19:31:21 RRSAgent has joined #svg 19:31:21 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/12/11-svg-irc 19:31:23 RRSAgent, make logs public 19:31:23 Zakim has joined #svg 19:31:25 Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG 19:31:25 ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG()2:30PM scheduled to start now 19:31:26 Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference 19:31:26 Date: 11 December 2008 19:31:33 ChrisL has joined #svg 19:32:03 GA_SVGWG()2:30PM has now started 19:32:09 +[IPcaller] 19:32:11 +??P3 19:32:28 +??P10 19:32:30 Zakim, [IPcaller] is me 19:32:30 +ed; got it 19:32:31 Zakim, ??P10 is me 19:32:31 +heycam; got it 19:32:57 Zakim, ??P3 is me 19:32:57 +anthony; got it 19:33:01 +Shepazu 19:33:52 + +95249aaaa 19:34:40 Zakim, +95249aaaa is ChrisL 19:34:40 +ChrisL; got it 19:35:06 Zakim, pick a victim 19:35:06 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose anthony 19:35:25 Zakim, pick a victim 19:35:25 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose ChrisL 19:35:34 scribe: ChrisL 19:35:49 scribeNick: ChrisL 19:36:00 Topic: HTML5 19:36:00 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008OctDec/0420.html 19:36:44 (taking comments one by one) 19:37:07 ED: is it good to collect high level goals? 19:37:20 CcC:Yes, it halps as long as they are not too abstract 19:37:40 s/CcC/CMcC/ 19:37:55 ED: Suggested rewording avout remaining in XML 19:40:12 CL: Main aim was that folks using existing xml would not need to change it to copy and paste 19:40:38 DS: Henri said that nonwelformed XML should be exposed as WF by the browser after correction 19:41:24 CMcC: the later ones are higher level goals 19:41:50 DS: So rearrange, and put this one as a consequence. Say why, and then it naturally falls out 19:42:07 CMcC: that more convincing, yes 19:42:57 ED: neither mail captures what we want 19:43:56 CL: Not sure we should push on validity. Well formed is more important 19:44:06 ED: Want the fixups to be arked as errors 19:44:29 CMcC: No implied elements, would restrict ability to change the language 19:45:46 CMcC: Parser will need to fix up idf the end tag is wrong 19:47:35 CL: At TPAC, agreement that the doctype etc would not be pasted in 19:48:13 DS: Until there are tools, they will not understand why its not working. Paste in direct from illustrator and inkscape 19:49:51 DS: Need to ediucate people on what is allowed, some are allowed within XHTL, others within HTML 19:50:06 CL: No doctype etc in the middle, obviously 19:50:16 CMcC: Some examples in my mail 19:52:44 CL: Entities are kind of a transitional phase, just use Unicode nowadays 19:53:20 AG: Omitted quotes is abad idea because with complex syntax its not always clear where the attribute value ends 19:54:23 DS: Lots of attrs take space-less strings and would be fine here, and would be error corrected 19:55:11 with orr characters/> 19:55:27 CMcC: This is error correction? 19:55:36 ED: Not in HTML5, its not an error 19:56:01 DS: Effect is the same. 19:56:21 ... depends whether it reports an error or not 19:56:53 AG: I think its inconsistent 19:57:47 DS: Should be flagged as an error to help people who are trying to do standalone svg 19:58:24 ... need to be aware of quoting html5 quirks. makes it harder to adapt content 19:58:41 CMcC: Fixed up export helps there 19:58:44 DS: yes 19:59:11 DS: But mashups, not using a browser, would be effected 20:01:05 ... concerned that people have svg-like files, they download the file and try to open in an authoring tool and it does not work. They don't know why 20:02:05 AG: An artist will understand right click, save as, and then open the file 20:03:48 CL: If browsers do silent fixup then there will be svg files that are not well formed and cannot be edited 20:05:57 DS: This is why I said it should be seen as error correction 20:07:01 ... no 'visible indication of error' but a log would show a warning 20:07:12 ... eg in a validator 20:07:35 CL: Warning is very reasonable. 20:09:31 DS: Would not be surprised to see xml allow this also in the next 5 years 20:11:40 DS: SVG requires quotes 20:12:35 DS: Its ok as long as its acknowledged as error correction 20:13:14 ED: Perhaps we should discuss these in email 20:15:51 CMcC: Henri made a fork of Mozilla that uses the old HTML handling of SVG 20:16:24 http://about.validator.nu/htmlparser/ 20:16:32 sorry not that url 20:16:41 http://hsivonen.iki.fi/html5-gecko-build/ 20:17:47 Topic: Vacation break 20:17:55 CL: here next week then off two weeks 20:18:13 http://www.intertwingly.net/blog/ 20:18:13 AG: Working to Xmas, then off to 13 jan 20:18:28 DS: Working holiday 20:19:30 CMcC: next week ok? 20:20:14 (agreement seems to be to cancel from22 and restart from 5 Jan 20:20:49 ACTIN: Erik announce the xmas break 20:21:00 ACTION: Erik to announce the xmas break 20:21:00 Created ACTION-2377 - Announce the xmas break [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-12-18]. 20:21:39 Topic: Selectors review 20:21:44 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2008OctDec/0465.html 20:21:48 ED: Some feedback from lachlan 20:22:57 CL: Important thing is that the spec now clearly states that ns functionality is not there. So thats good 20:23:19 ED: Node selector text is also improved 20:24:14 ... I mentioned some potential non-interop, and he pushed back. i'm happy to drop those. Selectors on subtrees outside the document will not be interoperable however 20:24:39 ... on list creation, its not very precise but its ok i guess 20:25:17 ... mention of downlevel clients sparked some discussion 20:25:44 ... refuses to add a DOM3 xpath informative reference 20:27:35 DS: Sicking makes good points 20:27:48 ED: On last issue he says he is reconsidering adding an example 20:28:40 ACTION: Erik to respond to Lachlan on selectors api review 20:28:40 Created ACTION-2378 - Respond to Lachlan on selectors api review [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-12-18]. 20:28:58 Topic: clipping 20:29:46 DS: Not fully convinced by Thomas' argument. Seems to conflate clipping paths with viewports? 20:30:06 CcC: No, his example is a viewport one but he understands the difference 20:30:55 s/CcC/CMcC/g 20:31:58 ... he brought in viewports and an example of something that clipped out pointer events 20:33:42 CL: Consider a symbol, which has a clippath. The pointer events are clipped in the other three quadrants unless overflow is enabled 20:33:56 DS: And with visiblePainted, thats what you get 20:34:54 http://mcc.id.au/temp/2008/clip-window.svg 20:36:32 DS: Rules fr clip paths apply. Clip paths do not clip events al the time, depends on value of pointer events. Whie whena vireewport is established, events are always clipped itrtespective of the value 20:37:28 .. asv clips the events no matter what. safari clips no events at all 20:37:43 CcC: Proposal changes =it to allow either clipping or not 20:37:50 DS: Under author control 20:38:31 CMcC: Thomas' concern is that people have existing content that depends on this. But behaviour is not fully defined in spec. 20:39:18 DS: Is this a real use case? 20:39:34 CMcC: yes, its how people create invisible event targets now 20:40:26 ... but there are workarounds 20:41:14 DS: So I don't think this combination is very common as there are better and more direct ways to do this 20:44:35 ED: Interesting to hear Mozilla view on this, would liked to have asked JWatt or RoC 20:44:55 ACTION: Doug ask Mozilla about this clipping issue 20:44:55 Created ACTION-2379 - Ask Mozilla about this clipping issue [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-12-18]. 20:45:26 ED: Wonder how much content uses clip path plus pointer-events nondefault values 20:46:08 topic: new template for 1.1 tests 20:46:21 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008OctDec/0423.html 20:49:53 DS: If we make a schema we could have the validator at W3C be more useful 20:50:52 CL: oXygen ships with a 1.1F XSD, we should get them to add an SVGT1.2 RBG as well 20:51:17 DS: No need for an xml prolog 20:52:20 CL: Apart from non UTF-8, UTF-16, no need for an xml encoding declaration 20:52:36 Resolved: New 1.1F template has no doctype and no xml declaration 20:53:46 (we agree that having one template is a good goal derived versions can be made with xslt) 20:54:56 (discussion on version and baseProfile desirability in tests) 20:55:49 CL: version and baseProfile should only be aded where actually needed. most tests do not require it 20:56:38 ... and i agree about the 'approved' value, never understood why that had a different value 20:57:26 ED; There was a distinction between approved an=d accepted, which was that it was published for the public. Used to be a list. Now its autogenerated 20:58:23 CL: Only downside is some (small) changes to the scripts 20:59:09 ACTION: Anthony to look through scripts for any breakage that would happen from conflating approved and accepted 20:59:09 Created ACTION-2380 - Look through scripts for any breakage that would happen from conflating approved and accepted [on Anthony Grasso - due 2008-12-18]. 21:00:04 ED: Need to clarify what to do when dropping a test back to reviewed or created 21:00:43 Resolved: the approved and accepted should be one value 21:01:08 ED: Wonder if there are tests which are accepted but not approved 21:04:04 zakim, list participants 21:04:04 As of this point the attendees have been ed, heycam, anthony, Shepazu, ChrisL 21:04:24 meeting adjourned 21:04:43 -anthony 21:04:45 -ChrisL 21:04:46 -heycam 21:04:50 -ed 21:04:51 rrsagent, make minutes 21:04:51 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/12/11-svg-minutes.html ChrisL 21:05:11 -Shepazu 21:05:13 GA_SVGWG()2:30PM has ended 21:05:14 Attendees were ed, heycam, anthony, Shepazu, ChrisL 21:05:22 Zakim, bye 21:05:22 Zakim has left #svg