15:46:00 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #backplane
15:46:00 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/12/16-backplane-irc
15:46:04 <CharlieWiecha> rrsagent, make logs public
15:46:13 <CharlieWiecha> Meeting: RWAB telecon
15:46:18 <CharlieWiecha> Chair: CharlieWiecha
15:46:30 <CharlieWiecha> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-app-backplane/2008Dec/0012.html
15:46:37 <CharlieWiecha> Regrets: John Boyer
15:49:45 <oedipus> oedipus has joined #backplane
15:51:42 <oedipus> rrsagent, pointer?
15:51:42 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2008/12/16-backplane-irc#T15-51-42
15:57:57 <Zakim> INC_RWAB()11:00AM has now started
15:58:06 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:58:12 <CharlieWiecha> zakim, [IBM] is CharlieWiecha
15:58:14 <Zakim> +CharlieWiecha; got it
15:59:11 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
16:02:07 <oedipus> Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
16:02:13 <oedipus> ScribeNick: oedipus
16:03:27 <jackjansen> jackjansen has joined #backplane
16:03:45 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
16:03:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/12/16-backplane-minutes.html oedipus
16:04:57 <jackjansen> Grmpf. My machine is as good as completely frozen:-( Can anyone tell me the phone# and code, please?
16:05:10 <CharlieWiecha> zakim, code?
16:05:23 <Zakim> the conference code is 7922 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), CharlieWiecha
16:05:27 <jackjansen> :-)
16:06:57 <Zakim> +??P76
16:07:00 <oedipus> regrets+ John_Boyer
16:07:09 <oedipus> regrets- John, Boyer
16:07:19 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
16:07:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/12/16-backplane-minutes.html oedipus
16:07:28 <jackjansen> zakim, p76 is me
16:07:28 <Zakim> sorry, jackjansen, I do not recognize a party named 'p76'
16:07:48 <oedipus> zakim, ??P76 is jackjansen
16:07:48 <Zakim> +jackjansen; got it
16:07:50 <jackjansen> zakim, ??P76 is me
16:07:50 <Zakim> I already had ??P76 as jackjansen, jackjansen
16:08:21 <oedipus> TOPIC: Where Do We Want to/Need to Go?
16:08:52 <oedipus> CW: participation thin; worried that not high enough priority; may be don't have a precise enough deliverable
16:09:12 <oedipus> CW: spirit of outline i circulated -- had hoped would do more technical/application work
16:09:44 <oedipus> CW: how to get prototyping ideas to "product" either real or roadmapped on wiki; who are we targetting and how to go after them
16:09:53 <oedipus> TOPIC: Target Audience
16:11:50 <oedipus> JJ: note also shows an issue i've encountered myself; on 1 level identified some areas and technologies that are out there and allow people to create RWAB; if was to create something tomorrow, would be lost -- haven't created list of what to do or roadmap "if you want to produce a RWA look here and here and here"
16:12:29 <oedipus> JJ: disconnected bag of technologies now  -- need to integrate -- here is what there is, here is how use it; then decide, document or deliverable (library) that they can relate to and use
16:13:02 <oedipus> CW: who is it we are trying to sell that to -- the implementor?  the strategist?  what level of descriptino -- conceptual or nuts-and-bolts
16:13:35 <oedipus> JJ: something Pablo reminded me is that XGs can spawn working groups; aiming for people to attract ot become members of WG
16:14:06 <oedipus> CW: never shared that feeling; my PoV is trying to connect dots; cross-cutting technologies; W3C lacks cross-cutting vision
16:14:23 <oedipus> CW: still some nuts-and-bolts oriented, but not particularly a WG
16:14:36 <oedipus> JJ: don't see clearcut WG coming out of this XG
16:14:46 <oedipus> CW: who is at center of what we are doing?
16:15:36 <oedipus> JJ: on other hand, if at end of XG life what is left is a document that shows people on various levels, where they should look for W3C and related standard techs that will help solve problems, fill needs
16:15:42 <oedipus> CW: would be quite useful;
16:16:07 <oedipus> CW: people outside industry don't know about a lot of the existing technologies; roadmap to assembly has yet to be drawn
16:16:39 <oedipus> CW: HTML container DTD; XForms controller; SVG - graphics engine; SMIL - timing mechanism; XML Events 
16:16:58 <oedipus> CW: currently each individual has to connect the dots for herself
16:17:13 <oedipus> CW: no one has assembled everything and ordered it and put lipstick on it
16:17:31 <oedipus> JJ: you are looking at it from managerial PoV
16:18:17 <oedipus> JJ: haven't had to create -- you are lead of team and have clear vision of what silverlight can do -- how to use it with scripting 
16:18:26 <oedipus> JJ: roughly follow CW's outline
16:18:42 <oedipus> JJ: also think that document on more component level would also be good to have
16:19:38 <oedipus> JJ: joe-web-designer plays with XHTML and CSS and XForms and now needs to tie together; 90% chance now that will use javascript to do what needed, when there are technologies more declaratively designed, that should be used
16:19:52 <oedipus> CW: set of patterns that are available to people in a repository that they can use
16:20:03 <oedipus> CW: a cookbook -- here is a set of read-made examples
16:20:18 <oedipus> JJ: examples before february?
16:20:32 <oedipus> CW: no; just trying to nail down our specific audience
16:20:57 <oedipus> CW: reason having conversation is because concerned that if i write the document, it will be a tree falling in the woods
16:21:57 <oedipus> JJ: cookbook may be aiming too high -- would be happy if describe each technology in a nutshell to at least encourage people to look at technology; documents such as stevenP's "XHTML for HTML Authors" -- great model; gives enough of feeling of technology to encourage it's use
16:22:07 <oedipus> CW: could be fleshed out
16:23:11 <oedipus> CW: use steveP's note as pattern
16:23:35 <oedipus> CW: timing, SVG - canvas from API PoV, but SVG promotion important
16:24:33 <oedipus> JJ: both SVG and XForms have disadvantage that they are small technology that does one thing; big specs but tackling limited set of questions; we are tackling a huge questio, should show when 5 ways of doing something appropriate using standards/W3C based techs
16:24:49 <oedipus> JJ: now that we are talking, though wondering if should do a demo app?
16:25:07 <oedipus> CW: was going to say that -- best way to lead authors to info they need
16:25:46 <oedipus> GJR: danbri and i are going to ARIA enable OpenSocial to make a virtual visually impaired computer users group - could incorporate other techs
16:26:13 <oedipus> CW: can't really pin them down; big picture not compelling
16:26:39 <oedipus> JJ: in a way, people are right; each technology in its own field is nice, but conflicts with other techs; we should emphasize integration
16:27:04 <oedipus> JJ: over past year become convinced that have something nice for integration, but how to communicate to outside world that helps real people solve real issues
16:27:45 <oedipus> CW: integration is the core part; not just "piling on" specs, but mixing technologies; not widget, but single document with data, controller, SVG -- blend of technologies
16:28:25 <oedipus> JJ: demo app -- aiming for complex demo apps because in real life will be using these things in complex situatns, but shouldn't we be shaping world what a rich web app IS
16:28:52 <oedipus> JJ: show in such a way that integration present and professional can realize integration issues herre -- if do in flash, will become inaccessible 
16:29:08 <oedipus> CW: break down integration problem into series of rich fragments
16:29:22 <oedipus> CW: comes back to patterns idea; illustrate aspects of integration
16:29:33 <oedipus> JJ: how to add timing to group of controls
16:29:42 <oedipus> CW: how to add validation to a group of data items
16:29:59 <oedipus> s/JJ:/CW: as JJ said, 
16:30:27 <oedipus> JJ: where we shine is integration; should aim for something - single app that shows everything, even if just a toy app
16:30:45 <oedipus> CW: built out of progressive exposure; break down into components
16:30:48 <oedipus> JJ: depends on app
16:31:17 <oedipus> CW: how one explains what it is itself - look at from data PoV, control PoV, timing integration
16:31:39 <oedipus> JJ: somebody came up with app
16:31:44 <oedipus> GJR: virtual weather station
16:32:33 <oedipus> GJR: could work with professor who proposed it; use student's work
16:32:40 <oedipus> CW: harvest out of them best practice
16:32:45 <oedipus> CW: separate or collaborate
16:32:53 <oedipus> GJR: that would be up to you as chair
16:34:19 <oedipus> GJR: can contact prof and ascertain what stage is at what doing
16:34:54 <oedipus> ACTION: Gregory - contact proffesor about virtual SVG weather station
16:35:28 <oedipus> CW: if do this, any chairs of existing WGs at W3C pay attention to it? any AJAX authors pay attention to it?
16:36:25 <oedipus> CW: IG may come out of this work to perform evangelizing
16:36:29 <oedipus> GJR: plus one
16:37:38 <oedipus> GJR: explains SVGIG aggregator site
16:38:36 <oedipus> CW: shoot for jump-starting content with IG proposal - what would attract people
16:38:45 <oedipus> CW: example app needs to be motivating
16:39:41 <oedipus> JJ: why not implement server side -- what is advantage of serving as app
16:40:02 <oedipus> GJR: if i were to implement in real life, i would definitely handle things server side
16:41:06 <oedipus> JJ: data aggregating is anonymous data - GPS position - if need data from source a and data from  source b but don't want the one to know i'm using the other...
16:42:23 <oedipus> JJ: reason to do web app is combining data from 2 sources: information on bank account should be secure, info about another private source (a store) don't want bank to harvest purchasing habits and don't want store to know banking bussiness would do
16:42:30 <oedipus> as web app
16:42:42 <oedipus> CW: downside: not much input flavor
16:42:57 <oedipus> CW: not capturing input, or serving rich data
16:43:26 <oedipus> CW: leave app choice to later; if trying to populate IG as outcome of XG, what would be tools IG should maintain
16:43:36 <oedipus> GJR: aggregation site like planetsvg.com
16:43:55 <oedipus> CW: motivate people to participate, have to have something to spark their interest
16:44:09 <oedipus> CW: would really like to build something
16:44:30 <oedipus> JJ: thinking of apps, should we think of a game?
16:44:50 <oedipus> JJ: simple games have a bit of secrecy -- info don't want to reveal to peers
16:44:57 <oedipus> GJR: like JJ's idea
16:45:03 <oedipus> CW: input as well as output
16:45:16 <oedipus> CW: could start with "game" broadly as generalization
16:45:36 <oedipus> CW: multiple server side pieces, multiple client side pieces, distributed devices
16:46:14 <oedipus> JJ: virtual world games logic done centrally, rendering done client side; want ability to "hide" what you are doing locally
16:46:22 <oedipus> JJ: direct feedback equal better user experience
16:46:40 <oedipus> CW: lot of potential
16:47:30 <oedipus> GJR: very good idea - timing of actions in game 
16:47:38 <oedipus> CW: what would be good game to model
16:48:19 <oedipus> JJ: strong point of RWA as opposed to Flash and on the other hand organization wide server-side, client-side; strong points of solution? can we think of game that highlights strong points?
16:49:01 <oedipus> CW: game requirements: countdown timer, ability to move around, ARIA live regions, mash-up
16:50:39 <oedipus> GJR: talks about danbri and openSocial - will post more to list
16:50:51 <oedipus> CW: richness of open social?
16:51:46 <oedipus> CW: think about OpenSocial, games 
16:51:56 <oedipus> GJR: OpenSocial probably a longer term project
16:52:10 <oedipus> CW: discuss potential of games on list
16:52:17 <oedipus> JJ: upcoming meetings?
16:52:24 <oedipus> CW: this will be last of year
16:52:40 <oedipus> JJ: can do next week, but not week after
16:52:50 <oedipus> CW: take poll on list - if not, then sixth
16:52:57 <Zakim> -jackjansen
16:53:00 <jackjansen> jackjansen has left #backplane
16:53:06 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
16:53:08 <Zakim> -CharlieWiecha
16:53:08 <oedipus> ADJOURN
16:53:09 <Zakim> INC_RWAB()11:00AM has ended
16:53:11 <Zakim> Attendees were CharlieWiecha, Gregory_Rosmaita, jackjansen
16:53:21 <oedipus> zakim, please part
16:53:21 <Zakim> Zakim has left #backplane
16:53:27 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
16:53:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/12/16-backplane-minutes.html oedipus
16:53:48 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
16:53:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/12/16-backplane-minutes.html oedipus
17:06:41 <oedipus> rrsagent, please part
17:06:41 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/16-backplane-actions.rdf :
17:06:41 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Gregory - contact proffesor about virtual SVG weather station [1]
17:06:41 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/16-backplane-irc#T16-34-54