IRC log of svg on 2008-12-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

19:31:21 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #svg
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/12/11-svg-irc
19:31:23 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
19:31:23 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #svg
19:31:25 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
19:31:25 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG()2:30PM scheduled to start now
19:31:26 [trackbot]
Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
19:31:26 [trackbot]
Date: 11 December 2008
19:31:33 [ChrisL]
ChrisL has joined #svg
19:32:03 [Zakim]
GA_SVGWG()2:30PM has now started
19:32:09 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
19:32:11 [Zakim]
+??P3
19:32:28 [Zakim]
+??P10
19:32:30 [ed]
Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
19:32:30 [Zakim]
+ed; got it
19:32:31 [heycam]
Zakim, ??P10 is me
19:32:31 [Zakim]
+heycam; got it
19:32:57 [anthony]
Zakim, ??P3 is me
19:32:57 [Zakim]
+anthony; got it
19:33:01 [Zakim]
+Shepazu
19:33:52 [Zakim]
+ +95249aaaa
19:34:40 [shepazu]
Zakim, +95249aaaa is ChrisL
19:34:40 [Zakim]
+ChrisL; got it
19:35:06 [ed]
Zakim, pick a victim
19:35:06 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose anthony
19:35:25 [ed]
Zakim, pick a victim
19:35:25 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose ChrisL
19:35:34 [ChrisL]
scribe: ChrisL
19:35:49 [shepazu]
scribeNick: ChrisL
19:36:00 [ChrisL]
Topic: HTML5
19:36:00 [ed]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008OctDec/0420.html
19:36:44 [ChrisL]
(taking comments one by one)
19:37:07 [ChrisL]
ED: is it good to collect high level goals?
19:37:20 [ChrisL]
CcC:Yes, it halps as long as they are not too abstract
19:37:40 [ChrisL]
s/CcC/CMcC/
19:37:55 [ChrisL]
ED: Suggested rewording avout remaining in XML
19:40:12 [ChrisL]
CL: Main aim was that folks using existing xml would not need to change it to copy and paste
19:40:38 [ChrisL]
DS: Henri said that nonwelformed XML should be exposed as WF by the browser after correction
19:41:24 [ChrisL]
CMcC: the later ones are higher level goals
19:41:50 [ChrisL]
DS: So rearrange, and put this one as a consequence. Say why, and then it naturally falls out
19:42:07 [ChrisL]
CMcC: that more convincing, yes
19:42:57 [ChrisL]
ED: neither mail captures what we want
19:43:56 [ChrisL]
CL: Not sure we should push on validity. Well formed is more important
19:44:06 [ChrisL]
ED: Want the fixups to be arked as errors
19:44:29 [ChrisL]
CMcC: No implied elements, would restrict ability to change the language
19:45:46 [ChrisL]
CMcC: Parser will need to fix up idf the end tag is wrong
19:47:35 [ChrisL]
CL: At TPAC, agreement that the doctype etc would not be pasted in
19:48:13 [ChrisL]
DS: Until there are tools, they will not understand why its not working. Paste in direct from illustrator and inkscape
19:49:51 [ChrisL]
DS: Need to ediucate people on what is allowed, some are allowed within XHTL, others within HTML
19:50:06 [ChrisL]
CL: No doctype etc in the middle, obviously
19:50:16 [ChrisL]
CMcC: Some examples in my mail
19:52:44 [ChrisL]
CL: Entities are kind of a transitional phase, just use Unicode nowadays
19:53:20 [ChrisL]
AG: Omitted quotes is abad idea because with complex syntax its not always clear where the attribute value ends
19:54:23 [ChrisL]
DS: Lots of attrs take space-less strings and would be fine here, and would be error corrected
19:55:11 [ChrisL]
<g title=a space string /> with orr characters/>
19:55:27 [ChrisL]
CMcC: This is error correction?
19:55:36 [ChrisL]
ED: Not in HTML5, its not an error
19:56:01 [ChrisL]
DS: Effect is the same.
19:56:21 [ChrisL]
... depends whether it reports an error or not
19:56:53 [ChrisL]
AG: I think its inconsistent
19:57:47 [ChrisL]
DS: Should be flagged as an error to help people who are trying to do standalone svg
19:58:24 [ChrisL]
... need to be aware of quoting html5 quirks. makes it harder to adapt content
19:58:41 [ChrisL]
CMcC: Fixed up export helps there
19:58:44 [ChrisL]
DS: yes
19:59:11 [ChrisL]
DS: But mashups, not using a browser, would be effected
20:01:05 [ChrisL]
... concerned that people have svg-like files, they download the file and try to open in an authoring tool and it does not work. They don't know why
20:02:05 [ChrisL]
AG: An artist will understand right click, save as, and then open the file
20:03:48 [ChrisL]
CL: If browsers do silent fixup then there will be svg files that are not well formed and cannot be edited
20:05:57 [ChrisL]
DS: This is why I said it should be seen as error correction
20:07:01 [ChrisL]
... no 'visible indication of error' but a log would show a warning
20:07:12 [ChrisL]
... eg in a validator
20:07:35 [ChrisL]
CL: Warning is very reasonable.
20:09:31 [ChrisL]
DS: Would not be surprised to see xml allow this also in the next 5 years
20:11:40 [ChrisL]
DS: SVG requires quotes
20:12:35 [ChrisL]
DS: Its ok as long as its acknowledged as error correction
20:13:14 [ChrisL]
ED: Perhaps we should discuss these in email
20:15:51 [ChrisL]
CMcC: Henri made a fork of Mozilla that uses the old HTML handling of SVG
20:16:24 [heycam]
http://about.validator.nu/htmlparser/
20:16:32 [heycam]
sorry not that url
20:16:41 [heycam]
http://hsivonen.iki.fi/html5-gecko-build/
20:17:47 [ChrisL]
Topic: Vacation break
20:17:55 [ChrisL]
CL: here next week then off two weeks
20:18:13 [shepazu]
http://www.intertwingly.net/blog/
20:18:13 [ChrisL]
AG: Working to Xmas, then off to 13 jan
20:18:28 [ChrisL]
DS: Working holiday
20:19:30 [ChrisL]
CMcC: next week ok?
20:20:14 [ChrisL]
(agreement seems to be to cancel from22 and restart from 5 Jan
20:20:49 [ChrisL]
ACTIN: Erik announce the xmas break
20:21:00 [ChrisL]
ACTION: Erik to announce the xmas break
20:21:00 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2377 - Announce the xmas break [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-12-18].
20:21:39 [ChrisL]
Topic: Selectors review
20:21:44 [ed]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2008OctDec/0465.html
20:21:48 [ChrisL]
ED: Some feedback from lachlan
20:22:57 [ChrisL]
CL: Important thing is that the spec now clearly states that ns functionality is not there. So thats good
20:23:19 [ChrisL]
ED: Node selector text is also improved
20:24:14 [ChrisL]
... I mentioned some potential non-interop, and he pushed back. i'm happy to drop those. Selectors on subtrees outside the document will not be interoperable however
20:24:39 [ChrisL]
... on list creation, its not very precise but its ok i guess
20:25:17 [ChrisL]
... mention of downlevel clients sparked some discussion
20:25:44 [ChrisL]
... refuses to add a DOM3 xpath informative reference
20:27:35 [ChrisL]
DS: Sicking makes good points
20:27:48 [ChrisL]
ED: On last issue he says he is reconsidering adding an example
20:28:40 [ChrisL]
ACTION: Erik to respond to Lachlan on selectors api review
20:28:40 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2378 - Respond to Lachlan on selectors api review [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-12-18].
20:28:58 [ChrisL]
Topic: clipping
20:29:46 [ChrisL]
DS: Not fully convinced by Thomas' argument. Seems to conflate clipping paths with viewports?
20:30:06 [ChrisL]
CcC: No, his example is a viewport one but he understands the difference
20:30:55 [ChrisL]
s/CcC/CMcC/g
20:31:58 [ChrisL]
... he brought in viewports and an example of something that clipped out pointer events
20:33:42 [ChrisL]
CL: Consider a symbol, which has a clippath. The pointer events are clipped in the other three quadrants unless overflow is enabled
20:33:56 [ChrisL]
DS: And with visiblePainted, thats what you get
20:34:54 [heycam]
http://mcc.id.au/temp/2008/clip-window.svg
20:36:32 [ChrisL]
DS: Rules fr clip paths apply. Clip paths do not clip events al the time, depends on value of pointer events. Whie whena vireewport is established, events are always clipped itrtespective of the value
20:37:28 [ChrisL]
.. asv clips the events no matter what. safari clips no events at all
20:37:43 [ChrisL]
CcC: Proposal changes =it to allow either clipping or not
20:37:50 [ChrisL]
DS: Under author control
20:38:31 [ChrisL]
CMcC: Thomas' concern is that people have existing content that depends on this. But behaviour is not fully defined in spec.
20:39:18 [ChrisL]
DS: Is this a real use case?
20:39:34 [ChrisL]
CMcC: yes, its how people create invisible event targets now
20:40:26 [ChrisL]
... but there are workarounds
20:41:14 [ChrisL]
DS: So I don't think this combination is very common as there are better and more direct ways to do this
20:44:35 [ChrisL]
ED: Interesting to hear Mozilla view on this, would liked to have asked JWatt or RoC
20:44:55 [ChrisL]
ACTION: Doug ask Mozilla about this clipping issue
20:44:55 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2379 - Ask Mozilla about this clipping issue [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-12-18].
20:45:26 [ChrisL]
ED: Wonder how much content uses clip path plus pointer-events nondefault values
20:46:08 [ChrisL]
topic: new template for 1.1 tests
20:46:21 [ed]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008OctDec/0423.html
20:49:53 [ChrisL]
DS: If we make a schema we could have the validator at W3C be more useful
20:50:52 [ChrisL]
CL: oXygen ships with a 1.1F XSD, we should get them to add an SVGT1.2 RBG as well
20:51:17 [ChrisL]
DS: No need for an xml prolog
20:52:20 [ChrisL]
CL: Apart from non UTF-8, UTF-16, no need for an xml encoding declaration
20:52:36 [ChrisL]
Resolved: New 1.1F template has no doctype and no xml declaration
20:53:46 [ChrisL]
(we agree that having one template is a good goal derived versions can be made with xslt)
20:54:56 [ChrisL]
(discussion on version and baseProfile desirability in tests)
20:55:49 [ChrisL]
CL: version and baseProfile should only be aded where actually needed. most tests do not require it
20:56:38 [ChrisL]
... and i agree about the 'approved' value, never understood why that had a different value
20:57:26 [ChrisL]
ED; There was a distinction between approved an=d accepted, which was that it was published for the public. Used to be a list. Now its autogenerated
20:58:23 [ChrisL]
CL: Only downside is some (small) changes to the scripts
20:59:09 [ChrisL]
ACTION: Anthony to look through scripts for any breakage that would happen from conflating approved and accepted
20:59:09 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2380 - Look through scripts for any breakage that would happen from conflating approved and accepted [on Anthony Grasso - due 2008-12-18].
21:00:04 [ChrisL]
ED: Need to clarify what to do when dropping a test back to reviewed or created
21:00:43 [ChrisL]
Resolved: the approved and accepted should be one value
21:01:08 [ChrisL]
ED: Wonder if there are tests which are accepted but not approved
21:04:04 [ChrisL]
zakim, list participants
21:04:04 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been ed, heycam, anthony, Shepazu, ChrisL
21:04:24 [ChrisL]
meeting adjourned
21:04:43 [Zakim]
-anthony
21:04:45 [Zakim]
-ChrisL
21:04:46 [Zakim]
-heycam
21:04:50 [Zakim]
-ed
21:04:51 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, make minutes
21:04:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/12/11-svg-minutes.html ChrisL
21:05:11 [Zakim]
-Shepazu
21:05:13 [Zakim]
GA_SVGWG()2:30PM has ended
21:05:14 [Zakim]
Attendees were ed, heycam, anthony, Shepazu, ChrisL
21:05:22 [anthony]
Zakim, bye
21:05:22 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #svg