED: Dec F2F minutes approved contingent on approval from Noah, Norm, and Dan 18:56:52 zakim, take up item 7 18:56:52 I only see 6 items on the agenda 18:57:05 Zakim, who's on the phone? 18:57:05 On the phone I see skw, Jonathan_Rees, Norm, DanC.a, noah, DaveO 18:57:25 http://www.whatwg.org/status-2008-12 18:57:32 agenda + Any other business 18:57:40 zakim, take up item 7 18:57:40 agendum 7. "Any other business" taken up [from jar] 18:59:14 danc: Ian gave an update to incoming HTML5 cochair Sam Ruby. 18:59:40 http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20081211#l-43 18:59:46 MikeSmith: so i met with lisa 18:59:46 MikeSmith: she's open to us splitting off the protocol 18:59:46 part of websocket, the content-sniffing section, the uri 18:59:46 section, and a brief definition of the Origin header, and 18:59:46 submitting them as four tentative IDs 18:59:47 (the api part of web socket would go into a separate w3c draft) 18:59:49 MikeSmith: assuming there's no objections, i'll start 18:59:51 looking at doing that in early january 19:00:03 (Lisa Dusseault?) 19:00:35 http://www.ietf.org/IESGmems.html 19:00:40 "Applications Area (app) 19:00:40 Lisa Dusseault, Open Source Applications Foundation " 19:00:59 danc: Lisa is an IESG member. 19:01:40 danc: Lisa had raised concerns about websockets. Good that she's talking directly with Ian H. 19:02:37 most likely time is Tue 6 Jan 16:00 BOS 19:02:59 danc: IETF/W3C liaison meeting is coming up... 19:03:30 skw: What's content sniffing discussion about - what does it have to do with IETF? 19:04:38 danc: Impinges on HTTP. 19:05:18 danc: No chance of changing legacy SW, so best solution is to document what is actually deployed. 19:06:11 noah: What are chances of being able to tell conservative in what you send / liberal in what you consume story? 19:07:09 danc: Barth did a very cool data collection exercise 19:07:25 ... he's also editing the Origin: spec 19:07:40 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-comments/2008Oct/0005.html Content sniffing data from Chrome Dan Connolly (Friday, 24 October) 19:07:55 ^ adam barth's work 19:08:02 s/he's also/he also might be/ 19:09:07 (you're welcome to tell the meeting and hope it gets to the relevant places, but if you're asking me to convey this, Noah, I'm saying "no, can't add that to my list, but you're welcome to attend the IETF/W3C liaison telcon") 19:09:36 noah: Content-type counts. (full stop) If you're receiving, the story is longer. 19:10:56 jar: (I interpret Noah as saying: To be a compliant sender, you have to mean Content-type. But a defensive receiver will have to be more generous, since so many senders are not compliant.) 19:11:24 What I tried to say was: calling the call "sniffing" suggests a focus on receivers only; I think that if anything is to be said, it needs to tell a story about when it is or isn't OK to send anything other than text as Content-type: text/plain, and when it is or isn't ok as a receiver to infer the presence of anything other than text from Content-type: text/plain. Sniffing sounds like a spec... 19:11:29 for receivers only. 19:12:29 danc: The worst nightmare in standardization: What happens when an emergency call is processed. 19:12:55 ... W3C is working on geolocation, so your cell phone can transmit location to web apps. 19:13:10 https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/486/ 19:13:18 ... But you can't do this without a privacy infrastructure. 19:13:31 "IETF RAI and APP concerns about location privacy " 19:15:16 danc: Concerns about phone/location privacy are on the upcoming teleconference. 19:16:43 TO MINUTES EDITOR: work "geopriv" into the transcript somehow. 19:17:09 skw: Merry Christmas to all. 19:17:13 (general assent) 19:17:26 ADJOURNED 19:17:41 rrsagent, make logs public 19:17:46 rrsagent, pointer 19:17:46 See http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-tagmem-irc#T19-17-46 19:19:20 -Jonathan_Rees 19:27:53 -noah 19:27:55 -DaveO 19:27:56 -skw 19:28:10 -Norm 19:28:10 Zakim, I hung up; you still don't notice? 19:28:11 I don't understand your question, DanC. 19:28:12 Zakim, drop me 19:28:12 DanC.a is being disconnected 19:28:14 TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has ended 19:28:15 Attendees were skw, Jonathan_Rees, Norm, DanC.a, noah, DaveO