17:49:08 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ua
17:49:08 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/12/11-ua-irc
17:49:10 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
17:49:10 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #ua
17:49:12 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
17:49:12 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 11 minutes
17:49:13 <trackbot> Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
17:49:13 <trackbot> Date: 11 December 2008
17:49:14 <AllanJ> AllanJ has joined #ua
17:49:33 <sharper> chair: Allan_James
17:49:49 <sharper> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008OctDec/0075.html
17:49:49 <sharper> scribe: Harper_Simon
17:49:50 <sharper> ScribeNick: sharper
17:50:02 <sharper> meeting: User Agent Working Group Telecon: 11 Dec 2008
17:50:23 <sharper> agenda+ Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)? 
17:50:23 <sharper> agenda+ Review Survey Items http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/
17:50:23 <sharper> agenda+ Group work: Continue Reviewing Guideline 3.4, 3.5, 3.6 for clarity and syntax. 
17:50:23 <sharper> agenda+ Review Action Item status http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/open
17:50:23 <sharper> agenda+ Winter Holiday meetings.
17:50:47 <sharper> zakim, save agenda
17:50:54 <Zakim> ok, sharper, the agenda has been written to http://www.w3.org/2008/12/11-ua-agenda.rdf
17:51:50 <sharper> present+ Allan_James
17:51:57 <sharper> present+ Harper_Simon
17:58:29 <sharper> Call-in: Zakim bridge at: +1-617-761-6200, code 82941# for UK use
17:58:30 <sharper> 44-117-370-6152
17:59:21 <Zakim> WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
17:59:28 <Zakim> +??P3
17:59:31 <sharper> zakim, ??P3 is sharper
17:59:31 <Zakim> +sharper; got it
18:01:02 <Zakim> +Cantor
18:01:36 <Zakim> +Jim_Allan
18:02:16 <sharper> present+ Cantor_Alan
18:03:04 <jeanne> jeanne has joined #ua
18:03:10 <jeanne> zakim, code?
18:03:10 <Zakim> the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jeanne
18:03:19 <Zakim> +Jeanne_Spellman
18:03:39 <sharper> present+ Spellman_Jeanne
18:03:45 <judy> judy has joined #ua
18:03:58 <judy> zakim, dial judy-office
18:03:58 <Zakim> ok, judy; the call is being made
18:04:00 <Zakim> +Judy
18:04:04 <sharper> present+ Brewer_Judy
18:05:13 <sharper> present- Brewer_Judy
18:05:25 <sharper> regrets+ Brewer_Judy
18:05:30 <Zakim> -Judy
18:11:01 <sharper> zakim, open item 5
18:11:01 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Winter Holiday meetings." taken up [from sharper]
18:11:48 <jeanne> zakim, agenda?
18:11:48 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
18:11:50 <Zakim> 1. Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)? [from sharper]
18:11:52 <Zakim> 2. Review Survey Items http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/ [from sharper]
18:11:55 <Zakim> 3. Group work: Continue Reviewing Guideline 3.4, 3.5, 3.6 for clarity and syntax. [from sharper]
18:11:57 <Zakim> 4. Review Action Item status http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/open [from sharper]
18:11:58 <Zakim> 5. Winter Holiday meetings. [from sharper]
18:12:14 <sharper> AllanJ: Proposes that we have 1 more meeting before Christmas, skipping 2 weeks and pick up on 08th Jan 2008.
18:13:20 <Alan> Alan has joined #ua
18:13:43 <sharper> RESOLVED:  Next meeting 18th Dec 2008, Meeting after 08th Jan 2009.
18:13:52 <Jeanne_> Jeanne_ has joined #ua
18:13:57 <sharper> zakim, close item 5
18:13:57 <Zakim> agendum 5, Winter Holiday meetings., closed
18:13:58 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:13:59 <Zakim> 1. Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)? [from sharper]
18:14:13 <sharper> zakim, next item
18:14:13 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?" taken up [from sharper]
18:14:19 <Alan> Hey!
18:16:12 <sharper> zakim, close item 1
18:16:12 <Zakim> agendum 1, Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?, closed
18:16:12 <sharper> zakim, next item
18:16:13 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:16:15 <Zakim> 2. Review Survey Items http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/ [from sharper]
18:16:16 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Review Survey Items http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/" taken up [from sharper]
18:17:10 <sharper> topic: Proposed Rewording of 3.3.1
18:17:25 <sharper> Old: 3.3.1 Relationships Available Programmatically: Make explicitly-defined relationships in the content (e.g., labeled_by, table_header_for, etc.) available programmatically. (Level A)
18:17:35 <sharper> Proposed: Text is fine but should be moved to Principle 2.
18:17:37 <jeanne> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20081209/
18:18:19 <sharper> Results: 2 Accept, 2 Neutral (will accept), 1 need discussion (Richards_Jan: I think maybe this is a technique of 2.1.2)
18:19:11 <AllanJ> 3.3.1 Relationships Available Programmatically: Make explicitly-defined relationships in the content (e.g., labeled_by, table_header_for, etc.) available programmatically. (Level A)
18:19:14 <sharper> AllanJ: Sounds the same 
18:19:24 <AllanJ> 2.1.2 Name, Role, State, Value, Description: For all user interface components including the user interface and rendered content, make available the name, role, state, value, and description via an accessibility platform architecture.
18:20:17 <sharper> AllanJ: could live with 3.3.1 being removed and keeping 2.1.2
18:20:54 <sharper> Jeanne: agree (2.1.2 more specific) 3.3.1 (very HTML'y)
18:25:58 <sharper> All: General Discussion regarding roles - covered by 2.1.2 (role would include relationship information ), something separate is not required, need techniques.
18:26:45 <sharper> RESOLVED: 3.3.1 to be removed as it is part of 2.1.2
18:27:08 <jeanne> action: JS to delete 3.3.1 from the draft because it is included in 2.1.2
18:27:08 <trackbot> Created ACTION-100 - Delete 3.3.1 from the draft because it is included in 2.1.2 [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-12-18].
18:27:31 <sharper> topic: Proposed Rewording of 3.3.2
18:28:01 <sharper> existing: 3.3.2 Access Relationships: The user can access information from explicitly-defined relationships in the content (e.g., what is form control's label?, what is label's form control?, what is cell's table header?, etc.). (Level A)
18:28:34 <sharper> proposed: 3.3.2 Access Relationships: The user can access information from explicitly-defined relationships in the content using a globally defined key combination and based on the current focus of the interface.
18:28:53 <sharper> results: 2 accept, 1 recommend change (AllanJ - Is this (globally defined key combination) another setting for the user? or, can the UA just provide a key. Redefining keys is covered else where. "based on the current focus" - we need a different term. Elements that can receive focus are limited (links, form controls, etc.) information in a table cell generally does not receive focus. I think the original language just needs a tweak, and leave the how to accompl
18:28:53 <sharper> <proposed>
18:28:53 <sharper> 3.3.2 Access Relationships: Provide the user access to explicitly-defined relationships in the content (e.g., what is form control's label?, what is label's form control?, what are a cell's table headers?, etc.). (Level A)
18:28:55 <sharper> </proposed>), 2 needs more discussion (Richards_Jan - would like at least one example. I'm wondering what is added by the key combo bit...keyboard access is handled elsewhere. / Ford_Kelly - do not understand the rewording, in particular the part about a globally defined key combination. Are you saying all browsers should have some hotkey to determine form label or exactly what are you asking a vendor to do here?)
18:30:15 <sharper> AllanJ: Needs Discussion
18:31:35 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
18:32:19 <AllanJ> sh: wasn't thinking about the programattic focus...more where the user is 'looking at' - cursor browsing.
18:32:54 <sharper> present+ Ford_Kelly
18:33:06 <KFord> KFord has joined #ua
18:33:17 <AllanJ> SH: current wording doesn't specify which relationships...could be all spoken at once.
18:34:15 <jeanne> zakim, [Micro is really KFord
18:34:15 <Zakim> +KFord; got it
18:34:49 <jeanne> zakim, who is here?
18:34:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see sharper, Cantor, Jim_Allan, Jeanne_Spellman, KFord
18:34:50 <Zakim> On IRC I see KFord, Alan, judy, jeanne, AllanJ, Zakim, RRSAgent, sharper, trackbot
18:37:27 <jeanne> http://www.w3.org/ has it in the News column. Top article. Let me know if you can't find it.  I'll bring it to the web site team.
18:38:51 <AllanJ> KF: you want the browser to provide the access to relationships without the need of assistive technology
18:39:37 <AllanJ> SH: want to specify it is based on user view point...specific element
18:42:35 <AllanJ> JA: use case of TV guide
18:43:16 <AllanJ> KF: can think of many examples where screenreader users have better access. do all users need this level of access.
18:47:01 <Zakim> -Cantor
18:49:04 <sharper> All: General Discussion around the global key combination aspects and the term 'focus'.
18:49:25 <sharper> AllanJ: Wordsmithing in action
18:49:54 <AllanJ> 3.3.2 Access Relationships: The user can access information from explicitly-defined relationships in the content based on users point-of-regard  (e.g., what is form control's label?, what is label's form control?, what is cell's table header?, etc.). (Level A)
18:51:16 <AllanJ> better?? 3.3.2 Access Relationships: Based on the users point-of-regard, provide the user access to explicitly-defined relationships in the content (e.g., what is form control's label?, what is label's form control?, what are a cell's table headers?, etc.). (Level A)
18:57:16 <sharper> All: Use AllanJ's first version, with additional examples to clarify, and techniques in support. 
18:57:43 <AllanJ> >	3.3.2 Access Relationships: The user can access information from explicitly-defined relationships in the content based on users point-of-regard (e.g., show form control's label?, show label's form control?, show a cell's table header?, etc.). (Level A)
18:59:36 <AllanJ> 3.3.2 Access Relationships: Based on the user's point-of-regard, provide the user access information from explicitly-defined relationships in the content based on users point-of-regard (e.g., show form control's label, show label's form control, show a cell's table header, etc.). (Level A)
19:03:11 <AllanJ> KF: problem with "point of regard"
19:03:32 <AllanJ> 3.3.2 Access Relationships: Based on the user's position in content, provide the user access information from explicitly-defined relationships in the content based on users point-of-regard (e.g., show form control's label, show label's form control, show a cell's table header, etc.). (Level A)
19:04:25 <AllanJ> 3.3.2 Access Relationships: Based on the user's position in content, provide the user access to explicitly-defined relationships in the content based (e.g., show form control's label, show label's form control, show a cell's table header, etc.). (Level A)
19:06:23 <AllanJ> 3.3.2 Access Relationships: Provide access to explicitly-defined relationships based on the user's position in content (e.g., show form control's label, show label's form control, show a cell's table headers, etc.). (Level A)
19:07:26 <sharper> regrets+ Richards_Jan
19:07:54 <sharper> RESOLVED: Adopt this last version (19:06)
19:08:20 <jeanne> action: JS to update draft with new wording for 3.3.2 Access Relationships: Provide access to explicitly-defined relationships based on the user's position in content (e.g., show form control's label, show label's form control, show a cell's table headers, etc.). (Level A)
19:08:20 <trackbot> Created ACTION-101 - Update draft with new wording for 3.3.2 Access Relationships: Provide access to explicitly-defined relationships based on the user's position in content (e.g., show form control's label, show label's form control, show a cell's table headers, etc.). (Level A) [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-12-18].
19:09:48 <sharper> regrets+ Hakkinen_Mark
19:09:57 <sharper> topic: Proposed definition for "non-Web-based"
19:10:05 <sharper> proposed: user agent user interface (non-Web-Based) Any components of a user agent user interface that runs directly on a non-user agent platform such as Windows, MacOS, Java Virtual Machine, etc. Base browsers are always non-Web-Based.
19:10:20 <sharper> results: 1 Accept / 4 Needs Discussion
19:10:21 <sharper> Poehlman_David: what does this mean?
19:10:21 <sharper> Harper_Simon: How does this phrasing handle say XUI or Components generated from the content? In Mozilla content such as the fragment below rendered as part of the 'chrome' menu.
19:10:21 <sharper> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN"
19:10:22 <sharper> "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">
19:10:22 <sharper> <HTML>
19:10:24 <sharper> <HEAD>
19:10:26 <sharper> <TITLE>Chapter 2</TITLE>
19:10:28 <sharper> <LINK rel="Index" href="../index.html">
19:10:31 <sharper> <LINK rel="Next" href="Chapter3.html">
19:10:33 <sharper> <LINK rel="Prev" href="Chapter1.html">
19:10:34 <sharper> </HEAD>
19:10:36 <sharper> ...the rest of the document...
19:10:39 <sharper> Allan_Jim: What??? lack of punctuation and line breaks make parsing very difficult....after much brain sweating. Ah Ha! It makes sense. It is any component of the UA interface that runs directly on the native operating system. User agents run on top of operating systems (Windows, unix, whatever is in phones, etc.) <proposed>User-Agent user interface (non-Web-Based): Any components of a user agent user interface that runs directly on an operating system, such as
19:10:44 <sharper> Ford_Kelly: What happens when the UI is generated from web content? For example an extension to the browser frame that is based on HTML or another web-based content source?
19:11:10 <Zakim> -sharper
19:11:19 <sharper> scribe: Allan_Jim
19:11:42 <sharper> ScribeNick: AllanJ
19:19:53 <judy> judy has left #ua
19:25:23 <Zakim> -KFord
19:30:06 <jeanne> action: js to update draft to assign level A to all SC in 2.1
19:30:06 <trackbot> Created ACTION-102 - Update draft to assign level A to all SC in 2.1 [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-12-18].
19:32:54 <Zakim> -Jim_Allan
19:32:55 <Zakim> -Jeanne_Spellman
19:32:55 <Zakim> WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
19:32:56 <Zakim> Attendees were sharper, Cantor, Jim_Allan, Jeanne_Spellman, Judy, [Microsoft], KFord
19:33:16 <jeanne> rrsagent, make logs public
19:33:22 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
19:33:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/12/11-ua-minutes.html jeanne
19:35:38 <jeanne> zakim, bye
19:35:38 <Zakim> Zakim has left #ua
19:35:45 <jeanne> rrsagent, bye
19:35:45 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/11-ua-actions.rdf :
19:35:45 <RRSAgent> ACTION: JS to delete 3.3.1 from the draft because it is included in 2.1.2 [1]
19:35:45 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/11-ua-irc#T18-27-08
19:35:45 <RRSAgent> ACTION: JS to update draft with new wording for 3.3.2 Access Relationships: Provide access to explicitly-defined relationships based on the user's position in content (e.g., show form control's label, show label's form control, show a cell's table headers, etc.). (Level A) [2]
19:35:45 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/11-ua-irc#T19-08-20
19:35:45 <RRSAgent> ACTION: js to update draft to assign level A to all SC in 2.1 [3]
19:35:45 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/11-ua-irc#T19-30-06