19:31:46 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg
19:31:46 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-svg-irc
19:31:48 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
19:31:48 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #svg
19:31:50 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
19:31:50 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG()2:30PM scheduled to start now
19:31:51 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
19:31:51 <trackbot> Date: 18 December 2008
19:32:40 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()2:30PM has now started
19:32:47 <Zakim> +??P0
19:32:53 <ed> Zakim, ?? is me
19:32:53 <Zakim> +ed; got it
19:33:04 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #svg
19:33:40 <Zakim> +??P1
19:34:01 <shepazu> Zakim, ??P1 is me
19:34:01 <Zakim> +shepazu; got it
19:34:13 <Zakim> +ChrisL
19:35:37 <Zakim> +??P3
19:35:39 <heycam> Zakim, ??P3 is me
19:35:39 <Zakim> +heycam; got it
19:38:13 <ed> <g clip-path="url(#clip)"><circle pointer-events="all"/></g>
19:38:45 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
19:39:13 <ed> <g clip-path="url(#clip)"><circle pointer-events="visiblePainted"/></g>
19:39:20 <shepazu> <g clip-path="url(#clip)" pointer-events="visibleStroke"><circle pointer-events="all"/></g>
19:39:22 <anthony> Zakim, [IP is me
19:39:22 <Zakim> +anthony; got it
19:42:34 <anthony> Scribe: anthony
19:42:40 <anthony> Chair: Erik
19:42:52 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Dec/0049.html
19:43:03 <anthony> Topic: Never-ending Clip Path Errata Item
19:43:23 <anthony> ED: Pasted in a link to my question
19:43:37 <anthony> ... if you have a nested SVG element that establishes a clipping viewport
19:43:48 <anthony> ... you wouldn't expect to get mouse events outside that viewport
19:43:54 <anthony> ... I think a group element would be kind of the same
19:44:05 <ed> <svg><svg><circle></svg></svg>
19:44:28 <anthony> ED: If you had that, then you say the SVG was a bit smaller and clipped the SVG a bit
19:44:34 <ed> <svg><g clip-path="url(...)"><circle></g></svg>
19:44:46 <anthony> ... I'd consider that to be similar to something like this
19:45:06 <anthony> DS: I understand why you would expect that
19:45:18 <anthony> .... but I don't think it's actually a clip path right
19:45:22 <anthony> ... it is clipped
19:45:41 <anthony> ... Because they establish a new coordinate system
19:45:53 <anthony> ... they do a number of things that clippaths do not do
19:46:25 <anthony> ... I just see them as very different things
19:46:34 <anthony> ED: I agree, but they have similarities
19:47:07 <anthony> DS: So you're saying that any clipping whether it be from the viewport establishing element or a clippath would behave similarly?
19:47:27 <anthony> ED: To me I'm seeing it like a filter
19:47:34 <anthony> ... you're clipping something
19:47:53 <anthony> ... I'd expect only the events going to that clippath
19:48:06 <anthony> ... I'd expect whatever was in the viewport to be clipped or limited by the clipping
19:48:14 <ed> s/to that clippath/through that clippath/
19:48:20 <anthony> DS: I guess it just doesn't seem intuitive to me
19:49:00 <anthony> ... You're going off the computed value. You might want to have different things have different pointer events within the same group
19:49:58 <anthony> ED: Yes. I had tests made for it already but I think it would be useful to see what implementations are doing 
19:51:39 <anthony> ... A group doesn't have a fill or stroke
19:51:44 <anthony> DS: But we are working on computed values
19:51:55 <anthony> ED: I'd like to see a couple of implementations doing one way
19:51:59 <anthony> DS: I'll make a test
19:52:46 <anthony> ACTION: Doug to Test for event clipping when the clippath is on a group
19:52:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2384 - Test for event clipping when the clippath is on a group [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-12-25].
19:53:45 <anthony> Topic: SVG 1.1 Test Suite
19:53:50 <ed> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/test/
19:53:55 <anthony> ED: I moved the tests from the old archive to the new one
19:54:07 <anthony> ... I moved latest revisions
19:54:23 <anthony> ... it turns out that diffing these tests against the 1.2 Tiny tests
19:54:32 <anthony> ... has quite a few significant changes
19:54:41 <anthony> ... one of the problems is because we use a new template
19:54:44 <anthony> ... for Tiny 1.2
19:55:00 <anthony> ... doesn't have the exact same syntax for test case descriptions
19:55:06 <anthony> ... uses xml:id - small thing
19:55:14 <anthony> ... I had hoped for something better
19:55:22 <anthony> ... just wondering what's the best way to deal with this now
19:55:49 <anthony> CL: We could XSLT out the content of the test
19:55:53 <anthony> ... all the stuff should be there
19:55:59 <anthony> ... it would be easier
19:56:09 <anthony> ... and let us focus on what the differences are
19:56:14 <anthony> ... then looking on the SVG root element
19:56:21 <anthony> ... to see what the differences are
19:56:26 <anthony> ... see if there is anything added
19:56:41 <anthony> ED: One thing I was wandering was the SVG Fonts
19:56:49 <anthony> ... we used them all over in SVG Tiny 1.2
19:56:54 <anthony> ... but not in 1.1
19:57:05 <anthony> CL: Reason for that 1.1 Tiny didn't let you use SVG Fonts
19:57:10 <anthony> ... but 1.1 Full did
19:57:17 <anthony> ... previously you had to have certain fonts installed
19:57:23 <anthony> ... and you'd get inconsistencies
19:57:30 <anthony> ... I think it should be ok to use SVG Fonts though
19:58:36 <anthony> AG: I committed the new template to the archive
19:58:50 <anthony> .. which is similar to the SVG Tiny 1.2 template
19:58:57 <anthony> ... it uses SVG Fonts
19:59:03 <anthony> ... I like Chris's idea
19:59:19 <anthony> ED: I agree we should probably use the new template everywhere
19:59:36 <anthony> ... so the question is would it be easier to make a script for it or get XSLT to do the same
19:59:56 <anthony> ... I don't really mind either way as long as the end result is the same
20:00:42 <anthony> AG: I guess it'd probably be ok to use XSLT
20:00:56 <anthony> CL: Once we have a working method for doing this
20:01:03 <anthony> ... we can just check in the new ones
20:01:12 <anthony> ... perhaps tag them before we commit the new ones
20:02:27 <anthony> ED: My action to moving the test suite and diffing the test suite
20:02:36 <anthony> ... should I close the action
20:02:44 <anthony> AG: I think that action is complete
20:02:51 <anthony> ... for this task we need a new action
20:03:08 <anthony> ED: One thing I didn't move on purpose was move the scripts directory
20:03:31 <anthony> ... I figured we'd probably only want one script to work on the test suites
20:03:43 <ed> trackbot, close ACTION-2382
20:03:44 <trackbot> ACTION-2382 Move the 1.1 tests to public cvs, checking diffs against the corresponding 1.2T tests closed
20:04:39 <ed> ACTION-2352
20:04:48 <anthony> ACTION-2352?
20:04:48 <trackbot> ACTION-2352 -- Erik Dahlström to get rid of svggen/ -- due 2008-11-27 -- OPEN
20:04:48 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2352
20:04:57 <anthony> ED: I guess I can continue my current action to try to rip out stuff from the old scripts and try to merge with the new ones
20:05:15 <anthony> ... I'll add a note to that action saying that's also about merging the scripts
20:05:38 <anthony> AG: Keep in mind when you merge the scripts to base it on the new template
20:08:02 <anthony> ACTION: Anthony to Make an XSLT to change the template of the 1.1 tests to the new one
20:08:02 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2385 - Make an XSLT to change the template of the 1.1 tests to the new one [on Anthony Grasso - due 2008-12-25].
20:10:59 <anthony> Topic: Name Change of SVG Tiny 1.2
20:11:13 <anthony> DS: I emailed Bitflash and Ikivo off list
20:11:17 <anthony> ... they did respond
20:11:32 <ed> s/clipped the SVG a bit/clipped the circle a bit/
20:11:50 <anthony> DS: Bitflash - didn't like the change for marketing reasons. They didn't want to confuse their customers
20:12:06 <anthony> ... Ikivo - didn't mind the name chage however they didn't want anything to slow down publication
20:12:35 <anthony> ... We have a commitment to JIS but also to OMA and JSR and they are counting on SVG Tiny being published as soon as possible
20:12:47 <ed> s/ED: Yes. I had tests made for it already but/ED: /
20:13:13 <anthony> ... JSR already references SVG Tiny 1.2
20:13:32 <anthony> CL: I suggested that we clarify in the status of the document
20:13:45 <anthony> ... we should clarify this relationship
20:13:56 <anthony> ... and say that future versions of this will be called Core
20:14:16 <anthony> ... and not Tiny
20:16:04 <anthony> AG: Canon thinks that it is important to change the name
20:16:56 <anthony> DS: I understand Canon's position but I'm also concerned about the positions of the other members
20:26:42 <Zakim> +??P4
20:27:07 <anthony> Zakim, ??P4 is jwatt
20:27:07 <Zakim> +jwatt; got it
20:28:07 <anthony> Topic: Errata Items
20:28:18 <ed> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/errata/errata.xml
20:30:48 <ed> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/errata/errata.xml#svgzoomevent-interface
20:32:17 <shepazu> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Dec/0049.html
20:34:10 <anthony> ED: First one is the Zoom Event interface
20:34:24 <anthony> ... Reported by JWatt
20:34:31 <anthony> ... I think we were almost decided on this one
20:35:05 <anthony> AG: I remember making the changes for it, but Andrew had an action to investigate something relating to it
20:35:13 <anthony> ED: So it might something in Tiny?
20:35:17 <anthony> AG: I can't remember
20:35:24 <anthony> ED: SVGZoom is an Event in SVG Tiny
20:35:34 <anthony> ... it's a Mouse event
20:36:11 <ed> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/interact.html
20:36:26 <ed> s/Mouse event/Event/
20:36:36 <anthony> ... there's no corresponding DOM2 category in SVG 1.1
20:36:45 <ed> ...for SVGZoom
20:37:06 <anthony> ED: So they do seem to be slightly different
20:37:25 <ed> interface SVGZoomEvent : events::UIEvent { 
20:37:25 <ed>     readonly attribute SVGRect zoomRectScreen;
20:37:25 <ed>     readonly attribute float previousScale;
20:37:25 <ed>     readonly attribute SVGPoint previousTranslate;
20:37:26 <ed>     readonly attribute float newScale;
20:37:26 <ed>     readonly attribute SVGPoint newTranslate;
20:37:28 <ed>   };
20:38:06 <anthony> ED: This is what the IDL says not what the table in the interactivity section says
20:38:35 <anthony> CM: DOM2 Category doesn't always need to correspond to the interface
20:38:40 <anthony> ... but it would be better if they did
20:39:28 <anthony> ED: Is it necessary that the Zoom event to inherit form the UI event
20:39:39 <anthony> ... one way to inherit just from event
20:39:59 <anthony> ... just wondering if there is anything in UI Event that is needed
20:40:03 <anthony> CM: View perhaps
20:40:07 <anthony> ... you need a particular view
20:40:10 <anthony> ... not useful
20:40:17 <anthony> DS: I guess that's fair enough
20:40:30 <anthony> s/DS:/EDS/
20:40:44 <shepazu> agenda+ SVG Open
20:41:18 <anthony> ED: So in Tiny 1.2 there is nothing on the SVG Zoom
20:41:26 <anthony> ... you only get the Event with the type of SVG Zoom
20:41:34 <anthony> ... but you don't have any properties like in 1.1
20:42:21 <anthony> ... the other thing is the bubbling canceling of the events because they are similar
20:43:20 <anthony> ... so that would make it a bit difficult I guess
20:43:43 <anthony> ... question is do we need to bubble or should we errata 1.2?
20:43:59 <anthony> ... I can admit to not having used Zoom events that much
20:44:07 <anthony> CL: Do we have content that depends on this?
20:44:16 <anthony> ... usually on the root element
20:44:18 <anthony> ED: Yes
20:44:29 <anthony> CL: Which kind of means it's not going anywhere
20:44:45 <anthony> DS: If I recall correctly in SVG 1.1 it's only allowed on the root
20:44:54 <anthony> ... although I could be thinking of ASV
20:45:21 <anthony> JW: That's how Mozilla does it. We don't implement zoom on anything else but the Zoom element
20:45:55 <ed> s/Zoom element/root element/
20:46:24 <jwatt> Mozilla only pays attention to attempts to set currentScale/currentTranslate on the root element
20:46:51 <anthony> DS: And that would actually correspond to how the current Zoom and current translate on nested reflect the value of the root
20:47:01 <jwatt> so trying to change them on nested <svg> elements will be ignored
20:47:17 <jwatt> i.e. we don't dispatch an SVGZoom event there
20:47:42 <anthony> ED: Sounds more like better to say that it doesn't in 1.1 to go with what we have 1.2 Tiny
20:47:46 <anthony> DS: Sounds good
20:47:57 <anthony> JW: Are there bubbling events in Tiny though?
20:48:02 <anthony> ED: Sure there are a couple of those
20:49:06 <Zakim> -shepazu
20:49:29 <ed> s/ED: Sounds more like better to say that it doesn't/ED: Sounds more like it's better to say that it doesn't bubble/
20:49:32 <jwatt> so my concern with saying that SVGZoomEvent doesn't bubble is that there could be content out there that relies on that
20:49:42 <jwatt> so things could break
20:49:50 <Zakim> +??P1
20:50:01 <shepazu> Zakim, ??P1 is me
20:50:01 <Zakim> +shepazu; got it
20:50:22 <anthony> DS: I guess that concern could be addressed by saying that event is dispatched to the outermost/rootmost element in SVG 1.1
20:50:36 <jwatt> but saying in tiny that it does bubble isn't much of a burden on tiny implementers
20:50:44 <jwatt> and avoids the risk of breaking stuff
20:50:49 <ChrisL> zakim, who is noisy?
20:51:04 <Zakim> ChrisL, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
20:51:12 <ChrisL> zakim, you suck
20:51:12 <Zakim> I don't understand 'you suck', ChrisL
20:51:54 <anthony> ED: Saying that it does bubble in Tiny at this point is a bit light I guess
20:52:00 <anthony> ... we could issue an errata
20:52:03 <ed> s/light/late/
20:53:27 <anthony> ED: I think those issues are the one we have to deal with
20:53:27 <jwatt> so I don't have a strong preference either way
20:53:33 <anthony> ... I don't think there are any more
20:53:55 <jwatt> but please use "document element", not "rootmost <svg> element"
20:54:55 <heycam> jwatt, "rootmost <svg> element" has a particular defined meaning in 1.2T
20:55:22 <anthony> ED: Document element may include an element other than SVG element
20:55:28 <anthony> ... depends on how you implement I guess
20:55:42 <anthony> ... Opera does support zooming on particular SVG graphics
20:55:49 <anthony> ... not sure how we do Zoom Events
20:57:05 <anthony> ED: We should definitely align 1.1 and 1.2
20:57:26 <anthony> CL: I agree we just need to be careful about any effects the changes my cause
20:58:23 <anthony> ED: JWatt would you like to take an action to investigate this any further
20:58:28 <anthony> JW: Sure
20:58:29 <jwatt> ja
20:58:46 <ChrisL> tracker status?
20:58:58 <ChrisL> trackbot, status?
20:59:46 <anthony> ACTION: Jonathan to Investigate the "SVGZoomEvent - Interface" errata item further
20:59:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2386 - Investigate the \"SVGZoomEvent - Interface\" errata item further [on Jonathan Watt - due 2008-12-25].
21:00:13 <ChrisL> action-2386?
21:00:14 <trackbot> ACTION-2386 -- Jonathan Watt to investigate the "SVGZoomEvent - Interface" errata item further -- due 2008-12-25 -- OPEN
21:00:14 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2386
21:00:34 <shepazu> Action: jwatt to look into Mozilla helping sponsor SVG Open
21:00:34 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2387 - Look into Mozilla helping sponsor SVG Open [on Jonathan Watt - due 2008-12-25].
21:01:11 <Zakim> -shepazu
21:01:17 <shepazu> dang skype
21:02:01 <anthony> Topic: Break
21:02:13 <anthony> ED: There will be no Telcons for the next 2 weeks
21:02:35 <anthony> ... we will have the next telcon on 5th Monday
21:02:47 <shepazu> Zakim won't let me rejoin
21:02:54 <Zakim> -ed
21:02:55 <Zakim> -ChrisL
21:03:03 <Zakim> -heycam
21:03:03 <anthony> CL: I'll still be on holidays then, but I'll back for the Thursday one
21:03:09 <Zakim> -anthony
21:03:31 <Zakim> -jwatt
21:03:32 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()2:30PM has ended
21:03:33 <Zakim> Attendees were ed, shepazu, ChrisL, heycam, [IPcaller], anthony, jwatt
21:03:45 <anthony> Zakim, bye
21:03:45 <Zakim> Zakim has left #svg
21:03:55 <anthony> RRSAgent, make minutes
21:03:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-svg-minutes.html anthony
21:17:09 <ed__> ed__ has joined #svg
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