17:41:43 RRSAgent has joined #owl 17:41:43 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/11/26-owl-irc 17:41:50 rrsagent, make log public 17:55:07 Rinke has joined #owl 17:56:39 ivan has joined #owl 17:57:33 SW_OWL()1:00PM has now started 17:57:40 +??P0 17:57:46 schneid has joined #owl 17:57:50 zakim, ??P0 is IanH 17:57:50 +IanH; got it 17:57:54 bcuencagrau has joined #owl 17:58:46 +??P5 17:58:47 RRSAgent, make records public 17:58:52 +??P6 17:58:52 Zakim, ??P15 is me 17:58:53 I already had ??P15 as sylvaing, bcuencagrau 17:59:06 Zakim, ??P6 is me 17:59:06 +bcuencagrau; got it 17:59:13 -bcuencagrau 17:59:20 +Peter_Patel-Schneider 17:59:28 IanH has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2008.11.26/Agenda 17:59:36 +??P6 17:59:37 Zakim, mute me 17:59:38 sorry, bcuencagrau, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 17:59:41 Zakim, ??p6 is me 17:59:41 +bmotik; got it 17:59:44 Zakim, mute me 17:59:44 bmotik should now be muted 17:59:48 +??P7 17:59:50 zakim, who is here? 17:59:50 On the phone I see IanH, ??P5, Peter_Patel-Schneider, bmotik (muted), ??P7 17:59:50 On IRC I see bcuencagrau, schneid, ivan, Rinke, RRSAgent, Zakim, bmotik, IanH, pfps, sandro, trackbot 17:59:58 -??P5 18:00:00 zakim, ??P7 is me 18:00:00 +schneid; got it 18:00:03 +Rinke 18:00:04 zakim, dial ivan-voip 18:00:05 ok, ivan; the call is being made 18:00:07 +Ivan 18:00:07 scribe is here! 18:00:18 zakim, mute me 18:00:18 Ivan should now be muted 18:00:30 +??P5 18:00:34 Zakim, ??P5 is me 18:00:34 +bcuencagrau; got it 18:00:38 Zakim, mute me 18:00:38 bcuencagrau should now be muted 18:00:39 ScribeNick: schneid 18:00:49 baojie has joined #owl 18:01:00 +Sandro 18:01:10 MarkusK_ has joined #owl 18:01:23 uli has joined #owl 18:01:23 zakim, who is here? 18:01:23 On the phone I see IanH, Peter_Patel-Schneider, bmotik (muted), schneid, Rinke, Ivan (muted), bcuencagrau (muted), Sandro 18:01:25 On IRC I see uli, MarkusK_, baojie, bcuencagrau, schneid, ivan, Rinke, RRSAgent, Zakim, bmotik, IanH, pfps, sandro, trackbot 18:01:40 +[IPcaller] 18:01:58 +??P12 18:02:02 Topic: Admin 18:02:06 zakim, ??P12 is me 18:02:06 +uli; got it 18:02:08 zakim, who is here? 18:02:08 On the phone I see IanH, Peter_Patel-Schneider, bmotik (muted), schneid, Rinke, Ivan (muted), bcuencagrau (muted), Sandro, MarkusK_, uli 18:02:10 On IRC I see uli, MarkusK_, baojie, bcuencagrau, schneid, ivan, Rinke, RRSAgent, Zakim, bmotik, IanH, pfps, sandro, trackbot 18:02:12 zakim, mute me 18:02:12 uli should now be muted 18:02:12 Topic: Role Call 18:02:22 Topic: Agenda Amendments 18:02:25 christine has joined #owl 18:02:36 Achille has joined #owl 18:02:41 Ian: added additional points to the agenda 18:02:44 + +1.978.805.aaaa 18:02:49 alanr has joined #owl 18:02:54 Zakim, aaaa is baojie 18:02:54 +baojie; got it 18:02:55 +[IBM] 18:02:56 look fine to me 18:02:57 Topic: Previous Minutes 18:03:03 JeffP has joined #owl 18:03:05 they look OK to me 18:03:07 Zakim, IBM is me 18:03:07 +Achille; got it 18:03:16 +??P18 18:03:18 look ok to me as well 18:03:19 ianh: peter finds them ok 18:03:28 ianh: i also find them pretty ok 18:03:50 +Jonathan_Rees 18:03:58 Topic: Actions 18:04:07 zakim, Jonathan_Rees is me 18:04:07 +alanr; got it 18:04:11 RESOLVED: Accept Previous Minutes (19 November) 18:04:28 SubTopic: rdf:XMLLiteral on Boris, any complaints? 18:04:38 ianh: rdf:XMLLiteral on Boris, any complaints? 18:04:39 q? 18:04:45 +StuartTaylor 18:04:56 zakim, mute me 18:04:56 alanr should now be muted 18:04:57 zakim, StuartTaylor is me 18:04:58 +JeffP; got it 18:05:09 Action 250: 18:05:09 Sorry, bad ACTION syntax 18:05:13 sandro: ok 18:05:22 q? 18:05:23 Action 249: 18:05:23 Sorry, bad ACTION syntax 18:05:33 ianh: I have made it 18:05:50 q? 18:06:04 ianh: any comments on Action 248 18:06:17 Topic: Reviewing and Publishing 18:06:34 ianh: last telecom before publication of LC documents 18:06:46 ianh: thanks to editors 18:06:49 q? 18:06:58 ianh: thinks that the documents are in good shape 18:07:16 q? 18:07:24 ianh: actions also seem to be done, except for those we are talking about today 18:07:36 ianh: let's go through the list of documents 18:07:38 q? 18:08:06 q? 18:08:17 sandro: there are still some typographical etc. problems 18:08:27 q+ 18:08:32 q? 18:08:37 ack schneid 18:09:25 q? 18:09:42 schneid: i will be finished with my editorial checks of the Full document tomorrow evening 18:09:53 ianh: please send then a mail 18:10:00 q? 18:10:19 ianh: there was some issue with rdf:text 18:10:24 q? 18:10:44 ianh: we discussed last week about the primer 18:11:31 q? 18:11:43 Sandro: let's mention what's going on with Primer in the the SOTD of QuickRef 18:12:08 sandro: can go and work on it 18:12:13 ACTION: ian mention what's going on with Primer in the the SOTD of QuickRef 18:12:13 Created ACTION-253 - Mention what's going on with Primer in the the SOTD of QuickRef [on Ian Horrocks - due 2008-12-03]. 18:12:50 SubTopic: Grammar appendices 18:12:56 ewallace has joined #owl 18:13:06 q? 18:13:27 ianh: believes that boris will first fill apdx when everything else will be fine 18:13:32 q? 18:13:38 +Evan_Wallace 18:14:02 ianh: can we go to LC with EdNotes there? 18:14:11 sandro: no problem, no change in design 18:14:12 q? 18:14:18 +q 18:14:21 q? 18:14:25 Zakim, unmute me 18:14:25 bmotik should no longer be muted 18:14:33 ack bmotik 18:14:38 ianh: it's just pasting text from the document 18:14:56 bmotik: can do this tomorrow for Profiles 18:15:06 q? 18:15:40 ACTION: bmotik2 to Create missing grammars in the documents 18:15:40 Created ACTION-254 - Create missing grammars in the documents [on Boris Motik - due 2008-12-03]. 18:15:44 Zakim, mute me 18:15:44 bmotik should now be muted 18:15:45 ianh: otherwise people will have a hard time to work with this document 18:15:50 zakim, unmute me 18:15:50 alanr should no longer be muted 18:15:59 q? 18:16:09 q+ 18:16:12 Let's remove this section 18:16:12 q? 18:16:14 SubTopic: Differences from OWL 1 18:16:16 ack alanr 18:16:34 q? 18:16:36 +1 18:16:40 q? 18:16:41 alanr: a good thing to have such a section there 18:16:47 ack bmotik 18:16:48 q+ 18:16:49 Zakim, unmute me 18:16:53 bmotik was not muted, bmotik 18:17:04 zakim, mute me 18:17:04 alanr should now be muted 18:17:07 ack schneid 18:17:12 q? 18:17:44 q? 18:17:55 +1 to putting it in new features as well 18:18:14 perhaps leave an editors note there 18:18:19 q? 18:18:34 can I remove this section? 18:18:35 q+ 18:18:36 schneid: have started to create an item list on changes to OWL 1 Full, but will finish it not before LC 18:18:41 q? 18:18:53 ianh: what about putting it in special document 18:19:17 q? 18:19:19 schneid: will go in in Full document for the moment, and then move it, if we have such a document 18:19:21 -q 18:19:21 ack bmotik 18:20:47 ianh: (explains to christine) we have currently a section in the Syntax document on changes between OWL 1 and 2, but discuss to move this section to a separate document [FIXME?] 18:20:55 q? 18:21:03 SubTopic: Relative URIs 18:21:06 zakim, unmute me 18:21:06 alanr should no longer be muted 18:21:07 q? 18:21:08 q+ 18:21:14 ack alanr 18:21:30 ianh: believes to understand the state of discussion was that nothing needs to be done 18:21:31 q? 18:21:45 q+ 18:21:51 (referred section of Syntax, from above is: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Syntax#Appendix:_Differences_from_OWL_1_Abstract_Syntax_.28Nonnormative.29 ) 18:22:47 bmotik: realized after email discussion 18:23:19 q? 18:23:21 q+ 18:23:26 ... if shifting documents around, the relative URI will get resolved with something else 18:23:27 ack bmotik 18:23:30 ack alanr 18:24:08 q+ 18:24:14 Alanr: previously said that he only wanted to make sure that use of relative URIs is not outlawed. 18:24:17 q? 18:24:33 ack bmotik 18:24:36 alanr: we don't want to prohibit tools from doing it 18:25:03 q? 18:25:09 bmotik: several syntaxes have a base (RDF syntax, Functional syntax) 18:25:15 q? 18:25:39 q? 18:26:24 q? 18:26:42 q? 18:26:51 bmotik: not mentioned anywhere, it's up to the tools 18:26:59 q? 18:27:15 SubTopic: RIF coordination 18:27:18 q? 18:27:23 q+ 18:27:40 nothing prohibits a tool from reserializating a relative URI found in a document as a relative URI, despite the fact that the structure only has full URIs. 18:27:50 ianh: issues were about datatypes and OWL RL 18:27:54 q? 18:27:57 q+ 18:28:01 ack JeffP 18:28:04 q+ 18:28:21 jeffp: RIF document talks about DLP, not RL 18:28:27 zakim, unmute me 18:28:27 uli should no longer be muted 18:28:29 ack uli 18:28:52 uli: has sent a review about RIF / OWL compatibility 18:29:09 q? 18:29:20 ... point was it would make things easier to replace DLP by RL 18:29:43 q? 18:29:46 ack alanr 18:29:55 zakim, unmute me 18:29:55 uli was not muted, uli 18:29:59 zakim, mute me 18:29:59 uli should now be muted 18:30:23 ianh: understood mails from Uli that RIF should be brought up to date to current OWL development 18:31:09 q? 18:31:25 alanr: we could at AtRisk note in Profiles that we are coordinating with RIF 18:31:39 q+ 18:31:39 q? 18:31:41 q+ 18:31:49 zakim, unmute me 18:31:49 Ivan should no longer be muted 18:32:04 sandro: doubious about this 18:32:07 q+ 18:32:29 q- 18:32:34 q? 18:33:08 q? 18:33:12 alanr: should we consider for something like "the RL rules should be represented in RIF style"? 18:33:21 sandro: we should do 18:33:39 sandro: changing to RIF wouldn't change anything in essence 18:34:05 q? 18:34:15 ack ivan 18:34:34 ivan: at risk idea looks strange to him 18:34:39 q? 18:35:23 ivan: no reason for us to say "at risk" because rif has chance to comment on LC 18:35:34 uli_ has joined #owl 18:35:52 uli_ has joined #owl 18:36:14 +1 to Ivan's proposal 18:36:23 ... (so far) 18:36:23 q? 18:36:29 ivan: it's not necessary to have rif representation in the profiles spec, we can have a note coordinated with the rif group, which translates the RL rules in rif style 18:37:10 q? 18:37:14 q+ to suggest at-risking all DT's not in RIF 18:37:17 ivan: we should not delay our process for this topic 18:37:57 q+ 18:38:06 bmotik: if this is a risky topic, then have a telco with the RIF people, and ask what the differences are to current style for rules 18:38:06 ack bmotik 18:38:27 ack sandro 18:38:27 sandro, you wanted to suggest at-risking all DT's not in RIF 18:38:32 sandro: supports idea by bmotik 18:38:55 q? 18:39:09 q? 18:39:25 q? 18:39:27 q+ 18:39:51 q? 18:39:57 ack alanr 18:40:02 zakim, mute me 18:40:02 Ivan should now be muted 18:40:09 q? 18:40:41 +1 to an editorial note 18:40:48 q? 18:41:01 +1 editorial note that a RIF serialization will come along. 18:41:02 alanr: supports having ednote on talking about coordination with rif 18:41:13 q? 18:41:14 q+ 18:41:14 ... in order to give people a chance to comment on this 18:41:21 ack bmotik 18:41:25 zakim, unmute me 18:41:25 Ivan should no longer be muted 18:41:38 yes 18:41:52 q? 18:41:54 bmotik: datatype issue, rif does not have all these string based datatypes 18:42:16 q? 18:42:20 q+ to complain about "just have to extend...", schedule telecon 18:42:24 ... don't believe that set of datatypes have to be the same between rif and in profiles 18:42:32 q+ 18:42:38 ... because rif has an extension clause, such as owl 18:42:46 ... for adding datatypes 18:42:56 q? 18:43:09 q? 18:43:18 http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/OWLRL 18:43:31 q? 18:43:35 ack ivan 18:43:59 ianh: there are datatypes in rl (real and rational) which are in the problematic area 18:44:03 q? 18:44:12 +q 18:44:13 q- 18:44:31 ... don't understand why certain datatypes are in rl and others not 18:44:46 q? 18:44:53 okay to 'datatypes in OWL RL' 18:45:00 ianh: we only should talk about datatypes in owl rl, not in complete owl 18:45:26 PROPOSED: Consider the list of datatypes for OWL-RL to be AT RISK for Last Call. 18:45:32 ack JeffP 18:46:14 jeffp: riff try to represent rl in rif 18:46:30 q? 18:46:36 ianh: did they have difficulties? 18:46:45 ack bmotik 18:46:47 jeffp: only problem seems to be datatype mismatch 18:47:30 q? 18:47:37 bmotik: explains criterion for set of datatypes in rl 18:48:14 PROPOSED: Consider the list of datatypes for OWL-RL to be AT RISK for Last Call, saying the list of required datatypes for OWL-RL may be reduced based on feedback about what's available in rules engines. 18:48:18 q? 18:48:54 q? 18:49:08 bmotik: there is no implementor's issue 18:49:10 q? 18:50:08 q? 18:50:13 sandro: rif want's to produce rule reasoners that are automatically rl reasoners [FIXME?] 18:50:29 q? 18:50:38 q? 18:50:44 we are majorly involved with technical discussion here. Do we want to be? 18:50:58 boris: all datatypes are opaque from the perspective of the OWL-RL ruleset 18:51:09 q? 18:51:29 -> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/OWLRL the current work of the RIF group on combining RIF and OWL RL 18:52:00 PROPOSED: Consider the list of datatypes for OWL-RL to be AT RISK for Last Call, saying the list of required datatypes for OWL-RL may be reduced based on feedback 18:52:09 q? 18:52:23 q? 18:52:26 +1 18:52:28 0 18:52:32 +1 18:52:33 0 18:52:35 0 18:52:43 +1 18:52:47 +1 18:52:50 +1 18:52:55 0 18:53:05 0 18:53:08 +1 18:53:21 +1 18:53:21 +1 18:53:23 +1 18:53:32 RESOLVED: Consider the list of datatypes for OWL-RL to be AT RISK for Last Call, saying the list of required datatypes for OWL-RL may be reduced based on feedback 18:54:02 Boris to do this and add editorial note about RIF coordination. 18:54:20 ivanh: need action for building a TF 18:54:36 s/ivanh/ivan/ 18:54:44 q? 18:54:45 ianh: it's urgent to do so 18:55:04 s/urgent/not urgent/ 18:55:22 q? 18:56:02 ianh: last point, double check process for publication 18:56:21 ianh: everyone confirmed that finished tomorrow 18:56:21 q? 18:56:36 clap clap clap 18:56:37 I just ran checklinks and validate on all 11 documents - all problems have been sent out 18:56:38 ianh: so we can publish next week? 18:56:39 good 18:56:49 thanks, peter! 18:57:01 pubrules is a different matter, however :-( 18:57:05 ianh: again, congrats to everyone for the hard work on the documents 18:57:28 Topic: AOB 18:57:29 q? 18:57:33 -Evan_Wallace 18:57:37 thanks, bye 18:57:39 bye 18:57:41 thanks, Ian 18:57:41 bye! 18:57:42 ianh: we are done! 18:57:43 thanks! bye 18:57:43 bye 18:57:45 -uli 18:57:46 I've added an "at risk" note. 18:57:50 -JeffP 18:57:50 +1 to drinks 18:57:51 bye 18:57:51 -bcuencagrau 18:57:52 -alanr 18:57:55 bye 18:57:55 -Sandro 18:57:56 -bmotik 18:57:56 -MarkusK_ 18:57:56 -Achille 18:57:57 -baojie 18:58:02 -Rinke 18:58:03 -Ivan 18:58:04