15:49:21 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #forms
15:49:21 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/11/26-forms-irc
15:49:27 <John_Boyer> rrsagent, make log public
15:50:22 <Zakim> +Nick_van_den_Bleeken
15:51:21 <Zakim> +Roger
15:51:39 <nick> scribe: nick
15:51:57 <John_Boyer> Regrets: Leigh, Uli, Erik, Charlie, Keith
15:52:14 <Zakim> +??P6
15:52:25 <John_Boyer> Steven, are you able to join?
15:52:31 <Steven> just coming
15:52:37 <Steven> wrapping up from previous call
15:52:39 <kenneth> kenneth has joined #forms
15:52:42 <Steven> kust a mo'
15:52:45 <Steven> just
15:52:52 <kenneth> zakim, who is here?
15:52:52 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P0, John_Boyer, Nick_van_den_Bleeken, Roger, ??P6
15:52:53 <Zakim> On IRC I see kenneth, RRSAgent, Zakim, nick, John_Boyer, Roger, prb, Steven, trackbot
15:53:08 <kenneth> zakim, i am ??P6
15:53:08 <Zakim> +kenneth; got it
15:53:14 <kenneth> zakim, mute me
15:53:14 <Zakim> kenneth should now be muted
15:53:25 <prb> zakim, I am ??P0
15:53:25 <Zakim> +prb; got it
15:53:27 <kenneth> zakim, unmute me
15:53:27 <Zakim> kenneth should no longer be muted
15:53:29 <nick> zakim, mute me
15:53:29 <Zakim> Nick_van_den_Bleeken should now be muted
15:53:53 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
15:53:54 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:53:55 <Zakim> +Steven
15:55:03 <John_Boyer> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Nov/0047.html
15:56:54 <nick> TOPIC: Two examples using event() in a ref
15:57:28 <nick> ACTION John to fix event() examples in spec
15:57:28 <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - John
15:57:28 <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jkugelma, jboyer)
15:57:47 <nick> TOPIC: Restrictions on W3C team travel
15:58:40 <nick> Steven: the February is fine for me, the June one I propose Amsterdam
15:59:30 <nick> John: Charlie was going to set up the London one in June, but this is questionably this is going to succeed
15:59:47 <nick> John: We should considure 
16:00:11 <nick> s/considure/considerer/
16:00:43 <nick> ... Amsterdam for a location as the June FtF
16:00:59 <nick> TOPIC: xforms-submit-serialize receives empty submission-body value
16:01:01 <Steven> s/derer/der/
16:01:28 <nick> John: Paul could you take an action item to look at John's reply
16:01:51 <John_Boyer> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Nov/0061.html
16:02:14 <nick> ACTION: Paul to look at John's reply for http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Nov/0061.html qnd respond to the list or talk about it on the next call
16:02:14 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Paul
16:02:58 <nick> TOPIC: Resource-less submissions for validation
16:03:05 <John_Boyer> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Nov/0062.html
16:04:28 <nick> John: On the list someone responded that you can do a submission to validate the instance, and you can use the submission-error
16:05:49 <nick> John: You can omit the resource and do a fake submission to do the validation, you get another error when the data isn't valid and when the resource isn't available.
16:06:31 <nick> John: We specify that it is an error if you don't specify the resource in any way you get an error, but we didn't specify which error is send
16:06:46 <nick> John: Does anybody mind fixing the spec?
16:07:00 <nick> John: By specifying it
16:07:31 <nick> Paul: There is a typo in the first step
16:07:46 <nick> John: Is it unrelated to this issue
16:08:28 <nick> Paul: Yes it is unrelated just noticed ti while reading the spec for the issue we're discussing
16:09:33 <nick> ACTION John to fix typo in the first step of submission (udate instead of update)
16:09:33 <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - John
16:09:33 <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jkugelma, jboyer)
16:10:18 <nick> John: Can I add a note about validating the instance with the fake submission with no resource
16:11:06 <nick> Paul: I know in FormsPlayer we validate, before doing anything else, that all required attributes are avialble
16:11:45 <nick> John: Yes, it could require changes to existing implementation because we don't say when the checking occurs
16:11:52 <Roger> s/avialble/available/
16:12:38 <nick> John: If people don't want to specify when the checking of the attributes is done that's also fine for me
16:13:06 <nick> John: But if we specify to do it in step 7 then we support this kind of validation
16:14:10 <nick> ACTION: John to update the spec so it says that resource availability is checked in step 7 of the submission process
16:14:10 <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - John
16:14:10 <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jkugelma, jboyer)
16:14:31 <nick> TOPIC: Javascript implementation of replace all submissions
16:15:09 <nick> John: We need somebody to have a look at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-forms/2008Nov/0008.html and send a reply to the list
16:15:31 <nick> John: Paul can you do this
16:15:37 <nick> Paul: Yes I can
16:17:00 <nick> ACTION Paul to look at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-forms/2008Nov/0008.html and send a reply
16:17:00 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Paul
16:17:39 <nick> TOPIC: Shortname request needed for FPWD
16:18:29 <nick> Steven: John Could you review the e-mail that I've sent related to this 
16:18:47 <nick> Steven: Is everyone happy with the shortname?
16:19:10 <nick> John: Everyone on the phone gave his +1 last week
16:19:50 <nick> Steven: Do we know that it is called XForms Transitional in our charter.
16:24:42 <nick> TOPIC: HTML Validator updates for XForms and "XForms for HTML"
16:25:13 <nick> John: They are modifying the HTML valuator to allow HTML5
16:26:28 <nick> John: There is legislation that only allows valid HTML, using the W3C validator or with a validator that uses the W3C rules plus some extra rules
16:26:59 <Steven> q+
16:27:08 <nick> John: The HTML Validator doesn't allows some of the w3c specs on the web in html
16:27:24 <nick> John: They added MarthML in the past
16:27:56 <nick> John: MathML doesn't works in all browsers, so they can use this against putting XForms in it
16:28:23 <nick> John: And we now have an implentation that runs on all major browsers 
16:28:28 <Steven> be right back
16:28:29 <Zakim> -Steven
16:28:45 <nick> John: The question is what is the process
16:28:53 <nick> zakim, unmute me
16:28:53 <Zakim> Nick_van_den_Bleeken should no longer be muted
16:29:04 <nick> zakim, mute me
16:29:04 <Zakim> Nick_van_den_Bleeken should now be muted
16:29:20 <nick> zakim, unmute me
16:29:20 <Zakim> Nick_van_den_Bleeken should no longer be muted
16:29:41 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
16:29:41 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
16:29:43 <Zakim> +Steven
16:29:53 <Steven> sorry about that
16:30:36 <nick> John: There are alternatives to the one library that runs on all major Browsers that is royalty free 
16:31:41 <nick> Steven: The guy who maintains the validator leaves this week
16:31:53 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2001/03/webdata/xsv
16:32:13 <nick> Steven: The validator works with every dtd, but you can't make dtd for XForms due to the instance element
16:32:35 <nick> Steven: If we create a schema than we can link to the schema validator page
16:32:52 <nick> John: I think this will help a lot
16:33:14 <nick> Steven: Maybe Paul can provide the schema that is used in sidewinder
16:33:17 <John_Boyer> s/help a lot/help a lot with the W3C matrix of specs
16:34:55 <nick> John: The trouble is that people go to the W3C HTML validator, not to an alternative validator 
16:35:21 <nick> John: We need to go to validator.w3.org
16:36:31 <nick> Steven: I think if that is the case then we need to go higher up, saying that it is important for business that the main validator supports the w3c specs 
16:37:10 <nick> John: The XForms attributes we can achieve with dtd
16:37:52 <nick> Steven: W can use this in XHTML modularization then if we have a dtd
16:38:49 <nick> John: You need to specify another dtd for MathML and RDFa
16:39:22 <nick> Steven: HTML5 don't like dtd's and use something else to validate
16:39:42 <nick> John: So we could do the same and use schema
16:40:18 <nick> John: Why is our xforms 1.0 schema not good enough
16:40:45 <nick> Steven: But no one uses plain XForms without a host language
16:41:11 <nick> John: But can't we put the XForms 1.0 and XHTML schema's together
16:41:21 <nick> Steven: This is what sidewinder did
16:41:48 <nick> John: What do we need to do put it on the main validator page
16:42:17 <nick> Steven: It should be fairly easy, we just contact the right persone
16:43:28 <nick> Steven: I really think we should take this higher, maybe even to the AC
16:43:40 <nick> John: What is the escalation process
16:44:05 <nick> Steven: you should contact your AC-rep and send it to the AC-list
16:44:20 <nick> John: Did HTML5 did it like this
16:44:36 <nick> Steven: I think they took a shortcut
16:45:28 <nick> John: I think it is a mistake to put an unfinished spec in the validator, bcz. then you can't change it bcz. it is out there already
16:47:46 <nick> John: The problem is that html 4 strict is always picked, bcz the W3C doesn't says that you can use another dtd
16:49:11 <nick> John: The outcome is that everybody interested should contact their AC-rep
16:49:59 <nick> John: In the meantime we can put on-line just a link that validates XForms+XHTML
16:51:07 <nick> Steven: We can use what is behind http://www.w3.org/2001/03/webdata/xsv to do the validation
16:51:27 <nick> John: Is the validator open source
16:51:47 <nick> Steven: Sort of, the people that own it are leaving next week
16:52:08 <nick> Steven: A good person to talk with is Ian Jacobs
16:52:29 <nick> TOPIC: W3C Spec matrix
16:52:56 <John_Boyer> http://www.w3.org/QA/TheMatrix
16:53:03 <nick> John: There is a spec matrix that includes XForms 1.0 but doesn't includes XForms 1.1
16:54:02 <John_Boyer> http://www.w3.org/QA/
16:54:19 <nick> Steven: I think the QA group isn't active anymore
16:55:26 <nick> John: If they don't maintain W3C Spec matrix they should close it down
16:55:41 <nick> Steven: We could send a message to the communications team
16:57:02 <nick> ACTION: Steven to send a message to the communications team asking to update the W3C Spec matrix at http://www.w3.org/QA/TheMatrix
16:57:02 <trackbot> Created ACTION-500 - Send a message to the communications team asking to update the W3C Spec matrix at http://www.w3.org/QA/TheMatrix [on Steven Pemberton - due 2008-12-03].
16:57:44 <John_Boyer> 28<http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Nov/0043.html>
16:58:15 <nick> ACTION: John contact the validator team, the communications team and IBM's AC-rep about adding XForms + XHTML to the W3C validator
16:58:15 <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - John
16:58:15 <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jkugelma, jboyer)
16:58:42 <John_Boyer> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2008Oct/0011.html
16:58:47 <nick> TOPIC: Last call issue access module (XHTML2)
16:58:56 <nick> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Nov/0043.html
16:59:26 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2008Oct/0011.html
16:59:26 <nick> John: There is maybe a problem with id-resolution related to repeats
17:00:13 <nick> John: The response from the XHTML WG is that we should just put it in our spec, and it shouldn't be said in the access module 
17:01:47 <nick> Steven: The Access module shouldn't deal with repeats, it should be dealt with in the XForms spec bcz XForms introduces repeats. Moreover you have the same problem with css
17:02:50 <nick> John: If you want to do XHTML 2 with XForms, then you specify the id resolution there
17:03:26 <nick> Steven: If XForms expects to work with generic XML languages then XForms should specify this
17:04:39 <nick> John: We do this, maybe Access module can refer non-normative to XForms for the repeat id resolution 
17:05:07 <nick> Steven: No other languages can do it in another way
17:05:16 <nick> John: Ok that is fine for me
17:05:36 <nick> Steven: John, can you hit the response link on the page
17:06:01 <Zakim> -Steven
17:06:05 <Roger> bye
17:06:08 <Zakim> -Roger
17:06:10 <Zakim> -kenneth
17:06:13 <Zakim> -John_Boyer
17:06:20 <Zakim> -prb
17:06:22 <Zakim> -Nick_van_den_Bleeken
17:06:22 <Zakim> HTML_Forms()10:45AM has ended
17:06:23 <Zakim> Attendees were John_Boyer, Nick_van_den_Bleeken, Roger, kenneth, prb, Steven
17:06:33 <John_Boyer> rrsagent, make minutes
17:06:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/26-forms-minutes.html John_Boyer
17:06:37 <John_Boyer> rrsagent, bye
17:06:37 <RRSAgent> I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/26-forms-actions.rdf :
17:06:37 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Paul to look at John's reply for http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Nov/0061.html qnd respond to the list or talk about it on the next call [1]
17:06:37 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/26-forms-irc#T16-02-14
17:06:37 <RRSAgent> ACTION: John to update the spec so it says that resource availability is checked in step 7 of the submission process [2]
17:06:37 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/26-forms-irc#T16-14-10
17:06:37 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Steven to send a message to the communications team asking to update the W3C Spec matrix at http://www.w3.org/QA/TheMatrix [3]
17:06:37 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/26-forms-irc#T16-57-02
17:06:37 <RRSAgent> ACTION: John contact the validator team, the communications team and IBM's AC-rep about adding XForms + XHTML to the W3C validator [4]
17:06:37 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/26-forms-irc#T16-58-15