IRC log of tagmem on 2008-12-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:03:06 [RRSAgent]
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14:03:06 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:03:16 [Zakim]
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14:03:22 [DanC_lap]
agenda + Convene
14:03:35 [DanC_lap]
agenda + schemeProtocols-49
14:03:51 [DanC_lap]
agenda + XMLVersioning-41
14:06:01 [Stuart]
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14:06:37 [ht]
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14:07:20 [DanC_lap]
(noodling on agenda topics... do we care how long HTTP headers names are any more?)
14:07:47 [noah_away]
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14:08:08 [DanC_lap]
Present: Noah, Ashok, Dan, Jonathan, Henry, Stuart, Tim
14:08:23 [DanC_lap]
Regrets: TVR, DaveO, NormW
14:08:52 [jar]
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14:09:06 [jar]
scribenick: jar
14:09:24 [jar]
Convening... call for scribes
14:09:37 [DanC_lap]
Zakim, take up item 1
14:09:37 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Convene" taken up [from DanC_lap]
14:09:50 [jar]
14:10:04 [DanC_lap]
DanC_lap has changed the topic to:
14:10:09 [DanC_lap]
14:11:32 [DanC_lap]
14:13:27 [jar]
jar: Ashok will be speaking at semantic web gathering tonight
14:13:54 [Stuart]
acl danc
14:13:55 [Ashok]
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14:13:56 [DanC_lap]
q+ to ask about
14:14:00 [Stuart]
ack danc
14:14:00 [Zakim]
DanC_lap, you wanted to ask about
14:16:20 [DanC_lap]
agenda + tagSoup / error handling
14:16:50 [jar]
stuart: re agenda: propose error handling discussion with raman at 15:30 today
14:22:19 [DanC_lap]
NM: thoughts on future meeting dates/times?
14:22:26 [DanC_lap]
AM: late Feb, east coast or west coast?
14:22:33 [ht]
HST has Schema WG f2f 25--27 Feb, Austin TX
14:22:54 [jar]
proposed - US east coast or west coast. proposed - west coast (even though no known-to-be-continuing tag members are west coast).
14:23:39 [jar]
ht: Schema WG is Feb 25-27 (W-F). That would make Mar 3-5 M-W good.
14:23:56 [jar]
timbl: (checking schedule)
14:24:05 [ht]
14:25:51 [jar]
ht: Tu-Thu Mar 3-5 is also OK but not as good w.r.t. concatenation with schema
14:27:41 [jar]
stuart: (takes poll) Tue-Thu Mar 3-5 is preferred.
14:28:03 [jar]
stuart: THIS IS TENTATIVE pending input from new TAG members. DO NOT book flights.
14:28:35 [DanC_lap]
ACTION DanC: relay 3-5 Mar 2009 SFO proposal to TAG candidates and collect feedback
14:28:35 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-197 - Relay 3-5 Mar 2009 SFO proposal to TAG candidates and collect feedback [on Dan Connolly - due 2008-12-16].
14:29:26 [jar]
ht: If we learn that all TAG candidates are OK with this then we will be able to confirm.
14:29:28 [DanC_lap]
NM: note the AC meeting at MIT 3 weeks later
14:33:19 [jar]
(location in case I forgot to record it: Bay Area)
14:34:22 [DanC_lap]
Zakim, next item
14:34:22 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "schemeProtocols-49" taken up [from DanC_lap]
14:34:38 [DanC_lap]
Zakim, this is tag
14:34:38 [Zakim]
DanC_lap, I see TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be tag".
14:34:44 [DanC_lap]
Zakim, list
14:34:44 [Zakim]
I see no active conferences
14:34:45 [Zakim]
scheduled at this time are MM_InkML()9:00AM, TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM, Team_(OfficesF2F)14:02Z, Team_(mediafrag)07:43Z, IA_CDFWG()8:30AM, Team_Offices()9:00AM, IA_MAWG()3:00AM
14:35:13 [amy]
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14:35:20 [DanC_lap]
hi amy.
14:35:25 [amy]
14:35:34 [DanC_lap]
we're trying to connect norm to our meeting; care to suggest a bridge code?
14:35:58 [DanC_lap]
we could use TAG_AWWSW or an instant deely, I suppose, but stuart mentioned something about you arranging a bridge
14:36:33 [amy]
yes, sorry, arranging w/ Ralph so I can use the scheduling system. my connection breaks on reboot
14:37:01 [amy]
if you want TAG_AWWSW we can do that or TAG1, whatever you like for all three days
14:37:02 [DanC_lap]
let's just use AWWSW, I guess...
14:37:08 [DanC_lap]
Zakim, this will be AWWSW
14:37:08 [Zakim]
ok, DanC_lap; I see TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM scheduled to start 37 minutes ago
14:37:11 [DanC_lap]
Zakim, code?
14:37:11 [Zakim]
the conference code is 29979 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), DanC_lap
14:37:18 [DanC_lap]
thanks, amy
14:37:23 [amy]
wait, no, if you use that no one will be able to get on after that call is scheduled
14:37:29 [amy]
oh, ok
14:37:34 [DanC_lap]
we only expect norm
14:37:37 [Zakim]
TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM has now started
14:37:38 [amy]
s/scheduled/scheduled to end
14:37:39 [amy]
14:37:44 [Zakim]
14:38:41 [Zakim]
14:38:44 [Norm]
Norm has joined #tagmem
14:40:33 [jar]
danc: Extension points exists, technologies are simple, but economics of different solutions differ
14:41:36 [jar]
danc: HTTP WG received comment on using GET for unsafe operations (e.g. twitter)
14:42:31 [jar]
(projected: Redacted article)
14:43:06 [jar]
danc: Using openURL, which seems to be a kind of GET
14:44:15 [jar]
danc: It ends up sending a message... thus this is a kind of POST on GET
14:45:36 [jar]
danc: They're using URI schemes to do IPC (calls between apps on same gizmo)
14:45:42 [amy]
amy has left #tagmem
14:46:29 [jar]
noah: Would I ever email you one of these if you didn't have an iphone? Would I put a twitterific on my home page?
14:46:44 [jar]
danc: No one has suggested this.
14:47:15 [jar]
ht: This (it will hurt you later) is a real argument, but a weak one.
14:47:47 [jar]
ht: (advocating devil) There are lot of short words out there.
14:48:06 [ht]
s/devil/on behalf of the devil/
14:48:40 [jar]
danc: Mark Nottingham observes that TAG has written on the subject, but not very accessibly.
14:49:23 [jar]
ht: What is so attractive about using URI schemes to do IPC?
14:49:52 [jar]
ht: You don't have to worry about ...?
14:50:38 [jar]
danc: Who are you asking about? It was Apple that chose the mechanism, and some clever person outside Apple who discovered them.
14:53:02 [jar]
noah: The reason for this is pretty innocent. One builds a generalized broker useable by an application.
14:54:05 [jar]
... [broker = that which dispatches on URI scheme]
14:54:18 [DanC_lap]
(well, no, I think timbl meant an IPC broker, never mind the web)
14:54:54 [jar]
stuart: When you GET the URI, that fires up some application logic?
14:54:54 [timbl]
A broker which alloows clients to find services, like ORB etc
14:54:56 [DanC_lap]
(the point, as HT said, is that apple didn't provide a somewhat traditional IPC broker, but some enterprising devs discovered you could use URI dispatching as an IPC mechanism)
14:55:41 [jar]
noah: There are generic hookups between URI schemes and IPC mechanisms
14:55:53 [DanC_lap]
q+ to note the irony of rdar:
14:56:19 [DanC_lap]
ack danc
14:56:19 [Zakim]
DanC_lap, you wanted to note the irony of rdar:
14:56:45 [jar]
rdar://problem/6045562 (= a pointer in apple's bug database)
14:57:56 [DanC_lap]
q+ to remind the TAG about
14:59:04 [DanC_lap]
NDW: I attempted to register urn:ndw ; they not only denied my request but exception to it
14:59:58 [DanC_lap]
ack danc
15:00:01 [Zakim]
DanC_lap, you wanted to remind the TAG about
15:00:02 [jar]
danc: Tim suggested maybe W3C should run a registry of these
15:00:37 [jar]
danc: Similar to the wiki registry.
15:02:04 [jar]
ht: Is the jar: URI scheme there [in the W3C informal URI scheme registry]?
15:02:20 [Zakim]
15:03:00 [jar] on rdar:// urls
15:03:23 [jar]
15:04:28 [jar]
links t AWWW 2.4.1 ...
15:05:43 [jar]
schemes registry link seems to be broken...
15:05:48 [Norm]
Zakim, what's the code?
15:05:48 [Zakim]
the conference code is 29979 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), Norm
15:05:59 [jar]
s/schemes/IANA's URI schemes/
15:06:01 [DanC_lap]
ACTION DanC: ask IANA to continue to serve the old address in webarch for the URI scheme registry
15:06:01 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-198 - Ask IANA to continue to serve the old address in webarch for the URI scheme registry [on Dan Connolly - due 2008-12-16].
15:06:07 [Zakim]
15:07:38 [jar]
danc: Let's see how hard it is to register a new URI scheme. (browses to IANA, the RFC, ...)
15:07:45 [ht]
Sorry, we're cruising around IANA/IETF space - at RFC4395 at the moment
15:08:30 [jar]
form to , ~4 week review period
15:08:46 [jar]
noah: It should be hard.
15:10:08 [jar]
ht: We should be looking at section 3 of the RFC = provisional URI scheme registration
15:10:15 [DanC_lap]
(IETF/IANA runs a provisional URI scheme registry? did I know this?)
15:12:13 [jar]
ht: Provisional means you have a claim. To be public spirited all of these schemes in use should be registered provisionally.
15:12:55 [jar]
danc: [In case you've forgotten,] we are considering deployment scenarios and costs for various parties.
15:15:18 [jar]
noah: Specifically when people want to use *local* URI-based IPC stack, is x-* (or something in that spirit) suitable?
15:16:04 [jar]
timbl: Sometimes things look like bad web architecture, but then it turns out they're doing something quite different and inventing new architecture for it.
15:16:19 [jar]
timbl: e.g. web services.
15:17:08 [jar]
stuart: Local communication is the same problem as the widget folks identified. [to scribe: this was said before tim's comments]
15:17:26 [jar]
danc: They're not making a new information space, typically
15:18:37 [jar]
noah: RMI was a local registry way back when... JNDI...
15:18:45 [timbl]
tim: So if the need is for a way of cooronating between diff applications under OSX, what alternative registries are there apart from the URI registry?
15:18:51 [jar]
noah: this was CORBA-inspired
15:19:34 [timbl]
eg in java, thinf skike co.sun.libs.whatever
15:20:12 [noah]
I think more than Corba-inspired. My recollection is vague, but I think that when you wanted to actually connect to something in RMI, it was common to make calls that mapped to a Corba registry to locate the object that would be the target of communication.
15:20:27 [jar]
timbl: What if I want to call a Java library - what do I do? (thinking about how to build a solution)
15:20:41 [timbl]
This is very analogous to a system() call
15:21:14 [Stuart]
15:21:18 [jar]
danc: The twitterific: case seems to not need URI schemes here - Apple should provide a different IPC mechanism
15:21:47 [timbl]
Note also OSX has services
15:21:59 [timbl]
See the Services menu
15:22:07 [timbl]
15:22:08 [jar]
stuart: In the itunes case, the URI *will* be on a public web page, and clicking is supposed to fire up a local app
15:22:22 [jar]
noah: There are two different use cases.
15:22:30 [jar]
... that's the other one.
15:22:54 [jar]
danc: twitterific case and itunes case are very different.
15:23:17 [Stuart]
15:23:18 [noah]
15:23:20 [DanC_lap]
ack next
15:24:02 [DanC_lap]
(I'm not interested in the "services menu" architecture until it's open source.)
15:24:09 [jar]
timbl: Highlight something in colloquy, go to services menu, can convert to chinese text, open as url, skype contact, etc.. lots of options
15:24:45 [DanC_lap]
(hmm... maybe it is, as part of gnustep or something)
15:24:55 [jar]
timbl: Under OSX there are mechanisms for doing this [twitterific use case]
15:25:37 [jar]
stuart: But the mechanism will be different from one OS to the next
15:26:29 [DanC_lap]
(hmm... there's a potential to transition to the web apps security discussion here... there's a drag-n-drop javascript API somewhere in the W3C /TR/ space)
15:26:58 [jar]
timbl: When you do drag & drop - that will invoke an application (selected from namespace of applications)
15:27:59 [timbl]
Maybe one shuld have a catch-all service: URI scheme which allows one to eg POST to a URI service:Mail/SendTo
15:28:53 [Zakim]
15:28:59 [jar]
norm, we may have a new zakim code
15:29:06 [Norm]
Ok. I'll look here
15:35:01 [Zakim]
disconnecting the lone participant, MIT-Star, in TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM
15:35:04 [Zakim]
TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM has ended
15:35:04 [Zakim]
Attendees were MIT-Star, Norm
15:53:01 [Stuart]
zakim, this is tag
15:53:02 [Zakim]
ok, Stuart; that matches TAG_f2f()9:00AM
15:53:13 [DanC_lap]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:53:13 [Zakim]
On the phone I see MIT-Star
15:53:36 [Norm]
Zakim, what's the passcode?
15:53:36 [Zakim]
the conference code is 824323 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), Norm
15:56:37 [jar]
(technical difficulties)
15:57:48 [jar]
danc: Pownce and itunes are like http but signal use of a different application for 'browsing'
15:59:20 [jar]
danc: Tradeoff between uri & mime type hooks - Mark N - mime type requires coordination with server - app developers should like uri schemes since no such coordination is needed
16:00:02 [jar]
noah: mms URI scheme is just like http - if you replace the scheme with http it will work fine
16:00:15 [jar]
s/mms/mms (for example)/
16:00:20 [DanC_lap]
indeed, mms: is another example of the case of uri schemes that alias http: for software dispatch reasons
16:01:19 [jar]
danc: Purpose is to dispatch software. They run into the software installation problem when 2 players fight.
16:01:49 [jar]
ht: things have gotten better in this way. everything now offers a set of checkboxes.
16:01:57 [jar]
danc: informed consent
16:02:18 [noah]
According to Wikipedia at
16:02:32 [noah]
Microsoft Media Server (MMS) is the name of Microsoft's proprietary network streaming protocol used to transfer unicast data in Windows Media Services (previously called NetShow Services). MMS can be transported via UDP or TCP. The MMS default port is UDP/TCP 1755.
16:02:44 [jar]
danc: Everything reduces to the SW installation problem, which is unsolved.
16:03:12 [jar]
ht: If you download the software on every use, there's less of an installation problem...
16:03:58 [jar]
noah: For purely local interactions, you don't need web architecture. No issue until links leak to third parties
16:04:37 [jar]
ht: A .ram file is *only* the information the media player needs to get access to the media stream
16:05:01 [noah]
What I was trying to say was in relation to Henry's challenge that Web 2.0 downloads client software just before use. My point was that in that case, which is >not< local, you can easily have private contracts and protocols on the point-to-point connection from client to source server.
16:05:28 [DanC_lap]
s/Everything reduces/the reason I have a hard time giving general advice about new URI schemes and media types is that Everything reduces/
16:06:14 [jar]
danc: There are multiple parties in the web 2.0 scenario, so the installation problem will emerge there
16:07:05 [DanC_lap]
Zakim, is norm here?
16:07:06 [Zakim]
DanC_lap, I do not see Norm anywhere
16:07:12 [ht]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:07:12 [Zakim]
On the phone I see MIT-Star
16:08:15 [jar]
jar: pownce may be a 3rd use case
16:08:26 [noah]
16:08:35 [jar]
danc: (reading eran's email)
16:08:41 [noah]
We have some very big news today at Pownce. We will be closing the service and Mike and I, along with the Pownce technology, have joined Six Apart, the company behind such great blogging software as Movable Type, TypePad and Vox. Were bittersweet about shutting down the service but we believe well come back with something much better in 2009. We love the Pownce community and we will miss you all.
16:09:46 [jar]
danc: It's a continuation pattern - client sends continuation to server, which 'invokes' it
16:11:07 [Stuart]
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16:11:32 [Dave]
Dave has joined #tagmem
16:11:39 [Stuart]
16:11:43 [jar]
danc: http: with localhost would work in the pownce use case
16:12:03 [DanC_lap]
Zakim, code?
16:12:04 [Zakim]
the conference code is 824323 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), DanC_lap
16:12:32 [Zakim]
+ +1.604.709.aaaa
16:12:46 [Dave]
Zakim, aaaa is me
16:12:46 [Zakim]
+Dave; got it
16:14:19 [jar]
danc: Suppose HT has an iphone. Wants to do something with pownce. You want to use your openid. Auth challenge from pownce redirects to university. University directs back to pownce -- the client actually. [scribe: check]
16:14:30 [jar]
ht: so why not a media type?
16:15:39 [jar]
ht: I give http://localhost/something, then the client software delivers the pownce media type, etc.
16:16:37 [noah]
But that would mean university software would have to respond with a application/pounce media type after you login. Seems unlikely. I conclude the "requirement" is something that can be encoded in the URI, and scheme is one answer.
16:17:07 [jar]
danc: Pownce is clearly not just IPC. But if the is no danger of a collision.
16:17:29 [jar]
noah: Give me the next unused URI scheme from some local space of URI schemes.
16:17:43 [jar]
... like port numbers.
16:18:34 [Dave]
minor note, it's not OpenAuth, it's OAuth. AOL wouldn't give up the copyright on OpenAuth.
16:19:01 [jar]
ht: But the email continues to say this oauth solution doesn't work because oauth servers are careful.
16:19:14 [jar]
NOTE TO SCRIBE: What Dave says above.
16:20:39 [jar]
ht: If you go to the relevant bit of FF, there is granularity in establishing proxies [per-scheme proxy assignments]
16:20:49 [DanC_lap]
q+ to note webarch seems to overstate the case. 2.4.1 "The same thing can be accomplished ..."
16:21:11 [jar]
noah: But most clients have an indirection table to figure out what to do with URI schemes
16:21:35 [DanC_lap]
ack danc
16:21:35 [Zakim]
DanC_lap, you wanted to note webarch seems to overstate the case. 2.4.1 "The same thing can be accomplished ..."
16:24:53 [jar]
danc: With media type, you can't control what software is used to retrieve (GET), but you can say what software is to be used to process (show, play) the representation
16:27:01 [jar]
(looking at the retrieval diagram)
16:29:08 [jar]
timbl: tel: URIs don't make FF go to skype...
16:30:40 [jar]
stuart: Is firing up an application (on GET) a good thing to do, and if so how should it be arranged?
16:32:03 [DanC_lap]
q+ to migrate to discussion tactics
16:32:07 [timbl]
16:32:14 [DanC_lap]
ack next
16:32:15 [Zakim]
DanC_lap, you wanted to migrate to discussion tactics
16:32:15 [jar]
jar: Maybe only some applications. What if there were a delete: URI scheme, like file:, that deleted files?
16:32:41 [DanC_lap]
a slide:
16:32:49 [Dave]
tel: URIs on iPhone do cause the phone app to start up and dial the number...
16:33:02 [timbl]
q+ to waonder about maiing post() as common as get in the OS APIs would help
16:33:36 [jar]
danc: Web architecture: Exploration is safe
16:34:07 [jar]
danc: Problem: links that delete things
16:35:25 [jar]
s/links that/URIs for which GETs/
16:37:04 [jar]
danc: reason: e.g. the google web accelerator
16:39:12 [jar]
ht: My client is not convinced
16:40:16 [jar]
(discussion of cartoons)
16:42:30 [jar]
noah: I think a lot of these cases have this feel - e.g. itunes - but if it were a problem people would have complained and it would have been corrected
16:43:36 [jar]
danc: Re GET vs. POST, I think the story needs to be told again and louder. itunes is not as much of a problem.
16:43:54 [jar]
danc: itunes has problems re bookmarking
16:44:18 [jar]
16:44:48 [timbl]
16:45:01 [jar]
danc: Apple wins in the case of itunes, but the web doesn't
16:45:10 [jar]
16:47:01 [jar]
NOTE TO SCRIBE: check on itms: vs. itunes: - fix
16:47:52 [jar]
jar: It's sort of like doi:
16:49:57 [Stuart]
16:50:09 [jar]
(experiment looking for a URI for a song from itunes)
16:50:30 [Stuart]
16:50:35 [DanC_lap]
set-cookie: itmsUrl=itms://; version="1"; expires=Wed, 10-Dec-2008 16:50:15 GMT; path=/WebObjects;
16:51:31 [DanC_lap]
("edge-control:"??? news to me; I wonder if that's in the http header field name registry)
16:53:26 [jar]
but if you're in itunes and click right for "Get itunes URL" you get an http: URL.
16:53:54 [ht]
Google reports: Results 1 - 10 of about 2,040 for "itms://ax".
16:54:06 [DanC_lap]
(itms: is the scheme in )
16:55:30 [timbl]
16:55:43 [DanC_lap]
let's look from
16:55:46 [timbl]
16:56:38 [timbl]
At it's heart, DAAP is the latest in a long line of protocols that
16:56:38 [timbl]
uses HTTP[3] as it's underlying transport mechanism.
16:56:45 [timbl]
16:57:04 [DanC_lap]
q+ to noodle on wikipedia as a/the repository of conventional developer wisdom
16:57:14 [DanC_lap]
16:57:39 [timbl]
Request: daap://server/server-info
16:58:05 [timbl]
Request: daap://server/server-info (or http://server:3689/)
16:58:19 [DanC_lap]
ack next
16:58:21 [Zakim]
DanC_lap, you wanted to noodle on wikipedia as a/the repository of conventional developer wisdom
16:59:00 [DanC_lap]
q+ to finish his thought on wikipedia
17:04:05 [DanC_lap]
on wikipedia conflict of interest policy, some data:
17:04:15 [Stuart]
17:08:12 [DanC_lap]
(hmm... fairly clearly better than the list in the ESW wiki)
17:09:22 [jar]
(callto:, skype:, tel:)
17:10:58 [jar]
ht: (has gunzipped result of redirection from itms: URI - changed scheme to http: first)
17:11:35 [jar]
... a complicated XML file. how to display song's page in the itunes store
17:13:00 [jar]
... original mime type is compressed. xml doc has namespaces (new)
17:13:14 [ht]
17:13:21 [DanC_lap]
17:13:21 [trackbot]
ACTION-198 -- Dan Connolly to ask IANA to continue to serve the old address in webarch for the URI scheme registry -- due 2008-12-16 -- OPEN
17:13:21 [trackbot]
17:14:03 [timbl]
<Document xmlns="" artistId="1419227" browsePath="/34/15/1/1419227/296000087" pageType=
17:14:32 [timbl]
Hmm, the page you’re looking for can’t be found.
17:14:41 [jar]
17:14:42 [DanC_lap]
$ curl -I
17:14:42 [DanC_lap]
HTTP/1.1 404 Not Found
17:14:58 [bubbles]
bubbles has joined #tagmem
17:15:12 [bubbles]
Hi Gang!
17:15:39 [bubbles]
I must alredy be signed in to W3C as Raman, which is why I became Bubbles. Will become me in a minute
17:16:00 [timbl]
How do we know that this isn't the real you?
17:16:21 [raman]
raman has joined #tagmem
17:16:41 [raman]
Now it's really me
17:17:07 [Zakim]
17:17:14 [Zakim]
17:17:16 [Zakim]
TAG_f2f()9:00AM has ended
17:17:17 [Zakim]
Attendees were MIT-Star, +1.604.709.aaaa, Dave
17:17:46 [raman]
lunch time in Boston?
17:17:58 [bubbles]
I can call in at 11:00 and stay till 12:15 or so PST
17:18:05 [raman]
Have a meeting in 45 minutes
17:19:05 [DanC_lap]
stuart says you and dave will please figure out the timing.
17:21:00 [raman]
Dave, you there?
17:24:11 [Dave]
Still on IRC..
17:38:26 [raman]
could we negotiate times? Specifically, could I request that tag-soup be move to 11:00 PST 14:00 EST?
18:04:53 [Dave]
I can't really move it into that slot.
18:05:11 [Dave]
I have to drop off kids from 12:45 to 1:15pm.
18:05:24 [Dave]
And I really need to be fully online and at home for that.
18:05:57 [Dave]
I'm ok with doing something else in the last slot today and doing tagsoup tomorrow..
18:23:38 [jar]
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18:24:53 [Stuart]
Stuart has joined #tagmem
18:31:23 [timbl]
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18:31:58 [Zakim]
TAG_f2f()9:00AM has now started
18:32:05 [Zakim]
18:33:03 [Zakim]
18:33:07 [timbl]
18:33:20 [timbl]
scribenick: timbl
18:33:22 [DanC_lap]
Zakim, close item 2
18:33:22 [Zakim]
agendum 2, schemeProtocols-49, closed
18:33:23 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:33:25 [Zakim]
3. XMLVersioning-41 [from DanC_lap]
18:35:08 [Ashok]
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18:35:39 [timbl]
DaveO: I have to be off the call 3:45-4:15 ET
18:35:59 [Dave]
I can be kind of on the call, but not leading/etc.
18:36:48 [noah]
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18:44:19 [timbl]
zakim, take up item 3
18:44:19 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "XMLVersioning-41" taken up [from DanC_lap]
18:44:37 [timbl]
topic: XMLVersioning-41
18:45:43 [timbl]
Start: Dave produced a new draft Friday.
18:46:00 [timbl]
Noah: I Read skimmed , read ch 5 in detail.
18:46:48 [timbl]
Staurt: I read the whole thing on the way over
18:46:58 [timbl]
I think we have done hte document damage after the last few revs
18:47:12 [timbl]
It doesn't feeel like a cohesive whole.
18:47:25 [timbl]
DO: I think that is over-stating it.
18:47:39 [timbl]
We can fix up [document auther etc]
18:48:00 [timbl]
DO: The document could be shortened by remiving some number ofm version numbers
18:48:20 [timbl]
... but I don't think that would be desirable.
18:49:00 [timbl]
... We have made good progress getting though 2,3 and 4.
18:49:40 [timbl]
I revised section 5.1 a bit to makde clearer about what happens to a subtree when you are ignoring or preserving.
18:51:07 [timbl]
We have nit spent a lot of time on Section 5.
18:52:25 [timbl]
Stuart: I don't see energy for this in the group.
18:53:05 [timbl]
Jar: A lot of good work has gone into it and it should preserved. Could we make it a note if not a finiding?
18:53:27 [Stuart]
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18:53:46 [timbl]
Jar: Maybe we could do a very short finding inspired by this
18:54:20 [timbl]
Noah: My inclination what we might do as anotehr step in thefuture from what we do about this. This document represents a lot of work.
18:55:06 [timbl]
... If we decide it is the basis for a finding, we need to make sure it has that quality. If it is a Note, we should be clear what level of endorsement it gets.
18:55:30 [timbl]
... We could make a finding an action item for the new TAG next year
18:55:41 [Stuart]
18:56:07 [timbl]
Tim: +1 to a note as a snapshot
18:57:09 [timbl]
Ashok: If we are thinking of publishing in this form and later in a different form, how would these be different?
18:57:54 [timbl]
Noah: I would be interesting in seeing Jonathan's formalism be used, but I don't think a non-mathematical reader wouldunderstand.
18:59:09 [timbl]
... We could just show a markup language evolving, in a document
19:00:08 [timbl]
jar: Would be a lot of work to align the formalism with the examples.
19:00:34 [timbl]
Noah: I think the foamlism attacks very well the fact that when you change a language yu can doit in so macny ways.
19:00:44 [timbl]
... The formalism makes this much more simple.
19:01:43 [noah]
Clarification of what I said: if this doesn't become a finding, we NOT should assume we want to do some other document on versioning as a priority. We should put it on a list of possible priorities, and see how it stacks up against the other things we could do next year.
19:02:06 [timbl]
Ashok: Propose: publish as a Note just now
19:02:54 [timbl]
Henry: I am happy with pressing on this to get it as good as we can and publish it as a white paper (whatever we decide).
19:03:16 [timbl]
... for the remainder of this session and Dave's term.
19:03:41 [timbl]
... I apologize I have not been able to see how to get this into a finding form
19:04:04 [timbl]
S: We have been talkingabout publishing this as a note since the Southampton meeting.
19:05:13 [timbl]
N: I will get a lot of flack on the lists if we publish this as a note without clarifying it is not a complete
19:05:38 [timbl]
A: Whose note? Dave ro TAG? Propose; author Dave, with TAG helped.
19:05:59 [timbl]
DO: Like to keep the fact that the TAG has very much beeen involved with reviewing this.
19:07:40 [timbl]
S: Propose: A white paper in Dave's name published with the TAG's review
19:08:09 [timbl]
DO: I think there are 5 pages of material in §5.
19:08:34 [timbl]
... Maybe we can push this through to a finding.
19:09:12 [timbl]
... The TAG thought this was a priority when I was not on the TAG -- I am prepared to do that again.
19:09:37 [timbl]
N: Are you suggesting we compress §5 or what?
19:09:58 [timbl]
... I notice Stuart had detailed comments on things we have alreday been though.
19:10:07 [timbl]
... So those we need more work.
19:10:19 [timbl]
S: I only sent my review to you, Dave.
19:10:57 [timbl]
... You got my raw fresh commentary on it.
19:11:18 [timbl]
DO: How far did we make it down into §2?
19:11:43 [timbl]
... In §5, we were partway thorugh §5.1 and said we should have a nother look at this
19:13:17 [timbl]
... The §5 part we got down to in the must accept ... we got halfway through §5.1 and I started rewriting just before "discarder prserve".
19:14:06 [DanC_lap]
(projected is )
19:14:15 [Ashok]
19:14:34 [timbl]
Tim: Note the doc we are discussing is not linked from the agenda.
19:16:08 [DanC_lap]
19:16:09 [trackbot]
ACTION-181 -- Jonathan Rees to update versioning formalism to align with terminology in versioning compatibility strategies -- due 2008-12-05 -- OPEN
19:16:09 [trackbot]
19:16:22 [DanC_lap]
JAR: didn't get as far as I planned on that; seems orthogonal
19:16:24 [timbl]
Jar: I didn't get far with that
19:16:29 [DanC_lap]
19:16:29 [trackbot]
ACTION-182 -- David Orchard to provide example for jar to work into the formalism -- due 2008-12-05 -- CLOSED
19:16:29 [trackbot]
19:17:26 [timbl]
DO: We did a heavy review, lots of comments about adding site (?) scripts, about migration to 1.1 having failed...
19:18:01 [timbl]
Staring at 5.1 [ ] I think we started rewrites
19:18:07 [jar]
I'm going to push ACTION-181 back to 2008-12-31.
19:18:56 [ht]
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19:19:06 [timbl]
DO: Looking at the first Good Practice note in section 5, just beloe that.
19:19:38 [Dave]
[Definition: A language is Extensible if the syntax of a language allows information that is not defined in the current version of the language and provides default handling of documents in any extended set.]
19:20:14 [timbl]
RESOLVED: We will pursue this toward a Note at this time.
19:20:29 [timbl]
(resolved a bit above)
19:20:48 [timbl]
19:21:06 [timbl]
19:21:24 [Stuart]
re: extensible... we have: "Definition: A language is Extensible if the syntax of a language allows information that is not defined in the current version of the language and provides default handling of documents in any extended set.]"
19:23:04 [timbl]
N: The word is 'text' is used both for the text and also for some text withing the text -- in the first sentence in §5.1
19:24:45 [DanC_lap]
(trying to remember other analagous terminology... "strings in a language" and substrings... )
19:25:01 [DanC_lap]
tbl offered "material"
19:25:04 [Dave]
Fix first sentence to deal with texts, instances of text, runs..
19:27:10 [DanC_lap]
I think timbl also suggested something like MUST vs must
19:27:11 [timbl]
N: Suggest you pass though te document to make sure it is consistent with what you decide here.
19:27:19 [Dave]
clean up use of "unknown text", all occurrences of text
19:27:34 [timbl]
Text vs text
19:31:25 [timbl]
N: Sometimes you can for example recgnioze an attribute as an attriubute but not know what it means -- so what does that mean?
19:31:44 [timbl]
J: This is just bout conformance to the language spec.
19:31:50 [timbl]
19:31:57 [timbl]
19:32:06 [Dave]
Must Accept Unknowns Rule: Consumers MUST accept unknown text parts/portions where the language has allowed extensibility.
19:33:52 [timbl]
N: The whole framework doesn't work for me -- that is why I have that problem. Ignore my comment above.
19:34:16 [Stuart]
+1 that dave's rewrite improves the statement of the rule.
19:36:52 [timbl]
DO: I think XML Schema separates out these two caes. If you want to make your language extensible, you have to explicitly put in wildcartds.
19:37:34 [timbl]
... Some badly written code would fault when t encountered the text.
19:37:37 [DanC_lap]
SKW: yes, exactly; this is advice to the language designer
19:37:56 [timbl]
J: You are giving advice, differnt advice to different oarries.
19:38:15 [noah]
A proposal: In order to achieve extensibility, language designers must specify which extension content SHOULD be accepted by consumers.
19:38:18 [timbl]
... To spec writers, you say it is good to define your languages this way so they have extesion points
19:38:23 [timbl]
DO; [interripts]
19:38:49 [Dave]
Must Accept Unknown Rule: Languages SHOULD require that consumers must accept....
19:38:56 [timbl]
JAR: You are also giving advice to implementers to respect the design which has extensability points.
19:39:28 [noah]
A proposal: In order to achieve extensibility, language designers must specify which extension content SHOULD be accepted by consumers.
19:40:27 [timbl]
DO: I am trying to speak t the language designers.
19:40:43 [timbl]
s/ t / to /
19:40:50 [Stuart]
19:40:54 [Dave]
languages should specify which extension content should be accepted by consumers.
19:41:55 [jar]
"Languages should be specified so that ..." ? but only under a certain set of assumptions.
19:42:41 [Dave]
Need to choose between: Language designers +? consumers vs languages vs language specifications....
19:43:06 [timbl]
DO: We need to chose between language designers or specifications
19:43:25 [timbl]
JAR: The spec speaks for the designer ... so equivalent.
19:43:34 [Dave]
Need to choose between: 1) Language designers +? consumers vs 2) languages vs 3) language specifications.
19:47:11 [DanC_lap]
[14:39] <noah>A proposal: In order to achieve extensibility, language designers must specify which extension content SHOULD be accepted by consumers.
19:47:19 [DanC_lap]
^ht was referring to
19:47:37 [timbl]
timbl: This document is about how to design languages. Therefore about what language deisgners do. The spec they produce defines what consumers nd producers do. Often we mean "Language designers should produce specifications in which consumers do X" and we are tempted to say "consumers should do X".
19:47:48 [timbl]
... This is not altogether unreasonable.
19:48:58 [Dave]
Starting 2 "There are 2 further decisions, each with 2 common options"
19:50:58 [Dave]
need to change "consumers should accept" to language designers style.
19:51:15 [timbl]
Tim: Not very generic in §5.1.1 as a proxy is a special case.
19:53:04 [Dave]
Why the heck was I thinking of the table as a Venn diagram??? geesh
19:56:24 [raman]
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19:56:36 [raman]
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19:57:48 [jar]
The proxying issue is not about language design - it is about clients being generic across language variants (maybe future ones, or chimeras)
20:01:51 [jar]
A language spec induces a class of conforming agents (producers and consumers). An agent induces a class of language specs (those to which it conforms).
20:03:54 [timbl]
N: We can generalize things like a proxy preserving unknown text in text is sends on to the end party, and an accountable agent recording unknown text in the auditing database, by saying that the early version of the language in general defines a way of dealing with unknown content, so that the effect/damage of a move to a new language can be controlled and understood.
20:04:40 [DanC_lap]
(projected is: )
20:04:49 [DanC_lap]
20:04:49 [trackbot]
ACTION-165 -- David Orchard to formulate erratum text on versioning for the web architecture document -- due 2008-12-09 -- OPEN
20:04:49 [trackbot]
20:05:06 [DanC_lap]
action-165 due next week
20:05:06 [trackbot]
ACTION-165 Formulate erratum text on versioning for the web architecture document due date now next week
20:08:29 [DanC_lap]
action-183 due 15 Jan 2009
20:08:29 [trackbot]
ACTION-183 Incorporate formalism into versioning compatibility strategies due date now 15 Jan 2009
20:12:23 [DanC_lap]
20:12:38 [Zakim]
20:12:38 [DanC_lap]
Zakim, close item 3
20:12:39 [Zakim]
agendum 3, XMLVersioning-41, closed
20:12:40 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
20:12:41 [Zakim]
4. tagSoup / error handling [from DanC_lap]
20:12:41 [DanC_lap]
Zakim, is raman here?
20:12:41 [Zakim]
DanC_lap, I do not see Raman anywhere
20:47:22 [Ashok]
Raman, you there?
20:48:50 [timbl]
timbl has joined #tagmem
20:50:42 [DanC_lap]
Zakim, code?
20:50:42 [Zakim]
the conference code is 824323 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), DanC_lap
20:51:58 [ht]
20:52:01 [DanC_lap]
Zakim, next item
20:52:01 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "tagSoup / error handling" taken up [from DanC_lap]
20:52:16 [timbl]
The TAG reconvenes having failed to raise Raman
20:52:28 [timbl]
topic: tagSoup / error handling
20:52:40 [DanC_lap]
-> Hickson 17 Nov
20:52:42 [timbl]
H: This is where this thread really got started.
20:53:03 [timbl]
One of the threads which emerged from the TAG-HTMLWG visit was error handling
20:53:24 [timbl]
This started with Boris, this from Ian Hixon
20:53:40 [DanC_lap]
20:54:34 [timbl]
... There is what amounts to a proposal fro what amounts to an taxonomy of web error handling and an assertion that the XML spec falls short of giving you tht you need in th e terms of this taxonomy.
20:54:54 [timbl]
... Error recovery and Error correction are two kinds of error handling.
20:56:34 [timbl]
... fior XML, we know certaily what errors are. However, it i snot clear to me that hte next to statements are clear
20:56:54 [timbl]
... but the last sentnece is truee: what he calls error handling is not defined in teh XML spec.
20:56:56 [DanC_lap]
"Error handling is not well
20:56:56 [DanC_lap]
defined, which is a major problem.
20:56:56 [DanC_lap]
20:57:06 [timbl]
Tim: And t thsi is bad for verioning
20:57:37 [DanC_lap]
q+ to note that this looks like new informatin w.r.t errorHandling-20 and to start discussion of re-opening it
20:58:15 [timbl]
in th esesne that Noah said - you have to define what hapens when stg in eth accept set but not define set.
20:58:24 [DanC_lap]
q+ DanC2 to note an interesting sublanguage of HTML5 which is streamable
20:58:31 [timbl]
HT: The accpt set doe snotinclude lexical toeniser errors
20:58:48 [timbl]
Noah: The HTML community anst t obroaden th eaccept set
20:59:02 [timbl]
Tim: For HTML, they have broadened it to every stream of characters.
20:59:51 [timbl]
HT: The defined set is what you can serialize from the DOM
20:59:51 [Stuart]
21:00:00 [DanC_lap]
q+ DanC3 to clarify what the HTML5 spec says re accept set
21:00:24 [DanC_lap]
queue= DanC3, DanC2, DanC
21:00:30 [timbl]
N: Answering Jonathan's question another way, if you belive gthat the acept set of the universal set, then what will change is the subset which is the defined set.
21:00:38 [timbl]
... For exxample <img> was then wasn't
21:00:50 [timbl]
HT: We wer talking about XML errors here.
21:01:36 [timbl]
... We shoul either dentify and fix XML's problem or explain why XML does not have a problem.
21:01:56 [timbl]
... I think one be neutral as to the ideology of the HTML5 project.
21:03:05 [timbl]
Tim: Let us not fidn a proof that XML is in fgact OK philosophically without addressing the practical problems of why people don't want to use it!
21:03:22 [timbl]
HT: Eliotte Rusty Harold says this is a layering problem.
21:03:33 [Stuart]
21:03:52 [timbl]
... It is not the XML layer which defined the error handling, as it should be defined by the application layter higher up. This makes sense.
21:04:40 [timbl]
Tim: So XML parsers be very smart about error reporting.
21:06:12 [DanC_lap]
q+ DanC2 to push back on tim's point about philosophy
21:06:32 [noah]
21:06:37 [noah]
Validating and non-validating processors alike MUST report violations of this specification's well-formedness constraints in the content of the document entity and any other parsed entities that they read.
21:07:25 [DanC_lap]
-> Hickson 8 Nov
21:08:00 [timbl]
HT: Hixie pushes back on the layering argument, saying that theright place in the stack is the XML spec "Wouldn't it make more sense for the XML spec to define this once instead
21:08:00 [timbl]
of having this defined in CSS, DOM, XHR, SVG, MathML, and every other spec
21:08:00 [timbl]
that uses XML and is to be implemented in a user agent that needs
21:08:01 [timbl]
interoperability even with the case of non-XML documents labeled as XML?
21:08:01 [timbl]
21:08:13 [noah]
q+ to dive a bit on processor conformance requirements
21:08:26 [DanC_lap]
ack next
21:09:01 [jar]
q+ jar How Scheme did it (optional features etc)
21:09:18 [jar]
q+ jar to say how Scheme did it (optional features etc)
21:09:58 [timbl]
HT: The set of CONFORMING HTML5 documents is relatively small.
21:10:02 [Ashok]
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21:10:50 [DanC_lap]
21:12:01 [DanC_lap]
ack next
21:12:02 [Zakim]
DanC2, you wanted to push back on tim's point about philosophy
21:13:20 [Stuart]
q+ to ask about xhtml error handling as a user facing technology (in response to ht's comment contrasting html5 v xml error handling)
21:14:17 [timbl]
tim: "Wouldn't it make more sense for the XML spec to define this once instead
21:14:17 [timbl]
of having this defined in CSS, DOM, XHR, SVG, MathML, and every other spec
21:14:18 [timbl]
that uses XML and is to be implemented in a user agent that needs
21:14:18 [timbl]
interoperability even with the case of non-XML documents labeled as XML?
21:14:18 [timbl]
" all te use cass are in a browser -- very close! Not enterprise XML for example.
21:14:37 [timbl]
danc: the crux of this is which layer to put the error handing
21:15:27 [timbl]
21:15:49 [timbl]
q+ to suggest a versioning should about saing if you ignore stuff silently you always have to.
21:17:00 [timbl]
DC: In 1993 I replaced the code in eht NCSA code whcih parsed HTML and I was mioving to austin to change jobs and i never sent the patch, so we will never know what would have happened. they din't ahve the parser separated from teh formatter.
21:17:41 [timbl]
HT: The C s[ec doesn;t say stuff aboute error handling eiter.
21:17:46 [DanC_lap]
q- later
21:17:47 [timbl]
21:17:54 [DanC_lap]
q- later
21:18:04 [ht]
q+ to ask for helpful analogies
21:18:07 [timbl]
S: Does XML being a metalangauge mke a difference here? What aout for exanple XBNF?
21:18:13 [Stuart]
21:18:15 [timbl]
21:18:22 [Stuart]
ack dan
21:18:48 [DanC_lap]
ack danc
21:19:22 [timbl]
Zakim, tell your daddy that Zakim loses people's tjohyghts when you reorder the queue maybe
21:19:22 [Zakim]
I don't understand you, timbl
21:19:49 [Dave]
Dave has joined #tagmem
21:20:20 [Zakim]
21:20:34 [Dave]
zakim +??p1 is me
21:20:41 [DanC_lap]
21:20:42 [Dave]
zakim, +??p1 is me
21:20:42 [Zakim]
sorry, Dave, I do not recognize a party named '+??p1'
21:20:55 [Dave]
zakim, ??p1 is me
21:20:55 [Zakim]
+Dave; got it
21:20:55 [DanC_lap]
Zakim, ??P1 is Dave
21:20:56 [Zakim]
I already had ??P1 as Dave, DanC_lap
21:21:23 [timbl]
DWC: The HTML5 parsing algorithm is not streamable: the error correction can completely change teh DOM rigtht at the end.
21:21:59 [timbl]
... Henri S has added a streaming parser .. but it aborts if it meets one of those situations.
21:22:19 [timbl]
... The streamable sub-lnguage is obvioulsy interesting.
21:23:26 [DanC_lap]
21:23:26 [trackbot]
ISSUE-20 -- What should specifications say about error handling? -- CLOSED
21:23:26 [trackbot]
21:24:21 [DanC_lap]
"Agents that recover from error by making a choice without the user's consent are not acting on the user's behalf."
21:24:31 [Stuart]
see also
21:25:26 [timbl]
21:25:27 [noah]
21:25:33 [timbl]
ack timbl
21:25:33 [Zakim]
timbl, you wanted to suggest a versioning should about saing if you ignore stuff silently you always have to.
21:25:41 [DanC_lap]
quote above is from
21:25:41 [Stuart]
21:28:32 [timbl]
tim: It woudl eb good for the TAG to write up the HTMLWG ehis about this as a versioning strategy. Aslo to point out the dangers of silently corrrecting errors (unless yo promis to do it for ever)
21:28:56 [DanC_lap]
ack ht
21:28:56 [Zakim]
ht, you wanted to ask for helpful analogies
21:29:02 [DanC_lap]
ack next
21:29:03 [Zakim]
noah, you wanted to dive a bit on processor conformance requirements
21:29:45 [noah]
21:29:52 [noah]
Validating and non-validating processors alike MUST report violations of this specification's well-formedness constraints in the content of the document entity and any other parsed entities that they read.
21:30:52 [noah]
21:30:52 [noah]
[Definition: A violation of the rules of this specification; results are undefined. Unless otherwise specified, failure to observe a prescription of this specification indicated by one of the keywords MUST, REQUIRED, MUST NOT, SHALL and SHALL NOT is an error. Conforming software MAY detect and report an error and MAY recover from it.]
21:31:09 [timbl]
We look at 1.2 in the XML spec
21:31:21 [DanC_lap]
HT: hmm... maybe "draconian error handling" isn't error handling... it's document reporting
21:31:47 [timbl]
N: The XML rules here ofetn don't meet the needs of the HTML5 spe
21:31:49 [timbl]
21:32:19 [DanC_lap]
q+ to push back on "lots of xml processors" ; one "xml processor" product category was endosed by design, and it worked for a certain market
21:32:49 [timbl]
... one could however define processors which react differently, with different conformance requirments on the *software*.
21:35:17 [timbl]
T: Agree that the HTML5 spec does not distinguish between defining the language and defining application behaviour, wich is a problem.
21:38:48 [timbl]
N: I think the XHTML people could have allowed non-draconian error handlign, but some people felt that under XML rules they could not.
21:39:00 [raman]
can I still call in?
21:39:21 [ht]
HST: I was asking NM to drill a bit because I thought there was no coherent 'error recovery' story for XHTML short of the full HTML5 story
21:39:39 [Zakim]
21:39:49 [raman]
just joined
21:40:37 [noah]
Right, my point was narrower: if XHTML stuck with the design that "correct" input is always well form, they could have still chosen to specify non-brittle recovery (and rendering) for some or all non-well formed documents.
21:41:19 [Stuart]
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21:42:02 [timbl]
Raman: You can'r eresolve this question until you have decided whether yo belive in modular architecture
21:42:14 [timbl]
If you don't have modules you won't have layers
21:42:36 [timbl]
If you need modularity then you will need layering.
21:43:10 [timbl]
... the only way yo can have modularity an layering is if
21:43:23 [timbl]
... [not understood]
21:43:40 [Stuart]
I think that raman is talking about upward delegation of error handling to the layer(s) above.
21:43:54 [timbl]
... The XML processor should tell the guy aboev it -- here is the rest of it, deal with it. I think fatal error was fatally bad choice of term. I don't think it should fail.
21:43:56 [timbl]
21:44:53 [timbl]
... In a layered system for an errro behaviour to be defin edin mltiple places
21:45:15 [ht]
q+ to ask for helpful analogies
21:45:22 [timbl]
T: You need to be able to be much more sophisticaed when you bit an XML error -- yo have to be able to continue after eferro
21:45:56 [timbl]
R: you ahve as an application to be able to chose, to tell hte parser to d things like insert a <i> or something.... there is no one way to recover from error.
21:46:21 [timbl]
R: John Cohen's fixup rules in his parser do that/
21:46:32 [ht]
Crucial observation there: XML error recovery must depend on help from the application, based on the language
21:47:03 [timbl]
T: This of course makes the software more yukky.
21:47:45 [timbl]
R: Recovery is very context-dependent. YOu fidn a free-floating input element will insert a form.
21:49:12 [Stuart]
21:49:16 [Stuart]
ack jar
21:49:16 [Zakim]
jar, you wanted to say how Scheme did it (optional features etc)
21:50:19 [DanC_lap]
(tim, "arguments against doing it" -- doing what, please?)
21:50:21 [timbl]
J: HTML5 is interesting .. but let us start by going back to HTML
21:50:58 [ht]
q+ ht2 to say something about the tension between the defn of "an XML document" and the assumption of streaming interaction
21:51:22 [timbl]
(danc, the fact that the parser softwae interface has to be yukky weights against using these techniques for versioning, to do these levels of error correction)
21:51:34 [timbl]
J: I remember the idea o optiionl features in scheme.
21:52:06 [timbl]
.. "If you had something lije this, then you ought to do it in this way"
21:52:51 [timbl]
... The problem was that things were done in differet ways, which makes it dificult to read programs written for systems with these features.
21:53:39 [timbl]
... Here, the error recovery was being specified independently by specs at many different places in the spec.
21:54:57 [timbl]
... It seems to makes sense that one does error handling .. but you don't have to enforce it, you have to do it in this way.
21:54:58 [noah]
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21:55:03 [timbl]
s/going back to HTML/going back to XML/
21:55:57 [Stuart]
I think that *if* one were to take the upward delegation view of the world, just like you might have a data model (eg infoset), one would also need an interaction model (eg. error and recovery event/action vocab) between the 'parser' and the user of the 'parser'
21:56:26 [Ashok]
21:56:43 [Stuart]
ack Stuart
21:56:43 [Zakim]
Stuart, you wanted to ask about xhtml error handling as a user facing technology (in response to ht's comment contrasting html5 v xml error handling)
21:57:51 [DanC_lap]
(this business of saying XML is totally separate from HTML is wierd, to me; I got W3C to work on XML on the basis that it would be deployed much like HTML)
22:00:49 [DanC_lap]
the feedback cycle is much to long and/or unreliable
22:00:59 [DanC_lap]
ack tim
22:01:04 [Stuart]
ack danc
22:01:04 [Zakim]
DanC_lap, you wanted to push back on "lots of xml processors" ; one "xml processor" product category was endosed by design, and it worked for a certain market
22:01:14 [DanC_lap]
ack next
22:01:15 [Zakim]
ht, you wanted to ask for helpful analogies
22:01:39 [ht]
HST: XHTML is an XML application which could have chosen a much richer way to respond to XML errors -- perhaps by putting up a frozen picture of "what this page might have been supposed to be like"
22:01:41 [timbl]
tim: Random thought: Maybe one could detect when a user is the person who wrote the page because they us the refresh button a lot.
22:01:49 [timbl]
S: Or they use file:// URIs a lot?
22:02:06 [timbl]
T: (Then you could give them help making it betrter))
22:02:28 [ht]
s/S: Or/H: Or/
22:02:34 [timbl]
DC: The business of separateing the HTML and XML discssion is werird to me.
22:02:35 [Stuart]
22:03:08 [timbl]
... The XML errorhandling spec does satisfy a large community, but for a very large community then the parsers the add error handling.
22:03:20 [DanC_lap]
ack ht
22:03:20 [Zakim]
ht2, you wanted to say something about the tension between the defn of "an XML document" and the assumption of streaming interaction
22:03:41 [Ashok]
22:03:52 [timbl]
HT: C compilers - no one ever made an error correcting C parser.
22:03:58 [Stuart]
22:04:12 [jar]
there was an error correcting PL/C compiler
22:04:35 [Stuart]
q+ ht, you wanted to ask for helpful analogies
22:04:38 [timbl]
Raman: the only thing whcih is needed for te XML world was that there should be an API between the parser and the applications.
22:04:45 [timbl]
22:05:38 [timbl]
H: I would like som ebetter analogy -- C is not a useful one.
22:05:45 [timbl]
... I need other examples of layering
22:06:17 [timbl]
q+ to point out that software in the C days was small and memory space cstly and the complexity of a C compiler would have been one factor
22:06:47 [raman]
culturally, that draconian error handling was a pushback that was a result of people rebounding from the mess that went before it
22:06:59 [DanC_lap]
quite, raman
22:07:24 [raman]
for an instant I thought you were saying "quiet!":-)
22:07:31 [DanC_lap]
22:07:46 [ht]
and error-correcting C processors -- I should have said "made a commercial success with a widely deployed and used C compiler"
22:07:48 [timbl]
H: Then t has to deal with the fact that hte XML parser is not just a BNF and it is in fact in a spec in a layer. The XML spec tries to balance the two thinsg you need to know (1) this is not a valid document and (2) this is what wec can do with it now
22:07:56 [jar]
XML draconian errors, and HTML5 clarity over how to handle errors, are both solutions to the *same* problem - that of undesired extensions
22:08:07 [Stuart]
ack ashok
22:08:15 [ht]
s/valid document/XML document at all/
22:08:34 [DanC_lap]
did the meeting get extended?
22:08:37 [timbl]
Ashok: We have beene talking about XML error handling in theory. Does someone have an actual implementayon of a parser with error handling in it?
22:08:48 [Stuart]
q+ to come back to Henry's original question as a way of wrapping up.
22:08:59 [Stuart]
zakim, please close the queue
22:08:59 [Zakim]
ok, Stuart, the speaker queue is closed
22:08:59 [timbl]
H: Yes, two: one a rconstruction of the other
22:09:09 [timbl]
A: Good stuff?
22:09:23 [Stuart]
22:09:28 [Stuart]
ack timbl
22:09:28 [Zakim]
timbl, you wanted to point out that software in the C days was small and memory space cstly and the complexity of a C compiler would have been one factor
22:10:39 [timbl]
22:10:54 [Stuart]
ack stuart
22:10:54 [Zakim]
Stuart, you wanted to come back to Henry's original question as a way of wrapping up.
22:16:27 [DanC_lap]
action Henry: follow up on error handling thread (
22:16:28 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-199 - Follow up on error handling thread ( [on Henry S. Thompson - due 2008-12-16].
22:16:39 [DanC_lap]
action-199 due 15 Jan 2009
22:16:39 [trackbot]
ACTION-199 Follow up on error handling thread ( due date now 15 Jan 2009
22:16:46 [DanC_lap]
22:16:46 [trackbot]
ACTION-199 -- Henry S. Thompson to follow up on error handling thread ( -- due 2009-01-15 -- OPEN
22:16:46 [trackbot]
22:17:02 [DanC_lap]
action-199: see
22:17:02 [trackbot]
ACTION-199 Follow up on error handling thread ( notes added
22:17:50 [timbl]
topic: Admin
22:18:22 [timbl]
Ashok: The conference rooms for the meeting in March 3-5 at Oracle will be booked. At Oracle HQ
22:18:57 [DanC_lap]
(ht, I connected your action to tagSoup, but I wonder about connecting it to errorHandling-20)
22:18:58 [jar]
rrsagent, pointer
22:18:58 [RRSAgent]
22:19:02 [timbl]
Ashok: The conference rooms for the meeting in March 3-5 at Oracle are booked. At Oracle HQ
22:19:12 [timbl]
22:19:18 [timbl]
scibenick: done
22:19:22 [timbl]
scibenick: none
22:19:28 [timbl]
22:20:39 [timbl]
RESOLVED: Re-open Issue 20
22:20:47 [timbl]
22:21:41 [jar]
rrsagent, make logs world-visible
22:21:54 [DanC_lap]
rrsagent, make logs world-readable
22:21:55 [Zakim]
22:22:22 [Zakim]
22:22:25 [Zakim]
22:22:27 [Zakim]
TAG_f2f()9:00AM has ended
22:22:27 [Zakim]
Attendees were MIT-Star, Dave, Raman
22:27:59 [raman]
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23:06:46 [ht]
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