IRC log of owl on 2008-11-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:41:43 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #owl
17:41:43 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/11/26-owl-irc
17:41:50 [bmotik]
rrsagent, make log public
17:55:07 [Rinke]
Rinke has joined #owl
17:56:39 [ivan]
ivan has joined #owl
17:57:33 [Zakim]
SW_OWL()1:00PM has now started
17:57:40 [Zakim]
+??P0
17:57:46 [schneid]
schneid has joined #owl
17:57:50 [IanH]
zakim, ??P0 is IanH
17:57:50 [Zakim]
+IanH; got it
17:57:54 [bcuencagrau]
bcuencagrau has joined #owl
17:58:46 [Zakim]
+??P5
17:58:47 [IanH]
RRSAgent, make records public
17:58:52 [Zakim]
+??P6
17:58:52 [bcuencagrau]
Zakim, ??P15 is me
17:58:53 [Zakim]
I already had ??P15 as sylvaing, bcuencagrau
17:59:06 [bcuencagrau]
Zakim, ??P6 is me
17:59:06 [Zakim]
+bcuencagrau; got it
17:59:13 [Zakim]
-bcuencagrau
17:59:20 [Zakim]
+Peter_Patel-Schneider
17:59:28 [IanH]
IanH has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2008.11.26/Agenda
17:59:36 [Zakim]
+??P6
17:59:37 [bcuencagrau]
Zakim, mute me
17:59:38 [Zakim]
sorry, bcuencagrau, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
17:59:41 [bmotik]
Zakim, ??p6 is me
17:59:41 [Zakim]
+bmotik; got it
17:59:44 [bmotik]
Zakim, mute me
17:59:44 [Zakim]
bmotik should now be muted
17:59:48 [Zakim]
+??P7
17:59:50 [IanH]
zakim, who is here?
17:59:50 [Zakim]
On the phone I see IanH, ??P5, Peter_Patel-Schneider, bmotik (muted), ??P7
17:59:50 [Zakim]
On IRC I see bcuencagrau, schneid, ivan, Rinke, RRSAgent, Zakim, bmotik, IanH, pfps, sandro, trackbot
17:59:58 [Zakim]
-??P5
18:00:00 [schneid]
zakim, ??P7 is me
18:00:00 [Zakim]
+schneid; got it
18:00:03 [Zakim]
+Rinke
18:00:04 [ivan]
zakim, dial ivan-voip
18:00:05 [Zakim]
ok, ivan; the call is being made
18:00:07 [Zakim]
+Ivan
18:00:07 [schneid]
scribe is here!
18:00:18 [ivan]
zakim, mute me
18:00:18 [Zakim]
Ivan should now be muted
18:00:30 [Zakim]
+??P5
18:00:34 [bcuencagrau]
Zakim, ??P5 is me
18:00:34 [Zakim]
+bcuencagrau; got it
18:00:38 [bcuencagrau]
Zakim, mute me
18:00:38 [Zakim]
bcuencagrau should now be muted
18:00:39 [IanH]
ScribeNick: schneid
18:00:49 [baojie]
baojie has joined #owl
18:01:00 [Zakim]
+Sandro
18:01:10 [MarkusK_]
MarkusK_ has joined #owl
18:01:23 [uli]
uli has joined #owl
18:01:23 [IanH]
zakim, who is here?
18:01:23 [Zakim]
On the phone I see IanH, Peter_Patel-Schneider, bmotik (muted), schneid, Rinke, Ivan (muted), bcuencagrau (muted), Sandro
18:01:25 [Zakim]
On IRC I see uli, MarkusK_, baojie, bcuencagrau, schneid, ivan, Rinke, RRSAgent, Zakim, bmotik, IanH, pfps, sandro, trackbot
18:01:40 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
18:01:58 [Zakim]
+??P12
18:02:02 [schneid]
Topic: Admin
18:02:06 [uli]
zakim, ??P12 is me
18:02:06 [Zakim]
+uli; got it
18:02:08 [IanH]
zakim, who is here?
18:02:08 [Zakim]
On the phone I see IanH, Peter_Patel-Schneider, bmotik (muted), schneid, Rinke, Ivan (muted), bcuencagrau (muted), Sandro, MarkusK_, uli
18:02:10 [Zakim]
On IRC I see uli, MarkusK_, baojie, bcuencagrau, schneid, ivan, Rinke, RRSAgent, Zakim, bmotik, IanH, pfps, sandro, trackbot
18:02:12 [uli]
zakim, mute me
18:02:12 [Zakim]
uli should now be muted
18:02:12 [schneid]
Topic: Role Call
18:02:22 [schneid]
Topic: Agenda Amendments
18:02:25 [christine]
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18:02:36 [Achille]
Achille has joined #owl
18:02:41 [schneid]
Ian: added additional points to the agenda
18:02:44 [Zakim]
+ +1.978.805.aaaa
18:02:49 [alanr]
alanr has joined #owl
18:02:54 [baojie]
Zakim, aaaa is baojie
18:02:54 [Zakim]
+baojie; got it
18:02:55 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
18:02:56 [uli]
look fine to me
18:02:57 [schneid]
Topic: Previous Minutes
18:03:03 [JeffP]
JeffP has joined #owl
18:03:05 [pfps]
they look OK to me
18:03:07 [Achille]
Zakim, IBM is me
18:03:07 [Zakim]
+Achille; got it
18:03:16 [Zakim]
+??P18
18:03:18 [Rinke]
look ok to me as well
18:03:19 [schneid]
ianh: peter finds them ok
18:03:28 [schneid]
ianh: i also find them pretty ok
18:03:50 [Zakim]
+Jonathan_Rees
18:03:58 [schneid]
Topic: Actions
18:04:07 [alanr]
zakim, Jonathan_Rees is me
18:04:07 [Zakim]
+alanr; got it
18:04:11 [pfps]
RESOLVED: Accept Previous Minutes (19 November)
18:04:28 [schneid]
SubTopic: rdf:XMLLiteral on Boris, any complaints?
18:04:38 [schneid]
ianh: rdf:XMLLiteral on Boris, any complaints?
18:04:39 [IanH]
q?
18:04:45 [Zakim]
+StuartTaylor
18:04:56 [alanr]
zakim, mute me
18:04:56 [Zakim]
alanr should now be muted
18:04:57 [JeffP]
zakim, StuartTaylor is me
18:04:58 [Zakim]
+JeffP; got it
18:05:09 [schneid]
Action 250:
18:05:09 [trackbot]
Sorry, bad ACTION syntax
18:05:13 [schneid]
sandro: ok
18:05:22 [IanH]
q?
18:05:23 [schneid]
Action 249:
18:05:23 [trackbot]
Sorry, bad ACTION syntax
18:05:33 [schneid]
ianh: I have made it
18:05:50 [IanH]
q?
18:06:04 [schneid]
ianh: any comments on Action 248
18:06:17 [schneid]
Topic: Reviewing and Publishing
18:06:34 [schneid]
ianh: last telecom before publication of LC documents
18:06:46 [schneid]
ianh: thanks to editors
18:06:49 [IanH]
q?
18:06:58 [schneid]
ianh: thinks that the documents are in good shape
18:07:16 [IanH]
q?
18:07:24 [schneid]
ianh: actions also seem to be done, except for those we are talking about today
18:07:36 [schneid]
ianh: let's go through the list of documents
18:07:38 [IanH]
q?
18:08:06 [IanH]
q?
18:08:17 [schneid]
sandro: there are still some typographical etc. problems
18:08:27 [schneid]
q+
18:08:32 [IanH]
q?
18:08:37 [IanH]
ack schneid
18:09:25 [IanH]
q?
18:09:42 [schneid]
schneid: i will be finished with my editorial checks of the Full document tomorrow evening
18:09:53 [schneid]
ianh: please send then a mail
18:10:00 [IanH]
q?
18:10:19 [schneid]
ianh: there was some issue with rdf:text
18:10:24 [IanH]
q?
18:10:44 [schneid]
ianh: we discussed last week about the primer
18:11:31 [IanH]
q?
18:11:43 [sandro]
Sandro: let's mention what's going on with Primer in the the SOTD of QuickRef
18:12:08 [schneid]
sandro: can go and work on it
18:12:13 [sandro]
ACTION: ian mention what's going on with Primer in the the SOTD of QuickRef
18:12:13 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-253 - Mention what's going on with Primer in the the SOTD of QuickRef [on Ian Horrocks - due 2008-12-03].
18:12:50 [schneid]
SubTopic: Grammar appendices
18:12:56 [ewallace]
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18:13:06 [IanH]
q?
18:13:27 [schneid]
ianh: believes that boris will first fill apdx when everything else will be fine
18:13:32 [IanH]
q?
18:13:38 [Zakim]
+Evan_Wallace
18:14:02 [schneid]
ianh: can we go to LC with EdNotes there?
18:14:11 [schneid]
sandro: no problem, no change in design
18:14:12 [IanH]
q?
18:14:18 [bmotik]
+q
18:14:21 [IanH]
q?
18:14:25 [bmotik]
Zakim, unmute me
18:14:25 [Zakim]
bmotik should no longer be muted
18:14:33 [IanH]
ack bmotik
18:14:38 [schneid]
ianh: it's just pasting text from the document
18:14:56 [schneid]
bmotik: can do this tomorrow for Profiles
18:15:06 [IanH]
q?
18:15:40 [bmotik]
ACTION: bmotik2 to Create missing grammars in the documents
18:15:40 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-254 - Create missing grammars in the documents [on Boris Motik - due 2008-12-03].
18:15:44 [bmotik]
Zakim, mute me
18:15:44 [Zakim]
bmotik should now be muted
18:15:45 [schneid]
ianh: otherwise people will have a hard time to work with this document
18:15:50 [alanr]
zakim, unmute me
18:15:50 [Zakim]
alanr should no longer be muted
18:15:59 [IanH]
q?
18:16:09 [alanr]
q+
18:16:12 [bmotik]
Let's remove this section
18:16:12 [IanH]
q?
18:16:14 [schneid]
SubTopic: Differences from OWL 1
18:16:16 [IanH]
ack alanr
18:16:34 [IanH]
q?
18:16:36 [bmotik]
+1
18:16:40 [IanH]
q?
18:16:41 [schneid]
alanr: a good thing to have such a section there
18:16:47 [IanH]
ack bmotik
18:16:48 [schneid]
q+
18:16:49 [bmotik]
Zakim, unmute me
18:16:53 [Zakim]
bmotik was not muted, bmotik
18:17:04 [alanr]
zakim, mute me
18:17:04 [Zakim]
alanr should now be muted
18:17:07 [IanH]
ack schneid
18:17:12 [IanH]
q?
18:17:44 [IanH]
q?
18:17:55 [alanr]
+1 to putting it in new features as well
18:18:14 [alanr]
perhaps leave an editors note there
18:18:19 [IanH]
q?
18:18:34 [bmotik]
can I remove this section?
18:18:35 [bmotik]
q+
18:18:36 [schneid]
schneid: have started to create an item list on changes to OWL 1 Full, but will finish it not before LC
18:18:41 [IanH]
q?
18:18:53 [schneid]
ianh: what about putting it in special document
18:19:17 [IanH]
q?
18:19:19 [schneid]
schneid: will go in in Full document for the moment, and then move it, if we have such a document
18:19:21 [bmotik]
-q
18:19:21 [IanH]
ack bmotik
18:20:47 [schneid]
ianh: (explains to christine) we have currently a section in the Syntax document on changes between OWL 1 and 2, but discuss to move this section to a separate document [FIXME?]
18:20:55 [IanH]
q?
18:21:03 [schneid]
SubTopic: Relative URIs
18:21:06 [alanr]
zakim, unmute me
18:21:06 [Zakim]
alanr should no longer be muted
18:21:07 [IanH]
q?
18:21:08 [alanr]
q+
18:21:14 [IanH]
ack alanr
18:21:30 [schneid]
ianh: believes to understand the state of discussion was that nothing needs to be done
18:21:31 [IanH]
q?
18:21:45 [bmotik]
q+
18:21:51 [sandro]
(referred section of Syntax, from above is: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Syntax#Appendix:_Differences_from_OWL_1_Abstract_Syntax_.28Nonnormative.29 )
18:22:47 [schneid]
bmotik: realized after email discussion
18:23:19 [IanH]
q?
18:23:21 [alanr]
q+
18:23:26 [schneid]
... if shifting documents around, the relative URI will get resolved with something else
18:23:27 [IanH]
ack bmotik
18:23:30 [IanH]
ack alanr
18:24:08 [bmotik]
q+
18:24:14 [IanH]
Alanr: previously said that he only wanted to make sure that use of relative URIs is not outlawed.
18:24:17 [IanH]
q?
18:24:33 [IanH]
ack bmotik
18:24:36 [schneid]
alanr: we don't want to prohibit tools from doing it
18:25:03 [IanH]
q?
18:25:09 [schneid]
bmotik: several syntaxes have a base (RDF syntax, Functional syntax)
18:25:15 [IanH]
q?
18:25:39 [IanH]
q?
18:26:24 [IanH]
q?
18:26:42 [IanH]
q?
18:26:51 [schneid]
bmotik: not mentioned anywhere, it's up to the tools
18:26:59 [IanH]
q?
18:27:15 [schneid]
SubTopic: RIF coordination
18:27:18 [IanH]
q?
18:27:23 [JeffP]
q+
18:27:40 [alanr]
nothing prohibits a tool from reserializating a relative URI found in a document as a relative URI, despite the fact that the structure only has full URIs.
18:27:50 [schneid]
ianh: issues were about datatypes and OWL RL
18:27:54 [IanH]
q?
18:27:57 [uli]
q+
18:28:01 [IanH]
ack JeffP
18:28:04 [alanr]
q+
18:28:21 [schneid]
jeffp: RIF document talks about DLP, not RL
18:28:27 [uli]
zakim, unmute me
18:28:27 [Zakim]
uli should no longer be muted
18:28:29 [IanH]
ack uli
18:28:52 [schneid]
uli: has sent a review about RIF / OWL compatibility
18:29:09 [IanH]
q?
18:29:20 [schneid]
... point was it would make things easier to replace DLP by RL
18:29:43 [IanH]
q?
18:29:46 [IanH]
ack alanr
18:29:55 [uli]
zakim, unmute me
18:29:55 [Zakim]
uli was not muted, uli
18:29:59 [uli]
zakim, mute me
18:29:59 [Zakim]
uli should now be muted
18:30:23 [schneid]
ianh: understood mails from Uli that RIF should be brought up to date to current OWL development
18:31:09 [IanH]
q?
18:31:25 [schneid]
alanr: we could at AtRisk note in Profiles that we are coordinating with RIF
18:31:39 [ivan]
q+
18:31:39 [IanH]
q?
18:31:41 [schneid]
q+
18:31:49 [ivan]
zakim, unmute me
18:31:49 [Zakim]
Ivan should no longer be muted
18:32:04 [schneid]
sandro: doubious about this
18:32:07 [bmotik]
q+
18:32:29 [schneid]
q-
18:32:34 [IanH]
q?
18:33:08 [IanH]
q?
18:33:12 [schneid]
alanr: should we consider for something like "the RL rules should be represented in RIF style"?
18:33:21 [schneid]
sandro: we should do
18:33:39 [schneid]
sandro: changing to RIF wouldn't change anything in essence
18:34:05 [IanH]
q?
18:34:15 [IanH]
ack ivan
18:34:34 [schneid]
ivan: at risk idea looks strange to him
18:34:39 [IanH]
q?
18:35:23 [schneid]
ivan: no reason for us to say "at risk" because rif has chance to comment on LC
18:35:34 [uli_]
uli_ has joined #owl
18:35:52 [uli_]
uli_ has joined #owl
18:36:14 [pfps]
+1 to Ivan's proposal
18:36:23 [pfps]
... (so far)
18:36:23 [IanH]
q?
18:36:29 [schneid]
ivan: it's not necessary to have rif representation in the profiles spec, we can have a note coordinated with the rif group, which translates the RL rules in rif style
18:37:10 [IanH]
q?
18:37:14 [sandro]
q+ to suggest at-risking all DT's not in RIF
18:37:17 [schneid]
ivan: we should not delay our process for this topic
18:37:57 [alanr]
q+
18:38:06 [schneid]
bmotik: if this is a risky topic, then have a telco with the RIF people, and ask what the differences are to current style for rules
18:38:06 [IanH]
ack bmotik
18:38:27 [IanH]
ack sandro
18:38:27 [Zakim]
sandro, you wanted to suggest at-risking all DT's not in RIF
18:38:32 [schneid]
sandro: supports idea by bmotik
18:38:55 [IanH]
q?
18:39:09 [IanH]
q?
18:39:25 [IanH]
q?
18:39:27 [bmotik]
q+
18:39:51 [IanH]
q?
18:39:57 [IanH]
ack alanr
18:40:02 [ivan]
zakim, mute me
18:40:02 [Zakim]
Ivan should now be muted
18:40:09 [IanH]
q?
18:40:41 [ivan]
+1 to an editorial note
18:40:48 [IanH]
q?
18:41:01 [sandro]
+1 editorial note that a RIF serialization will come along.
18:41:02 [schneid]
alanr: supports having ednote on talking about coordination with rif
18:41:13 [IanH]
q?
18:41:14 [ivan]
q+
18:41:14 [schneid]
... in order to give people a chance to comment on this
18:41:21 [IanH]
ack bmotik
18:41:25 [ivan]
zakim, unmute me
18:41:25 [Zakim]
Ivan should no longer be muted
18:41:38 [JeffP]
yes
18:41:52 [IanH]
q?
18:41:54 [schneid]
bmotik: datatype issue, rif does not have all these string based datatypes
18:42:16 [IanH]
q?
18:42:20 [sandro]
q+ to complain about "just have to extend...", schedule telecon
18:42:24 [schneid]
... don't believe that set of datatypes have to be the same between rif and in profiles
18:42:32 [JeffP]
q+
18:42:38 [schneid]
... because rif has an extension clause, such as owl
18:42:46 [schneid]
... for adding datatypes
18:42:56 [IanH]
q?
18:43:09 [IanH]
q?
18:43:18 [JeffP]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/OWLRL
18:43:31 [IanH]
q?
18:43:35 [IanH]
ack ivan
18:43:59 [schneid]
ianh: there are datatypes in rl (real and rational) which are in the problematic area
18:44:03 [IanH]
q?
18:44:12 [bmotik]
+q
18:44:13 [sandro]
q-
18:44:31 [schneid]
... don't understand why certain datatypes are in rl and others not
18:44:46 [IanH]
q?
18:44:53 [sandro]
okay to 'datatypes in OWL RL'
18:45:00 [schneid]
ianh: we only should talk about datatypes in owl rl, not in complete owl
18:45:26 [sandro]
PROPOSED: Consider the list of datatypes for OWL-RL to be AT RISK for Last Call.
18:45:32 [IanH]
ack JeffP
18:46:14 [schneid]
jeffp: riff try to represent rl in rif
18:46:30 [IanH]
q?
18:46:36 [schneid]
ianh: did they have difficulties?
18:46:45 [IanH]
ack bmotik
18:46:47 [schneid]
jeffp: only problem seems to be datatype mismatch
18:47:30 [IanH]
q?
18:47:37 [schneid]
bmotik: explains criterion for set of datatypes in rl
18:48:14 [sandro]
PROPOSED: Consider the list of datatypes for OWL-RL to be AT RISK for Last Call, saying the list of required datatypes for OWL-RL may be reduced based on feedback about what's available in rules engines.
18:48:18 [IanH]
q?
18:48:54 [alanr]
q?
18:49:08 [schneid]
bmotik: there is no implementor's issue
18:49:10 [IanH]
q?
18:50:08 [IanH]
q?
18:50:13 [schneid]
sandro: rif want's to produce rule reasoners that are automatically rl reasoners [FIXME?]
18:50:29 [IanH]
q?
18:50:38 [IanH]
q?
18:50:44 [alanr]
we are majorly involved with technical discussion here. Do we want to be?
18:50:58 [sandro]
boris: all datatypes are opaque from the perspective of the OWL-RL ruleset
18:51:09 [IanH]
q?
18:51:29 [ivan]
-> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/OWLRL the current work of the RIF group on combining RIF and OWL RL
18:52:00 [sandro]
PROPOSED: Consider the list of datatypes for OWL-RL to be AT RISK for Last Call, saying the list of required datatypes for OWL-RL may be reduced based on feedback
18:52:09 [IanH]
q?
18:52:23 [IanH]
q?
18:52:26 [IanH]
+1
18:52:28 [bmotik]
0
18:52:32 [JeffP]
+1
18:52:33 [baojie]
0
18:52:35 [bcuencagrau]
0
18:52:43 [uli]
+1
18:52:47 [MarkusK_]
+1
18:52:50 [ivan]
+1
18:52:55 [Rinke]
0
18:53:05 [schneid]
0
18:53:08 [sandro]
+1
18:53:21 [ewallace]
+1
18:53:21 [alanr]
+1
18:53:23 [pfps]
+1
18:53:32 [sandro]
RESOLVED: Consider the list of datatypes for OWL-RL to be AT RISK for Last Call, saying the list of required datatypes for OWL-RL may be reduced based on feedback
18:54:02 [sandro]
Boris to do this and add editorial note about RIF coordination.
18:54:20 [schneid]
ivanh: need action for building a TF
18:54:36 [schneid]
s/ivanh/ivan/
18:54:44 [IanH]
q?
18:54:45 [schneid]
ianh: it's urgent to do so
18:55:04 [schneid]
s/urgent/not urgent/
18:55:22 [IanH]
q?
18:56:02 [schneid]
ianh: last point, double check process for publication
18:56:21 [schneid]
ianh: everyone confirmed that finished tomorrow
18:56:21 [IanH]
q?
18:56:36 [ivan]
clap clap clap
18:56:37 [pfps]
I just ran checklinks and validate on all 11 documents - all problems have been sent out
18:56:38 [schneid]
ianh: so we can publish next week?
18:56:39 [JeffP]
good
18:56:49 [sandro]
thanks, peter!
18:57:01 [pfps]
pubrules is a different matter, however :-(
18:57:05 [schneid]
ianh: again, congrats to everyone for the hard work on the documents
18:57:28 [schneid]
Topic: AOB
18:57:29 [IanH]
q?
18:57:33 [Zakim]
-Evan_Wallace
18:57:37 [JeffP]
thanks, bye
18:57:39 [uli]
bye
18:57:41 [alanr]
thanks, Ian
18:57:41 [MarkusK_]
bye!
18:57:42 [schneid]
ianh: we are done!
18:57:43 [Rinke]
thanks! bye
18:57:43 [alanr]
bye
18:57:45 [Zakim]
-uli
18:57:46 [bmotik]
I've added an "at risk" note.
18:57:50 [Zakim]
-JeffP
18:57:50 [Rinke]
+1 to drinks
18:57:51 [Rinke]
bye
18:57:51 [Zakim]
-bcuencagrau
18:57:52 [Zakim]
-alanr
18:57:55 [IanH]
bye
18:57:55 [Zakim]
-Sandro
18:57:56 [Zakim]
-bmotik
18:57:56 [Zakim]
-MarkusK_
18:57:56 [Zakim]
-Achille
18:57:57 [Zakim]
-baojie
18:58:02 [Zakim]
-Rinke
18:58:03 [Zakim]
-Ivan
18:58:04 [bmotik]
bmotik has left #owl
18:58:07 [Zakim]
-Peter_Patel-Schneider
18:58:46 [Zakim]
-??P18
18:59:37 [Zakim]
-IanH
18:59:41 [Zakim]
-schneid
18:59:42 [Zakim]
SW_OWL()1:00PM has ended
18:59:44 [Zakim]
Attendees were IanH, bcuencagrau, Peter_Patel-Schneider, bmotik, schneid, Rinke, Ivan, Sandro, MarkusK_, uli, +1.978.805.aaaa, baojie, Achille, alanr, JeffP, Evan_Wallace
21:01:00 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #owl
21:24:15 [alanr]
alanr has joined #owl