15:55:03 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
15:55:03 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-irc
15:55:08 <Ralph> Meeting: RDF-in-XHTML Task Force
15:55:17 <Ralph> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Nov/0032.html
15:55:41 <Ralph> -> http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html previous 2008-11-06
15:55:47 <Ralph> rrsagent, please make record public
15:57:05 <Ralph> Regrets: Michael
15:58:47 <markbirbeck> Will be two minutes late. :) (Just finished another call, and need to find a cup of tea. ;))
15:59:31 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started
15:59:32 <Zakim> +Ralph
15:59:56 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #rdfa
16:00:45 <Zakim> +ShaneM
16:00:46 <Zakim> -ShaneM
16:00:46 <Zakim> +ShaneM
16:01:03 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
16:01:03 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
16:01:05 <Zakim> +Steven
16:01:07 <msporny> Ralph doesn't go back... only forward.
16:01:29 <Steven> zakim, drop steven
16:01:29 <Zakim> Steven is being disconnected
16:01:30 <Zakim> -Steven
16:01:49 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:02:39 <benadida> benadida has joined #rdfa
16:02:42 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
16:02:43 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
16:02:44 <Zakim> +Steven
16:02:59 <Zakim> +Ben_Adida
16:03:27 <msporny> zakim, I am +[IPCaller]
16:03:27 <Zakim> sorry, msporny, I do not see a party named '+[IPCaller]'
16:03:31 <Ralph> Chair: Ben
16:03:32 <msporny> zakim, I am IPCaller
16:03:32 <Zakim> ok, msporny, I now associate you with [IPcaller]
16:03:47 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Ben_Adida
16:03:50 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose ShaneM
16:04:04 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose ShaneM
16:04:06 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Ralph
16:04:11 <Ralph> Scribe: Ralph
16:06:12 <markbirbeck> Hey...thanks Ralph. And a chocolate biscuit too! Most kind.
16:06:19 <markbirbeck> zakim, code?
16:06:19 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
16:06:50 <Zakim> +markbirbeck
16:06:51 <Ralph> Ben: I was invited to talk with Interlab (Lawrence Livermore) alongside some Microformat folk,
16:06:54 <Ralph> ... had a lovely time
16:07:13 <Ralph> ... agreement that there was a place for both RDFa and Microformats
16:07:23 <Ralph> ... a range of stuff people want to express
16:07:59 <Ralph> ... use microformat vcard if it does what you want, use RDFa if you need to extend
16:08:34 <Ralph> ... that audience pretty quickly saw the need to add their own extensions
16:08:45 <msporny> http://microformats.org/wiki/Main_Page
16:08:53 <Ralph> s/(L/(at L
16:08:55 <msporny> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard
16:09:14 <Ralph> Manu: Microformats is starting to markup their site in a style similar to W3C
16:09:47 <Ralph> Ben: get them to use RDFa in their specs :)
16:10:02 <Ralph> Ralph: yeah, embarass W3C into publishing RECs with RDFa by being second to do it ;)
16:16:21 <Ralph> next item
16:16:31 <Ralph> zakim, take up item 1
16:16:31 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Action Items" taken up [from Ralph]
16:16:47 <Ralph> ACTION: Ben to add forward pointer to old task force page to point to new TF page. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
16:16:59 <Ralph> Ben: required writing a new task force page 'cause we didn't really have one
16:17:09 <benadida> old tf page --> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/
16:17:19 <benadida> new tf page --> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/
16:17:33 <Ralph> -- done
16:18:10 <Ralph> Ben: Michael had created a page, now cited from the new page, but it had too much detail for a TF home page
16:18:15 <Ralph> Manu: add a link to the wiki
16:18:35 <Steven> agenda+ Drupal
16:18:38 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to add public-rdfa examples to wiki and think of slightly improved top-level organization [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
16:18:48 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa" with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
16:19:05 <Ralph> [DONE] ACTION: Manu to add test case for empty @about inside a chain [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
16:19:16 <Ralph> Manu: test case 120
16:19:33 <Ralph> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Nov/0031.html Test Case #120: empty string "" is not equivalent to NULL
16:19:38 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once the NS URI is set up. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
16:19:49 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Manu talk with Jamie McCarthy about an AskSlashdot piece [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action04]
16:20:00 <Ralph> [DONE] ACTION: Manu to create two TCs to test fragment identifiers dropped during URI resolution against [base] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
16:20:22 <Ralph> Manu: test cases 118 & 119
16:20:32 <Ralph> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Nov/0029.html Test Case #118: Fragment identifiers stripped from BASE 
16:20:44 <Ralph> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Nov/0030.html Test Case #119: Fragment identifiers resolved correctly for subjects/objects 
16:20:55 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases for Ivan. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
16:21:02 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
16:21:23 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
16:21:48 <Ralph> Ben: should we look for more resources on this? some collaborators?
16:22:01 <Ralph> Mark: I volunteered for this action because I do have an old wizard for XForms
16:22:10 <Ralph> ... was originally written for a plug-in that required installation
16:22:27 <Ralph> ... we have a new project; Ubiquity XForms that's an ajax library
16:22:44 <Ralph> ... the wizard running in Ubiquity XForms would run on any browser
16:22:54 <Ralph> ... that's what I've been planning to do
16:22:57 <Ralph> ... just been swamped
16:23:16 <Ralph> Ben: I'd come across Ubiquity XForms while searching for something else
16:23:20 <Ralph> ... seems pretty cool
16:23:42 <Ralph> ... perhaps I might be able to help
16:24:01 <Ralph> Mark: happy to share what I have; may be a good way to learn XForms too
16:24:10 <Ralph> ... it's not a complex wizard
16:24:33 <Ralph> ... I used the FOAF RDF Schema in my old wizard, which I thought made this more useful
16:24:37 <Steven> Advert for Ben - http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/2003/xforms-for-html-authors.html
16:24:43 <Ralph> Ben: yes, nice to drive the whole thing from RDF
16:25:05 <benadida> ACTION: Mark to send Ben ubiquity related wizard stuff
16:25:48 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
16:25:57 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
16:26:03 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
16:26:13 <Ralph> Ben: RSS+RDFa came up at the Interlab talk
16:26:13 <markbirbeck> @Ralph: http://ubiquity-xforms.googlecode.com/
16:26:40 <Ralph> s/@Ralph:/Ubiquity XForms
16:26:52 <Ralph> Ben: extensibility is important
16:27:06 <Ralph> Steven: I wrote something on one of Mark's wikis a while ago
16:27:10 <Ralph> ... but it disappeared
16:27:23 <Ralph> Mark: yeah, unfortunately I lost that wiki data due to spam
16:28:00 <Ralph> Manu: there's a lot of similarity between hAtom and SIOC
16:28:16 <Ralph> ... ought to be easy to write a tool to extract the SIOC triples and rewrite it as hAtom
16:28:24 <Ralph> ... use SIOC as the base syndication format
16:28:32 <Ralph> Ben: Atom is built to be extensible
16:28:43 <Ralph> ... so there's an interesting case to be made specifically for this use case
16:28:52 <Steven> [1] 
16:28:52 <Steven> <http://internet-apps.blogspot.com/2005/01/xhtml-2-as-universal-document.htm 
16:28:52 <Steven> l>
16:28:52 <Steven> [2] <http://www.xforms-wiki.com/bin/view/Main/LanguageRdfAExampleRSS>
16:29:18 <Ralph> Steven: ^ are the dead links
16:29:50 <Ralph> s/are/is
16:29:52 <Ralph> s/links/link
16:30:36 <Ralph> move to next item
16:30:37 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Test Cases" taken up [from Ralph]
16:30:42 <msporny> TC 116: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Nov/0027.html
16:30:59 <Ralph> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Nov/0027.html Test Case #116: Relative URLs must be resolved in resulting triples
16:31:15 <msporny> Title should be "XML Entities must be supported by RDFa parser"
16:33:43 <Ralph> Ralph: it's important that the MIME type of the document describing the expected results is clear.  E.g. if it's XML then some re-encoding is needed
16:34:04 <Ralph> RESOLVED: test case 116 approved
16:34:16 <msporny> TC 117: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Nov/0028.html
16:34:16 <Ralph> -- test 117
16:34:41 <msporny> Description should be: "This test case should strip the fragment from [base] when generating the subject of the triple."
16:35:07 <Ralph> Manu: oops, wrong test
16:35:20 <Ralph> ... 117 is Toby Inkster's test for reserved words in @property; a negative test
16:36:43 <Steven> More on rss+RDFa - http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/syndication/message/548
16:36:51 <Ralph> Manu: any other triples that shouldn't be generated? :)
16:37:17 <Ralph> Mark: Toby's wording suggested a specific triple shouldn't be generated
16:37:25 <Ralph> ... in fact, this test should generate _no_ triples
16:37:26 <Ralph> RESOLVED: test case 117 approved
16:37:31 <msporny> TC 118: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Nov/0029.html
16:37:31 <Ralph> -- test 118
16:37:42 <msporny> Description should be: "This test case should strip the fragment from [base] when generating the subject of the triple."
16:39:00 <msporny> That description should replace the contents of the <p> tag
16:39:51 <Ralph> RESOLVED: test case 118 approved
16:40:01 <Ralph> -- test 119
16:40:12 <Ralph> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Nov/0030.html Test Case #119: Fragment identifiers resolved correctly for subjects/objects
16:40:35 <Ralph> Mark: I'd like to see one with base in the body
16:41:03 <Ralph> ... the algorithm for @about="" needs to do the correct thing in both HEAD and BODY
16:41:10 <Ralph> Manu: could add another triple in the body in 118
16:41:37 <Ralph> s/see one/see a test
16:42:29 <msporny>    <body>
16:42:29 <msporny>       <div property="dc:contributor">Mark Birbeck</div> added this
16:42:29 <msporny>       triple test.
16:42:29 <msporny>    </body>
16:42:50 <Ralph> Manu: add this to 118
16:43:33 <msporny> ASK WHERE {
16:43:33 <msporny> <http://www.example.org/tc118.xhtml>
16:43:33 <msporny>    <http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/title>
16:43:33 <msporny>       "Test 0118" .
16:43:33 <msporny> <http://www.example.org/tc118.xhtml>
16:43:34 <msporny>    <http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/creator>
16:43:36 <msporny>       "Mark Birbeck" .
16:43:38 <msporny> }
16:43:57 <Ralph> s/creator/contributor
16:43:58 <msporny> The full HTML should be this:
16:44:00 <msporny> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
16:44:00 <msporny> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML+RDFa 1.0//EN"
16:44:00 <msporny>                       "http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/DTD/xhtml-rdfa-1.dtd">
16:44:00 <msporny> <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
16:44:00 <msporny>       xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/">
16:44:00 <msporny>    <head>
16:44:02 <msporny>       <base href="http://www.example.org/tc118.xhtml#fragment"></base>
16:44:04 <msporny>       <title property="dc:title">Test 0118</title>
16:44:06 <msporny>    </head>
16:44:08 <msporny>    <body>
16:44:10 <msporny>       <div property="dc:contributor">Mark Birbeck</div> added this
16:44:12 <msporny>       triple test.
16:44:16 <msporny>    </body>
16:44:18 <msporny> </html>
16:44:20 <msporny> The SPARQL should be this:
16:44:22 <msporny> ASK WHERE {
16:44:24 <msporny> <http://www.example.org/tc118.xhtml>
16:44:26 <msporny>    <http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/title>
16:44:28 <msporny>       "Test 0118" .
16:44:30 <msporny> <http://www.example.org/tc118.xhtml>
16:44:32 <msporny>    <http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/contributor>
16:44:34 <msporny>       "Mark Birbeck" .
16:44:36 <msporny> }
16:44:46 <msporny> Corrected HTML:
16:44:48 <msporny> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
16:44:48 <msporny> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML+RDFa 1.0//EN"
16:44:48 <msporny>                       "http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/DTD/xhtml-rdfa-1.dtd">
16:44:50 <msporny> <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
16:44:52 <msporny>       xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/">
16:44:54 <msporny>    <head>
16:44:56 <msporny>       <base href="http://www.example.org/tc118.xhtml#fragment"></base>
16:44:58 <msporny>       <title property="dc:title">Test 0118</title>
16:45:00 <msporny>    </head>
16:45:02 <msporny>    <body>
16:45:04 <msporny>       <p>
16:45:06 <msporny>          <div property="dc:contributor">Mark Birbeck</div> added this
16:45:08 <msporny>          triple test.
16:45:10 <msporny>       </p>
16:45:12 <msporny>    </body>
16:45:16 <msporny> </html>
16:46:03 <Ralph> RESOLVED: test case 118 approved with addition of triple in body
16:46:20 <msporny> TC 119: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Nov/0030.html
16:46:26 <Ralph> -- test 119
16:46:51 <Ralph> Manu: note @about as well as @href with an invalid fragment
16:47:03 <Ralph> ... I believe per the HTML spec that the last fragment identifier is the one that's used
16:47:13 <Ralph> Ben: how do browsers behave?
16:47:21 <Ralph> Mark: not sure you can rely on the browser behavior here
16:49:21 <Ralph> Ralph: I recommend that the test case cite the part of the spec you're relying on for the "#invalid#manu" resolution
16:49:33 <Ralph> s/spec/HTML spec/
16:50:40 <Ralph> Mark: I have a URI test suite that I'd built out of frustration a while ago
16:50:49 <Ralph> ... I believe I have an RFC-faithful implementation
16:50:51 <ShaneM> I get this: <http://www.example.org/tc119.xhtml#tc-119> <http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/contributor> <http://www.example.org/tc119.xhtml#invalid%23manu>
16:51:06 <Ralph> ... and my implementation retains everything after the first '#'
16:51:21 <Ralph> ... the first '#' indicates "from here on you have a fragment identifier"
16:51:28 <Ralph> Shane: I agree with Mark
16:51:32 <Ralph> ... as does my implementation
16:51:57 <markbirbeck> http://ubiquity-backplane.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/_unit-tests/main.html
16:52:10 <Ralph> ... using a standard perl URI library, everything after the first embedded '#' is URI-encoded
16:52:20 <Ralph> ... kind of surprising; I didn't expect this
16:52:47 <markbirbeck> This is a test suite that uses all of the examples in the RFC.
16:52:49 <Ralph> Mark: the re-encoding isn't wrong
16:53:33 <Ralph> Ben: we need to be sure about the URI spec before we approve 119
16:53:33 <msporny> TC 120: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Nov/0031.html
16:53:35 <Ralph> -- test 120
16:54:00 <Ralph> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Nov/0031.html Test Case #120: empty string "" is not equivalent to NULL
16:55:37 <Ralph> RESOLVED: test 120 approved
16:56:05 <Ralph> close this item
16:56:32 <Ralph> zakim,  take up item 4
16:56:32 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Q re: spec from Johan" taken up [from Ralph]
16:56:33 <ShaneM> email said: Step 7 and 9 create RDF triples using the [new subject] (http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-syntax/#T_new_subject) I assume these create statements are honored if the [new subject] is not null (same condition as on step 6).
16:56:58 <Ralph> Mark: the reported bug isn't quite correct but he did spot something
16:57:49 <Ralph> ... the question asked if there ought to be a guard against not having a new subject in other steps
16:57:58 <Ralph> ... but in fact the guard isn't needed in step 6 either
16:58:21 <Ralph> Shane: by the time you get to step 6 you will have a new subject
16:58:41 <Ralph> Mark: the step Johan is specifically referring to mentions @typeof, which will always be the case
16:58:59 <Ralph> ... the current guard is not at all necessary
16:59:03 <Ralph> Ralph: not harmful though?
16:59:19 <Ralph> Mark: right, I'd remove it in an errata just so it doesn't confuse anyone else
16:59:36 <Ralph> Shane: let's add it to the errata document now
17:00:53 <Ralph> ... I'll update errata and reply to the commenter
17:00:53 <Ralph> s/ter/tor
17:00:58 <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane to update the errata document to reflect that step 6 has extra text about a new subject - also respond to Johan who sent private mail, copying the task force.
17:01:25 <Ralph> Ben: next meeting in 2 weeks; 4 December
17:01:57 <Ralph> Mark: I have an almost-finished blog post on relating vocabularies; will finish that for discussion in 2 weeks
17:02:07 <Ralph> Ben: also look at @prefix writeup in the wiki
17:03:04 <Ralph> Mark: [rethinking test 119] I'm now thinking a fragment cannot contain '#'
17:03:25 <Ralph> ... though '?' and '/' are allowed back in fragment IDs
17:04:17 <Ralph> ... the reader should stop reading on the second '#'
17:04:26 <Ralph> ... that's my interpretation now
17:04:48 <Ralph> [adjourned]
17:05:25 <Zakim> -ShaneM
17:05:29 <Zakim> -Ralph
17:05:30 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
17:05:30 <Zakim> -markbirbeck
17:05:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph
17:05:58 <Zakim> -Steven
17:06:21 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended
17:06:22 <Zakim> Attendees were Ralph, ShaneM, Steven, [IPcaller], Ben_Adida, markbirbeck
17:07:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph
17:07:14 <Ralph> zakim, bye
17:07:14 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdfa
17:07:17 <Ralph> rrsagent, bye
17:07:17 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-actions.rdf :
17:07:17 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to add forward pointer to old task force page to point to new TF page. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action13] [1]
17:07:17 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-irc#T16-16-47
17:07:17 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mark to send Ben ubiquity related wizard stuff [2]
17:07:17 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-irc#T16-25-05
17:07:17 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shane to update the errata document to reflect that step 6 has extra text about a new subject - also respond to Johan who sent private mail, copying the task force. [3]
17:07:17 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-irc#T17-00-58