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00:45:27 <pimpbot> planet: How to evaluate Web Applications security designs? <11http://www.w3.org/QA/2008/12/web_applications_security_requ.html>
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04:33:06 <MikeSmith> @planet
04:33:07 <pimpbot> MikeSmith: How to evaluate Web Applications security designs? <11http://www.w3.org/QA/2008/12/web_applications_security_requ.html> 4** HTML5 Parsing in Gecko: A Build <11http://hsivonen.iki.fi/html5-gecko-build/> 4** HTML5 in Gecko <11http://intertwingly.net/blog/2008/12/03/HTML5-in-Gecko> 4** WebKit's week - #6 <11http://hanblog.info/blog/post/2008/11/28/WebKit-s-week-6> 4** Dev.Opera: Creating pseudo (16 more messages)
04:33:37 <MikeSmith> .t EST
04:33:37 <phenny> Wed, 03 Dec 2008 23:33:37 EST
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05:19:52 <MikeSmith> .t CET
05:19:54 <phenny> Thu, 04 Dec 2008 06:19:54 CET
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05:30:56 <MikeSmith> heycam: what's the timezone abbreviation for where you are?
05:37:10 <heycam> it's EST
05:37:16 <heycam> which unfortunately clashes with US EST :)
05:37:24 <heycam> sometimes people use AEST
05:38:29 <heycam> "Australia/Melbourne" works, too
05:38:36 <heycam> with e.g.:  $ TZ=Australia/Melbourne date
05:38:44 <heycam> (which is how i usually determine the current time somewhere)
05:39:19 <heycam> tho actually it's DST here.... so make that EDT or AEDT
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05:48:58 <MikeSmith> .t AEST
05:48:58 <phenny> Thu, 04 Dec 2008 15:48:58 AEST
05:49:08 <pimpbot> planet: Compatibility View Improvements to come in IE8 <11http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/12/03/compatibility-view-improvements-to-come-in-ie8.aspx>
05:49:19 <MikeSmith> .t DST
05:49:19 <phenny> MikeSmith: Sorry, I don't know about the 'DST' timezone.
05:49:29 <MikeSmith> .t AEDT
05:49:29 <phenny> Thu, 04 Dec 2008 16:49:29 AEDT
05:49:41 <heycam> cool
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12:23:26 <MikeSmith> http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/presto-2-2-and-opera-10-a-first-look/#selectorsapi
12:23:27 <pimpbot> Title: Presto 2.2 and Opera 10 — a first look - Opera Developer Community (at dev.opera.com)
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16:53:28 <anne> oh right
16:53:56 <anne> DanC, I tried commenting on your QA blog entry btw
16:54:28 <DanC> ah; good. I prolly should have sent mail to the webapps comments list 1st
16:56:04 <anne> oh, we've got feed readers
16:56:38 <MikeSmith> trackbot, start meeting
16:56:40 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:56:42 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be HTML
16:56:42 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()12:00PM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
16:56:43 <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
16:56:43 <trackbot> Date: 04 December 2008
16:56:49 <ChrisWilson> ChrisWilson has joined #html-wg
16:56:51 <MikeSmith> Chair: MikeSmith
16:56:58 <MikeSmith> Zakim, code?
16:56:58 <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), MikeSmith
16:57:05 <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started
16:57:12 <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
16:57:13 <Zakim> Attendees were 
16:57:30 <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started
16:57:37 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:57:43 <Zakim> +Christiane_Fellbaum
16:57:46 <ChrisWilson> zakim, microsoft is me
16:57:46 <Zakim> +ChrisWilson; got it
16:57:47 <Zakim> -ChrisWilson
16:57:47 <Zakim> +ChrisWilson
16:57:56 <ChrisWilson> wow, that's weird.
16:58:06 <Zakim> +Adam
16:58:18 <ChrisWilson> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:58:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see ChrisWilson, Christiane_Fellbaum, Adam
16:59:01 <Zakim> -Christiane_Fellbaum
16:59:04 <ChrisWilson> Mike, are you joining on the telephone?
16:59:12 <Zakim> +Julian
16:59:23 <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson: yeah, in one minute
17:01:00 <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike
17:01:00 <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
17:01:01 <Zakim> +Mike
17:01:44 <MikeSmith> Topic: Agenda review
17:02:01 <Julian> agenda: maybe the charter issue?
17:02:41 <Zakim> +Christiane_Fellbaum
17:02:46 <Zakim> +DanC
17:02:46 <MikeSmith> Julian: charter issue?
17:03:40 <MikeSmith> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2008OctDec/0011.html
17:03:42 <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG telcon 2008-12-04 - headers attribute, Origin header from Michael(tm) Smith on 2008-12-03 (public-html-wg-announce@w3.org from October to December 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
17:03:52 <Joshue> Joshue has joined #html-wg
17:04:32 <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
17:04:32 <Zakim> On the phone I see ChrisWilson, Adam, Julian, Mike, Christiane_Fellbaum, DanC
17:04:58 <MikeSmith> Regrets: ShawnMedero, DaveSinger
17:05:07 <Zakim> + +2
17:05:17 <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
17:05:17 <Zakim> On the phone I see ChrisWilson, Adam, Julian, Mike, Christiane_Fellbaum, DanC, +2
17:05:20 <Joshue> zakim, ++ 2 is Joshue
17:05:20 <Zakim> I don't understand '++ 2 is Joshue', Joshue
17:05:27 <abarth> abarth has joined #html-wg
17:05:29 <DanC> Zakim, +2 is Joshue
17:05:29 <Zakim> +Joshue; got it
17:05:54 <DanC> Zakim, agenda?
17:05:54 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
17:05:56 <Zakim> 5. discuss ping [from ChrisWilson]
17:06:10 <DanC> Zakim, clear agenda
17:06:10 <Zakim> agenda cleared
17:07:21 <MikeSmith> Scribenick: MikeSmith 
17:07:35 <MikeSmith> [no additions to agenda]
17:07:52 <MikeSmith> Topic: headers attribute
17:08:11 <MikeSmith> Joshue: we are basically waiting until Hixie makes movement on this
17:08:36 <MikeSmith> ... we could talk about Ben Millard's recent messages [but perhaps not necessary]
17:09:13 <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Dec/0004.html
17:09:14 <pimpbot> Title: Comparison of Smart Headers and HTML5 (ACTION-85) from Ben Millard on 2008-12-01 (public-html@w3.org from December 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
17:09:45 <collinjackson> collinjackson has joined #html-wg
17:09:46 <DanC> ACTION-84?
17:09:46 <trackbot> ACTION-84 -- Joshue O Connor to prepare status report on @headers discussion by next week -- due 2008-11-19 -- OPEN
17:09:46 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/84
17:09:48 <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-84 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:10:05 <DanC> action-84: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Dec/0004.html
17:10:07 <pimpbot> Title: Comparison of Smart Headers and HTML5 (ACTION-85) from Ben Millard on 2008-12-01 (public-html@w3.org from December 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
17:10:20 <trackbot> ACTION-84 Prepare status report on @headers discussion by next week notes added
17:10:28 <MikeSmith> Julian: so that action is done and can be closed (action 84)
17:10:31 <anne> Zakim, passcode?
17:10:32 <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), anne
17:10:42 <Zakim> +??P0
17:10:48 <anne> Zakim, P0 is me
17:10:48 <Zakim> sorry, anne, I do not recognize a party named 'P0'
17:10:58 <anne> Zakim, ??P0 is me
17:10:58 <Zakim> +anne; got it
17:10:58 <MikeSmith> s/Julian: so/Joshue: /
17:11:03 <Lachy> hi
17:11:07 <DanC> action-85?
17:11:07 <trackbot> ACTION-85 -- Ben Millard to compare "Smart Headers" with HTML5 algorithm -- due 2008-12-01 -- OPEN
17:11:07 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/85
17:11:08 <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-85 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:11:21 <DanC> q+
17:11:28 <MikeSmith> ack DanC 
17:11:47 <MikeSmith> DanC: looking at action-85, I see a forward from Laura Carlson
17:12:10 <MikeSmith> ... saw an admin message that Laura Carlson had left the group. Do we know why?
17:12:27 <Zakim> +??P8
17:12:36 <Lachy> Zakim, I am ??P8
17:12:36 <Zakim> +Lachy; got it
17:12:46 <MikeSmith> Joshue: I think she's had some other things that are taking a lot of her time.
17:12:50 <Zakim> + +1.650.858.aabb
17:13:08 <DanC> Zakim, aabb is John_Mitchell
17:13:08 <Zakim> +John_Mitchell; got it
17:14:00 <Zakim> +Murray_Maloney
17:14:19 <Dsinger_> Dsinger_ has joined #html-wg
17:14:40 <MikeSmith> DanC: somewhere in WCAG 2.0, there's an example of this technique
17:14:50 <MikeSmith> Joshue: otoh, dunno
17:15:13 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:15:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/12/04-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
17:15:38 <DanC> (photo of Ben? have I met him?)
17:15:38 <Zakim> -Murray_Maloney
17:16:13 <Lachy> DanC, photos of Ben here http://projectcerbera.com/me/
17:16:14 <pimpbot> Title: About Me - Project Cerbera (at projectcerbera.com)
17:16:22 <Zakim> +Murray_Maloney
17:16:41 <MikeSmith> http://sitesurgeon.co.uk/
17:16:42 <pimpbot> Title: Site Surgeon (at sitesurgeon.co.uk)
17:16:57 <DanC> found the example from wcag 2 http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H43.html
17:16:57 <MikeSmith> Ben Millard ↑
17:16:58 <pimpbot> Title: H43: Using id and headers attributes to associate data cells with header cells in data tables | Techniques for WCAG 2.0 (at www.w3.org)
17:17:27 <MikeSmith> DanC: Joshue, can you take a look at that (H43)?
17:17:43 <MikeSmith> [Joshue takes a look]
17:18:00 <MikeSmith> DanC: I understand that represents something that is fairly widely practiced.
17:18:33 <MikeSmith> DanC: so Ben's comparison doesn't say anything one way or the other about H43?
17:18:36 <MikeSmith> Julian: yeah
17:18:55 <MikeSmith> s/Julian: yeah/Joshue: yeah/
17:18:59 <DanC> issue-20?
17:18:59 <trackbot> ISSUE-20 -- Improvements to the table-headers algorithm in the HTML 5 spec -- OPEN
17:18:59 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/20
17:19:01 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-20 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:19:13 <MikeSmith> Joshue: but worth looking at, definitely .. relevant to what we're doing
17:19:52 <Joshue> zakim, mute me
17:19:52 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
17:19:56 <MikeSmith> DanC: I understand that people marking up complex financial data use that technique
17:20:03 <DanC> my earlier work where I got a thumbs-down from a validator: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jun/0334.html
17:20:04 <pimpbot> Title: headers on th too or just td? from Dan Connolly on 2008-06-26 (public-html@w3.org from June 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
17:20:53 <Joshue> zakim, unmute me
17:20:53 <Zakim> Joshue should no longer be muted
17:20:57 <Joshue> +q
17:21:10 <MikeSmith> MikeSmith: Hixie has the ball on this.
17:21:20 <DanC> action-87?
17:21:20 <trackbot> ACTION-87 -- Michael(tm) Smith to ensure Ian Hickson follows up on semantics-tables messages -- due 2008-12-04 -- OPEN
17:21:20 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/87
17:21:21 <MikeSmith> (MikeSmith is supposed to have an action on this.)
17:21:21 <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-87 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:21:29 <DanC> action-87 due next week
17:21:29 <trackbot> ACTION-87 Ensure Ian Hickson follows up on semantics-tables messages due date now next week
17:22:49 <MikeSmith> Joshue: comparison of smart-headers algo to HTML5 is valuable, but we still have the issue of how to mark up.. two separate issues
17:22:54 <DanC> (two separate issues? hmm. I'm not following closely enough to see that.)
17:23:19 <MikeSmith> Joshue: HTML5 still does not allow chained headers, and without that, it's difficult to mark up complex tables
17:24:34 <Lachy> The smart headers algorithm handles that H43 without the headers attribute
17:24:48 <MikeSmith> Joshue: there are some different suggestions on the wiki about how to mark up chained headers
17:25:16 <anne> (you blogged about it)
17:25:20 <Lachy> what's this origin stuff about?
17:25:35 <MikeSmith> close action-84
17:25:35 <trackbot> ACTION-84 Prepare status report on @headers discussion by next week closed
17:25:48 <MikeSmith> Topic: Origin header
17:25:52 <anne> Lachy, I'm guessing it's about the HTTP header defined by Access Control
17:26:21 <Lachy> oh
17:27:05 <abarth> (i'm on the call, btw)
17:27:15 <anne> hey abarth!
17:27:18 <abarth> hi anne
17:27:19 <MikeSmith> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2008-November/017593.html
17:27:20 <pimpbot> Title: [whatwg] CSRFs and Origin header and s (at lists.whatwg.org)
17:27:35 <collinjackson> I'm on the call too
17:27:47 <MikeSmith> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2008-November/thread.html#17593
17:27:48 <pimpbot> Title: The whatwg November 2008 Archive by thread (at lists.whatwg.org)
17:28:00 <MikeSmith> http://crypto.stanford.edu/websec/specs/origin-header/
17:28:01 <pimpbot> Title: Origin Header for CSRF Mitigation (at crypto.stanford.edu)
17:28:05 <Zakim> -Joshue
17:28:20 <MikeSmith> "This document describes the use of the Origin header for mitigating cross-site request forgery (CSRF) vulnerabilities in web sites. To help sites defend against CSRF attacks, user agents send a Origin header with HTTP requests that identities the origin that initiated the request. If the user agent cannot determine the origin, the user agents sends the value null."
17:28:35 <MikeSmith> ..
17:28:39 <MikeSmith> "I'm not sure if the HTTP spec is the most appropriate place because
17:28:39 <MikeSmith> the spec has a dependency on HTML 5 to compute the ASCII serialization
17:28:39 <MikeSmith> of the origin.
17:28:39 <MikeSmith> "
17:29:30 <DanC> compute it from what, I wonder. sigh. struggling to keep up
17:29:37 <Julian> q+
17:29:49 <MikeSmith> ack Julian 
17:29:53 <abarth> DanC compute it from a URL
17:30:06 <anne> well, from an origin
17:30:07 <DanC> ah. thanks. clearly that can be separated from HTML
17:30:09 <MikeSmith> Julian: HTTPbis wg is not chartered to add anything new to the protocol
17:30:19 <MikeSmith> ... so it would not be a work item of the HTTPbis WG
17:30:20 <anne> and origin depends on browsing contexts and scripting contexts and such
17:30:27 <DanC> compute an origin from an origin?
17:30:36 <MikeSmith> ... we would need to talk to one of the App Area directors
17:30:37 <anne> you compute a serialization
17:30:40 <DanC> ok
17:30:50 <MikeSmith> ... isn't Lisa D. in the loop on this already?
17:30:55 <MikeSmith> MikeSmith: yeah, I think so.
17:31:56 <MikeSmith> abarth: basic idea is to help sites defend themselves against CRSF attacks 
17:32:20 <MikeSmith> ... there are some issues on trying to do this with the Refer header 
17:32:21 <MikeSmith> ...
17:32:32 <DanC> (how does/would Referer mitigate CSRF attacks? I'm short a few clues.)
17:32:58 <MikeSmith> abarth: there's an experimental implementation in WebKit
17:33:05 <anne> (Referer is often filtered out or simply not included as it included privacy sensitive path information)
17:33:20 <MikeSmith> abarth: the Refer header implicates who sent the request 
17:33:56 <DanC> (attacker.com sends a request to vicitim.net via browser... referer shows victim.net that request comes from attacker.com)
17:34:02 <collinjackson> Julian: null is not a valid URL, so it's not really ambiguous
17:34:43 <MikeSmith> abarth: Origin in that case would point to attacker.com
17:34:47 <anne> collinjackson, in theory it could be a valid origin, no?
17:34:48 <Julian> collinjackson: I'd prefer something like: "none" | "<" URL ">"
17:35:04 <anne> collinjackson, sorry, nm me
17:35:31 <MikeSmith> abarth: when you include a script, it becomes part of the current document
17:35:53 <MikeSmith> ... just as if you embedded it in the document
17:36:13 <MikeSmith> abarth: there are some situations where the UA gets confused about what the origin is
17:37:32 <MikeSmith> abarth: attacker can cause a Referer header to be omitted from a request
17:37:51 <MikeSmith> abarth: Origin solves that problem by adding two states 
17:38:07 <anne> Julian, either way is unambiguous
17:38:45 <DanC> "If the user agent issues an HTTP request to one origin in response to an HTTP redirect from another origin, that HTTP request MUST NOT include a non-null Origin header. If the redirected request had an Origin header, the user agent SHOULD include an null Origin header in the request to the new origin."
17:38:49 <DanC>  -- http://crypto.stanford.edu/websec/specs/origin-header/
17:38:51 <pimpbot> Title: Origin Header for CSRF Mitigation (at crypto.stanford.edu)
17:39:14 <Lachy> http://www.w3.org/TR/access-control/
17:39:16 <pimpbot> Title: Access Control for Cross-Site Requests (at www.w3.org)
17:39:28 <Lachy> DanC, http://www.w3.org/TR/access-control/#origin0
17:39:29 <pimpbot> Title: Access Control for Cross-Site Requests (at www.w3.org)
17:40:05 <anne> (The header is defined in the Access Control for Cross-Site Requests specification, see link above. Depends on origin definition in HTML5 though.)
17:40:32 <MikeSmith> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=2524&to=2525
17:40:35 <pimpbot> Title: (X)HTML5 Tracking (at html5.org)
17:40:44 <DanC> (did the Origin: header appear in drafts previous to 12 September 2008 ? )
17:41:12 <adele> adele has joined #html-wg
17:41:36 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #html-wg
17:41:40 <DanC> (I'm getting a better understanding of why hixie's spec was called "Web Applications")
17:41:48 <Zakim> +James_Craig
17:42:01 <dsinger> zakim, james_craig is [Apple]
17:42:01 <Zakim> +[Apple]; got it
17:42:10 <dsinger> zakim, [apple] has dsinger
17:42:10 <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
17:42:13 <DanC> I don't see "origin" in the draft of 17 May 2006 http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-access-control-20060517/
17:42:15 <pimpbot> Title: Authorizing Read Access to XML Content Using the Processing Instruction 1.0 (at www.w3.org)
17:42:23 <MikeSmith> collinjackson: it was called Access-Control-Origin
17:42:32 <Julian> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-access-control-20080214/#access-control-origin0
17:42:32 <MikeSmith> ... before
17:42:32 <pimpbot> Title: Access Control for Cross-site Requests (at www.w3.org)
17:42:40 <anne> Access-Control-Allow-Origin is the "new" response header
17:42:47 <anne> fwiw
17:43:53 <DanC> (I don't see anything like origin: in any WD-access-control drafts previous to 20080912 )
17:44:27 <MikeSmith> Julian: it doesn't seem like a very HTML-related feature to me
17:44:32 <MikeSmith> ... seems generic to HTTP
17:44:45 <MikeSmith> ... if it's standardized, it should be outside the HTML5 spec
17:45:20 <MikeSmith> abarth: it relates closely to HTML5 because it depends on HTML5 for the definition of "origin"
17:46:02 <Lachy> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/#origin
17:46:04 <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 (at www.whatwg.org)
17:46:14 <DanC> (what does SVG do about this stuff?)
17:46:22 <dbaron> dbaron has joined #html-wg
17:47:41 <anne> DanC, currently not much
17:48:09 <DanC> anybody know the rules for the HTTP header registry?
17:48:24 <anne> meh, it seems I can't speak
17:48:29 <abarth> DanC: my understanding is that the header is already registered
17:48:38 <anne> afaict the SVG situation is like HTML4
17:48:40 <DanC> s/DanC:/DanC,/
17:48:54 <dsinger> zakim, what is the number for [apple]?
17:48:54 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, dsinger.
17:48:58 <anne> details are not defined and browser vendors are inventing some kind of security model on top of it, using same origin and such for some features
17:49:11 <MikeSmith> Julian: has Thomas Roessler been involved in this discussion?
17:49:12 <dsinger> zakim, what number is [apple]?
17:49:12 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, dsinger.
17:49:23 <tlr> zakim, who is on the phone?
17:49:23 <Zakim> On the phone I see ChrisWilson, Adam, Julian, Mike, Christiane_Fellbaum, DanC, anne, Lachy, John_Mitchell, Murray_Maloney, [Apple]
17:49:25 <Zakim> [Apple] has dsinger
17:49:27 <MikeSmith> MikeSmith: he's aware of it, I've talked with him a bit
17:49:37 <MikeSmith> tlr: can you join the call briefly?
17:49:42 <tlr> zakim, call thomas-781
17:49:42 <Zakim> ok, tlr; the call is being made
17:49:44 <Zakim> +Thomas
17:49:44 <DanC> well, abarth , origin: is not registered in http://www.iana.org/assignments/message-headers/perm-headers.html
17:49:46 <pimpbot> Title: IANA | Permanent Message Header Field Registry (at www.iana.org)
17:50:01 <DanC> I do see http://www.iana.org/assignments/message-headers/prov/access-control-allow-origin
17:50:04 <anne> DanC, that was because IANA messed up
17:50:29 <anne> DanC, and they didn't reply to my follow-up e-mail so I guess I should try again at some point
17:50:55 <DanC> is your follow-up email archived? I could perhaps escalate
17:51:04 <anne> is iana@iana.org archived?
17:51:07 <Julian> anne: what did they miss up? Are you complaining about the inability to unregister the old header name?
17:51:25 <MikeSmith> tlr: the change to the HTML5 draft states what the Origin header should be set to under certain circumstances ... 
17:51:28 <anne> Julian, I'm complaining about them not registering a header that was in the registration template that's even archived on their site
17:51:51 <MikeSmith> ... does not seem useful for those needing to deploy support on the server side
17:52:04 <anne> (I'm also annoyed by the not being able to unregister, but that's separate.)
17:52:04 <Lionheart> Lionheart has joined #html-wg
17:52:11 <MikeSmith> ... more needs to be done for this, and it would be better not to put it all in the HTML5 spec
17:52:43 <DanC> I don't know of an archive for iana@iana.org, but there's some "datatracker" thingy that the IETF seems to be pretty good about w.r.t. accountability
17:53:09 <anne> I can probably dig up the message number IANA gives back
17:53:10 <DanC> my experience with iana@iana.org is that it's sort of notoriously unreliable.
17:53:28 <MikeSmith> tlr: I think there are number of critical parties to this discussion, many of them are on this call
17:53:45 <anne> (ticket number for my latest number is 206755)
17:53:54 <anne> s/latest number/latest e-mail/
17:53:59 <MikeSmith> ... we need to give the HTTP WG an opportunity to review this
17:54:38 <MikeSmith> tlr: my conclusion is that it needs to be a document of its own
17:54:50 <DanC> action DanC: look into anne's ticket  206755 from iana@iana.org somewhat related to http://www.iana.org/assignments/message-headers/prov/access-control-allow-origin
17:54:50 <trackbot> Created ACTION-88 - Look into anne's ticket  206755 from iana@iana.org somewhat related to http://www.iana.org/assignments/message-headers/prov/access-control-allow-origin [on Dan Connolly - due 2008-12-11].
17:55:04 <collinjackson> tlr: would it be useful to write this up as an RFC?
17:55:17 <anne> isn't there buy in already?
17:55:19 <tlr> collin, don't know whether it's more useful to do this as an RFC than a Rec
17:55:23 <DanC> (that's a slight abuse of the HTML WG tracker, but if we just leave it to my memory, I'm not confident I'll remember)
17:55:40 <DanC> q+ re buy-in
17:55:46 <DanC> q- Joshue
17:56:01 <tlr> anne, mostly, but it makes sense to run it through a process to make sure we're not mistaken about that point.
17:56:18 <DanC> . http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/products/2
17:56:19 <pimpbot> Title: Details on Product HTML Principles/Requirements - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:56:35 <MikeSmith> MikeSmith: Adam, would you be willing to act as editor for a spec for this if we made it a work item in the WebApps WG?
17:56:38 <DanC> issue-63?
17:56:38 <trackbot> ISSUE-63 -- Origin header: in scope? required for this release? -- RAISED
17:56:38 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/63
17:56:39 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-63 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:56:44 <MikeSmith> abarth: Yes
17:57:32 <Lionheart> Lionheart has joined #html-wg
17:58:05 <DanC> ah. spif. thanks, adam
17:58:37 <Zakim> -Lachy
17:58:41 <DanC> mike, wanna make that an action re issue-63? that might help my tiny brain
17:59:16 <MikeSmith> action: MikeSmith to make a proposal to the WebApps WG that we take this on as a work item there, with Adam Barth as the editor
17:59:16 <trackbot> Created ACTION-89 - Make a proposal to the WebApps WG that we take this on as a work item there, with Adam Barth as the editor [on Michael(tm) Smith - due 2008-12-11].
17:59:44 <MikeSmith> Topic: AOB?
17:59:50 <MikeSmith> [none]
18:00:01 <MikeSmith> Topic: Next week's call
18:00:15 <MikeSmith> next week's call will be at the regular time, with Chris Wilson
18:00:26 <Zakim> -Christiane_Fellbaum
18:00:38 <MikeSmith> s/with Chris Wilson/with MikeSmith chairing/
18:00:44 <MikeSmith> [adjourned]
18:00:46 <Zakim> -Murray_Maloney
18:00:47 <Zakim> -Julian
18:00:48 <Zakim> -John_Mitchell
18:00:49 <Zakim> -ChrisWilson
18:00:49 <Zakim> -[Apple]
18:00:51 <Zakim> -Adam
18:00:56 <Zakim> -anne
18:00:56 <Lionheart> Lionheart has joined #html-wg
18:00:59 <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop Mike
18:00:59 <Zakim> Mike is being disconnected
18:01:00 <Zakim> -Mike
18:01:09 <Zakim> -Thomas
18:01:19 <dsinger> zakim, +1.408.996.1010 is [Apple]
18:01:19 <Zakim> sorry, dsinger, I do not recognize a party named '+1.408.996.1010'
18:01:42 <dsinger> zakim, +1.408.996.1010 is always [Apple]
18:01:42 <Zakim> I don't understand '+1.408.996.1010 is always [Apple]', dsinger
18:01:46 <dsinger> bah
18:01:49 <MikeSmith> abarth, collinjackson : thanks for being on. will follow up with you early next week
18:01:54 <anne> maybe people didn't understand that this was a problem specific with form submission for which HTML is a pretty good place to solve the problem given that only HTML has this problem?
18:02:01 <abarth> MikeSmith: sounds good
18:02:16 <anne> I don't really see why a separate document for this is needed
18:02:19 <abarth> anne: yeah, it seems very HTML-related to me
18:03:05 <anne> vendors want this, authors want this, bureaucrats may or may not, but that shouldn't really matter :p
18:03:11 <MikeSmith> heh
18:04:23 <MikeSmith> I think taking it to WebApps for discussion, if the WebApps WG thinks it should just be done in HTML5, we come back
18:04:34 <tlr> anne, you forgot "bureaucrats" want this, too. ;-)
18:06:10 <MikeSmith> .t JST
18:06:10 <phenny> Fri, 05 Dec 2008 03:06:10 JST
18:06:21 <Julian> Anne: I'd like to understand the expectation about server implementations a bit better...
18:06:34 <Julian> Is this some kind of opt-in? That is, if my server doesn
18:06:40 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
18:06:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/12/04-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
18:06:42 <pimpbot> Title: HTML Weekly Teleconference -- 04 Dec 2008 (at www.w3.org)
18:06:44 <Julian> not need it I can just ignore it?
18:06:52 <tlr> julian, yes
18:06:53 <MikeSmith> Zakim, bye
18:06:53 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Christiane_Fellbaum, ChrisWilson, Adam, Julian, Mike, DanC, Joshue, anne, Lachy, +1.650.858.aabb, John_Mitchell, Murray_Maloney,
18:06:53 <Zakim> Zakim has left #html-wg
18:06:57 <Zakim> ... dsinger, Thomas
18:07:08 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, bye
18:07:08 <RRSAgent> I see 6 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-html-wg-actions.rdf :
18:07:08 <RRSAgent> ACTION: DanC to propose to postpone ISSUE-13 handling-http-401-status by explaining the problem, noting the lack of solutions, and asking if postponing is acceptable [1]
18:07:08 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-html-wg-irc#T17-20-19
18:07:08 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Hixie to follow up on semantics-tables messages [2]
18:07:08 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-html-wg-irc#T17-48-25
18:07:08 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ian to follow up on semantics-tables messages [3]
18:07:08 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-html-wg-irc#T17-48-31
18:07:08 <RRSAgent> ACTION: MikeSmith to ensure Ian Hickson follows up on semantics-tables messages [4]
18:07:08 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-html-wg-irc#T17-49-28
18:07:08 <RRSAgent> ACTION: DanC to look into anne's ticket  206755 from iana@iana.org somewhat related to http://www.iana.org/assignments/message-headers/prov/access-control-allow-origin [5]
18:07:08 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/04-html-wg-irc#T17-54-50
18:07:08 <RRSAgent> ACTION: MikeSmith to make a proposal to the WebApps WG that we take this on as a work item there, with Adam Barth as the editor [6]
18:07:08 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/04-html-wg-irc#T17-59-16