07:59:00 RRSAgent has joined #mediaann 07:59:00 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/12/09-mediaann-irc 07:59:17 meeting F2F Gent 07:59:32 meeting: F2F Gent 08:01:06 Daniel has joined #mediaann 08:01:29 zakim, this is mawg 08:01:29 joakim, I see IA_MAWG()3:00AM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be mawg". 08:01:41 zakim, this will be mawg 08:01:41 ok, joakim; I see IA_MAWG()3:00AM scheduled to start now 08:04:04 welcome media annotation WG and self introduction 08:04:38 Evain from EBU working for EBU, TV-anytime and metadata related technologies 08:05:06 Wonson from ETRI working for sematic web who is a co-editor of use case and req. document 08:06:44 Chris and Sam Univ of Gent, working for image annotation and metadata of sematic web 08:06:59 s/Wonson/Wonsuk 08:08:14 Bailer from Johanneum inst 08:08:42 media semantic incubtaor group 08:09:07 frank has joined #mediaann 08:09:38 Tobias from Univ. of Innsbruk working for several research items. 08:11:03 Joamin from Ericsson. research fields are amlost multimedia. mostly working for metadata today 08:12:13 Felix at W3C team contact 08:13:21 Felix will move to Pottsdam to teach at university 08:15:02 Frank has a passed in AI, how to use AI for various applications 08:15:10 Frank Univ of Amasterdam 08:15:19 Frank has been working with MPEG-7 08:16:15 Victor arrived from Bareclona 08:17:10 tobiasb has joined #mediaann 08:20:49 fsasaki has joined #mediaann 08:22:10 number of f2f meetings depend on how much works to be done within WG. During this meeting, we will at least discuss the next f2f meeting data and place 08:25:00 updated agenda to discuss the API today 08:26:54 topic: XMP review 08:27:02 scribe: tobias 08:27:16 scribeNick: tobiasb 08:27:53 http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/wiki/XMP 08:29:34 fsasaki: We start with a review of the Dublin Core schema 08:31:22 Discussion of dc:contributor: it is very general needs to be specialized 08:31:36 Mediachain from MPEG-7 defines "roles" 08:32:26 Do you want to point to refernce. The problem is according to Evain to find the most update role list 08:32:48 EBU also defined roles, TVAnytime too. The question is which role define we adhere to. 08:36:11 DC:Coverage is again a very general property; should be refined in more specialized field 08:36:34 pierre: we should at least refine it to spatial/temporal coverage 08:41:32 XMP in its Dublin Core Schema part only uses the basic Dublin Core basic terms 08:42:58 pierre: someone developed a specification how to write DC strings 08:44:21 fsasaki: we should try to use common and already defined properties as much as possible 08:46:36 fasaki: discussion about mapping schemas: highly complex even if you take the simple case of mapping the representation of person names in different standards 08:47:16 joakim: DC leaves room for interpretation as it is defined very general 08:48:20 fsaski: we can for example define an own creator-property with more specialized information. 08:49:35 pierre: Problem from Europeana is the demand to map back to Dublin Core which looses information 08:51:05 pierre: on the on hand you have a very simple DC and on the other hand you have a very complex MPEG-7 standard. How do you bring them together? 08:52:38 fsasaki: we will have to arrange with the loss of information. 08:54:10 frank: you can point to locations how to get more information (available in MPEG-7 or any other format available) 08:58:57 fsaski: points out to examples from the API listing mappings for createDate 09:02:07 fsasaki: The group decided to put XMP in the center of the group and will discuss it very detailed. 09:03:28 wbailer: the api should abstract from the format behind and should return the same all the time. 09:03:39 wbailer: more detailed information should be optional 09:07:33 fsasaki: jumping to the ontology deliverable: Developers have to implement the mappings; another question which arises: when is an implementation conformant to our specification? 09:07:42 joakim: perhaps we need a test suite. 09:08:22 fsaski: we could maybe to think of specifying profiles with differing complexity 09:10:04 fsasaki: DC data, description, format, language, rights, subject, title: all yes 09:12:45 fsasaki: XMP indentifier is qualified using a schema 09:13:15 raphael has joined #mediaann 09:14:08 wbailer: it should be open to support different identification schemes 09:17:33 fsasaki: future more complex mappings should be supported meaning that other parties should be able to extend the mapping specification. 09:21:22 fsasaki: rating-yes but we should define it more detailed. 09:21:58 joakim: rating can mean anything; parental rating/subjective rating/etc. 09:22:27 wbailer: With MPEG-7 you can define rating schemes. 09:23:38 ACTION: Felix to check XMP rating 09:23:38 Created ACTION-43 - Check XMP rating [on Felix Sasaki - due 2008-12-16]. 09:26:43 pierre: worried about just having a container for rights information; because you can define very detailed schemas; or you can make it simple and point to external information 09:27:12 raphael has joined #mediaann 09:27:17 Raphael: go through the spatial fragments specifications (image maps, MPEG-7, SVG) 09:28:57 victor: probably we should define a certificate field. 09:29:18 victor: for some use cases we need more complex rights schemes like ORDL or something else. 09:29:36 tobias: creative commons licesing schema defines basic terms which could be adopted 09:36:29 rtroncy has joined #mediaann 10:02:57 VeroniqueM has joined #mediaann 10:09:55 tobiasb has joined #mediaann 10:10:11 wbailer has joined #mediaann 10:10:21 scribe werner 10:10:26 scribeNick wbailer 10:11:16 frank has joined #mediaann 10:12:04 topic: XMP review - Media Management schema 10:12:10 I can call, yes, what is the number? 10:12:16 scribe: wbailer 10:12:42 ok! 10:13:37 IA_MAWG()3:00AM has now started 10:13:45 +[VrijeUni] 10:14:07 Zakim, [VrijeUni] is me 10:14:07 +VeroniqueM; got it 10:14:13 joakim has joined #mediaann 10:15:11 + +329331aaaa 10:16:11 wonsuk has joined #mediaann 10:16:22 present: Jean-Pierre, Werner, Bailer, Daniel, Frank, Joakim, Wonsuk, Veronique 10:16:44 present+ Raphael(onIRC9 10:16:46 Daniel has joined #mediaann 10:17:13 present+ Tobias, Victor 10:18:50 veronique: xmp:derivedFrom useful for 3 level description (idea-realisations-instance) 10:19:36 veronique: useful mainly for cultural heritage UC 10:20:29 felix: decide from UCs if needed 10:21:26 chris: same as dc:source? 10:21:37 "Unique identifier of the work from which this resource was derived." 10:23:24 chris: xmp:derivedFrom is same kind of information but more specific than dc:source 10:25:32 felix: take both into account (xmp:derivedFrom related to dc:source) 10:26:48 xmpMM:history: no - comments? 10:27:02 frank: hook for user adaptation, should be included 10:28:40 frank: example: users generate media items, if system should provide support for creation, this could be derived from history of previously created item 10:28:58 frank: alternative is link to other kind of representation of this information 10:29:49 tobias: relevant in creation of e.g. 3D items (derivation of content, modifications, ...) 10:30:38 felix: reminds of conformance, there could be different levels of conformance (e.g. without history) 10:31:15 VictorRodriguez has joined #mediaann 10:31:22 felix: include xmp:history for some UCs 10:31:44 victor has joined #mediaann 10:31:47 ACTION: frank to check if xmp:history is applicable for the current use cases 10:31:47 Created ACTION-44 - Check if xmp:history is applicable for the current use cases [on Frank Nack - due 2008-12-16]. 10:32:43 felix: xmpMM:Ingredients to be discussed with fragments WG 10:33:31 frank: same applied to derivedFrom 10:34:01 felix: in derivedFrom rather link to media item, with ingredients rather to fragment 10:34:31 felix: xmpMM:InstanceID related to history 10:34:37 joakim: important to have 10:36:00 joakim: refers to content 10:37:06 xmpMM:ManagedFrom, Manager, ManageTo: no 10:37:34 xmp:MM:ManageUI: yes - comments? 10:38:13 jean-pierre: depends on type of application, professional or end user 10:38:36 jean-pierre: for content mgmt in professional information 10:39:16 chris: same as dc:description? 10:39:54 jean-pierre: no, description should not contain an identifier 10:41:29 xmpMM:OriginalDocumentID: yes 10:42:18 related to xmp:identifier? 10:43:26 felix: general issue with XMP properties: how do applications use them, which mappings could make sense? 10:44:05 jean-pierre: careful with trying to align with Adobe, focus should be what users need 10:44:49 felix: hope that Adobe joins WG 10:45:08 xmp:MMPantry, yes, related to 3 level 10:46:06 xmpMM:Versions: no - comments? 10:46:27 relation to xmp:history? 10:47:01 topic: xmp review - Basic Job Ticket schema 10:48:18 joakim: actors from creation tool manufacturers, end user applications and users - different interests, users should define requirements 10:48:44 felix: users are important, all actors are needed to get solution implemented 10:50:29 felix: approach: start with simple working implementation, extend in future versions 10:52:44 topic: xmp review - Paged-text schema 10:52:58 topic: xmp review - Dynamic Media schema 10:53:58 agreed on excluded properties 10:54:26 joakim: some included properties related to dc properties (e.g album) 10:55:24 joakim: make connection to dc, explain difference in the mapping 10:56:43 joakim: xmpDM:engineer - exclude 10:57:26 joakim: xmpDM:composer related to dc:creator 10:58:49 joakim: xmpDM:duration related to dc extent 10:59:23 victor has joined #mediaann 11:00:43 xmpDM:instrument, xmpDM:key, xmpDM:numberOfBeats -> dc:description 11:04:51 felix: look at how xmp fields are used in applications 11:05:09 joakim: sony ericsson is using xmp 11:05:43 ACTION: joakim to look at how sony ericsson uses xmp 11:05:43 Created ACTION-45 - Look at how sony ericsson uses xmp [on Joakim Söderberg - due 2008-12-16]. 11:07:28 topic: general approach of WG 11:07:50 frank: is ontology supporting api or to build applications on ontology 11:08:37 frank: use ontology for development of api, also design to be used by other people for app development 11:08:52 I think that it would be useful to have the ontology as an "interlingua" 11:09:01 felix: maybe do not specify formal ontology, but just prose descriptions 11:09:32 felix: avoid discussions rdf vs xml 11:09:54 felix: keep door open for people to provide formal specification 11:10:26 felix: conformance: which is the normative part of the spec? 11:11:29 felix: choices: take into account mappings, implement api, rdf non-normative OR rdf normative, but different levels of conformance, including some without rdf 11:12:18 felix: cf r05: providing the ontology as a set of terms 11:13:06 joakim: good to have reference implementation 11:13:33 joakim: also to demonstrate approach 11:13:47 felix: test suite required for everything that's normative 11:14:28 felix: tests and examples as soon as possible to make it easier for people to understand 11:16:33 felix: shows internationalisation tag set test suite as example 11:17:30 http://www.w3.org/International/its/tests/ 11:19:01 wonsuk: create table of all considered properties and mappings (if possible) to other standards 11:19:37 joakim: include in template 11:21:04 tobias: content description - more important than other media properties for end user 11:21:49 felix: more than covered by the xmp elements? 11:23:00 jean-pierre: internet tv: use search engine for content, work on ontology for av content 11:23:36 jean-pierre: users search eg by series, broadcast time 11:25:18 jean-pierre: many xml based metadata formats 11:25:31 jean-pierre: use semantic web to reach users 11:32:59 felix: gotuit - hq metadata for search etc 11:33:33 http://www.gotuit.com/about/pdf/CurrencyOfInternetVideo.pdf 11:37:45 joakim: manual annotation possible for professional content, but not for UGC 11:39:55 felix: 2 steps: ontology 1.0 (find content), ontology 2.0 for av content and services 11:40:27 ONTOLOGY 1.0 11:40:29 general mechanism to find content 11:40:31 different levels of description should you bring back to content. 11:40:32 Example: "I am looking for a program with title XYZ." 11:40:33 jean-pierre: current approach: 1 class, only properties 11:40:34 ONTOLOGY 1.x, 2.0: 11:40:35 ontology for audivisual content and services 11:40:37 different levels of description should you bring back to content, work with sw technologies 11:40:38 many specs in broadcasting world today in XML (TV Anytime, ...). How to provide interoperability? 11:43:09 rssagent, make logs public 11:48:33 -VeroniqueM 12:12:46 -conferenceRoom 12:12:47 IA_MAWG()3:00AM has ended 12:12:49 Attendees were VeroniqueM, +329331aaaa, conferenceRoom 12:41:10 Daniel has joined #mediaann 12:41:14 irc bot restart in 3 minutes to reset state; if this will be too much of an inconvenience, comment on #sysreq know 12:41:49 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/12/09-mediaann-minutes.html fsasaki 12:41:55 davy has joined #mediaann 12:42:25 topic: presentation from chris 12:42:41 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:42:41 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/12/09-mediaann-minutes.html Daniel 12:42:47 chris presents PeCMan Metadata, metadata for managed personal content 12:43:14 http://www.ibbt.be/en/project/pecman 12:45:03 metadata standards like mpeg-7, dig35, EXIF, ... are mapped to the metadata model 12:45:40 http://multimedialab.elis.ugent.be/users/gmartens/Ontologies/PecMan/ 12:46:32 mappings are OWL equivalence mappings 12:47:15 wonsuk has joined #mediaann 12:47:18 http://multimedialab.elis.ugent.be/users/gmartens/Ontologies/PecMan/V1.0/ 12:47:20 http://multimedialab.elis.ugent.be/users/gmartens/Ontologies/PecMan/V2.0/ 12:48:15 retrieval of metadata content based on queries 12:48:24 result can be e.g. a dc:description 12:49:36 a dc:description is mapped to ontology, so that metaaccess is possible 12:50:42 joakim has joined #mediaann 12:55:43 relation to XMP - most of properties are the same 12:55:48 vmalais has joined #mediaann 12:56:34 ontology structuring is different because of use case of interontology linking, e.g. linking to person ontologies 12:57:59 action: Felix to bother Eric so that he gives AI to Chris about the metadata model from IBBT 12:58:00 Created ACTION-46 - Bother Eric so that he gives AI to Chris about the metadata model from IBBT [on Felix Sasaki - due 2008-12-16]. 13:00:05 topic: presentation from Tobias 13:00:10 RICO ontology 13:05:11 use case is also metadata retrieval 13:05:14 topic: MXM review 13:05:23 http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/wiki/MXM 13:07:12 tobiasb has joined #mediaann 13:19:16 victor presents MXM and we are discussing API format and relation between API and ontology 13:19:49 idea is to have API specified not specific to e.g. java or c++, but have a general description which can be implemented in specific framework 13:20:15 that allows to be specific in object and return type specification (e.g. Java) or not (e.g. javascript) 13:21:00 s/that allows/that allows for indiviual implementations/ 13:22:37 topic: retrieving vs. setting of meta data 13:29:49 we are considering how or if to implement setting of metadata information. Question: how can this be implemented? What are protocol-specific requirements? What is necessary to implement setting information in addition to just say "setPropteryXYZ" instead of "getPropertyXYZ"? 13:29:59 issue of how to set data types 13:31:37 e.g. set a string or a date data type 13:41:22 issue how to get from information-lossy ontology to e.g. an adequate description in the target format 13:46:05 action: Werner and Frank to investiage existing approach for setting metadata on a "metamodel level" (or "ontology level") 13:46:05 Created ACTION-47 - And Frank to investiage existing approach for setting metadata on a \"metamodel level\" (or \"ontology level\") [on Werner Bailer - due 2008-12-16]. 14:27:21 victor has joined #mediaann 14:28:37 #waits 14:36:12 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/12/09-mediaann-minutes.html fsasaki 14:37:59 Daniel has joined #mediaann 14:39:56 fsasaki has joined #mediaann 14:41:33 logout 14:42:20 VeroniqueM has joined #mediaann 14:42:32 topic: joint meeting with fragments WG 14:42:56 see http://www.w3.org/2008/12/09-mediafrag-irc#T14-42-12 and after 14:43:01 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/12/09-mediaann-minutes.html fsasaki 14:43:09 tobiasb has joined #mediaann 14:43:27 go to #mediafrag 14:43:46 wonsuk has left #mediaann 14:46:18 spark3 has joined #mediaann 14:47:07 please switch this IRC channel to mediafrag for this joint session 15:22:26 fsasaki has joined #mediaann 15:54:45 action: Felix to send pointer to media fragments WG for review of uc&req doc, when it is ready 15:54:45 Created ACTION-48 - Send pointer to media fragments WG for review of uc&req doc, when it is ready [on Felix Sasaki - due 2008-12-16]. 16:02:34 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/12/09-mediaann-minutes.html fsasaki 16:38:54 fsasaki has joined #mediaann