14:10:50 RRSAgent has joined #ogws 14:10:50 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/12/09-ogws-irc 14:10:58 rrsagent, set log public 14:11:35 Meeting: Oil & Gas Workshop, Houston, 2008-12-09 14:20:14 Roger has joined #ogws 14:33:42 Hi. 14:52:48 kendall has joined #ogws 14:53:06 heh, not a big IRC crowd apparently :) 14:54:14 no... 14:54:18 but maybe more will come 14:57:09 ah, the famous chevron 'safety moment' 14:59:22 LeeF has joined #ogws 15:02:13 robert has joined #ogws 15:05:10 norheimd has joined #ogws 15:06:01 rdecarlo73 has joined #ogws 15:11:46 mario has joined #ogws 15:14:46 scribenick: ivan 15:14:58 Topic: Steve Bratt's presentation 15:15:29 -> http://www.w3.org/2008/Talks/1209-W3C-EnergyOandG-Workshop/Intro-W3C-OandG-bratt.pdf Steve's slides 15:36:05 Ono pap, fluor corp: is there an exponential grow with the number of companies in the hcls group? 15:36:18 s/Ono pap/Onno Paap 15:36:52 steve: no, it increases but not exponentially. They said there is no one place where people can really get together, we know that w3c does not have any particular agenda.. 15:37:24 onno: our goal is to go for a special group for process plan, what is the best way to start? 15:37:49 steve: they started with very broad goals in hcls, but after their workshop they set up task forces 15:38:04 ... they need the right people to set that up 15:38:11 ... this is something that has to be done 15:38:16 Robin has joined #ogws 15:38:31 roger: chevron has been a w3c member since 2000, I was at the start at the hcls 15:39:02 ... one of the advantages is also that one can get to know some of the most extraordinary people in the industry 15:39:02 ... it is a huge advantage 15:39:55 Topic: Jim Crompton keynote 15:41:30 -> http://www.w3.org/2008/12/ogws-slides/Crompton.pdf Jim Crompton's slides 15:42:49 steve has joined #ogws 15:45:16 did Jim say 6500 feet of water? 15:45:19 impressive 15:45:24 yes 15:45:29 with some linked component at 7k 15:58:09 jim: challenge is to bring data we can produce to the analytic people/software in a timely fashion 16:13:28 mario has joined #ogws 16:22:26 Richard Sears, Shell/MIT: this is not a chevron problem alone, i discussed at shell we discussed that the knowledge is jsut huge, we know that the data is there but we cannot find it.. shell people said they are interviewing retireees to know what they know 16:23:28 jeremy: you speak about increase data quallity, what I think is more important is the quality of the metadata 16:23:41 ... then you can integrate it in proper fashion 16:24:30 Topic: Bertrand du Castel, history perspectives 16:26:47 bertrand: in the 70's the industry began to build up their own database 16:27:28 ... we then went tot he 80's we removed the databases to commercial systems 16:27:47 ... we saw the first companies selling products 16:28:08 ... but at the end of the 80's all looked different and that created problems 16:28:30 ... we are in a risk sharing industry, when we build platforms we want to share the risks, but we then have to share data 16:28:44 ... this is not out of love but out of necessity 16:28:59 ... there were two ways to happen 16:29:17 ... some companies tried to foster their view, some others wanted to let it do together 16:29:35 ... in the early 90's a set of organizations were created to build common data models 16:29:41 ... that did not work. 16:30:10 ... we tried to build an esperanto for the oil field and and the fate was one of esperanto. it did not work 16:30:57 ... what we did was to look at the problem at a different manner. 16:31:22 ... we tried to to find ways to speak together. focusing not on common model but on common model of exchanging 16:31:46 ... we created something that was a success. the idea of exchanging through xml was successful 16:32:48 ... what we have a good conceptualization for what exploration is today 16:33:00 Joined the POSC organization that had a budget of 8 million annually.  However with this annual budget conclusion was that there was no ROI 16:33:10 ... we have a good understanding what we are talking about 16:33:26 ... we are capable of going to the next level, to express the value of that understanding 16:33:35 ... that is what we are tallking about now 16:33:54 ... maybe we are the 80's to make a huge mistake or the 90's to really do what we need 17:01:11 Topic: Desing and Implementation of a ...., Ram Soma et al 17:01:28 -> http://www.w3.org/2008/12/ogws-slides/Design_and_Implementation_of_a_Semantic_Web_Solution.pdf slides 17:04:21 IAM: Integrated Asset Management 17:08:19 IAM contains a "Metacatalog" which is an OWL triple store 17:09:44 IAM development started in late 2004 and target to complete late 2008 17:15:34 Use of upper ontologies have proved to be hard 17:17:25 During the project it was necessary to change/extend the ontology 17:17:55 These changes resulted in change management problems 17:21:02 The expantion of the ontology resulted in "dirty" queries which required the maintenance of SPARQL 17:23:22 Fred van Home: as the ontology evolved did it break the queries a lot, and you have added concept that break the queries 17:24:05 ...: when you have to break the ontology because that is what the evolution requires, than this happens, then the semantics may become different 17:24:25 ... it is hard not to break queries when you evolve an ontology 17:24:53 s/...:/amol/ 17:25:20 fred van home: so you did change the meaning of previous terms 17:25:43 ... you use a term 'well' to keep it as a superclass, but you have to introduce new subclasses 17:26:08 Ram: it does not necessarily happen a lot, but the point is to know when and how it happens 17:26:10 amol: it is also a question of style to define ontologies 17:26:28 ... we approached to follow as requirements evolve 17:26:47 robin benjamins: that is the way i see it on th ebusinees side, one goes bottom up 17:27:05 ram: that means we have to go a pragmatic way in ontology design 17:28:30 Topic: Semantics for the people, too, Lee Feigenbaum et al 17:29:12 (slides are not yet on the Web) 17:43:23 Emphasizes the modeling of a domain – information modeling free of technology stores like relational database, XML, etc 17:43:33 a. The area where we can extract more automation is through the integration of silo data.  This takes a considerable expertise and resources.   Solution is to use “people power” 17:43:48 Everyone loves Excel.  It is our most dominant application/data store 17:43:59 Cambridge Semantics vision is to tie the model with Excel, and machine processing 17:44:19 Approach: target PRODML and WITSML as a useful machine representation 17:45:08 Goal is to transform content in Excel to PRODML 17:46:24 Approach is to use a program/macro called Anzo in Excel to perform transformation 17:47:06 Anzo allows for mapping of Excel cells to an ontology 17:48:25 Anzo uses templates to apply against similarly structured Excel to reuse ontology mappings 17:49:49 Anso Expose is another application that allows you to work with RDF data.  Loads in data from a Anzo mapped Excel 17:50:47 Anzo Expose provides visualization to support analysis 17:52:50 Anzo Expose an convert content to PRODML 17:54:25 Anzo Expose supports mashups between content from Excel sources with Google maps, etc 17:54:55 bertrand: nobody want to use these kind of tools... you ask the human to create computer perspective... 17:55:16 lee: we tried to automate what we could and these things can be done autoamtically 17:55:25 ... but people are already doing this but doing it manually 17:55:46 .... thousands of hours are already used to do this, this is an improvement over there 17:56:09 roger: when we saw that is that if somebody changes a spreadsheet, all changes are propagated all around 17:56:20 ... the spreadsheet becomes part of the business information 17:57:05 ??: the problem is that people do not really use spreadsheet well, can you go back to produce better spreadsheets? 17:57:30 lee: we plan to do that, create ranges, better formulae, etc, but it is also difficult to do it 17:57:35 question was from Neil McNoughton 17:58:09 oops...McNaughton 17:58:16 s/??/neil mcnaughton/ 18:00:44 Topic: Chevron position paper 18:00:56 -> http://www.w3.org/2008/12/ogws-slides/Chevron_Position_Paper.pdf slides 18:01:01 norheimd has joined #ogws 18:03:55 LeeF has joined #ogws 18:06:40 Chevron is on path to optimizing the entire information change 18:07:34 s/change/chain/ 18:10:24 The number one role of Semantic Web is data exchange of information between applications 18:13:32 Pilot: ITC/ETC – originally an internal collaborative effort.  To develop a way for Chevron to search its documents 18:16:27 Focus was on a subset of technical data.  Began be identify the enties in the data.  Then developed ontology.  Created an RDF store.  Discovered that RDF as a standard was solid.  Learned during the project how to develop ontologies.  They determined that developing ontologies in a modular method was best.  To define the universal proved to be out of scope 18:16:56 Roger has joined #ogws 18:17:16 Used TopBraid application to develop ontologies 18:18:57 The resulting solution/approach was discovered to work on other use cases 18:19:12 Is this a useful doc re: URI schemes? 18:19:12 http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/NOTE-cooluris-20081203/ 18:19:22 ... or is there another one from HCLS IG? 18:19:49 steve has changed the topic to: Sem Web for Oil and Gas Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2008/11/ogws-agenda.html 18:19:54 It's ok, but I'm not sure it really addresses the types of challenges that we're talking about here 18:20:04 I think that this document would have been very helpful when they had their biggest troubles. 18:20:13 But I don't think it was published at the time. 18:20:31 Well, at least somewhat helpful. 18:20:41 They were really struggling at first. 18:20:44 :-) I just meant that it doesn't deal so much with how to get stable URIs, I don't think 18:21:27 Key Challenges: ontology development is complex, needs to be hand built, expertise is  hard to acquire 18:21:31 so what are the challenges? it wasn't clear from what he said (well, clear to me) 18:22:16 Not clear to me either - my guess was that it was about how to go from file (data) to stable identifier in the face of changing contents - but that's largely me projecting my thoughts onto what he said :) 18:22:25 SPE is setting up an open oil field ontology 18:23:06 re:uris - I agree, stable URI is a big issue for environments where ownership changes over time 18:23:37 They kept making URI's based on schemes that they regretted later. 18:23:41 Sounds more like a modeling than URI issue per se, but the boundaries can be fuzzy. 18:24:41 ChevronRoger has joined #ogws 18:25:07 Well, it was the NAMES of the URI's, not the concepts being modeled our their relationships. 18:25:22 I'm not quite sure exactly why it gave them such fits, I'm just reporting it. 18:25:27 YOu might ask Mario. 18:26:04 but that's a modeling issue in some sense, since URIs are supposed to be opaque (the URI string itself, I mean) and the data about the resources they (opaquely) identify should be in some representation (RDF, etc), which gets us to modeling per se 18:26:45 I don't think they were opaque enough, particularly at the beginning. 18:26:58 that can be a problem :) 18:27:09 thanks for clarifying 18:27:10 As I said, I think that doc would have helped them. 18:28:49 robin benjamins: we see this as a long term investment 18:28:56 mib_49yfqw has joined #ogws 18:28:57 ... at the same time i have to deliver annual value 18:29:18 ... the strategy is a long term vision and start to bring in your current needs 18:30:22 rrsagent, draft minutes 18:30:22 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/12/09-ogws-minutes.html ivan 18:32:50 norheimd has joined #ogws 19:27:54 kendall has joined #ogws 19:31:19 norheimd has joined #ogws 19:33:24 Darius has joined #ogws 19:57:44 Roger has joined #ogws 19:58:03 ChevronRoger has joined #ogws 19:59:16 Topic: Use Case: Semantic Intelligence for Oil & Gas Business, J Brooke Aker 19:59:50 -> http://www.w3.org/2008/12/ogws-slides/ENI_Dante.pdf slides 20:02:44 Web 3.0 is putting Web 1.0 on its head 20:03:00 Web 1.0 is single point of content with mass consumption 20:03:14 Web 2.0 is a social web 20:03:33 Web 3.0 mass production and pinpoint consumption 20:10:19 RogerCutler has joined #ogws 20:15:28 kendall has joined #ogws 20:18:41 ??: how do you handle modifiers 20:19:15 (scribe lost track, sorry...) 20:21:37 lee: do they use this with a human layer in that, or is the result good enough out of the box? 20:22:06 The answer is: there is always a human being (linguist) who takes account of the uniqueness of terms in the industry 20:23:42 ???: is there a way to use the information you get from this process to feed back to content authors so that they can help produce content that can be processed with greater precision? 20:24:22 ??? -> Neil McNaughton 20:24:39 s/???/Neil MacNaughton/ 20:25:18 Brooke: in our case, there is a feedback loop ... there is a web interface to require a concept rather than a keyword - think that is a reasonable sweet spot to guide people 20:25:28 scribenick: LeeF 20:25:50 Topic: C&P position paper, Kendall Clark 20:26:26 -> http://www.w3.org/2008/12/ogws-slides/C_and_P.pdf Kendall's slides 20:34:10 kendall: summarizing houston weather, making the business case for Semantic Web, and updating software on presentation laptop without missing a beat 20:35:39 FrankC has joined #ogws 20:36:08 Finally! 20:39:27 neilmcn has joined #ogws 20:52:08 Integration and analysis feedback loop 20:53:49 more integration --> more analysis --> more integration... 20:55:16 Sounds familiar in O&G IT 20:57:34 ???: What do I get from semantic web technologies that's better than what we're doing today for things like skills databases with Excel? 20:57:56 s/???/Onno Paap/ 20:57:58 Kendall: it was more than that - incorporated LDAP, skills definitions, technical publication repositories, ... Was between 8 and 10 different sources that needed to be integrated 20:58:46 May Hsu: we're encouraged to reuse ontologies - do you start from scratch or do you use existing ontologies in a new project (like NASA)? 20:59:21 kendall: we did a bit of both - where we could we, reused or extended existing ontologies (e.g. extended FOAF for people data). Used an XML schema (converted to OWL) for competency 21:00:11 next speaker: Jeremy Carroll 21:00:29 TopQuadrant 21:00:56 -> http://www.w3.org/2008/11/ogws-papers/carroll.pdf Jeremy Carroll / TopQuadrant position paper 21:08:10 Key Roles: Missed an important role on slide 6 - The Leader 21:17:00 following slides, demonstration of TopBraid Composer 21:20:19 D2RQ + similar for XML schema to map coordinate database & WITSML data to triples 21:21:44 ontology source demonstrated in TopBraid Composer: http://www.epsg.org & http://www.witsml.org 21:30:45 bertrand: if you had taken the data and built the ontology from scratch, what would the difference be? 21:31:52 Chip: there would be a much richer class structure, rather than the flat generated one - you might have started with an upper ontology and built the model from 21:32:01 ... also would have thought more about ways to force interoperability in the model 21:32:17 Jeremy: another key difference is cost 22:09:45 mario has joined #ogws 22:10:19 neilmcn has joined #ogws 22:23:54 Topic: Using Semantic Web technologies to accelerate Deployment of ISO 15926 in Open Applications, Manoj Dharwadkar 22:24:04 -> http://www.w3.org/2008/12/ogws-slides/Bentley.pdf slides 22:36:30 We would like to collect discussion topics for tomorrow's panel discussion 22:46:15 Topic: ISO 15926 for interoperability, Onno Paap 22:46:22 -> http://www.w3.org/2008/12/ogws-slides/Fluor.pdf slides 22:47:09 scribenick: FrankC 22:49:12 ISO 15926 Interoperability standard 22:49:59 Neutral layer used for data integration -->open layer? 22:50:42 bubble chart for the Uso classes 22:51:04 and their relationships 22:51:42 FIATECH choose to go with ISO 15926 as a standard 22:54:49 Interoperability workshop held in Houston May 2008 resulting in a number of vendors (Intergraph, Oracle, Adobe, Siemens, etc.) wanting to use ISO 15926 22:55:28 Enable data exchange between vendors that leverage the standard 22:57:25 ISO 15926 provides the ability to build common data models 22:58:53 Facade is a triple store 22:58:58 Lots of spreadsheets! 22:59:29 +1 spreadsheets 22:59:36 and +1 SPARQL 23:01:05 Legacy system models map to Facade --> you can the facade and map back to the system 23:02:27 -1 to the claim that you never federate into a central store... there are lots of use cases where that's perfectly sane 23:04:32 ISO/TC67 Oil industry standards 23:07:11 -1 to Excel is out :-) 23:07:25 DNV paper: Wanted a simple, compliant interface 23:09:13 RDL has 20 thousands property classes 23:10:13 Template --> predicate 23:11:30 Template can be implicit with rule 23:12:29 Publishing SWRL rule in repository as well. 23:15:05 Translation of propriatary databases through an ontology DB / templates 23:15:45 Standardize data exchange in template format 23:18:38 Knowledge representing data models with rules being described with templates 23:19:21 I wonder if they've looked at OWL 2's new features related to n-ary datatype predicates and some concrete domain reasoning that might clean up a lot of this template and datatype stuff 23:19:25 Yet another modeling technique 23:19:38 Probably not 23:20:13 yes, that's my guess; but it might really simplify some of the stuff they've had to add-on to handle their modeling requirements. Which would be a win, presumably. 23:21:28 No joke 23:22:11 well, i'm being circumspect about that on purpose since I don't really understand this templates thing *at all*. But maybe I'm the only one. :> 23:22:16 Part 7 template using RDF syntax but with yet another axiomatic definition 23:24:11 me neither 23:26:57 Ivan: Security and provenance issue for SW still have more work to be done 23:28:03 ah, XACML gets a mention, nice 23:28:46 but that's a major faux pas to mention an OASIS standard at a W3C event 23:29:58 :)_ 23:30:57 You hit the nail on its head! 23:32:24 (for the record, I was joking and don't really think this is an actual problem!) 23:36:03 ram has joined #ogws 23:38:19 Robin has left #ogws 23:41:39 rdecarlo73 has left #ogws 23:41:43 norheimd has joined #ogws 23:44:18 neilmcn has joined #ogws 23:46:49 Darius has left #ogws 23:47:20 norheimd has left #ogws 23:56:06 rrsagent, draft minutes 23:56:06 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/12/09-ogws-minutes.html ivan 23:56:14 rrsagent, bye 23:56:14 I see no action items