19:30:44 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg
19:30:44 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-svg-irc
19:30:46 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
19:30:46 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #svg
19:30:48 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
19:30:48 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG()2:30PM scheduled to start now
19:30:49 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
19:30:49 <trackbot> Date: 20 November 2008
19:32:54 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()2:30PM has now started
19:32:56 <Zakim> +Shepazu
19:33:02 <Zakim> +??P1
19:33:04 <heycam> Zakim, ??P1 is me
19:33:04 <Zakim> +heycam; got it
19:33:20 <NH> NH has joined #svg
19:34:04 <Zakim> +??P2
19:34:14 <anthony> Zakim, ??P2 is me
19:34:14 <Zakim> +anthony; got it
19:35:02 <shepazu> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008OctDec/0391.html
19:35:17 <shepazu> Chair: Doug Schepers
19:35:59 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
19:36:41 <shepazu> Zakim, [IPcaller] is NH 
19:36:41 <Zakim> +NH; got it
19:37:28 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #svg
19:38:23 <Zakim> +ChrisL
19:39:21 <shepazu> SVG 1.2 has entered PR phase (yesterday). Announcement: http://www.w3.org/News/2008#item192
19:40:17 <shepazu> Zakim, pick a victim
19:40:17 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Shepazu
19:40:27 <shepazu> Zakim, pick a victim
19:40:27 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Shepazu
19:40:30 <shepazu> Zakim, pick a victim
19:40:30 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Shepazu
19:40:33 <shepazu> Zakim, pick a victim
19:40:33 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Shepazu
19:40:34 <ChrisL2> ChrisL2 has joined #svg
19:40:36 <shepazu> Zakim, pick a victim
19:40:36 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Shepazu
19:40:42 <shepazu> Zakim, pick a victim
19:40:42 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose heycam
19:40:50 <ChrisL2> rrsagent, here
19:40:50 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-svg-irc#T19-40-50
19:40:53 <ChrisL2> rrsagent, pointer?
19:40:53 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-svg-irc#T19-40-53
19:40:55 <ChrisL2> zakim, who is here?
19:40:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see heycam, Shepazu, anthony, NH, ChrisL
19:40:56 <Zakim> On IRC I see ChrisL2, ChrisL, NH, Zakim, RRSAgent, anthony, heycam, shepazu, trackbot, ed_work
19:41:06 <heycam> Scribe: Cameron
19:41:09 <heycam> ScribeNick: heycam
19:41:25 <heycam> Topic: Marketing SVG
19:41:44 <heycam> DS: because we're going to recommendation hopefully some time in mid december
19:42:10 <heycam> DS: we're going to make a "press release"-like press release, but we're not going to spend the money to send it out over the wire
19:42:20 <heycam> DS: since it's not likely to get picked up by news agencies in december
19:42:50 <heycam> DS: we think it would be better to have one in january
19:42:58 <heycam> DS: we don't want to hold back the spec for obvious reasons
19:43:18 <heycam> DS: we need some news in order to have a reason to have a press release
19:43:34 <heycam> DS: things like "going to rec"
19:43:39 <ChrisL2> zakim, who is noisy?
19:43:54 <Zakim> ChrisL2, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: anthony (35%), Shepazu (15%)
19:44:05 <ChrisL2> zakim, mute anthony
19:44:08 <heycam> DS: in this case maybe a good press release would be "last month we went to rec and we have gotten these other standards bodies - MAE, JIS, ITU - who are interested in ratifying svg as part of their standards as well"
19:44:10 <Zakim> anthony should now be muted
19:44:17 <heycam> DS: to show wider support for svg
19:44:29 <heycam> DS: thoughts on delaying a press release until jan/feb?
19:44:41 <heycam> CL: if we have to do that, then we might put out an improved test suite, since we've only snapshotted it
19:44:46 <heycam> CL: plus more implementation report
19:44:57 <heycam> CL: that'd be (faintly) newsworthy
19:45:15 <heycam> CL: we'd've demonstrated it's interoperable
19:45:28 <heycam> DS: might be good to pull in the results from other browsers, too
19:45:39 <heycam> DS: e.g. chrome, safari, firefox
19:46:35 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #svg
19:47:27 <heycam> DS: we'd prepare all the things required for a press release
19:47:32 <heycam> CL: but it'd get faxed or whatever
19:47:45 <heycam> NH: i think that's not a problem for ikivo, but i'll check with marketing
19:47:56 <heycam> Zakim, unmute anthony
19:47:56 <Zakim> anthony should no longer be muted
19:47:58 <ChrisL> so there would be the web version, for going to rec; and a newswire update on it, in january
19:48:15 <heycam> AG: fujisawa-san will have to ask his marketing people
19:48:27 <heycam> DS: please get back to me about that, and with testimonials
19:48:34 <heycam> DS: we'll reuse those testimonials in the actual press release
19:51:03 <heycam> DS: over the next few weeks i'll be sending ideas to the list and inviting feedback on testimonials, which we can talk about later
19:51:12 <heycam> Topic: Review of the Selectors API spec
19:51:18 <heycam> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Nov/0057.html
19:52:06 <heycam> DS: the thing erik noted was they've removed support for selecting on namespace
19:52:28 <heycam> DS: this means if you have mixed svg/xhtml stuff, you wouldn't be able to select only on svg:a
19:52:49 <heycam> CL: given that css wg has identified css namespaces as a stable spec, i think we could argue on that basis that it should be supported
19:53:11 <heycam> DS: we can't ignore the fact that namespaces exist
19:54:52 <heycam> DS: we should also review the spec for anything else
19:55:00 <anthony_> anthony_ has joined #svg
19:55:13 <heycam> CL: someone to do the review?
19:55:51 <heycam> ACTION: Erik to review the selectors-api LCWD
19:55:51 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2347 - Review the selectors-api LCWD [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-11-27].
19:55:55 <heycam> ACTION: Doug to review the selectors-api LCWD
19:55:57 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2348 - Review the selectors-api LCWD [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-11-27].
19:56:20 <heycam> ACTION: Cameron and Doug to test simultaneous actions
19:56:20 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2349 - And Doug to test simultaneous actions [on Cameron McCormack - due 2008-11-27].
19:56:28 <heycam> trackbot, close ACTION-2349
19:56:28 <trackbot> ACTION-2349 And Doug to test simultaneous actions closed
19:56:43 <heycam> AG: when should comments be in by?
19:56:45 <heycam> DS: december 12
19:57:06 <heycam> ACTION: Anthony to review the selectors-api LCWD
19:57:07 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2350 - Review the selectors-api LCWD [on Anthony Grasso - due 2008-11-27].
19:58:24 <heycam> Topic: SVG 1.1 Errata
19:59:02 <heycam> AG: due to tiny i haven't done much on errata lately
19:59:09 <heycam> AG: i've started integrating the proposed errata into the 1.1 spec
19:59:28 <anthony>  - Linking in a text environment
19:59:30 <anthony>  - feFlood in attribute
19:59:32 <anthony>  - Filter subregion
19:59:33 <anthony>  - Cleaning up the wording of the underlying value being the identity transform
19:59:35 <anthony>  - Start and end incorrectly described for text
19:59:36 <anthony>  - Typo 'effect' instead of 'affect'
19:59:38 <anthony>  - Incorrect reference to solidColor element
19:59:40 <anthony>  - Capturing pointer-events with a zero opacity mask
19:59:48 <heycam> AG: these are the ones that have been integrated
19:59:56 <heycam> DS: how many more are there?
20:01:37 <anthony> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/errata/errata.xml
20:02:29 <heycam> CL: we should publish new errata with any new ones, leave it for a bit, then publish a 2ed of 1.1 that includes all the errata we have to date
20:03:01 <heycam> AG: there's been a link from the 1.1F spec to the errata for a while
20:03:06 <anthony> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/
20:03:28 <heycam> AG: there are still 14 errata we need to go over, draft ones
20:04:05 <heycam> CL: we need to get the draft ones up to proposed
20:04:26 <heycam> DS: how about next tuesday we start going over these draft proposals
20:04:30 <heycam> s/proposals/errata/
20:05:27 <heycam> CM: some of these errata are just placeholders and haven't been done yet
20:06:22 <NH> NH has joined #svg
20:06:29 <heycam> AG: this document is in the old repo, we should move it over to the new one
20:07:16 <heycam> AG: the errata document covers all specs, so i'll have to pull the bits out that are related to 1.1F
20:07:34 <heycam> ACTION: Anthony to extract out the 1.1F errata items and add them to the public repo
20:07:34 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2351 - Extract out the 1.1F errata items and add them to the public repo [on Anthony Grasso - due 2008-11-27].
20:08:07 <heycam> Topic: Test suite
20:08:35 <heycam> CL: we can package up what we have (that we used for the CR period) and that's the latest release
20:08:48 <heycam> CL: or we can sit back a bit and figure out which of the drafts we can make work and push those forward
20:09:30 <heycam> CL: we've said "here's a beta, here's a beta" so it's probably good to publish something final with what we've used for testing implementations
20:09:52 <heycam> NH: we found some minor errors in the tests
20:10:01 <heycam> NH: what should we do with these?
20:10:08 <heycam> CL: raise an issue on each one and we'll discuss it
20:13:15 <heycam> DS: we should look at an improved test harness
20:13:16 <ChrisL3> ChrisL3 has joined #svg
20:13:24 <heycam> CL: i'd be interested to see that
20:13:34 <heycam> CL: the existing one [MWI one] assumes that html forms are available
20:13:55 <heycam> DS: we can make an svg framework
20:13:58 <heycam> NH: that'd be good i think
20:14:04 <heycam> DS: might need changes to the tests themselves
20:14:46 <heycam> CL: given that the forms part is just for reporting test failure, you could postURL() and some scripts to do this
20:14:53 <heycam> DS: or an <a>
20:15:36 <heycam> DS: so we'd need something to transform the tests into this framework
20:16:05 <heycam> DS: we should have criteria for making tests incredibly obvious for when a test doesn't pass
20:16:25 <heycam> DS: like e.g., if at all possible, the background of the test should be red if it does not pass
20:16:32 <heycam> AG: in some cases this can't be done
20:16:36 <heycam> DS: but whereever possible
20:16:44 <heycam> DS: if not, then do whatever needs to be done
20:16:48 <heycam> DS: so many of our tests are visual
20:17:17 <heycam> DS: sometimes dr olaf has made tests where something is a certain shape/dimensions and red, and overlap a green one with that
20:17:27 <heycam> AG: so using red as an indication for failure
20:17:51 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #svg
20:17:53 <heycam> AG: i think it's a good idea
20:18:05 <heycam> CM: i don't think it's a huge deal to require that the tester can distinguish red from green
20:18:42 <heycam> CM: i like the idea of automating test criteria checking and making tests report this via a colour
20:18:52 <heycam> CL: i'd be worried about making existing tests require scripting
20:19:09 <heycam> CL: for example a simple test for bold text, you'd need to script to look through the dom etc.
20:19:22 <heycam> DS: but for those tests already using scripting we can take advantage of this fact
20:19:53 <heycam> DS: for tests that need a reference image, instead of making a snapshot of the entire test, we should include an image within the test itself to show what something should look like
20:20:12 <heycam> NH: i'd like explanatory text in the slide itself
20:20:46 <heycam> DS: so yes we should write some guidelines, and use these as part of judging whether these tests are added to the test suite
20:20:56 <heycam> DS: some tests will have to be really complicated, but having smaller tests would also be good
20:21:10 <heycam> CL: if you have smaller tests you have more of them, which might be a disadvantage
20:21:31 <heycam> CL: a test should say first what it's testing, then whether it passes, then it should give all the details of who it's doing the testing
20:21:58 <heycam> DS: i agree, but would put the pass criteria first
20:22:09 <heycam> AG: in the template there should be a spot to fill in the pass criteria
20:22:11 <heycam> DS: that's a good idea
20:22:36 <heycam> DS: we should also include links to the spec that describe what's being tested
20:23:03 <heycam> AG: the xslt for generating the test suite could easily pull out fields like this
20:23:18 <heycam> DS: this'd also help when judging whether the test is good or not
20:24:37 <shepazu> ...and for test coverage
20:25:07 <heycam> DS: what was svggen/ for?
20:25:22 <heycam> CL: it has test files stripped from non-SVG namespace
20:25:53 <heycam> CL: there were many issues with CVS revisions in the test slides
20:26:05 <heycam> CL: we should make the script not generate the svggen/, and make the harness not refer to svggen/
20:27:21 <heycam> ACTION: Erik to get rid of svggen/
20:27:21 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2352 - Get rid of svggen/ [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-11-27].
20:28:31 <heycam> DS: in france, we discussed having a test suite generator
20:28:54 <heycam> DS: allowing people to upload svg files and it would generate a test based on the template and that uploaded document
20:29:34 <heycam> AG: some sort of user form you'd fill out, and fill in the fields, and for the test case content just paste in the svg into a form field
20:29:56 <heycam> DS: and be able to upload an image
20:30:28 <heycam> CL: why do we want to do this?
20:30:42 <heycam> DS: it solves the problem of inconsistency in test files
20:30:57 <heycam> DS: this'd be a simple additional way to make tests, and for the public to submit tests
20:31:16 <heycam> AG: public wouldn't necessarily know the template
20:31:33 <heycam> DS: giving them (or me) fields to fill out, makes me more inclined to make a test
20:31:46 <heycam> DS: might not be the preferred way for everyone to make tests, but for some it will
20:32:08 <anthony_> anthony_ has joined #svg
20:32:18 <heycam> DS: we know that these tests will conform to the template
20:32:26 <heycam> AG: from my pov i think it's a good idea
20:32:48 <heycam> DS: the reason you would want to base64 included images is that you won't lose external resources
20:32:59 <heycam> AG: for some cases we'll still need external resources
20:33:17 <heycam> CL: might make it harder to edit embedded base64 resources
20:33:33 <heycam> CL: but it also helps the issue of editing an external resource and not knowing the implications for all tests that refer to it
20:33:46 <NH> NH has joined #svg
20:33:47 <heycam> DS: i'll mock it up and send it to the list
20:34:26 <ChrisL4> ChrisL4 has joined #svg
20:35:18 <heycam> Topic: SVG F2F
20:36:11 <heycam> CL: for each person who's a team contact, they get to go to one f2f meeting per year 
20:36:20 <heycam> DS: and this is retroactive, so we've already had ours
20:36:30 <heycam> CL: so we have zero left until the middle of next year
20:37:56 <ChrisL4> although, if a f2f is held local to a w3c tem person they do get to go as there is no flight/hotel . So doug could have one in RTP for example or i could do one in France
20:38:47 <heycam> CL: it is feasible for me to dial in to australia for 8 hours
20:39:00 <heycam> AG: i wanted to know how many people are attending
20:39:08 <heycam> AG: could we get the wbs form up?
20:39:15 <heycam> AG: 16-20 february
20:39:39 <heycam> DS: in the worst case chris and i can dial in
20:39:44 <heycam> AG: i'm looking into quotes at the moment
20:41:38 <heycam> AG: that's 19th jan, and erik said he'd prefer to have it later (in feb)
20:41:52 <heycam> ACTION: Doug to put up the wbs form for the Sydney F2F
20:41:52 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2353 - Put up the wbs form for the Sydney F2F [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-11-27].
20:42:06 <anthony> http://www.foms-workshop.org/foms2009/pmwiki.php/Main/CFP)
20:42:51 <heycam> DS: others can also sponsor our travel, but i doubt that would be common
20:46:46 <heycam> Topic: Modules and the work ahead
20:47:23 <heycam> DS: after discussions with a number of people, i think our most stable choice going forward is to assume that we are working in the way we thought we were going to be working
20:47:30 <heycam> DS: that is, working on modules rather than a monolithic spec
20:48:05 <heycam> DS: there are some challenges to this, but we don't want to abandon 1.2T completely, as it doesn't send good signals about maturity
20:48:25 <heycam> DS: one problem is figuring out where to put stuff that is common to all modules
20:48:49 <heycam> DS: i think rather than coming up with some elaborate plan where it gets pulled in from some place, we can simply coordinate on the issues (between the different module editors)
20:49:16 <heycam> CM: yes i think we should try doing that first, before solving it technologically
20:49:30 <heycam> CL: currently there's a blank directory that you copy to start writing a module, is that still what we should do?
20:49:48 <heycam> DS: i've been copying one of the old modules and checking it in under the new name
20:50:25 <heycam> DS: put in a new .conf file if there's not one already
20:50:38 <heycam> DS: svg tiny/core need a more complicated make system than most of the modules
20:50:42 <heycam> DS: since they'll likely just be single page
20:50:46 <NH> NH has joined #svg
20:50:58 <heycam> AG: maybe compositing would be more than one
20:52:46 <heycam> CM: i haven't made the changes to the build script to handle single pages
20:55:10 <heycam> DS: we can edit the master files until the scripts have been updated to handle modules
20:56:34 <heycam> RESOLUTION: We'll stick with the current plan of having modules that work on top of 1.2T (with the goal that 1.2T + modules would have all the functionality of 1.1)
20:58:07 <heycam> DS: we want to make it clear that SVG 1.2 Tiny is stable and future compatible regardless of what other work we do
20:59:44 <heycam> CL: i agree
21:06:22 <anthony_> anthony_ has joined #svg
21:08:34 <Zakim> -ChrisL
21:08:40 <Zakim> -anthony
21:08:41 <Zakim> -heycam
21:08:45 <Zakim> -NH
21:08:56 <heycam> Zakim, list participants
21:08:56 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Shepazu, heycam, anthony, NH, ChrisL
21:09:00 <Zakim> -Shepazu
21:09:02 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()2:30PM has ended
21:09:03 <Zakim> Attendees were Shepazu, heycam, anthony, NH, ChrisL
21:09:03 <shepazu> NH to have torkel email Doug about MAE
21:09:14 <heycam> Regrets: Erik
21:09:18 <shepazu> Action: NH to have torkel email Doug about MAE
21:09:18 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2354 - Have torkel email Doug about MAE [on Niklas Hagelroth - due 2008-11-27].
21:09:23 <heycam> RRSAgent, make minutes
21:09:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-svg-minutes.html heycam
21:09:26 <anthony> Zakim, bye
21:09:26 <Zakim> Zakim has left #svg
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22:03:40 <NH> NH has joined #svg
23:24:09 <heycam> heycam has joined #svg