14:38:24 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #xhtml
14:38:24 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/12/03-xhtml-irc
14:38:26 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:38:26 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #xhtml
14:38:28 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be IA_XHTML2
14:38:28 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see IA_XHTML2()9:45AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
14:38:29 <trackbot> Meeting: XHTML2 Working Group Teleconference
14:38:29 <trackbot> Date: 03 December 2008
14:38:41 <oedipus> chair: Roland_Merrick
14:38:41 <oedipus> Regrets: Mark_Birbeck, Steven
14:38:41 <oedipus> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Dec/0001.html
14:38:41 <oedipus> Previous: http://www.w3.org/2008/11/26-xhtml-minutes.html
14:38:41 <oedipus> scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
14:38:42 <oedipus> ScribeNick: oedipus
14:38:52 <oedipus> Agenda Planning Tracker: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/agenda
14:38:57 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
14:38:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/12/03-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
14:43:12 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has now started
14:43:19 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
14:43:31 <mgylling> mgylling has joined #xhtml
14:43:53 <Zakim> +Roland
14:44:37 <Zakim> +ShaneM
14:45:07 <Zakim> +??P3
14:45:15 <Zakim> -ShaneM
14:45:27 <ShaneM> bluetooth problems mbe omp
14:45:37 <oedipus> zakim, ??P3 is Markus_Gylling
14:45:37 <Zakim> +Markus_Gylling; got it
14:46:05 <Zakim> +ShaneM
14:46:13 <oedipus> TOPIC: Announcements, News, Hot Topics, Agenda Review
14:46:23 <oedipus> Agenda Planning Tracker: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/agenda
14:46:58 <Zakim> -ShaneM
14:47:08 <ShaneM> low tech crap
14:47:21 <Zakim> +ShaneM
14:48:39 <oedipus> RM: brief update on CURIE syntax - had transition call yesterday, got ok to transition, still paperwork to be done, should move forward
14:48:44 <oedipus> TOPIC: Oustanding Actions - http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/actions/open
14:49:25 <oedipus> RM: XML Events haven't done; DOM discussed yesterday - will include action 40 in status update for HTC 
14:49:39 <oedipus> s/XML Events/XML Events 2
14:50:03 <oedipus> RM: features document?
14:50:13 <oedipus> SM: none are completed unless marked "pending review"
14:50:33 <oedipus> RM: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/actions/11 - policy statement on migration and inclusion
14:50:48 <oedipus> SM: started to do, but could decide where to put
14:50:54 <oedipus> RM: isn't there another action for that
14:51:04 <oedipus> RM: close action 11
14:51:24 <oedipus> RM: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/actions/18 - changes in Mime document
14:51:50 <oedipus> RM: substantive note from Tina - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Nov/0032.html
14:52:08 <oedipus> SM: would rather do when tina here
14:52:21 <oedipus> RM: if no tina at meeting, please respond on-list
14:52:27 <oedipus> RM: action 18 should be closed
14:52:46 <oedipus> RM: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/actions/33 - should be closed 
14:53:17 <oedipus> RESOLVED: Actions 11, 13 and 18 are closed
14:53:47 <oedipus> RM: action 13 might be worth some discussion
14:53:56 <oedipus> SM: delegated it; will ping and update
14:54:13 <oedipus> RM: action 15 - not have separate implements module - fold into XHTML2 - is that correct?
14:54:22 <oedipus> SM: made note to that effect in action
14:54:29 <oedipus> SM: leave action until finished
14:54:54 <oedipus> RM: action item from GJR - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Dec/0000.html
14:58:10 <oedipus> GJR: pf said: "The word "similar" was inserted to satisfy general requirements for HTML processing, since the Role module includes low-level processing specifics, which can't be ported to HTML5; therefore, in order to enable ARIA in HTML5 it is necessary to define low-level DOM parsing whilst still accepting same content, with same accessibility result. Of course, if one is using XHTML2 to author a document, then that author would and SHOULD use the Role Module
14:58:30 <oedipus> RM: all ARIA attributes can be used without prefix; defined for us and in XHTML vocab
14:58:42 <oedipus> RM: for ARIA terms there is no namespaced vocabulary
14:59:05 <oedipus> GJR: agree with RM, think that PF punted
14:59:13 <oedipus> SM: don't know what is going to be in HTML5
14:59:22 <oedipus> GJR: HTML5 e.t.a. is 2012 at earliest
14:59:39 <oedipus> RM: carry on and ignore -- given WAI everything asked for; shouldn't waste our cycles on this
14:59:48 <mib_jqd0sf> mib_jqd0sf has joined #xhtml
15:00:04 <oedipus> RM: de facto implementation of HTML5 by developers
15:00:11 <oedipus> RM: happy to consider item complete
15:00:23 <mib_jqd0sf> ops
15:00:27 <mib_jqd0sf> mib_jqd0sf has left #xhtml
15:00:39 <alessio> alessio has joined #xhtml
15:01:16 <oedipus> SM: during LC review, can submit formal objection because should be using Role attribute PF helped define
15:01:21 <oedipus> GJR: would support that
15:01:30 <Zakim> +??P4
15:01:31 <oedipus> RM: any other actions finished?
15:01:46 <oedipus> zakim, ??P4 is Alessio
15:01:46 <Zakim> +Alessio; got it
15:01:47 <alessio> zakim, ??P4 is Alessio
15:01:48 <Zakim> I already had ??P4 as Alessio, alessio
15:02:11 <oedipus> TOPIC: Access Module
15:02:17 <oedipus> RM: waiting for comments 
15:02:23 <oedipus> GJR: i18n issues?
15:02:44 <Tina> I'll send my comments on the ACCESS module by Monday
15:03:16 <oedipus> SM: comment from forms; Steven brought up in Forms WG - John Boyer (chair) supposed to send us note; can live with it if multiple IDs in XForms and XHTML2 synced; thing XForms comment closed
15:03:38 <oedipus> RM: can close XForms comment
15:04:00 <oedipus> RM: action 35 is complete
15:04:46 <oedipus> SM: everything regards Access closed out; implementation report and disposition of comments all ready; need to wait until CURIEs reaches CR for this to reach CR because references CURIE
15:04:50 <oedipus> RM: same with Role?
15:05:04 <oedipus> SM: yes, not certain if SP has sent in transition request for the 3
15:05:10 <oedipus> RM: haven't seen them
15:05:19 <oedipus> RM: resolved to request CR Transition  [http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-xhtml-minutes.html#item06]
15:05:29 <oedipus> TOPIC: XML Events 2: status? 
15:05:29 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Drafts/#xml-events2 
15:05:29 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Nov/0018.html
15:05:51 <oedipus> RM: discussed last week - going back to DOM2 - have to inspect DOM2 spec - anyone done that?
15:05:54 <oedipus> SM: no
15:05:55 <oedipus> GJR: no
15:06:11 <oedipus> TOPIC: XHTML MIME type: Status? 
15:06:11 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Drafts/#xhtmlmime 
15:06:38 <oedipus> RM: need to get done for XHTML 1.0 SE and 1.1 PER will point to that
15:06:55 <oedipus> SM: issue: XML 1.0 Fifth Edition became a rec yesterday
15:08:11 <oedipus> SM: changes rules / definition of ID - changes what chars are legal in ID; historically have just transitioned to current version of XML (any recs we put out use current XML edition), but what are rammifications of changing @id to make more inclusive - with our documents, some point to fourth edition, some to fifth
15:08:28 <oedipus> RM: reads errata for fourth edition
15:08:29 <mgylling> Before the fifth edition, XML 1.0 was explicitly based on Unicode 2.0. As of the fifth edition, it is based on Unicode 5.0.0 or later. This effectively allows not only characters used today, but also characters that will be used tomorrow.
15:08:46 <oedipus> RM: due to unicode changes?
15:09:27 <oedipus> SM: previously malformed documents now ok; invalid documents now valid -- don't understand
15:09:36 <oedipus> RM: main characters has changed
15:09:46 <mgylling> http://blog.jclark.com/2008/10/xml-10-5th-edition.html
15:10:00 <oedipus> MG: there is a blog entry from James Clark explaining why he thinks fifth edition broken - was controversial
15:10:35 <oedipus> SM: jame's blog is exactly what i thought/concluded
15:11:16 <oedipus> SM: good news (sort of) - always made dated references to 1.0 (reference edition numbers); we are dependent upon namespaces, and they are not referenced
15:11:32 <oedipus> SM: don't understand rammifications, but they keep me awake at night
15:11:57 <oedipus> RM: if stay with Fourth Edition, and say that those in Fifth Edition are ok, but a SUB-SET of those in Fourth Edition
15:12:05 <oedipus> SM: hope change is forward compatible
15:12:21 <oedipus> RM: should leave the pointer alone for XML Fourth Edition
15:12:39 <oedipus> RM: if get through PR review and asked why not Fifth, we say "prove to us won't cause problems"
15:12:41 <oedipus> SM: reasonable
15:12:44 <oedipus> GJR: plus 1
15:13:12 <alessio> +1
15:13:40 <oedipus> RM: keep status quo: publish our specs pointing to XML 1.0 Fourth Edition, until becomes an issue, if becomes and issue
15:14:00 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Nov/0018.html
15:14:09 <Roland> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Nov/0032.html
15:14:18 <oedipus> SM: major change is unicode related
15:14:31 <oedipus> TOPIC: Notes from Tina on XHTML Mime
15:14:52 <oedipus> RM: same mistakes i had found
15:15:02 <oedipus> SM: fixed broken internal links
15:15:40 <oedipus> SM: compatibility guidelines: i know what problem i was trying to solve with sentence in question: remind validation people at W3C that shouldn't validate against this
15:16:02 <oedipus> RM: could be useful to remind of constraints
15:16:56 <alessio> for tina and all... I write a note (in italian) on IWA Italy's blog related to tina's article: http://blog.iwa.it/varie/xhtml-basta-con-la-mitologia/
15:17:01 <oedipus> SM: don't like suggested wording: is a non-sequitor
15:17:30 <oedipus> SM: "TOPIC: XHTML MIME type: Status? 
15:17:30 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Drafts/#xhtmlmime 
15:17:57 <oedipus> Tina's comment: ""It contains no absolute requirements, and should NEVER be used as
15:17:57 <oedipus> the basis for creating conformance nor validation rules of any sort.
15:17:57 <oedipus> Period.""
15:18:17 <oedipus> RM: constraint over and above language definition; could write style guide
15:18:30 <oedipus> RM: replace paragraph with something less dogmatic
15:18:52 <oedipus> SM: accept suggestion for example 3 - don't use P
15:19:23 <oedipus> RM: "A.4. Embedded Style Sheets and Scripts
15:19:58 <oedipus> RM: didn't we originally say to avoid inline style and scripts?
15:20:08 <oedipus> SM: she's attempting to make more assertive, i believe
15:20:28 <oedipus> SM: trying to explain why suggested trick for embedding works
15:20:35 <oedipus> SM: we can explain that
15:20:46 <oedipus> RM: make clear that is explanation; don't have to if don't want to
15:20:51 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
15:20:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/12/03-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
15:21:40 <oedipus> SM: A.5 - generic advice; i think has to do with XML versus HTML
15:22:01 <oedipus> "This sounds like generic advice for writing markup, rather then something relevant to the differences between XHTML and HTML. I could be mistaken and would welcome pointers to the relevant parts of the specifications if so."
15:22:32 <oedipus> RM: might be useful if each of these assertions in A.5 are linked
15:22:34 <oedipus> SM: they are
15:22:38 <oedipus> RM: don't show in ToC
15:22:44 <oedipus> SM: no don't show in ToC
15:23:22 <oedipus> RM: linebreak attribute values
15:23:34 <oedipus> SM: in XML attribute values are ...
15:23:40 <oedipus> MG: whitespace neutralized?
15:23:44 <oedipus> SM: yes 
15:23:58 <oedipus> RM: isn't that part of rationale?  ensure on single line isn't bad advice
15:24:21 <oedipus> SM: don't remember why did in first place - tina wants rationale - thought had to do with whitespace normalization
15:24:33 <mgylling> If the attribute type is not CDATA, then the XML processor MUST further process the normalized attribute value by discarding any leading and trailing space (#x20) characters, and by replacing sequences of space (#x20) characters by a single space (#x20) character.
15:24:38 <oedipus> MG: section 3.3.3 of XML spec
15:25:06 <oedipus> MG: depends on type of attribute; if not CDATA discusses discarding leading and trailing space
15:25:11 <oedipus> RM: option for class as well?
15:25:20 <oedipus> s/class/collapse
15:26:07 <oedipus> MG: 3.3.3 says replace XML def of whitespace by single space only; linebreaks "normalized" to single space, leading or trailing
15:26:20 <oedipus> SM: section 2.1.1 on end of line handling
15:26:35 <oedipus> SM: end of lines normalized even if inside attribute value
15:26:46 <oedipus> SM: turns linefeeds into spaces
15:27:24 <oedipus> RM: read section 3.3.3 and 2.1.1 and best to avoid those situations since don't know what non-XML parsers would do
15:27:47 <oedipus> RM: A.11 - "Perhaps an example showing how to convert to lower case before checking would help clarify this for some people?"
15:28:00 <oedipus> SM: do ensure that attribute names ... are case insensitive
15:28:20 <oedipus> SM: can show people how to call to lower
15:28:26 <oedipus> RM: ok
15:28:39 <oedipus> SM: A.25 - i know answer and will send it to her
15:29:24 <oedipus> SM: A.26. - "to justify removing accessiblity feature..." -- we aren't removing, we are telling people not to do it -- same problem as NOSCRIPT
15:29:36 <oedipus> RM: deal with NOSCRIPT in whatever answer you send to tina
15:30:15 <oedipus> SM: Example Document concerns: good point about style element (no bad stuff to escape) - rather than remove CDATA markers, should put bad stuff in
15:30:28 <oedipus> SM: final comment - grouping selector - 
15:30:55 <oedipus> RM: because HTML and BODY elements are identical, can define style once using "html,body { }"
15:30:56 <Roland> html, body {background-color: #e4e5e9; }
15:31:31 <oedipus> RM: list, not heirarchy
15:31:33 <oedipus> SM: right
15:32:26 <oedipus> SM: have bunch of changes to make - between last publication and now, pub rules have changed for Notes - additional reqs on Note we need to satisfy; will make process changes along with changes stemming from tina and our discussion of it
15:32:33 <oedipus> RM: use of ABBR or ACRONYM
15:32:45 <oedipus> GJR: have proposed INIT (initialism)
15:33:07 <oedipus> SM: will fold in WG's response to Tina's comments into Mime today along with other pub-related stuff
15:33:13 <oedipus> TOPIC: XHTML2
15:33:57 <oedipus> RM: question on "do we need nl?"  - motivation, wanted navigation, but maybe use "nav" as a section - more than list - complete block, like a section
15:34:10 <oedipus> GJR: similar to Role/ARIA concept of "nav"
15:34:48 <oedipus> RM: yes, big major area, not just detail, but block of navigational options
15:35:02 <oedipus> RM: look at way NAV is defined when return to question:
15:35:19 <oedipus> RM: would nav obviate need for NL via specialized container
15:35:31 <oedipus> SM: had action to send out conversation starter
15:35:48 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Nov/0015.html
15:36:36 <oedipus> RM: ol role="nav" versus nl - will reply and through into mix that this is bigger question: NAV as structural element; will kick off conversation by replying to shane's note
15:37:08 <Tina> I have a half-finished reply to Shane's conversation starter
15:37:16 <oedipus> SM: point i was trying to make is have diff mechanisms to satisfy diff needs; should think about needs
15:37:27 <oedipus> GJR: positive "yes!" reaction to shane's post
15:37:37 <oedipus> ADJOURN
15:37:44 <Zakim> -Markus_Gylling
15:37:45 <Zakim> -ShaneM
15:37:46 <Zakim> -Roland
15:37:47 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
15:37:49 <Zakim> -Alessio
15:37:50 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has ended
15:37:51 <Zakim> Attendees were Gregory_Rosmaita, Roland, ShaneM, Markus_Gylling, Alessio
15:37:59 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
15:37:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/12/03-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
15:41:06 <oedipus> present+ Tina_on_IRC
15:41:13 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
15:41:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/12/03-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
15:43:01 <oedipus> s/low tech crap/having difficulties with headset
15:43:04 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
15:43:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/12/03-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
15:45:55 <Roland> Roland has left #xhtml
15:51:04 <oedipus> rrsagent, please part
15:51:04 <RRSAgent> I see no action items