15:58:53 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rif
15:58:53 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/11/25-rif-irc
15:59:04 <csma> rrsagent, make logs public
15:59:20 <ChrisW> ChrisW has joined #rif
15:59:40 <csma> Meeting: RIF telecon 25 November 2008
15:59:51 <csma> Chair: Chris Welty
16:00:00 <csma> Scribe: Adrian Paschke
16:00:17 <csma> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Nov/0165.html
16:00:40 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
16:00:47 <Zakim> +Sandro
16:00:50 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has joined #rif
16:00:58 <csma> csma has changed the topic to: RIF WG telecon 25 November 2008; Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Nov/0165.html
16:01:13 <Zakim> +??P26
16:01:13 <csma> zakim, clear agenda
16:01:14 <Zakim> agenda cleared
16:01:17 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:01:17 <Zakim> +Sandro
16:01:30 <csma> agendum+ admin
16:01:40 <Zakim> +Dave_Reynolds (was ??P26)
16:01:40 <csma> agendum+ liaisons
16:01:53 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:01:55 <csma> agendum+ public comments
16:02:03 <csma> agendum+ review actions
16:02:09 <Zakim> +[IBM]
16:02:10 <csma> agendum+ TF updates
16:02:16 <ChrisW> zakim, ibm is temporarily me
16:02:16 <Zakim> +ChrisW; got it
16:02:23 <csma> agendum+ UCR
16:02:33 <csma> agendum+ publication plan
16:02:38 <csma> agendum+ DTB
16:02:48 <csma> agendum+ AOB (pick scribe!)
16:02:50 <josb> josb has joined #rif
16:03:10 <Zakim> +josb
16:03:11 <Hassan> Hassan has joined #rif
16:03:20 <Zakim> +Hassan_Ait-Kaci
16:03:32 <Zakim> +??P39
16:03:44 <StellaMitchell> StellaMitchell has joined #rif
16:03:48 <ChrisW> zakim, who is here?
16:03:48 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro, Dave_Reynolds, [IPcaller], ChrisW, josb, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), ??P39
16:03:52 <Zakim> On IRC I see StellaMitchell, Hassan, josb, DaveReynolds, ChrisW, RRSAgent, csma, sandro, trackbot, Zakim
16:04:09 <csma> zakim, ??P39 is me
16:04:09 <Zakim> +csma; got it
16:04:15 <Zakim> +[IBM]
16:04:19 <StellaMitchell> zakim, ibm is temporarily me
16:04:20 <ChrisW> zakim, ipcaller is Adrian
16:04:21 <Zakim> +StellaMitchell; got it
16:04:25 <Zakim> +Adrian; got it
16:04:58 <ChrisW> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Nov/att-0125/2008-11-18-rif-minutes.htm
16:05:08 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: accept minutes of last weeks telecon
16:05:17 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept minutes of last weeks telecon
16:05:42 <LeoraMorgenstern> LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
16:06:17 <csma> Regrets: ChanghaiKe, PaulVincent
16:06:20 <ChrisW> zakim, list agenda
16:06:20 <Zakim> I see 9 items remaining on the agenda:
16:06:21 <Zakim> 1. admin [from csma]
16:06:21 <Zakim> 2. liaisons [from csma]
16:06:22 <Zakim> 3. public comments [from csma]
16:06:22 <Zakim> 4. review actions [from csma]
16:06:23 <Zakim> 5. TF updates [from csma]
16:06:23 <Zakim> 6. UCR [from csma]
16:06:25 <Zakim> 7. publication plan [from csma]
16:06:27 <Zakim> 8. DTB [from csma]
16:06:29 <Zakim> 9. AOB (pick scribe!) [from csma]
16:06:30 <ChrisW> zakim, take up item 1
16:06:31 <Zakim> +LeoraMorgenstern
16:06:35 <Zakim> agendum 1. "admin" taken up [from csma]
16:06:35 <ChrisW> zakim, close item 1
16:06:37 <Zakim> agendum 1, admin, closed
16:06:39 <Zakim> I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:06:41 <Zakim> 2. liaisons [from csma]
16:06:42 <ChrisW> zakim, take up item 2
16:06:44 <Zakim> agendum 2. "liaisons" taken up [from csma]
16:06:56 <Zakim> +LeoraMorgenstern.a
16:06:58 <csma> zakim, mute me
16:06:58 <Zakim> csma should now be muted
16:08:08 <josb> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Nov/0122.html
16:08:32 <josb> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Nov/0110.html
16:10:08 <DaveReynolds> Jena does cannonicalization I believe and is supposed to implement XMLLiteral correctly. 
16:12:24 <josb> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-concepts/#section-XMLLiteral
16:12:30 <josb> http://www.w3.org/TR/2001/REC-xmlschema-2-20010502/
16:12:55 <Gary_Hallmark> Gary_Hallmark has joined #rif
16:13:34 <Zakim> +Gary
16:13:34 <Michael_Kifer> Michael_Kifer has joined #rif
16:14:36 <DaveReynolds> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/errata#rdf-concepts says Ivan is the editor of the errata document.
16:14:37 <ChrisW> action: sandro to figure process for RDF errata (re: fixing rdf:xmlliteral)
16:14:37 <trackbot> Created ACTION-664 - Figure process for RDF errata (re: fixing rdf:xmlliteral) [on Sandro Hawke - due 2008-12-02].
16:14:51 <Zakim> + +49.308.387.aaaa
16:15:01 <Zakim> -Adrian
16:15:04 <Zakim> +Michael_Kifer
16:15:12 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has joined #rif
16:15:24 <ChrisW> zakim, aaaa is Adrian
16:15:24 <Zakim> +Adrian; got it
16:15:29 <Zakim> +??P7
16:15:31 <ChrisW> zakim, take up item 3
16:15:31 <Zakim> agendum 3. "public comments" taken up [from csma]
16:16:36 <csma> I did not progress on the RAK comment. Give me 'till Friday EOB.
16:16:47 <csma> zakim, unmute me
16:16:47 <Zakim> csma should no longer be muted
16:17:07 <csma> zakim, mute me
16:17:07 <Zakim> csma should now be muted
16:17:14 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
16:17:14 <Zakim> agendum 2. "liaisons" taken up [from csma]
16:17:22 <ChrisW> zakim, take up item 4
16:17:22 <Zakim> agendum 4. "review actions" taken up [from csma]
16:17:38 <csma> I can do the closing etc
16:18:02 <csma> yes
16:18:09 <csma> done
16:18:27 <ChrisW> zakim, list agenda
16:18:27 <Zakim> I see 7 items remaining on the agenda:
16:18:28 <Zakim> 2. liaisons [from csma]
16:18:28 <Zakim> 4. review actions [from csma]
16:18:29 <Zakim> 5. TF updates [from csma]
16:18:29 <Zakim> 6. UCR [from csma]
16:18:30 <Zakim> 7. publication plan [from csma]
16:18:30 <Zakim> 8. DTB [from csma]
16:18:32 <Zakim> 9. AOB (pick scribe!) [from csma]
16:19:58 <josb> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/IRI_from_IRI
16:20:31 <csma> zakim, unmute me
16:20:31 <Zakim> csma should no longer be muted
16:20:57 <csma> zakim, mute me
16:20:57 <Zakim> csma should now be muted
16:22:03 <Harold> Harold has joined #rif
16:22:17 <AxelPolleres> continued
16:22:37 <csma> 592 is continued
16:23:37 <Hassan> ctd ... 
16:24:55 <Zakim> +Harold
16:25:36 <csma> that's a PRD TF action
16:25:46 <csma> zakim, unmute me
16:25:46 <Zakim> csma should no longer be muted
16:27:26 <csma> zakim, mute me
16:27:27 <Zakim> csma should now be muted
16:27:39 <ChrisW> zakim, take up item 5
16:27:39 <Zakim> agendum 5. "TF updates" taken up [from csma]
16:30:22 <csma> zakim, unmute me
16:30:22 <Zakim> csma should no longer be muted
16:32:26 <Gary> what do we do with a rule: P(?x - ?y) :- P(?x + ?y)
16:34:47 <DaveReynolds> Gary - that rule would be unsafe by the current criteria.
16:35:57 <csma> zakim, mute me
16:35:57 <Zakim> csma should now be muted
16:35:59 <ChrisW> zakim, take up item 6
16:35:59 <Zakim> agendum 6. "UCR" taken up [from csma]
16:36:39 <ChrisW> *PROPOSED:* Include in UCR new requirement "Internationalized text: RIF must support internationalized text - that is, text that additionally conveys information in terms of a language tag."
16:36:47 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: Include in UCR new requirement "Internationalized text: RIF must support internationalized text - that is, text that additionally conveys information in terms of a language tag."
16:37:06 <ChrisW> other requirements: RIF must support inter-dialect interchange
16:37:11 <ChrisW> other requirements: RIF must support intra-dialect interchange
16:37:51 <ChrisW> other requirements: RIF must support intra-dialect interchange
16:37:54 <ChrisW> *PROPOSED:* Include in UCR new requirement "Internationalized text: RIF must support internationalized text - that is, text that additionally conveys information in terms of a language tag."
16:38:49 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: Include in UCR new requirement "Internationalized text: RIF must support internationalized text" - that is, text that additionally conveys information in terms of a language tag.
16:39:01 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: Include in UCR new requirement "Internationalized text: RIF must support internationalized text" - that is, text that additionally conveys information in terms of a language tag.
16:40:31 <StellaMitchell> the conclusion of UCR says:
16:40:34 <StellaMitchell> Developing criteria for understanding and managing RIF inter-dialect translations is not within the current phase of RIF working group activity.
16:41:00 <StellaMitchell> the CSF that was removed said: Encouragement of Interoperability: RIF will encourage interoperability, e.g., overlap between dialects and distinguished dialects with maximum overlap.
16:45:56 <ChrisW> zakim, take up item 7
16:45:56 <Zakim> agendum 7. "publication plan" taken up [from csma]
16:46:04 <sandro> sandro has joined #rif
16:47:34 <DaveReynolds> q+
16:47:41 <csma> zakim, unmute me
16:47:41 <Zakim> csma should no longer be muted
16:48:09 <csma> zakim, mute me
16:48:09 <Zakim> csma should now be muted
16:49:27 <csma> q?
16:50:27 <DaveReynolds> q-
16:50:51 <josb> q+
16:51:39 <sandro> MediaWiki:Sidebar
16:52:16 <ChrisW> ack j
16:54:28 <ChrisW> action: sandro to look at CORE formatting problem
16:54:28 <trackbot> Created ACTION-665 - Look at CORE formatting problem [on Sandro Hawke - due 2008-12-02].
16:54:54 <ChrisW> zakim, take up item 8
16:54:54 <Zakim> agendum 8. "DTB" taken up [from csma]
16:55:13 <ChrisW> PROPOSED:* Add equal and not-equal builtins for string in DTB.
16:55:21 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: Add equal and not-equal builtins for string in DTB.
16:55:52 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: Add equal and not-equal builtins for string in DTB.
16:55:53 <josb> 0
16:56:01 <ChrisW> Jos abstains
16:56:03 <AxelPolleres> "Editor's Note: The need of separate equality, inequality, less-than, greater-than, less-than-or-equal, greater-than-or-equal predicates for strings is still under discussion, cf. ISSUE-67."
16:56:24 <AxelPolleres> Editor's Note: The need of separate less-than, greater-than, less-than-or-equal, greater-than-or-equal predicates for strings is still under discussion, cf. ISSUE-67.
16:56:56 <ChrisW> ISSUE-79: Negative guards
16:56:56 <trackbot> ISSUE-79 Negative guards in DTB - is this another dialect? notes added
16:58:36 <AxelPolleres> As I understand, dropping neg guards is a problem for OWL-RL
16:58:40 <AxelPolleres> Dave?
17:00:00 <josb> we need them for embedding RIF-OWL DLP combinations (sec 8.2.3.2 of SWC) as well
17:00:19 <csma> zakim, unmute me
17:00:19 <Zakim> csma should no longer be muted
17:00:24 <AxelPolleres> I likely wouldn't implement full equality... without, it is probably not an issue.
17:00:47 <DaveReynolds> I have a preference for keeping them to allow the OWL/RLtranslation to be expressed within Core.
17:00:54 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Disjunctive_Information_from_Negative_Guards_1
17:02:57 <sandro> q+
17:04:24 <DaveReynolds> q+
17:04:36 <sandro> q-
17:04:48 <csma> zakim, mute me
17:04:48 <Zakim> csma should now be muted
17:05:18 <DaveReynolds> q-
17:05:21 <sandro> ack DaveReynolds 
17:08:03 <AxelPolleres> I don't see how this could affect core at the moment.
17:08:27 <josb> I can live with either option
17:11:24 <ChrisW> ISSUE-80 [12] (Shoudl we extend DTB to include more general builtins)
17:12:19 <Harold> We could have parameterized dialect schemas, including a  "DTB schema" with DTB(NG) being one instantiation (NG = Negative Guard).
17:13:41 <Harold> We already have the beginnings of this with the conformance clauses.
17:14:44 <sandro> AxelPolleres, Adrian is scribing off-line because he can't get on IRC.
17:15:24 <sandro> Wouldn't the parameterized versions replace the fixed ones?
17:16:47 <josb> I think the negative version is really asking for trouble
17:17:10 <josb> I think it's better to use a dialect with negation and use that negation
17:17:55 <josb> q+
17:17:57 <AxelPolleres> +1 dialect with negation seems to be missing desparately, it could safe all these negative builtins
17:18:22 <AxelPolleres>  pred:hasDatatype
17:19:30 <AxelPolleres> hasNotDatatype( ?X ?Y ) has no intended domain
17:19:54 <AxelPolleres> but neither has isNotInteger( ?X )
17:19:59 <DaveReynolds> q+
17:21:00 <ChrisW> ack j
17:21:01 <ChrisW> ack d
17:21:02 <AxelPolleres> for safe Externals, it  hasNotDatatype doesn't seem to be less or more problematic than the existing ones.
17:21:57 <Harold> Maybe hasNotDatatype should be replaced with a RELATIVE complement, wrt a higher datatype in the type lattice.
17:23:34 <AxelPolleres> Harold, don't understand what you're after.
17:23:49 <StellaMitchell> pathalogical
17:23:51 <ChrisW> action: jos to come up with problematic case for general type pred
17:23:51 <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - jos
17:23:51 <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jdebruij2, jderoo)
17:24:45 <ChrisW> ISSUE-67 [10] (need string predicates string-less-than, etc.)
17:25:52 <Gary> mild pref for string-less-than, for symmetry with numeric and date
17:26:04 <josb> q+
17:27:32 <Michael_Kifer> 0
17:29:22 <AxelPolleres>  "<" ">" "!=" ...
17:30:02 <AxelPolleres> "=" is still possibly troublesome for such a surface syntax?
17:30:47 <Zakim> -Harold
17:30:49 <Zakim> -Hassan_Ait-Kaci
17:30:50 <Zakim> -Michael_Kifer
17:30:51 <Zakim> -StellaMitchell
17:30:53 <Zakim> -LeoraMorgenstern.a
17:30:55 <Zakim> -Gary
17:30:57 <Zakim> -LeoraMorgenstern
17:30:59 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres
17:31:01 <Zakim> -josb
17:31:03 <Zakim> -Dave_Reynolds
17:31:12 <csma> rrsagent, ake minutes
17:31:12 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'ake minutes', csma.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:31:23 <csma> rrsagent, make minutes
17:31:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/25-rif-minutes.html csma
17:31:37 <csma> zakim, unmute me
17:31:37 <Zakim> csma should no longer be muted
17:32:47 <sandro> paschke@inf.fu-berlin.de
17:33:41 <Zakim> -Adrian
17:33:47 <Zakim> -Sandro
17:34:18 <Zakim> -ChrisW
17:34:20 <Zakim> -csma
17:34:22 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
17:34:23 <Zakim> Attendees were Sandro, Dave_Reynolds, ChrisW, josb, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, csma, StellaMitchell, Adrian, LeoraMorgenstern, Gary, +49.308.387.aaaa, Michael_Kifer, AxelPolleres, Harold
17:34:59 <csma> zakim, list attendees
17:34:59 <Zakim> sorry, csma, I don't know what conference this is
17:35:13 <csma> rrsagent, make minutes
17:35:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/25-rif-minutes.html csma
18:00:32 <csma> csma has left #rif