IRC log of rif on 2008-11-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:58:53 [RRSAgent]
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15:58:53 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/11/25-rif-irc
15:59:04 [csma]
rrsagent, make logs public
15:59:20 [ChrisW]
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15:59:40 [csma]
Meeting: RIF telecon 25 November 2008
15:59:51 [csma]
Chair: Chris Welty
16:00:00 [csma]
Scribe: Adrian Paschke
16:00:17 [csma]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Nov/0165.html
16:00:40 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
16:00:47 [Zakim]
+Sandro
16:00:50 [DaveReynolds]
DaveReynolds has joined #rif
16:00:58 [csma]
csma has changed the topic to: RIF WG telecon 25 November 2008; Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Nov/0165.html
16:01:13 [Zakim]
+??P26
16:01:13 [csma]
zakim, clear agenda
16:01:14 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
16:01:17 [Zakim]
-Sandro
16:01:17 [Zakim]
+Sandro
16:01:30 [csma]
agendum+ admin
16:01:40 [Zakim]
+Dave_Reynolds (was ??P26)
16:01:40 [csma]
agendum+ liaisons
16:01:53 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
16:01:55 [csma]
agendum+ public comments
16:02:03 [csma]
agendum+ review actions
16:02:09 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
16:02:10 [csma]
agendum+ TF updates
16:02:16 [ChrisW]
zakim, ibm is temporarily me
16:02:16 [Zakim]
+ChrisW; got it
16:02:23 [csma]
agendum+ UCR
16:02:33 [csma]
agendum+ publication plan
16:02:38 [csma]
agendum+ DTB
16:02:48 [csma]
agendum+ AOB (pick scribe!)
16:02:50 [josb]
josb has joined #rif
16:03:10 [Zakim]
+josb
16:03:11 [Hassan]
Hassan has joined #rif
16:03:20 [Zakim]
+Hassan_Ait-Kaci
16:03:32 [Zakim]
+??P39
16:03:44 [StellaMitchell]
StellaMitchell has joined #rif
16:03:48 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is here?
16:03:48 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Sandro, Dave_Reynolds, [IPcaller], ChrisW, josb, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), ??P39
16:03:52 [Zakim]
On IRC I see StellaMitchell, Hassan, josb, DaveReynolds, ChrisW, RRSAgent, csma, sandro, trackbot, Zakim
16:04:09 [csma]
zakim, ??P39 is me
16:04:09 [Zakim]
+csma; got it
16:04:15 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
16:04:19 [StellaMitchell]
zakim, ibm is temporarily me
16:04:20 [ChrisW]
zakim, ipcaller is Adrian
16:04:21 [Zakim]
+StellaMitchell; got it
16:04:25 [Zakim]
+Adrian; got it
16:04:58 [ChrisW]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Nov/att-0125/2008-11-18-rif-minutes.htm
16:05:08 [ChrisW]
PROPOSED: accept minutes of last weeks telecon
16:05:17 [ChrisW]
RESOLVED: accept minutes of last weeks telecon
16:05:42 [LeoraMorgenstern]
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16:06:17 [csma]
Regrets: ChanghaiKe, PaulVincent
16:06:20 [ChrisW]
zakim, list agenda
16:06:20 [Zakim]
I see 9 items remaining on the agenda:
16:06:21 [Zakim]
1. admin [from csma]
16:06:21 [Zakim]
2. liaisons [from csma]
16:06:22 [Zakim]
3. public comments [from csma]
16:06:22 [Zakim]
4. review actions [from csma]
16:06:23 [Zakim]
5. TF updates [from csma]
16:06:23 [Zakim]
6. UCR [from csma]
16:06:25 [Zakim]
7. publication plan [from csma]
16:06:27 [Zakim]
8. DTB [from csma]
16:06:29 [Zakim]
9. AOB (pick scribe!) [from csma]
16:06:30 [ChrisW]
zakim, take up item 1
16:06:31 [Zakim]
+LeoraMorgenstern
16:06:35 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "admin" taken up [from csma]
16:06:35 [ChrisW]
zakim, close item 1
16:06:37 [Zakim]
agendum 1, admin, closed
16:06:39 [Zakim]
I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:06:41 [Zakim]
2. liaisons [from csma]
16:06:42 [ChrisW]
zakim, take up item 2
16:06:44 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "liaisons" taken up [from csma]
16:06:56 [Zakim]
+LeoraMorgenstern.a
16:06:58 [csma]
zakim, mute me
16:06:58 [Zakim]
csma should now be muted
16:08:08 [josb]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Nov/0122.html
16:08:32 [josb]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Nov/0110.html
16:10:08 [DaveReynolds]
Jena does cannonicalization I believe and is supposed to implement XMLLiteral correctly.
16:12:24 [josb]
http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-concepts/#section-XMLLiteral
16:12:30 [josb]
http://www.w3.org/TR/2001/REC-xmlschema-2-20010502/
16:12:55 [Gary_Hallmark]
Gary_Hallmark has joined #rif
16:13:34 [Zakim]
+Gary
16:13:34 [Michael_Kifer]
Michael_Kifer has joined #rif
16:14:36 [DaveReynolds]
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/errata#rdf-concepts says Ivan is the editor of the errata document.
16:14:37 [ChrisW]
action: sandro to figure process for RDF errata (re: fixing rdf:xmlliteral)
16:14:37 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-664 - Figure process for RDF errata (re: fixing rdf:xmlliteral) [on Sandro Hawke - due 2008-12-02].
16:14:51 [Zakim]
+ +49.308.387.aaaa
16:15:01 [Zakim]
-Adrian
16:15:04 [Zakim]
+Michael_Kifer
16:15:12 [AxelPolleres]
AxelPolleres has joined #rif
16:15:24 [ChrisW]
zakim, aaaa is Adrian
16:15:24 [Zakim]
+Adrian; got it
16:15:29 [Zakim]
+??P7
16:15:31 [ChrisW]
zakim, take up item 3
16:15:31 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "public comments" taken up [from csma]
16:16:36 [csma]
I did not progress on the RAK comment. Give me 'till Friday EOB.
16:16:47 [csma]
zakim, unmute me
16:16:47 [Zakim]
csma should no longer be muted
16:17:07 [csma]
zakim, mute me
16:17:07 [Zakim]
csma should now be muted
16:17:14 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
16:17:14 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "liaisons" taken up [from csma]
16:17:22 [ChrisW]
zakim, take up item 4
16:17:22 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "review actions" taken up [from csma]
16:17:38 [csma]
I can do the closing etc
16:18:02 [csma]
yes
16:18:09 [csma]
done
16:18:27 [ChrisW]
zakim, list agenda
16:18:27 [Zakim]
I see 7 items remaining on the agenda:
16:18:28 [Zakim]
2. liaisons [from csma]
16:18:28 [Zakim]
4. review actions [from csma]
16:18:29 [Zakim]
5. TF updates [from csma]
16:18:29 [Zakim]
6. UCR [from csma]
16:18:30 [Zakim]
7. publication plan [from csma]
16:18:30 [Zakim]
8. DTB [from csma]
16:18:32 [Zakim]
9. AOB (pick scribe!) [from csma]
16:19:58 [josb]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/IRI_from_IRI
16:20:31 [csma]
zakim, unmute me
16:20:31 [Zakim]
csma should no longer be muted
16:20:57 [csma]
zakim, mute me
16:20:57 [Zakim]
csma should now be muted
16:22:03 [Harold]
Harold has joined #rif
16:22:17 [AxelPolleres]
continued
16:22:37 [csma]
592 is continued
16:23:37 [Hassan]
ctd ...
16:24:55 [Zakim]
+Harold
16:25:36 [csma]
that's a PRD TF action
16:25:46 [csma]
zakim, unmute me
16:25:46 [Zakim]
csma should no longer be muted
16:27:27 [Zakim]
csma should now be muted
16:27:39 [ChrisW]
zakim, take up item 5
16:27:39 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "TF updates" taken up [from csma]
16:30:22 [csma]
zakim, unmute me
16:30:22 [Zakim]
csma should no longer be muted
16:32:26 [Gary]
what do we do with a rule: P(?x - ?y) :- P(?x + ?y)
16:34:47 [DaveReynolds]
Gary - that rule would be unsafe by the current criteria.
16:35:57 [csma]
zakim, mute me
16:35:57 [Zakim]
csma should now be muted
16:35:59 [ChrisW]
zakim, take up item 6
16:35:59 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "UCR" taken up [from csma]
16:36:39 [ChrisW]
*PROPOSED:* Include in UCR new requirement "Internationalized text: RIF must support internationalized text - that is, text that additionally conveys information in terms of a language tag."
16:36:47 [ChrisW]
PROPOSED: Include in UCR new requirement "Internationalized text: RIF must support internationalized text - that is, text that additionally conveys information in terms of a language tag."
16:37:06 [ChrisW]
other requirements: RIF must support inter-dialect interchange
16:37:11 [ChrisW]
other requirements: RIF must support intra-dialect interchange
16:37:51 [ChrisW]
other requirements: RIF must support intra-dialect interchange
16:37:54 [ChrisW]
*PROPOSED:* Include in UCR new requirement "Internationalized text: RIF must support internationalized text - that is, text that additionally conveys information in terms of a language tag."
16:38:49 [ChrisW]
PROPOSED: Include in UCR new requirement "Internationalized text: RIF must support internationalized text" - that is, text that additionally conveys information in terms of a language tag.
16:39:01 [ChrisW]
RESOLVED: Include in UCR new requirement "Internationalized text: RIF must support internationalized text" - that is, text that additionally conveys information in terms of a language tag.
16:40:31 [StellaMitchell]
the conclusion of UCR says:
16:40:34 [StellaMitchell]
Developing criteria for understanding and managing RIF inter-dialect translations is not within the current phase of RIF working group activity.
16:41:00 [StellaMitchell]
the CSF that was removed said: Encouragement of Interoperability: RIF will encourage interoperability, e.g., overlap between dialects and distinguished dialects with maximum overlap.
16:45:56 [ChrisW]
zakim, take up item 7
16:45:56 [Zakim]
agendum 7. "publication plan" taken up [from csma]
16:46:04 [sandro]
sandro has joined #rif
16:47:34 [DaveReynolds]
q+
16:47:41 [csma]
zakim, unmute me
16:47:41 [Zakim]
csma should no longer be muted
16:48:09 [csma]
zakim, mute me
16:48:09 [Zakim]
csma should now be muted
16:49:27 [csma]
q?
16:50:27 [DaveReynolds]
q-
16:50:51 [josb]
q+
16:51:39 [sandro]
MediaWiki:Sidebar
16:52:16 [ChrisW]
ack j
16:54:28 [ChrisW]
action: sandro to look at CORE formatting problem
16:54:28 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-665 - Look at CORE formatting problem [on Sandro Hawke - due 2008-12-02].
16:54:54 [ChrisW]
zakim, take up item 8
16:54:54 [Zakim]
agendum 8. "DTB" taken up [from csma]
16:55:13 [ChrisW]
PROPOSED:* Add equal and not-equal builtins for string in DTB.
16:55:21 [ChrisW]
PROPOSED: Add equal and not-equal builtins for string in DTB.
16:55:52 [ChrisW]
RESOLVED: Add equal and not-equal builtins for string in DTB.
16:55:53 [josb]
0
16:56:01 [ChrisW]
Jos abstains
16:56:03 [AxelPolleres]
"Editor's Note: The need of separate equality, inequality, less-than, greater-than, less-than-or-equal, greater-than-or-equal predicates for strings is still under discussion, cf. ISSUE-67."
16:56:24 [AxelPolleres]
Editor's Note: The need of separate less-than, greater-than, less-than-or-equal, greater-than-or-equal predicates for strings is still under discussion, cf. ISSUE-67.
16:56:56 [ChrisW]
ISSUE-79: Negative guards
16:56:56 [trackbot]
ISSUE-79 Negative guards in DTB - is this another dialect? notes added
16:58:36 [AxelPolleres]
As I understand, dropping neg guards is a problem for OWL-RL
16:58:40 [AxelPolleres]
Dave?
17:00:00 [josb]
we need them for embedding RIF-OWL DLP combinations (sec 8.2.3.2 of SWC) as well
17:00:19 [csma]
zakim, unmute me
17:00:19 [Zakim]
csma should no longer be muted
17:00:24 [AxelPolleres]
I likely wouldn't implement full equality... without, it is probably not an issue.
17:00:47 [DaveReynolds]
I have a preference for keeping them to allow the OWL/RLtranslation to be expressed within Core.
17:00:54 [ChrisW]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Disjunctive_Information_from_Negative_Guards_1
17:02:57 [sandro]
q+
17:04:24 [DaveReynolds]
q+
17:04:36 [sandro]
q-
17:04:48 [csma]
zakim, mute me
17:04:48 [Zakim]
csma should now be muted
17:05:18 [DaveReynolds]
q-
17:05:21 [sandro]
ack DaveReynolds
17:08:03 [AxelPolleres]
I don't see how this could affect core at the moment.
17:08:27 [josb]
I can live with either option
17:11:24 [ChrisW]
ISSUE-80 [12] (Shoudl we extend DTB to include more general builtins)
17:12:19 [Harold]
We could have parameterized dialect schemas, including a "DTB schema" with DTB(NG) being one instantiation (NG = Negative Guard).
17:13:41 [Harold]
We already have the beginnings of this with the conformance clauses.
17:14:44 [sandro]
AxelPolleres, Adrian is scribing off-line because he can't get on IRC.
17:15:24 [sandro]
Wouldn't the parameterized versions replace the fixed ones?
17:16:47 [josb]
I think the negative version is really asking for trouble
17:17:10 [josb]
I think it's better to use a dialect with negation and use that negation
17:17:55 [josb]
q+
17:17:57 [AxelPolleres]
+1 dialect with negation seems to be missing desparately, it could safe all these negative builtins
17:18:22 [AxelPolleres]
pred:hasDatatype
17:19:30 [AxelPolleres]
hasNotDatatype( ?X ?Y ) has no intended domain
17:19:54 [AxelPolleres]
but neither has isNotInteger( ?X )
17:19:59 [DaveReynolds]
q+
17:21:00 [ChrisW]
ack j
17:21:01 [ChrisW]
ack d
17:21:02 [AxelPolleres]
for safe Externals, it hasNotDatatype doesn't seem to be less or more problematic than the existing ones.
17:21:57 [Harold]
Maybe hasNotDatatype should be replaced with a RELATIVE complement, wrt a higher datatype in the type lattice.
17:23:34 [AxelPolleres]
Harold, don't understand what you're after.
17:23:49 [StellaMitchell]
pathalogical
17:23:51 [ChrisW]
action: jos to come up with problematic case for general type pred
17:23:51 [trackbot]
Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - jos
17:23:51 [trackbot]
Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jdebruij2, jderoo)
17:24:45 [ChrisW]
ISSUE-67 [10] (need string predicates string-less-than, etc.)
17:25:52 [Gary]
mild pref for string-less-than, for symmetry with numeric and date
17:26:04 [josb]
q+
17:27:32 [Michael_Kifer]
0
17:29:22 [AxelPolleres]
"<" ">" "!=" ...
17:30:02 [AxelPolleres]
"=" is still possibly troublesome for such a surface syntax?
17:30:47 [Zakim]
-Harold
17:30:49 [Zakim]
-Hassan_Ait-Kaci
17:30:50 [Zakim]
-Michael_Kifer
17:30:51 [Zakim]
-StellaMitchell
17:30:53 [Zakim]
-LeoraMorgenstern.a
17:30:55 [Zakim]
-Gary
17:30:57 [Zakim]
-LeoraMorgenstern
17:30:59 [Zakim]
-AxelPolleres
17:31:01 [Zakim]
-josb
17:31:03 [Zakim]
-Dave_Reynolds
17:31:12 [csma]
rrsagent, ake minutes
17:31:12 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'ake minutes', csma. Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:31:23 [csma]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:31:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/25-rif-minutes.html csma
17:31:37 [csma]
zakim, unmute me
17:31:37 [Zakim]
csma should no longer be muted
17:32:47 [sandro]
paschke@inf.fu-berlin.de
17:33:41 [Zakim]
-Adrian
17:33:47 [Zakim]
-Sandro
17:34:18 [Zakim]
-ChrisW
17:34:20 [Zakim]
-csma
17:34:22 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
17:34:23 [Zakim]
Attendees were Sandro, Dave_Reynolds, ChrisW, josb, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, csma, StellaMitchell, Adrian, LeoraMorgenstern, Gary, +49.308.387.aaaa, Michael_Kifer, AxelPolleres, Harold
17:34:59 [csma]
zakim, list attendees
17:34:59 [Zakim]
sorry, csma, I don't know what conference this is
17:35:13 [csma]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:35:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/25-rif-minutes.html csma
18:00:32 [csma]
csma has left #rif