15:52:50 RRSAgent has joined #rdfa 15:52:50 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/12/04-rdfa-irc 15:52:54 Meeting: RDF-in-XHTML Task Force 15:53:09 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Dec/0005.html 15:54:17 -> http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html previous 2008-11-20 15:54:22 rrsagent, please make record public 16:00:11 SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started 16:00:18 +Ralph 16:00:54 Regrets: Michael 16:01:14 +ShaneM 16:02:35 +??P33 16:02:43 zakim, I am ??P33 16:02:44 +msporny; got it 16:03:05 benadida has joined #rdfa 16:03:26 +Ben_Adida 16:03:55 Chair: Ben 16:06:12 zakim, pick a victim 16:06:12 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Ralph 16:07:13 Manu: what happens after end of December? Keep meeting? 16:09:29 Ralph: SWD WG expects to resolve to ask for SKOS CR transition by 16 December and then I will ask for a 4-month extension to SWD WG charter 16:10:00 ... this would allow us to formally continue to talk about RDFa futures 16:11:57 ... on a personal level, I think it would be a mistake to change RDFa until there is clear support for a proposed change within the HTML WG 16:12:10 Manu: it would be nice to be able to say "here is what we think should be done 16:12:13 " 16:12:26 ... especially for the microformats community 16:13:08 ... we'd be in a stronger position w.r.t. conversations with microformats if we said we think @prefix and external profiles are a good direction 16:13:35 Ben: what's the goal of such a statement? would you hope that people start to use RDFa with @prefix? 16:13:40 Manu: yes, I think the community is stuck 16:13:51 ... this has to do with vocabulary development 16:14:05 ... the community is currently spending a lot of time on issues that RDFa already solves 16:15:17 Ben: I think it works better to have a proposal with community support to present to W3C rather than to expect W3C to pull the community 16:15:54 Shane: we do talk about HTML5 a lot but it doesn't exist yet -- it's only a Working Group 16:16:05 Ben: there are features of HTML5 that browsers do currently deploy 16:16:34 Shane: none of these deployed features have anything to do with microformats 16:17:29 Ben: call it whatever; we know there is desire to deploy RDFa in HTML without @xmlns 16:17:53 ... in the end, we'll have the same proposal for HTML 16:18:37 ... so the thing we ought to do is show how to deploy RDFa in HTML4 now, get it to validate, etc. 16:18:46 Manu: yep 16:31:14 topics - validation in non-xml documents, definition of non-prefixed items, changing of default prefix on the fly 16:32:23 @prefix SOLVES the problem of validating in non-xml documents. it is INDEPENDENT of the other two topics IMHO 16:34:07 the ability to extend the collection of non-prefixed terms is interesting, but NOT REQUIRED. 16:35:03 changing the default prefix on the fly is a CHANGE to RDFa overall, independent of whether a document is XML or not, and whether it uses @prefix or not 16:35:52 hmm - that might not be true. I think you MUST use @prefix if you want to change the default CURIE prefix. 16:36:28 -> http://www.w3.org/2008/12/02-swd-minutes.html#item06 Tuesday SWD WG telecon discussion of charter extension 16:37:41 zakim, take up item 1 16:37:41 agendum 1. "Action Items" taken up [from Ralph] 16:37:55 [PENDING] ACTION: Mark to send Ben ubiquity related wizard stuff [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11] 16:38:15 [DONE] ACTION: Shane to update the errata document to reflect that step 6 has extra text about a new subject - also respond to Johan who sent private mail, copying the task force. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action15] 16:38:25 [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to add public-rdfa examples to wiki and think of slightly improved top-level organization [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action11] 16:38:32 Ben: I've done part of this, still need to update wiki 16:38:36 [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa" with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] 16:38:44 Ben: I've made a bit of progress on this 16:38:54 ... reactions to the new wiki layout? 16:39:04 Manu: new layout is better than the old 16:39:11 [PENDING] ACTION: Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once the NS URI is set up. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03] 16:41:40 [PENDING] ACTION: Manu talk with Jamie McCarthy about an AskSlashdot piece [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action04] 16:41:53 Manu: I've been hoping to implement it first :) 16:42:01 [PENDING] ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases for Ivan. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09] 16:42:06 http://rdfa.digitalbazaar.com/bitmunk-case-study/ 16:42:12 Manu: I wrote a draft but Ivan wants a rewrite 16:42:24 ... draft explains what our company is doing 16:42:46 ... Ivan would like this draft posted as a longer story and a shorter version for the use case wiki 16:43:03 [PENDING] ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action11] 16:43:35 Manu: basically modifying their templates but it's a bit more involved 16:43:39 ... adding SIOC 16:43:52 Ben: how about roping Steve Williams from digg into this? 16:44:14 ... perhaps just tell him what you're thinking 16:44:31 ... digg is also thinking about SIOC 16:46:15 ... so showing them your vocabulary ideas could be a useful trigger 16:46:19 [PENDING] ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] 16:46:24 [PENDING] ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13] 16:47:40 [PENDING] ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14] 16:47:44 [PENDING] ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15] 16:47:57 zakim, take up item 3 16:47:57 agendum 3. "@prefix" taken up [from Ralph] 16:48:11 Ben: Mark has a draft blog post on @prefix 16:48:25 Shane: there are several topics and they're independent 16:48:35 ... we could come up with credible solutions on pieces 16:48:46 ... 1. defining prefix mappings in non-XML grammars 16:49:07 ... we've proposed @prefix and a syntax; everyone seems to be onboard, with some semantic extensions 16:50:06 Ralph: do the inheritance rules for @prefix exactly match those for @xmlns? 16:50:19 Shane: I was looking at default namespaces as they relate to CURIEs 16:50:23 ... that's a separate topic 16:50:46 Ben: there seemed to be some different between HEAD and BODY rules 16:50:57 ... did I read too much into the discussion? 16:51:09 ... given that HTML allows metadata in HEAD ... 16:51:33 Shane: at that time we were talking about using and that's a separable issue 16:51:49 Ben: so current @prefix thinking is that inheritance works exactly like @xmlns? 16:51:52 Shane: yes 16:52:42 Ben: I think we could agree on a syntax lik @prefix='a=URI1 b=URI2 ...' 16:52:55 Manu: there was a notion that @prefix might hold more than just what is in this document 16:52:59 s/lik /like / 16:53:23 ... there was also a question of what happens in @prefix='URI' 16:53:35 ... i.e. default prefixes, or a vocabulary that could be pulled-in to define other prefixes 16:53:45 Ben: pulling in another vocabulary wouldn't conflict with this syntax 16:53:55 http://rdfa.info/wiki/RDFainHTML4#Prefix_Mappings 16:54:16 Shane: the wiki page supports these sorts of extensions 16:54:27 ... could debate whether it makes sense to redefine the default prefix 16:54:56 Ben: I agree the three items under 'Future Handling' can be considered separately 16:55:23 ... Mark was thinking about something that would pull in a local vocabulary for one section of a document 16:55:52 Shane: want to separate the topics; validating v. changing the extensibility model of RDFa 16:56:35 Ben: I believe there is consensus on the first bullet; value is 'prefix=URI' 16:57:02 ... I don't see consensus on the second bullet @prefix='=URI' 16:57:24 Manu: microformats added bullets 2 and 3 because we didn't feel @profile was the place to extend RDFa functionality 16:57:39 ... this is more in the 3rd bullet; extensibility via @prefix or via @profile 16:57:53 ... the issue of setting the default namespace is in both worlds 16:58:28 s/value is 'prefix/@prefix='prefix 16:58:56 Ben: if we want to make it easy to markup common formats, such as a page on a social network, will we want to be able to pull terms from multiple vocabularies? 16:59:28 ... if so, the way to simplify this is not by defining lots of prefixes but to include pre-packages bundles of terms 16:59:40 Manu: so maybe the 2nd bullet is unnecessary 16:59:47 Ben: yes, 2nd could be subsumed in 3rd 17:00:08 ... but 2nd is also a trivial generalization of 1st bullet 17:00:34 ... however, this also makes @prefix do more than @xmlns [which we might not want] 17:00:50 ... I like simplifying the social network bundle of terms case 17:01:08 Manu: I can't think of a strong use case for bullet 2 given that we implement 1 and 3 17:01:33 Ben: right, could have a bundle that only uses 1 vocabulary, so little marginal value to bullet 2 17:01:54 Manu: bullet 2 came before we'd thought out bullet 3 completely 17:02:16 Shane: I don't agree with Mark's approach; I think it's overly simplistic 17:02:42 ... it doesn't takes advantage of the essential RDF-ness of the environment 17:03:04 ... and it doesn't really address the microformat case in a way that makes it easy to extend XMDT 17:03:06 http://rdfa.info/wiki/RDFa_Vocabularies#Discovering_new_unprefixed_CURIEs 17:03:25 ... Manu wrote a separate proposal ^^ 17:03:40 ... making it easy to markup microformat definitions in a way that defines vocabulary terms 17:03:49 ... whatever we do here should be grounded in RDF 17:03:55 Ralph: yay Shane! 17:04:23 Shane: unless he's changed his approach, Mark was defining a way to map prefixes to URIs 17:04:39 ... this is using xmlns to define macros, rather than using RDF to define vocabularies 17:05:03 ... vocabulary terms need to be grounded in URIs to allow a follow-your-nose processing engine to follow the URIs 17:05:20 Ben: the intermediate document could be RDF 17:05:26 Shane: but Mark hasn't proposed this 17:05:59 Manu: Mark was just showing a technically nifty way to use @prefix to expand terms without having to consult an external document 17:06:22 ... but we recognize it would also be helpful to be able to provide an external RDF document that defines prefixes 17:06:39 ... I think Mark was opposed to having to load these external documents 17:07:02 Shane: I understand why it might be unattractive to _have_ to load an external document to understand unprefixed CURIEs 17:07:18 ... RDF interpretation requires dereferencing prefix mappings, which I maintain has to be done anyway 17:07:38 Ben: Mark was talking about bundles of vocabularies which seems to me to require external documents 17:08:03 Shane: Mark had a syntax for doing this inline in the document, but I don't know why you'd want to bundle this into every document 17:08:39 ... Mark did write that this _can_ be embedded locally if there was a consistent syntax 17:08:46 Ben: I see little value in such embedding 17:09:01 Shane: our debate should be about how to derive the meaning, not about the syntax 17:09:28 Ben: so I think we have consensus about @prefix='p1=u1 p2=u2 ...' 17:09:50 ... and that @prefix='=u1' seems not to have value 17:10:17 ... and @prefix='u1' may have value and should be further investigated 17:10:31 -ShaneM 17:10:34 -msporny 17:10:50 [adjourned] 17:12:49 ShaneM has left #rdfa 17:17:25 -Ralph 17:17:27 -Ben_Adida 17:17:27 SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended 17:17:28 Attendees were Ralph, ShaneM, msporny, Ben_Adida 17:17:31 rrsagent, please draft minutes 17:17:31 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/12/04-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph 17:18:07 rrsagent, bye 17:18:07 I see no action items