IRC log of mediaann on 2008-12-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

07:59:00 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/12/09-mediaann-irc
07:59:17 [joakim]
meeting F2F Gent
07:59:32 [joakim]
meeting: F2F Gent
08:01:06 [Daniel]
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08:01:29 [joakim]
zakim, this is mawg
08:01:29 [Zakim]
joakim, I see IA_MAWG()3:00AM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be mawg".
08:01:41 [joakim]
zakim, this will be mawg
08:01:41 [Zakim]
ok, joakim; I see IA_MAWG()3:00AM scheduled to start now
08:04:04 [Daniel]
welcome media annotation WG and self introduction
08:04:38 [Daniel]
Evain from EBU working for EBU, TV-anytime and metadata related technologies
08:05:06 [Daniel]
Wonson from ETRI working for sematic web who is a co-editor of use case and req. document
08:06:44 [Daniel]
Chris and Sam Univ of Gent, working for image annotation and metadata of sematic web
08:06:59 [wonsuk]
s/Wonson/Wonsuk
08:08:14 [joakim]
Bailer from Johanneum inst
08:08:42 [joakim]
media semantic incubtaor group
08:09:07 [frank]
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08:09:38 [Daniel]
Tobias from Univ. of Innsbruk working for several research items.
08:11:03 [Daniel]
Joamin from Ericsson. research fields are amlost multimedia. mostly working for metadata today
08:12:13 [Daniel]
Felix at W3C team contact
08:13:21 [joakim]
Felix will move to Pottsdam to teach at university
08:15:02 [joakim]
Frank has a passed in AI, how to use AI for various applications
08:15:10 [Daniel]
Frank Univ of Amasterdam
08:15:19 [joakim]
Frank has been working with MPEG-7
08:16:15 [joakim]
Victor arrived from Bareclona
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08:20:49 [fsasaki]
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08:22:10 [Daniel]
number of f2f meetings depend on how much works to be done within WG. During this meeting, we will at least discuss the next f2f meeting data and place
08:25:00 [joakim]
updated agenda to discuss the API today
08:26:54 [fsasaki]
topic: XMP review
08:27:02 [joakim]
scribe: tobias
08:27:16 [fsasaki]
scribeNick: tobiasb
08:27:53 [fsasaki]
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/wiki/XMP
08:29:34 [tobiasb]
fsasaki: We start with a review of the Dublin Core schema
08:31:22 [tobiasb]
Discussion of dc:contributor: it is very general needs to be specialized
08:31:36 [joakim]
Mediachain from MPEG-7 defines "roles"
08:32:26 [joakim]
Do you want to point to refernce. The problem is according to Evain to find the most update role list
08:32:48 [tobiasb]
EBU also defined roles, TVAnytime too. The question is which role define we adhere to.
08:36:11 [tobiasb]
DC:Coverage is again a very general property; should be refined in more specialized field
08:36:34 [tobiasb]
pierre: we should at least refine it to spatial/temporal coverage
08:41:32 [tobiasb]
XMP in its Dublin Core Schema part only uses the basic Dublin Core basic terms
08:42:58 [tobiasb]
pierre: someone developed a specification how to write DC strings
08:44:21 [tobiasb]
fsasaki: we should try to use common and already defined properties as much as possible
08:46:36 [tobiasb]
fasaki: discussion about mapping schemas: highly complex even if you take the simple case of mapping the representation of person names in different standards
08:47:16 [tobiasb]
joakim: DC leaves room for interpretation as it is defined very general
08:48:20 [tobiasb]
fsaski: we can for example define an own creator-property with more specialized information.
08:49:35 [tobiasb]
pierre: Problem from Europeana is the demand to map back to Dublin Core which looses information
08:51:05 [tobiasb]
pierre: on the on hand you have a very simple DC and on the other hand you have a very complex MPEG-7 standard. How do you bring them together?
08:52:38 [tobiasb]
fsasaki: we will have to arrange with the loss of information.
08:54:10 [tobiasb]
frank: you can point to locations how to get more information (available in MPEG-7 or any other format available)
08:58:57 [tobiasb]
fsaski: points out to examples from the API listing mappings for createDate
09:02:07 [tobiasb]
fsasaki: The group decided to put XMP in the center of the group and will discuss it very detailed.
09:03:28 [tobiasb]
wbailer: the api should abstract from the format behind and should return the same all the time.
09:03:39 [tobiasb]
wbailer: more detailed information should be optional
09:07:33 [tobiasb]
fsasaki: jumping to the ontology deliverable: Developers have to implement the mappings; another question which arises: when is an implementation conformant to our specification?
09:07:42 [tobiasb]
joakim: perhaps we need a test suite.
09:08:22 [tobiasb]
fsaski: we could maybe to think of specifying profiles with differing complexity
09:10:04 [tobiasb]
fsasaki: DC data, description, format, language, rights, subject, title: all yes
09:12:45 [tobiasb]
fsasaki: XMP indentifier is qualified using a schema
09:13:15 [raphael]
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09:14:08 [tobiasb]
wbailer: it should be open to support different identification schemes
09:17:33 [tobiasb]
fsasaki: future more complex mappings should be supported meaning that other parties should be able to extend the mapping specification.
09:21:22 [tobiasb]
fsasaki: rating-yes but we should define it more detailed.
09:21:58 [tobiasb]
joakim: rating can mean anything; parental rating/subjective rating/etc.
09:22:27 [tobiasb]
wbailer: With MPEG-7 you can define rating schemes.
09:23:38 [tobiasb]
ACTION: Felix to check XMP rating
09:23:38 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-43 - Check XMP rating [on Felix Sasaki - due 2008-12-16].
09:26:43 [tobiasb]
pierre: worried about just having a container for rights information; because you can define very detailed schemas; or you can make it simple and point to external information
09:27:12 [raphael]
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09:27:17 [raphael]
Raphael: go through the spatial fragments specifications (image maps, MPEG-7, SVG)
09:28:57 [tobiasb]
victor: probably we should define a certificate field.
09:29:18 [tobiasb]
victor: for some use cases we need more complex rights schemes like ORDL or something else.
09:29:36 [tobiasb]
tobias: creative commons licesing schema defines basic terms which could be adopted
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10:02:57 [VeroniqueM]
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10:10:21 [wbailer]
scribe werner
10:10:26 [wbailer]
scribeNick wbailer
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10:12:04 [wbailer]
topic: XMP review - Media Management schema
10:12:10 [VeroniqueM]
I can call, yes, what is the number?
10:12:16 [fsasaki]
scribe: wbailer
10:12:42 [VeroniqueM]
ok!
10:13:37 [Zakim]
IA_MAWG()3:00AM has now started
10:13:45 [Zakim]
+[VrijeUni]
10:14:07 [VeroniqueM]
Zakim, [VrijeUni] is me
10:14:07 [Zakim]
+VeroniqueM; got it
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10:15:11 [Zakim]
+ +329331aaaa
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10:16:22 [fsasaki]
present: Jean-Pierre, Werner, Bailer, Daniel, Frank, Joakim, Wonsuk, Veronique
10:16:44 [fsasaki]
present+ Raphael(onIRC9
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10:17:13 [wbailer]
present+ Tobias, Victor
10:18:50 [wbailer]
veronique: xmp:derivedFrom useful for 3 level description (idea-realisations-instance)
10:19:36 [wbailer]
veronique: useful mainly for cultural heritage UC
10:20:29 [wbailer]
felix: decide from UCs if needed
10:21:26 [wbailer]
chris: same as dc:source?
10:21:37 [fsasaki]
"Unique identifier of the work from which this resource was derived."
10:23:24 [wbailer]
chris: xmp:derivedFrom is same kind of information but more specific than dc:source
10:25:32 [wbailer]
felix: take both into account (xmp:derivedFrom related to dc:source)
10:26:48 [wbailer]
xmpMM:history: no - comments?
10:27:02 [wbailer]
frank: hook for user adaptation, should be included
10:28:40 [wbailer]
frank: example: users generate media items, if system should provide support for creation, this could be derived from history of previously created item
10:28:58 [wbailer]
frank: alternative is link to other kind of representation of this information
10:29:49 [wbailer]
tobias: relevant in creation of e.g. 3D items (derivation of content, modifications, ...)
10:30:38 [wbailer]
felix: reminds of conformance, there could be different levels of conformance (e.g. without history)
10:31:15 [VictorRodriguez]
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10:31:22 [wbailer]
felix: include xmp:history for some UCs
10:31:44 [victor]
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10:31:47 [wbailer]
ACTION: frank to check if xmp:history is applicable for the current use cases
10:31:47 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-44 - Check if xmp:history is applicable for the current use cases [on Frank Nack - due 2008-12-16].
10:32:43 [wbailer]
felix: xmpMM:Ingredients to be discussed with fragments WG
10:33:31 [wbailer]
frank: same applied to derivedFrom
10:34:01 [wbailer]
felix: in derivedFrom rather link to media item, with ingredients rather to fragment
10:34:31 [wbailer]
felix: xmpMM:InstanceID related to history
10:34:37 [wbailer]
joakim: important to have
10:36:00 [wbailer]
joakim: refers to content
10:37:06 [wbailer]
xmpMM:ManagedFrom, Manager, ManageTo: no
10:37:34 [wbailer]
xmp:MM:ManageUI: yes - comments?
10:38:13 [wbailer]
jean-pierre: depends on type of application, professional or end user
10:38:36 [wbailer]
jean-pierre: for content mgmt in professional information
10:39:16 [wbailer]
chris: same as dc:description?
10:39:54 [wbailer]
jean-pierre: no, description should not contain an identifier
10:41:29 [wbailer]
xmpMM:OriginalDocumentID: yes
10:42:18 [wbailer]
related to xmp:identifier?
10:43:26 [wbailer]
felix: general issue with XMP properties: how do applications use them, which mappings could make sense?
10:44:05 [wbailer]
jean-pierre: careful with trying to align with Adobe, focus should be what users need
10:44:49 [wbailer]
felix: hope that Adobe joins WG
10:45:08 [wbailer]
xmp:MMPantry, yes, related to 3 level
10:46:06 [wbailer]
xmpMM:Versions: no - comments?
10:46:27 [wbailer]
relation to xmp:history?
10:47:01 [wbailer]
topic: xmp review - Basic Job Ticket schema
10:48:18 [wbailer]
joakim: actors from creation tool manufacturers, end user applications and users - different interests, users should define requirements
10:48:44 [wbailer]
felix: users are important, all actors are needed to get solution implemented
10:50:29 [wbailer]
felix: approach: start with simple working implementation, extend in future versions
10:52:44 [wbailer]
topic: xmp review - Paged-text schema
10:52:58 [wbailer]
topic: xmp review - Dynamic Media schema
10:53:58 [wbailer]
agreed on excluded properties
10:54:26 [wbailer]
joakim: some included properties related to dc properties (e.g album)
10:55:24 [wbailer]
joakim: make connection to dc, explain difference in the mapping
10:56:43 [wbailer]
joakim: xmpDM:engineer - exclude
10:57:26 [wbailer]
joakim: xmpDM:composer related to dc:creator
10:58:49 [wbailer]
joakim: xmpDM:duration related to dc extent
10:59:23 [victor]
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11:00:43 [wbailer]
xmpDM:instrument, xmpDM:key, xmpDM:numberOfBeats -> dc:description
11:04:51 [wbailer]
felix: look at how xmp fields are used in applications
11:05:09 [wbailer]
joakim: sony ericsson is using xmp
11:05:43 [wbailer]
ACTION: joakim to look at how sony ericsson uses xmp
11:05:43 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-45 - Look at how sony ericsson uses xmp [on Joakim Söderberg - due 2008-12-16].
11:07:28 [wbailer]
topic: general approach of WG
11:07:50 [wbailer]
frank: is ontology supporting api or to build applications on ontology
11:08:37 [wbailer]
frank: use ontology for development of api, also design to be used by other people for app development
11:08:52 [VeroniqueM]
I think that it would be useful to have the ontology as an "interlingua"
11:09:01 [wbailer]
felix: maybe do not specify formal ontology, but just prose descriptions
11:09:32 [wbailer]
felix: avoid discussions rdf vs xml
11:09:54 [wbailer]
felix: keep door open for people to provide formal specification
11:10:26 [wbailer]
felix: conformance: which is the normative part of the spec?
11:11:29 [wbailer]
felix: choices: take into account mappings, implement api, rdf non-normative OR rdf normative, but different levels of conformance, including some without rdf
11:12:18 [wbailer]
felix: cf r05: providing the ontology as a set of terms
11:13:06 [wbailer]
joakim: good to have reference implementation
11:13:33 [wbailer]
joakim: also to demonstrate approach
11:13:47 [wbailer]
felix: test suite required for everything that's normative
11:14:28 [wbailer]
felix: tests and examples as soon as possible to make it easier for people to understand
11:16:33 [wbailer]
felix: shows internationalisation tag set test suite as example
11:17:30 [fsasaki]
http://www.w3.org/International/its/tests/
11:19:01 [wbailer]
wonsuk: create table of all considered properties and mappings (if possible) to other standards
11:19:37 [wbailer]
joakim: include in template
11:21:04 [wbailer]
tobias: content description - more important than other media properties for end user
11:21:49 [wbailer]
felix: more than covered by the xmp elements?
11:23:00 [wbailer]
jean-pierre: internet tv: use search engine for content, work on ontology for av content
11:23:36 [wbailer]
jean-pierre: users search eg by series, broadcast time
11:25:18 [wbailer]
jean-pierre: many xml based metadata formats
11:25:31 [wbailer]
jean-pierre: use semantic web to reach users
11:32:59 [wbailer]
felix: gotuit - hq metadata for search etc
11:33:33 [wbailer]
http://www.gotuit.com/about/pdf/CurrencyOfInternetVideo.pdf
11:37:45 [wbailer]
joakim: manual annotation possible for professional content, but not for UGC
11:39:55 [wbailer]
felix: 2 steps: ontology 1.0 (find content), ontology 2.0 for av content and services
11:40:27 [fsasaki]
ONTOLOGY 1.0
11:40:29 [fsasaki]
general mechanism to find content
11:40:31 [fsasaki]
different levels of description should you bring back to content.
11:40:32 [fsasaki]
Example: "I am looking for a program with title XYZ."
11:40:33 [wbailer]
jean-pierre: current approach: 1 class, only properties
11:40:34 [fsasaki]
ONTOLOGY 1.x, 2.0:
11:40:35 [fsasaki]
ontology for audivisual content and services
11:40:37 [fsasaki]
different levels of description should you bring back to content, work with sw technologies
11:40:38 [fsasaki]
many specs in broadcasting world today in XML (TV Anytime, ...). How to provide interoperability?
11:43:09 [wbailer]
rssagent, make logs public
11:48:33 [Zakim]
-VeroniqueM
12:12:46 [Zakim]
-conferenceRoom
12:12:47 [Zakim]
IA_MAWG()3:00AM has ended
12:12:49 [Zakim]
Attendees were VeroniqueM, +329331aaaa, conferenceRoom
12:41:10 [Daniel]
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irc bot restart in 3 minutes to reset state; if this will be too much of an inconvenience, comment on #sysreq know
12:41:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/12/09-mediaann-minutes.html fsasaki
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12:42:25 [fsasaki]
topic: presentation from chris
12:42:41 [Daniel]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:42:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/12/09-mediaann-minutes.html Daniel
12:42:47 [fsasaki]
chris presents PeCMan Metadata, metadata for managed personal content
12:43:14 [fsasaki]
http://www.ibbt.be/en/project/pecman
12:45:03 [fsasaki]
metadata standards like mpeg-7, dig35, EXIF, ... are mapped to the metadata model
12:45:40 [fsasaki]
http://multimedialab.elis.ugent.be/users/gmartens/Ontologies/PecMan/
12:46:32 [fsasaki]
mappings are OWL equivalence mappings
12:47:15 [wonsuk]
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12:47:18 [fsasaki]
http://multimedialab.elis.ugent.be/users/gmartens/Ontologies/PecMan/V1.0/
12:47:20 [fsasaki]
http://multimedialab.elis.ugent.be/users/gmartens/Ontologies/PecMan/V2.0/
12:48:15 [fsasaki]
retrieval of metadata content based on queries
12:48:24 [fsasaki]
result can be e.g. a dc:description
12:49:36 [fsasaki]
a dc:description is mapped to ontology, so that metaaccess is possible
12:50:42 [joakim]
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12:55:43 [fsasaki]
relation to XMP - most of properties are the same
12:55:48 [vmalais]
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12:56:34 [fsasaki]
ontology structuring is different because of use case of interontology linking, e.g. linking to person ontologies
12:57:59 [fsasaki]
action: Felix to bother Eric so that he gives AI to Chris about the metadata model from IBBT
12:58:00 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-46 - Bother Eric so that he gives AI to Chris about the metadata model from IBBT [on Felix Sasaki - due 2008-12-16].
13:00:05 [fsasaki]
topic: presentation from Tobias
13:00:10 [fsasaki]
RICO ontology
13:05:11 [fsasaki]
use case is also metadata retrieval
13:05:14 [fsasaki]
topic: MXM review
13:05:23 [fsasaki]
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/wiki/MXM
13:07:12 [tobiasb]
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13:19:16 [fsasaki]
victor presents MXM and we are discussing API format and relation between API and ontology
13:19:49 [fsasaki]
idea is to have API specified not specific to e.g. java or c++, but have a general description which can be implemented in specific framework
13:20:15 [fsasaki]
that allows to be specific in object and return type specification (e.g. Java) or not (e.g. javascript)
13:21:00 [fsasaki]
s/that allows/that allows for indiviual implementations/
13:22:37 [fsasaki]
topic: retrieving vs. setting of meta data
13:29:49 [fsasaki]
we are considering how or if to implement setting of metadata information. Question: how can this be implemented? What are protocol-specific requirements? What is necessary to implement setting information in addition to just say "setPropteryXYZ" instead of "getPropertyXYZ"?
13:29:59 [fsasaki]
issue of how to set data types
13:31:37 [fsasaki]
e.g. set a string or a date data type
13:41:22 [fsasaki]
issue how to get from information-lossy ontology to e.g. an adequate description in the target format
13:46:05 [fsasaki]
action: Werner and Frank to investiage existing approach for setting metadata on a "metamodel level" (or "ontology level")
13:46:05 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-47 - And Frank to investiage existing approach for setting metadata on a \"metamodel level\" (or \"ontology level\") [on Werner Bailer - due 2008-12-16].
14:27:21 [victor]
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14:28:37 [victor]
#waits
14:36:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/12/09-mediaann-minutes.html fsasaki
14:37:59 [Daniel]
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14:41:33 [vmalais]
logout
14:42:20 [VeroniqueM]
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14:42:32 [fsasaki]
topic: joint meeting with fragments WG
14:42:56 [fsasaki]
see http://www.w3.org/2008/12/09-mediafrag-irc#T14-42-12 and after
14:43:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/12/09-mediaann-minutes.html fsasaki
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14:43:27 [raphael]
go to #mediafrag
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14:47:07 [spark3]
please switch this IRC channel to mediafrag for this joint session
15:22:26 [fsasaki]
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15:54:45 [fsasaki]
action: Felix to send pointer to media fragments WG for review of uc&req doc, when it is ready
15:54:45 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-48 - Send pointer to media fragments WG for review of uc&req doc, when it is ready [on Felix Sasaki - due 2008-12-16].
16:02:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/12/09-mediaann-minutes.html fsasaki
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