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15:02:29 <MikeSmith> trackbot, start meeting
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15:02:49 <MikeSmith> peh
15:03:09 <Zakim> Team_(fo)15:00Z has now started
15:03:16 <Zakim> +Mike_Mahan
15:03:23 <ArtB> zakim, Mike_Mahan is ArtB
15:03:23 <Zakim> +ArtB; got it
15:03:25 <MikeSmith> Zakim, code?
15:03:25 <Zakim> the conference code is 26633 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), MikeSmith
15:03:32 <MikeSmith> timeless: ↑
15:03:34 <Zakim> +Josh_Soref
15:03:36 <Zakim> -ArtB
15:03:38 <Zakim> +ArtB
15:03:41 <ArtB> ArtB has changed the topic to: Widgets Passwd = 26633
15:04:13 <ArtB> Meeting: Widgets Voice Conference
15:04:18 <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike
15:04:18 <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
15:04:18 <ArtB> Date: 4 December 2009
15:04:20 <Zakim> +Mike
15:04:23 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:04:28 <ArtB> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2008OctDec/0360.html
15:04:38 <marcos> zakim, +[IPcaller] is me 
15:04:40 <Zakim> sorry, marcos, I do not recognize a party named '+[IPcaller]'
15:04:52 <ArtB> Scribe: Art
15:04:56 <ArtB> ScribeNick: ArtB
15:04:56 <marcos> Zakim: , IPcaller is I
15:05:00 <ArtB> Chair: Art
15:05:03 <timeless> zakim, [IPcaller] is marcos
15:05:03 <Zakim> +marcos; got it
15:05:10 <ArtB> Regrets: Claudio, David
15:05:19 <ArtB> Present: Art, Josh, Mike, Marcos
15:07:52 <ArtB> Topic: Agenda review
15:07:59 <ArtB> AB: any change requests?
15:08:21 <ArtB> AB: try to allocate time for Window Modes
15:08:38 <ArtB> AB: any other requests?
15:08:40 <ArtB> [None]
15:08:44 <ArtB> Topic: Annoucements
15:08:59 <ArtB> AB: only more VC this year - December 18
15:09:39 <Zakim> + +358.503.85aaaa
15:09:43 <ArtB> AB: that date coincides with the publication moratorium for the rest of the year
15:09:55 <ArtB> Present: +Jere
15:10:04 <timeless> zakim +358 is Jere
15:10:11 <timeless> zakim, +358 is Jere
15:10:11 <Zakim> +Jere; got it
15:10:37 <ArtB> Topic: Content-type sniffing 
15:10:54 <Zakim> + +47.23.69.aabb
15:10:58 <arve> Zakim: aabb is me
15:11:01 <arve> Zakim, aabb is me
15:11:01 <Zakim> +arve; got it
15:11:11 <ArtB> AB: see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2008OctDec/0340.html
15:11:20 <ArtB> Present: +Arve
15:11:46 <ArtB> AB: Marcos, quick update and issue coverage
15:12:13 <ArtB> MC: in the Widget package we don't have a header (like HTTP)
15:12:28 <ArtB> ... so we need to define a mapping of file extenstions to Media Type
15:13:23 <ArtB> ... I have now submitted a proposal to the list
15:13:37 <ArtB> ... It uses HTML5's content sniffing algorithm
15:14:00 <ArtB> Arve: I think Henri's proposal is basically OK
15:14:12 <ArtB> MC: I'm divided on it
15:14:38 <ArtB> ... and still investigating
15:14:47 <ArtB> Arve: two things make sense here
15:15:00 <ArtB> ... As Henri said, a simple solution is a good one
15:15:32 <ArtB> ... If rely on sniffing, can have some probs with older HTML docs
15:15:57 <ArtB> ... I'm concerned we can break some widgets e.g. layout
15:16:32 <ArtB> ... May also have probs with document.write()
15:17:27 <ArtB> ... If a document is labeled .txt and is actually HTML, a browser will treat it as HTML
15:17:59 <ArtB> MC: the proposal is to check file extension first and if that fails, revert to content sniffing
15:18:16 <ArtB> AB: you mean what is in the ED now?
15:18:19 <ArtB> ... http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/widgets/#files
15:18:21 <ArtB> MC: yes
15:18:33 <ArtB> Arve: need to look at what Hixie wrote about this earlier
15:18:42 <ArtB> ... I don't think we should do content sniffing
15:19:17 <ArtB> AB: we have at least member of the WG that has reservations re content sniffing.
15:19:17 <Zakim> + +44.771.751.aacc
15:19:23 <ArtB> ... Any other feedback
15:19:48 <arve> <ArtB> ... If a document is labeled .txt and is actually HTML, a browser will treat it as HTML
15:19:50 <ArtB> AB: Mike, anything you want to mention on this issue?
15:19:54 <arve> that is not what I said
15:20:02 <arve> browsers will not try to sniff it
15:20:07 <ArtB> MS: in HTML5 we aren't really talking about file sniffing
15:21:03 <ArtB> AB: Arve, let's correct what I minuted re sniffing
15:21:34 <ArtB> Arve: browser will treat it as a plain text file
15:22:06 <MikeSmith> s/talking about file sniffing/covering sniffing by file extension/
15:22:13 <ArtB> Present+ Mark
15:22:21 <timeless> zakim: +44 is Mark
15:22:30 <timeless> zakim, +44 is Mark
15:22:30 <Zakim> +Mark; got it
15:22:45 <ArtB> Arve: I think the common sense solution is to specify what browsers are actually doing today
15:22:57 <ArtB> ... we don't want to specify something that isn't being done today
15:23:51 <ArtB> ... If we need a way to override that, then we could make an author mapping mechanism
15:24:05 <marcos> MC: for instance, .php text/html 
15:24:07 <ArtB> s/could make/could define/
15:24:40 <ArtB> AB: Marcos, what's the next step
15:24:53 <ArtB> MC: do we want to define the overide format for v1?
15:24:57 <ArtB> Arve: I think not
15:25:11 <ArtB> ... this hasn't been a problem for Opera widgets
15:25:13 <mpriestl> mpriestl has joined #wam
15:26:02 <ArtB> AB: sounds like we have a resolution: we will not define an override format/mechanism for v1
15:26:15 <ArtB> AB: any objections?
15:26:20 <ArtB> [None]
15:26:33 <ArtB> RESOLUTION: we will not define an override format/mechanism for v1
15:26:59 <ArtB> AB: what additional guidance do you need on this topic, Marcos?
15:27:17 <ArtB> MC: I just need to document this
15:27:31 <ArtB> ... Wondering if there are any concerns about the requirement I proposed
15:27:33 <marcos> http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/widgets-reqs/#r12.-
15:28:10 <ArtB> AB: I don't have any major issues with this
15:28:46 <ArtB> Arve: I don't understand the need for this requirement
15:29:18 <ArtB> MC: I think we need this to provide guidance on how UAs process the files
15:29:37 <ArtB> ... I think we will have some interop issues if we don't specify this
15:30:10 <ArtB> AB: do you see this req as harmful, Arve?
15:30:27 <ArtB> MC: I don't object to it; I just don't see a need for it
15:30:39 <ArtB> s/MC: I don't/Arve: I don't/
15:30:52 <ArtB> ... I don't think it will change the behaviour of UAs
15:31:54 <ArtB> AB: when I read that section, I don't see prescriptive text 
15:32:07 <ArtB> MC: yes, I need to work on it; plan to do so today
15:33:31 <ArtB> Topic: ACTION-231 Work with Marcos to submit a proposal to address the  feature fallback problem
15:33:48 <ArtB> AB: where do we stand on this issue?
15:34:16 <ArtB> ... http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/231
15:34:33 <ArtB> MC: this is related to the topics for next week's security workshop
15:34:45 <ArtB> ... I am expecting related discussions next week
15:34:56 <ArtB> ... At the moment, I think the text in the spec is OK
15:35:11 <ArtB> ... But want to revisit this based on the Workshop outcomes
15:35:20 <ArtB> Arve: I agree with that reasoning
15:35:53 <ArtB> MC: I'd like to close
15:36:01 <ArtB> Arve: let's wait until next VC
15:36:03 <ArtB> MC: OK
15:36:48 <ArtB> Topic: URI Attribute Names
15:37:19 <ArtB> AB: proposal is http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2008OctDec/0398.html
15:37:36 <ArtB> AB: is this blocking you Marcos?
15:37:37 <ArtB> MC: no
15:37:48 <ArtB> ... there is some inconsistency we need to fix
15:39:03 <ArtB> AB: my inclination is without strong opposition to let the Editor make a proposal 
15:39:07 <ArtB> ... and then codify it
15:39:26 <ArtB> AB: any comments on the proposal
15:39:27 <marcos> MC: do we really need <author img="">? 
15:39:58 <ArtB> AB: without a compelling use case, I favor removing syntax
15:40:21 <ArtB> AB: do you have enough feedback, Marcos?
15:40:23 <ArtB> MC: yes
15:40:37 <ArtB> ... we may want to expand on this in V2 but I will remove it now
15:40:48 <ArtB> AB: any problems or issues with that?
15:40:50 <ArtB> [None]
15:40:57 <ArtB> Topic: Window Mode
15:41:17 <ArtB> AB: Marcos proposal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2008OctDec/0403.html
15:41:32 <ArtB> AB: this has been an open issue for a while
15:41:43 <ArtB> ... we discussed it in Mandelieu for example
15:41:49 <ArtB> Arve: it is a hard prob
15:42:00 <ArtB> ... Opera has a notion of window modes
15:42:11 <ArtB> ... Perhaps it should be deferred to v2
15:42:25 <ArtB> ... It needs to be in some spec but perhaps not the P&C spec
15:42:46 <ArtB> AB: what would we do, syntactially then, for the author?
15:43:15 <marcos> MC: syntactically, <widget mode="someMode"> 
15:43:40 <ArtB> MC: in the spec we list the mode values but not the behavior
15:43:49 <ArtB> Arve: I don't see the need for a default
15:44:04 <ArtB> ... letting the impl decide can lead to some probs
15:44:25 <ArtB> ... e.g. a mobile impl may default one way and desktop default a different way
15:45:18 <ArtB> ... could specify the first four opts and then let the impl decide the default
15:45:37 <ArtB> ... I could reply with some info about our impl
15:45:43 <ArtB> MC: yes, please do
15:46:23 <ArtB> JS: with the N97, there are things on the home screen that looks like widgets
15:46:37 <ArtB> AB: I don't know if S60 widgets has support for this semantics
15:47:56 <ArtB> [ Discussion about sizes for widgets ]
15:49:07 <ArtB> MC: I can check with Orange to see what they have
15:49:22 <ArtB> JK: I will check S60 and report back if I find anything useful
15:49:44 <ArtB> MP: if I find some useful info I will submit it
15:50:16 <ArtB> ... what do you expect to specify in the P&C spec, Marcos?
15:50:27 <ArtB> MC: we need some more information than what I included in my e-mail
15:51:49 <ArtB> AB: what do you plan to do in the next few day?
15:52:03 <ArtB> MC: I will flesh out the definitions of these modes and refine their names
15:52:39 <ArtB> Topic: P&C Last Call 
15:53:00 <ArtB> AB: our plan for several months now is to publish a LCWD of P&C spec by the end of 2008
15:53:34 <arve> ArtB: sorry about interrupting, but I have a hard deadline for now, as I have a train to catch
15:53:43 <ArtB> AB: I want to know what people think here
15:53:54 <ArtB> MC: I do indeed want to publish the LC this year
15:54:39 <arve> I support as-is with the changes outcome of this call
15:54:39 <Zakim> -arve
15:54:42 <ArtB> Arve: yes, I do support publishing a LC if it reflects today's discussion
15:55:40 <ArtB> MP: will there be a review period from the 11th to 17th?
15:55:45 <ArtB> AB: yes
15:56:12 <ArtB> MP: If something on the feature element comes out of the Security WS, I'd like an opportunity to reflect that in the LC doc
15:56:18 <ArtB> AB: understood
15:56:26 <ArtB> MP: given this, I support LC
15:56:50 <ArtB> JK: no specific opinion; need to abstain but generally positive
15:57:03 <ArtB> ... need to look at the I18N part
15:57:50 <ArtB> JS: I need to look at it 
15:58:18 <ArtB> MC: if Jere can look at the I18N stuff, that would be good
15:58:39 <ArtB> ... there is one error I need to fix but otherwise it is stable
15:59:51 <ArtB> MC: I would appreciate it if we could get a complete review of the spec prior to going to LC
16:00:01 <ArtB> JS: ping me on Monday or Tues and I'll try to do it
16:00:41 <ArtB> AB: plan is to begin a CfC on Dec 11, end it on Dec 17 and submit pub request on Dec 18
16:01:58 <ArtB> Topic: Widget Testing
16:02:18 <ArtB> AB: does anyone object proposed directory for the test suite?
16:02:37 <ArtB> AB: Marcos, have you looked at the test?
16:02:47 <ArtB> MC: yes, some; need to do more research
16:02:58 <ArtB> ... want to make sure Kai is interpreting the spec correctly
16:03:08 <Zakim> -Mike
16:03:35 <ArtB> AB: I'll respond to Dom that we prefer using the widgets CVS directory as opposed
16:03:40 <ArtB> AB: any objections?
16:03:43 <ArtB> [None]
16:04:02 <ArtB> Topic: Next f2f Meeting
16:04:23 <ArtB> AB: start thinking about the end of Feb
16:05:22 <ArtB> AB: any other topics?
16:05:31 <ArtB> AB: Meeting Adjourned
16:05:41 <Zakim> -Mark
16:05:42 <Zakim> -Jere
16:05:42 <Zakim> -Josh_Soref
16:05:43 <Zakim> -ArtB
16:05:43 <Zakim> Team_(fo)15:00Z has ended
16:05:44 <Zakim> Attendees were ArtB, Josh_Soref, Mike, marcos, +358.503.85aaaa, Jere, +47.23.69.aabb, arve, +44.771.751.aacc, Mark
16:05:49 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make log Public
16:06:20 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:06:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/12/04-wam-minutes.html ArtB
16:07:32 <ArtB> Present: Art, Arve, Marcos, Jere, Josh, Mark, Mike
16:07:44 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:07:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/12/04-wam-minutes.html ArtB
16:09:20 <ArtB> Regrets+ Thomas
16:09:30 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:09:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/12/04-wam-minutes.html ArtB
16:10:21 <ArtB> Regrets: David, Claudio, Thomas
16:10:26 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:10:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/12/04-wam-minutes.html ArtB
16:14:41 <ArtB> rrsagent, bye
16:14:41 <RRSAgent> I see no action items