IRC log of rdfa on 2008-12-04

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:52:50 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
15:52:50 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/12/04-rdfa-irc
15:52:54 [Ralph]
Meeting: RDF-in-XHTML Task Force
15:53:09 [Ralph]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Dec/0005.html
15:54:17 [Ralph]
-> http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html previous 2008-11-20
15:54:22 [Ralph]
rrsagent, please make record public
16:00:11 [Zakim]
SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started
16:00:18 [Zakim]
+Ralph
16:00:54 [Ralph]
Regrets: Michael
16:01:14 [Zakim]
+ShaneM
16:02:35 [Zakim]
+??P33
16:02:43 [msporny]
zakim, I am ??P33
16:02:44 [Zakim]
+msporny; got it
16:03:05 [benadida]
benadida has joined #rdfa
16:03:26 [Zakim]
+Ben_Adida
16:03:55 [Ralph]
Chair: Ben
16:06:12 [benadida]
zakim, pick a victim
16:06:12 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Ralph
16:07:13 [Ralph]
Manu: what happens after end of December? Keep meeting?
16:09:29 [Ralph]
Ralph: SWD WG expects to resolve to ask for SKOS CR transition by 16 December and then I will ask for a 4-month extension to SWD WG charter
16:10:00 [Ralph]
... this would allow us to formally continue to talk about RDFa futures
16:11:57 [Ralph]
... on a personal level, I think it would be a mistake to change RDFa until there is clear support for a proposed change within the HTML WG
16:12:10 [Ralph]
Manu: it would be nice to be able to say "here is what we think should be done
16:12:13 [Ralph]
"
16:12:26 [Ralph]
... especially for the microformats community
16:13:08 [Ralph]
... we'd be in a stronger position w.r.t. conversations with microformats if we said we think @prefix and external profiles are a good direction
16:13:35 [Ralph]
Ben: what's the goal of such a statement? would you hope that people start to use RDFa with @prefix?
16:13:40 [Ralph]
Manu: yes, I think the community is stuck
16:13:51 [Ralph]
... this has to do with vocabulary development
16:14:05 [Ralph]
... the community is currently spending a lot of time on issues that RDFa already solves
16:15:17 [Ralph]
Ben: I think it works better to have a proposal with community support to present to W3C rather than to expect W3C to pull the community
16:15:54 [Ralph]
Shane: we do talk about HTML5 a lot but it doesn't exist yet -- it's only a Working Group
16:16:34 [Ralph]
Shane: none of these deployed features have anything to do with microformats
16:17:29 [Ralph]
Ben: call it whatever; we know there is desire to deploy RDFa in HTML without @xmlns
16:17:53 [Ralph]
... in the end, we'll have the same proposal for HTML
16:18:37 [Ralph]
... so the thing we ought to do is show how to deploy RDFa in HTML4 now, get it to validate, etc.
16:18:46 [Ralph]
Manu: yep
16:31:14 [ShaneM]
topics - validation in non-xml documents, definition of non-prefixed items, changing of default prefix on the fly
16:32:23 [ShaneM]
@prefix SOLVES the problem of validating in non-xml documents. it is INDEPENDENT of the other two topics IMHO
16:34:07 [ShaneM]
the ability to extend the collection of non-prefixed terms is interesting, but NOT REQUIRED.
16:35:03 [ShaneM]
changing the default prefix on the fly is a CHANGE to RDFa overall, independent of whether a document is XML or not, and whether it uses @prefix or not
16:35:52 [ShaneM]
hmm - that might not be true. I think you MUST use @prefix if you want to change the default CURIE prefix.
16:36:28 [Ralph]
-> http://www.w3.org/2008/12/02-swd-minutes.html#item06 Tuesday SWD WG telecon discussion of charter extension
16:37:41 [Ralph]
zakim, take up item 1
16:37:41 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Action Items" taken up [from Ralph]
16:37:55 [Ralph]
[PENDING] ACTION: Mark to send Ben ubiquity related wizard stuff [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
16:38:15 [Ralph]
[DONE] ACTION: Shane to update the errata document to reflect that step 6 has extra text about a new subject - also respond to Johan who sent private mail, copying the task force. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
16:38:25 [Ralph]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to add public-rdfa examples to wiki and think of slightly improved top-level organization [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
16:38:32 [Ralph]
Ben: I've done part of this, still need to update wiki
16:38:36 [Ralph]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa" with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
16:38:44 [Ralph]
Ben: I've made a bit of progress on this
16:38:54 [Ralph]
... reactions to the new wiki layout?
16:39:04 [Ralph]
Manu: new layout is better than the old
16:39:11 [Ralph]
[PENDING] ACTION: Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once the NS URI is set up. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
16:41:40 [Ralph]
[PENDING] ACTION: Manu talk with Jamie McCarthy about an AskSlashdot piece [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action04]
16:41:53 [Ralph]
Manu: I've been hoping to implement it first :)
16:42:01 [Ralph]
[PENDING] ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases for Ivan. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
16:42:06 [msporny]
http://rdfa.digitalbazaar.com/bitmunk-case-study/
16:42:12 [Ralph]
Manu: I wrote a draft but Ivan wants a rewrite
16:42:24 [Ralph]
... draft explains what our company is doing
16:42:46 [Ralph]
... Ivan would like this draft posted as a longer story and a shorter version for the use case wiki
16:43:03 [Ralph]
[PENDING] ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
16:43:35 [Ralph]
Manu: basically modifying their templates but it's a bit more involved
16:43:39 [Ralph]
... adding SIOC
16:43:52 [Ralph]
Ben: how about roping Steve Williams from digg into this?
16:44:14 [Ralph]
... perhaps just tell him what you're thinking
16:44:31 [Ralph]
... digg is also thinking about SIOC
16:46:15 [Ralph]
... so showing them your vocabulary ideas could be a useful trigger
16:46:19 [Ralph]
[PENDING] ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
16:46:24 [Ralph]
[PENDING] ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
16:47:40 [Ralph]
[PENDING] ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
16:47:44 [Ralph]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
16:47:57 [Ralph]
zakim, take up item 3
16:47:57 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "@prefix" taken up [from Ralph]
16:48:11 [Ralph]
Ben: Mark has a draft blog post on @prefix
16:48:25 [Ralph]
Shane: there are several topics and they're independent
16:48:35 [Ralph]
... we could come up with credible solutions on pieces
16:48:46 [Ralph]
... 1. defining prefix mappings in non-XML grammars
16:49:07 [Ralph]
... we've proposed @prefix and a syntax; everyone seems to be onboard, with some semantic extensions
16:50:06 [Ralph]
Ralph: do the inheritance rules for @prefix exactly match those for @xmlns?
16:50:19 [Ralph]
Shane: I was looking at default namespaces as they relate to CURIEs
16:50:23 [Ralph]
... that's a separate topic
16:50:46 [Ralph]
Ben: there seemed to be some different between HEAD and BODY rules
16:50:57 [Ralph]
... did I read too much into the discussion?
16:51:09 [Ralph]
... given that HTML allows metadata in HEAD ...
16:51:33 [Ralph]
Shane: at that time we were talking about using <link @rel='prefix' ...> and that's a separable issue
16:51:49 [Ralph]
Ben: so current @prefix thinking is that inheritance works exactly like @xmlns?
16:51:52 [Ralph]
Shane: yes
16:52:42 [Ralph]
Ben: I think we could agree on a syntax lik @prefix='a=URI1 b=URI2 ...'
16:52:55 [Ralph]
Manu: there was a notion that @prefix might hold more than just what is in this document
16:52:59 [Ralph]
s/lik /like /
16:53:23 [Ralph]
... there was also a question of what happens in @prefix='URI'
16:53:35 [Ralph]
... i.e. default prefixes, or a vocabulary that could be pulled-in to define other prefixes
16:53:45 [Ralph]
Ben: pulling in another vocabulary wouldn't conflict with this syntax
16:53:55 [ShaneM]
http://rdfa.info/wiki/RDFainHTML4#Prefix_Mappings
16:54:16 [Ralph]
Shane: the wiki page supports these sorts of extensions
16:54:27 [Ralph]
... could debate whether it makes sense to redefine the default prefix
16:54:56 [Ralph]
Ben: I agree the three items under 'Future Handling' can be considered separately
16:55:23 [Ralph]
... Mark was thinking about something that would pull in a local vocabulary for one section of a document
16:55:52 [Ralph]
Shane: want to separate the topics; validating v. changing the extensibility model of RDFa
16:56:35 [Ralph]
Ben: I believe there is consensus on the first bullet; value is 'prefix=URI'
16:57:02 [Ralph]
... I don't see consensus on the second bullet @prefix='=URI'
16:57:24 [Ralph]
Manu: microformats added bullets 2 and 3 because we didn't feel @profile was the place to extend RDFa functionality
16:57:39 [Ralph]
... this is more in the 3rd bullet; extensibility via @prefix or via @profile
16:57:53 [Ralph]
... the issue of setting the default namespace is in both worlds
16:58:28 [Ralph]
s/value is 'prefix/@prefix='prefix
16:58:56 [Ralph]
Ben: if we want to make it easy to markup common formats, such as a page on a social network, will we want to be able to pull terms from multiple vocabularies?
16:59:28 [Ralph]
... if so, the way to simplify this is not by defining lots of prefixes but to include pre-packages bundles of terms
16:59:40 [Ralph]
Manu: so maybe the 2nd bullet is unnecessary
16:59:47 [Ralph]
Ben: yes, 2nd could be subsumed in 3rd
17:00:08 [Ralph]
... but 2nd is also a trivial generalization of 1st bullet
17:00:34 [Ralph]
... however, this also makes @prefix do more than @xmlns [which we might not want]
17:00:50 [Ralph]
... I like simplifying the social network bundle of terms case
17:01:08 [Ralph]
Manu: I can't think of a strong use case for bullet 2 given that we implement 1 and 3
17:01:33 [Ralph]
Ben: right, could have a bundle that only uses 1 vocabulary, so little marginal value to bullet 2
17:01:54 [Ralph]
Manu: bullet 2 came before we'd thought out bullet 3 completely
17:02:16 [Ralph]
Shane: I don't agree with Mark's approach; I think it's overly simplistic
17:02:42 [Ralph]
... it doesn't takes advantage of the essential RDF-ness of the environment
17:03:04 [Ralph]
... and it doesn't really address the microformat case in a way that makes it easy to extend XMDT
17:03:06 [ShaneM]
http://rdfa.info/wiki/RDFa_Vocabularies#Discovering_new_unprefixed_CURIEs
17:03:25 [Ralph]
... Manu wrote a separate proposal ^^
17:03:40 [Ralph]
... making it easy to markup microformat definitions in a way that defines vocabulary terms
17:03:49 [Ralph]
... whatever we do here should be grounded in RDF
17:03:55 [Ralph]
Ralph: yay Shane!
17:04:23 [Ralph]
Shane: unless he's changed his approach, Mark was defining a way to map prefixes to URIs
17:04:39 [Ralph]
... this is using xmlns to define macros, rather than using RDF to define vocabularies
17:05:03 [Ralph]
... vocabulary terms need to be grounded in URIs to allow a follow-your-nose processing engine to follow the URIs
17:05:20 [Ralph]
Ben: the intermediate document could be RDF
17:05:26 [Ralph]
Shane: but Mark hasn't proposed this
17:05:59 [Ralph]
Manu: Mark was just showing a technically nifty way to use @prefix to expand terms without having to consult an external document
17:06:22 [Ralph]
... but we recognize it would also be helpful to be able to provide an external RDF document that defines prefixes
17:06:39 [Ralph]
... I think Mark was opposed to having to load these external documents
17:07:02 [Ralph]
Shane: I understand why it might be unattractive to _have_ to load an external document to understand unprefixed CURIEs
17:07:18 [Ralph]
... RDF interpretation requires dereferencing prefix mappings, which I maintain has to be done anyway
17:07:38 [Ralph]
Ben: Mark was talking about bundles of vocabularies which seems to me to require external documents
17:08:03 [Ralph]
Shane: Mark had a syntax for doing this inline in the document, but I don't know why you'd want to bundle this into every document
17:08:39 [Ralph]
... Mark did write that this _can_ be embedded locally if there was a consistent syntax
17:08:46 [Ralph]
Ben: I see little value in such embedding
17:09:01 [Ralph]
Shane: our debate should be about how to derive the meaning, not about the syntax
17:09:28 [Ralph]
Ben: so I think we have consensus about @prefix='p1=u1 p2=u2 ...'
17:09:50 [Ralph]
... and that @prefix='=u1' seems not to have value
17:10:17 [Ralph]
... and @prefix='u1' may have value and should be further investigated
17:10:31 [Zakim]
-ShaneM
17:10:34 [Zakim]
-msporny
17:10:50 [Ralph]
[adjourned]
17:12:49 [ShaneM]
ShaneM has left #rdfa
17:17:25 [Zakim]
-Ralph
17:17:27 [Zakim]
-Ben_Adida
17:17:27 [Zakim]
SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended
17:17:28 [Zakim]
Attendees were Ralph, ShaneM, msporny, Ben_Adida
17:17:31 [Ralph]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
17:17:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/12/04-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph
17:18:07 [Ralph]
rrsagent, bye
17:18:07 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items