17:00:16 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-wg
17:00:16 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-html-wg-irc
17:00:16 <dsinger> zakim, james_craig is dsinger
17:00:17 <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
17:00:18 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
17:00:20 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be HTML
17:00:21 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see HTML_WG()12:00PM already started
17:00:21 <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
17:00:21 <trackbot> Date: 20 November 2008
17:00:23 <Zakim> -??P6
17:00:36 <Zakim> +DanC
17:00:42 <Zakim> + +49.251.280.aaaa
17:00:49 <Julian> Zakim, +49.251.280.aaaa is me
17:00:53 <Zakim> +Julian; got it
17:01:13 <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike
17:01:13 <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
17:01:14 <Zakim> +Mike
17:01:36 <MikeSmith> Zakim, mute Mike
17:01:36 <Zakim> Mike should now be muted
17:01:43 <adrianba> adrianba has joined #html-wg
17:02:16 <DanC> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2008OctDec/0007.html
17:02:18 <pimpbot> Title: {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2008-11-20 from Chris Wilson on 2008-11-19 (public-html-wg-announce@w3.org from October to December 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
17:02:20 <ChrisWilson> chair: ChrisWilson
17:02:28 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
17:02:49 <DanC> Zakim, pick a scribe
17:02:49 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose DanC
17:02:52 <ChrisWilson> Zakim, Microsoft is AdrianBa
17:02:52 <Zakim> +AdrianBa; got it
17:02:52 <DanC> Zakim, pick a scribe
17:02:53 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose DanC
17:02:58 <DanC> Zakim, pick a scribe
17:03:00 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Mike (muted)
17:03:01 <MikeSmith> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2008OctDec/0007.html
17:03:02 <pimpbot> Title: {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2008-11-20 from Chris Wilson on 2008-11-19 (public-html-wg-announce@w3.org from October to December 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
17:03:21 <MikeSmith> OK
17:03:29 <MikeSmith> scribenick: MikeSmith 
17:03:33 <MikeSmith> scribe: MikeSmith
17:03:39 <ChrisWilson> Any additions to the agenda?
17:03:44 <MikeSmith> Topic: Agenda review?
17:03:54 <Julian> +1 for ping
17:03:58 <MikeSmith> s/review?/review/
17:04:10 <MikeSmith> DanC: suggest adding @ping to agenda
17:04:25 <MikeSmith> ... buried in message from Roy Fielding posting recently
17:04:25 <ChrisWilson> agenda+ Authoring guide
17:04:26 <DanC> issue-1?
17:04:26 <trackbot> ISSUE-1 -- hyperlink auditing requires use of unsafe HTTP method -- RAISED
17:04:26 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/1
17:04:28 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-1 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:04:33 <ChrisWilson> agenda+ HTTPbis
17:04:46 <ChrisWilson> agenda+ HTML integration for HTTP auth
17:04:48 <DanC> wrong one...
17:04:58 <DanC> issue-2?
17:04:58 <trackbot> ISSUE-2 -- Practicability of UI requirements for hyperlink auditing -- RAISED
17:04:58 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/2
17:05:00 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-2 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:05:02 <ChrisWilson> agenda+ tracker review
17:05:18 <ChrisWilson> agenda+ discuss ping
17:05:41 <smedero> there are three different ISSUEs on ping in the tracker... though none of them address the more fundamental "should we be doing this" question...
17:06:03 <MikeSmith> going... going... gone
17:06:04 <ChrisWilson> zakim, take up item 1
17:06:04 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Authoring guide" taken up [from ChrisWilson]
17:06:15 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:06:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
17:06:34 <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson: MikeSmith, you suggested talking about the authoring guide...
17:06:36 <ChrisWilson> Lachy, did you have any updates on the authoring guide?
17:06:39 <MikeSmith> Lachy, you around?
17:06:47 <Lachy> not yet
17:07:02 <MikeSmith> Zakim, unmute me
17:07:02 <Zakim> sorry, MikeSmith, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
17:07:05 <Lachy> well, I started updating the introduction based on gsnedders' feedback at TPAC
17:07:07 <MikeSmith> Zakim, unmute Mike
17:07:07 <Zakim> Mike should no longer be muted
17:07:25 <ChrisWilson> Zakim, Mike is MikeSmith
17:07:25 <Zakim> +MikeSmith; got it
17:07:37 <ChrisWilson> zakim, close item 1
17:07:37 <Zakim> agendum 1, Authoring guide, closed
17:07:38 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:07:38 <MikeSmith> Zakim, umute me
17:07:39 <Zakim> 2. HTTPbis [from ChrisWilson]
17:07:39 <Lachy> but now that I'm back in Oslo, I can start working on it more
17:07:40 <Zakim> I don't understand 'umute me', MikeSmith
17:07:40 <MikeSmith> Zakim, mute me
17:07:41 <Zakim> MikeSmith should now be muted
17:07:48 <ChrisWilson> zakim, take up item 2
17:07:48 <Zakim> agendum 2. "HTTPbis" taken up [from ChrisWilson]
17:07:49 <MikeSmith> Lachy, cool
17:08:05 <MikeSmith> Lachy, karl gonna be able to help next month too
17:08:08 <Joshue> Joshue has joined #html-wg
17:08:09 <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
17:08:18 <Lachy> has this telcon just started?
17:08:24 <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson: Julian, any updates about your work last week that relate to HTML?
17:08:26 <DanC> MikeSmith, you said something about Lachy being more available after selectors API work cools down... ah... Lachy is here.
17:08:27 <MikeSmith> Lachy, yeah
17:08:32 <Lachy> I'll call in
17:08:47 <MikeSmith> Julian: work is progressing nicely
17:09:02 <MikeSmith> ... is there anything in particular that you want to know about?
17:09:24 <DanC> q+ to note some IETF liaison requests
17:09:30 <DanC> ack me
17:09:31 <ChrisWilson> ack DanC
17:09:32 <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to note some IETF liaison requests
17:09:33 <Lachy> DanC, yeah, Selectors API has now been published as an LC again and will be going to CR very soon, since there isn't much to do with it now.  So I should have plenty of time to spend on the authoring guide
17:09:53 <MikeSmith> ... in theory what we're doing should effect any spec that relies on it, [because of teh nature of the work we doing just being to refine the existing spec]
17:10:08 <Zakim> +??P19
17:10:17 <MikeSmith> DanC: somebody passed some info along to an IETF area director
17:10:19 <Lachy> Zakim, I am ??P19
17:10:19 <Zakim> +Lachy; got it
17:10:39 <Julian> DanC: so that probably was about WebSockets?
17:10:40 <MikeSmith> ... about HTML5 spec [encroaching on HTTP territory]
17:10:44 <DanC> concern about a profile of HTTP being included in the HTML spec ... WebSockets
17:10:51 <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson: DanC, any futher acttion to add to that?
17:11:06 <DanC> websockets should prolly get added to http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/products/2
17:11:07 <pimpbot> Title: Details on Product HTML Principles/Requirements - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:11:13 <MikeSmith> DanC: I have not cracked the requirements-process nut, but that one should prolly get added
17:11:22 <takkaria> websockets isn't a profile of HTTP, though
17:11:35 <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson: I tihnk we need to go through all of those again
17:11:41 <Julian> for the record -- httpbis status -- http://tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/
17:11:41 <cyns> cyns has joined #html-wg
17:11:42 <pimpbot> Title: Httpbis Status Pages (at tools.ietf.org)
17:11:48 <DanC> it's at least perceived as such a profile, takkaria 
17:12:04 <MikeSmith> ... goes back to the long-standing topic about what to do about [aligning the work with teh charter]
17:12:13 <ChrisWilson> zakim, agenda?\
17:12:13 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
17:12:15 <Zakim> 2. HTTPbis [from ChrisWilson]
17:12:16 <Zakim> 3. HTML integration for HTTP auth [from ChrisWilson]
17:12:17 <Zakim> 4. tracker review [from ChrisWilson]
17:12:18 <Zakim> 5. discuss ping [from ChrisWilson]
17:12:20 <Zakim> +??P30
17:12:29 <MikeSmith> Julian
17:12:31 <Joshue> zakim, ??P30 is Joshue
17:12:31 <Zakim> +Joshue; got it
17:12:34 <ChrisWilson> zakim, close item 2
17:12:34 <Zakim> agendum 2, HTTPbis, closed
17:12:35 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:12:37 <Zakim> 3. HTML integration for HTTP auth [from ChrisWilson]
17:12:38 <ChrisWilson> zakim, take up item 3\
17:12:38 <Zakim> '3\\' does not match any agenda item, ChrisWilson
17:12:40 <DanC> (hmm... give myself an action to add an issue, or add the issue here/now? is "WebSockets requirement?" enough of an issue description?)
17:12:40 <ChrisWilson> zakim, take up item 3
17:12:40 <Zakim> agendum 3. "HTML integration for HTTP auth" taken up [from ChrisWilson]
17:12:54 <DanC> (guess I'll go with an action...)
17:12:57 <ChrisWilson> DanC - add the issue
17:13:04 <MikeSmith> Julian oh Julian - update on the HTTP auth topic?
17:13:05 <DanC> ok
17:13:23 <DanC> ISSUE: WebSockets requirement? in scope?
17:13:24 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-62 - WebSockets requirement? in scope? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/62/edit .
17:13:35 <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
17:13:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see dsinger, Sam, ChrisWilson, Shawn_Medero, DanC, Julian, MikeSmith (muted), AdrianBa, Cynthia_Shelly, Lachy, Joshue
17:14:04 <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson: update on HTML integration point with HTTP auth issue?
17:14:05 <DanC> issue-13?
17:14:06 <trackbot> ISSUE-13 -- Handling HTTP status 401 responses / User Agent Authentication Forms -- RAISED
17:14:06 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/13
17:14:07 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-13 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:14:31 <MikeSmith> Julian: I think discussion during the TPAC showed that the majority of the HTML WG is not interested in working on it
17:14:59 <Joshue> zakim, mute me
17:14:59 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
17:15:13 <MikeSmith> DanC: I don't think that Hixie is convinced that it's bad enough to do something about
17:15:29 <MikeSmith> ... I'm on the fence because I've not seen any proposed solution that I know how to deply
17:15:37 <MikeSmith> s/deply/deploy/
17:16:10 <MikeSmith> DanC: one approach is to say that we don't plan to tackle it in this version fo HTML5
17:16:22 <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson: we can just leave it on the issue pile...
17:16:33 <MikeSmith> DanC: leaving it where it is is the default
17:17:02 <MikeSmith> ... question is, is it time to decide to postpone it now [til a later version of HTML, if at all]
17:17:09 <adele> adele has joined #html-wg
17:17:18 <MikeSmith> DanC: rubys, thoughts on this?
17:17:24 <MikeSmith> rubys: not really
17:17:29 <MikeSmith> DanC: adrianba ?
17:17:52 <rubys> Zakim, sam is rubys
17:17:52 <Zakim> +rubys; got it
17:18:07 <MikeSmith> adrianba: [expressing that postponing it seems reasonable]
17:18:26 <MikeSmith> DanC: if we do postpone it, we should do it noisily
17:18:36 <MikeSmith> DanC: any useful venue to make noise?
17:18:38 <Julian> other than the mailing list?
17:19:04 <Lachy> I think it should definitely be postponed at least until there is some real proposal to move forward with, but it seems like it's out of scope for this group
17:19:56 <MikeSmith> Julian: [mentions that certain proposed solutions work fine in browsers, but not, e.g., in feed readers]
17:20:06 <DanC> . ACTION DanC: propose to postpone ISSUE-13 handling-http-401-status by explaining the problem, noting the lack of solutions, and asking if postponing is acceptable
17:20:19 <DanC> ACTION DanC: propose to postpone ISSUE-13 handling-http-401-status by explaining the problem, noting the lack of solutions, and asking if postponing is acceptable
17:20:19 <trackbot> Created ACTION-86 - Propose to postpone ISSUE-13 handling-http-401-status by explaining the problem, noting the lack of solutions, and asking if postponing is acceptable [on Dan Connolly - due 2008-11-27].
17:20:39 <DanC> action-86 due 2008-12-31
17:20:39 <trackbot> ACTION-86 Propose to postpone ISSUE-13 handling-http-401-status by explaining the problem, noting the lack of solutions, and asking if postponing is acceptable due date now 2008-12-31
17:20:51 <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson: just saying I don't know what set of people especially care about it
17:20:56 <Julian> fine with me, as long as we agree it *is* an issue
17:21:00 <ChrisWilson> zakim, close item 3
17:21:00 <Zakim> agendum 3, HTML integration for HTTP auth, closed
17:21:02 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:21:03 <Zakim> 4. tracker review [from ChrisWilson]
17:21:07 <ChrisWilson> zakim, take up item 4
17:21:07 <Zakim> agendum 4. "tracker review" taken up [from ChrisWilson]
17:21:13 <ChrisWilson> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda
17:21:15 <pimpbot> Title: Input for Agenda Planning for the HTML Weekly - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:21:34 <MikeSmith> agenda+ @headers update from Joshue 
17:21:46 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:21:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
17:21:47 <pimpbot> Title: HTML Weekly Teleconference -- 20 Nov 2008 (at www.w3.org)
17:22:27 <ChrisWilson> action-78 - I will close this once I've read through Ian's edits
17:22:34 <ChrisWilson> action-80?
17:22:34 <trackbot> ACTION-80 -- Chris Wilson to ian Hickson to write an assessment of possible sections to split out and estimated hours of work -- due 2008-11-24 -- PENDINGREVIEW
17:22:34 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/80
17:22:36 <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-80 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:22:36 <MikeSmith> action-78?
17:22:36 <trackbot> ACTION-78 -- Chris Wilson to suggestion text for 1.4.4 -- due 2008-10-31 -- PENDINGREVIEW
17:22:36 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/78
17:22:38 <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-78 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:23:20 <DanC> action-78: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Oct/0127.html
17:23:20 <trackbot> ACTION-78 Suggestion text for 1.4.4 notes added
17:23:21 <pimpbot> Title: HTML5 Specification - List of sections and corresponding work estimates from Ian Hickson on 2008-10-27 (public-html@w3.org from October 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
17:24:03 <smedero> Zakim, mute Shawn_Medero
17:24:03 <Zakim> Shawn_Medero should now be muted
17:24:15 <DanC> ACTION-34 due 31 Dec 2008
17:24:15 <trackbot> ACTION-34 Prepare "Web Developer's Guide to HTML5" for publication in some way, as discussed on 2007-11-28 phone conference due date now 31 Dec 2008
17:24:32 <MikeSmith> Lachy: about authoring guide, at the f2f we talked about end of December as a milestone
17:24:46 <Lionheart> Lionheart has joined #html-wg
17:25:03 <DanC> -1 telcon next week
17:25:19 <ChrisWilson> action-62?
17:25:19 <trackbot> ACTION-62 -- Michael(tm) Smith to get XHTML 2 WG response to edits around name of XML serialization -- due 2008-10-02 -- OPEN
17:25:19 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/62
17:25:21 <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-62 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:25:30 <MikeSmith> Zakim, unmute me
17:25:30 <Zakim> MikeSmith should no longer be muted
17:26:08 <DanC> action-62 due 4 Dec 2008
17:26:08 <trackbot> ACTION-62 get XHTML 2 WG response to edits around name of XML serialization due date now 4 Dec 2008
17:26:37 <MikeSmith> MikeSmith: I'll follow up with Roland
17:27:27 <Joshue> zakim, unmute me
17:27:27 <Zakim> Joshue should no longer be muted
17:27:31 <DanC> action-84?
17:27:31 <trackbot> ACTION-84 -- Joshue O Connor to prepare status report on @headers discussion by next week -- due 2008-11-20 -- OPEN
17:27:31 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/84
17:27:32 <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-84 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:27:59 <MikeSmith> Joshue: I have some feedback from PF on this issue which I'm prepared to share
17:28:04 <MikeSmith> agenda?
17:28:16 <ChrisWilson> action-75?
17:28:16 <trackbot> ACTION-75 -- Michael(tm) Smith to raise question to group about Yes, leave @profile out, No, re-add it -- and cite Hixie's summary of the discussion -- due 2008-10-24 -- OPEN
17:28:16 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/75
17:28:17 <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-75 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:28:41 <ChrisWilson> agenda+ decide on whether we're having a telecon next week
17:29:16 <MikeSmith> MikeSmith: I think we are ready to have a group survey about @profile
17:29:18 <DanC> close action-77
17:29:18 <trackbot> ACTION-77 Lead HTML WG to response to TAG discussion and report back to TAG closed
17:30:24 <MikeSmith> issue-72?
17:30:24 <trackbot> ISSUE-72 does not exists
17:30:28 <DanC> (the josh-not-in-tracker bug got fixed. http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/ )
17:30:30 <pimpbot> Title: HTML Weekly Issue/Action Summary - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:30:32 <MikeSmith> action-72?
17:30:32 <trackbot> ACTION-72 -- Chris Wilson to rewrite spec to reinstate id/headers AND their functionality by specifically stating that headers are allowed to reference a td. Reword the current definition of the headers attribute so that each of the space separated tokens must have the value of the ID value of a th or td element. -- due 2008-10-02 -- OPEN
17:30:32 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/72
17:30:34 <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-72 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:31:12 <DanC> ACTION-79 due 4 Dec 2008
17:31:12 <trackbot> ACTION-79 - send email to spark issue-60 due date now 4 Dec 2008
17:31:46 <DanC> looking at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Oct/0127.html ...
17:31:47 <pimpbot> Title: HTML5 Specification - List of sections and corresponding work estimates from Ian Hickson on 2008-10-27 (public-html@w3.org from October 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
17:31:54 <DanC> "8. Content-Type handling and content sniffing
17:31:54 <DanC> "
17:32:25 <DanC> action-81: see "8. Content-Type handling and content sniffing" in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Oct/0127.html
17:32:25 <trackbot> ACTION-81 Hixie to put content-type sniffing section on list of sections to find an editor for notes added
17:32:26 <pimpbot> Title: HTML5 Specification - List of sections and corresponding work estimates from Ian Hickson on 2008-10-27 (public-html@w3.org from October 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
17:32:28 <MikeSmith> action-83
17:32:29 <DanC> close action-81
17:32:29 <trackbot> ACTION-81 Hixie to put content-type sniffing section on list of sections to find an editor for closed
17:32:30 <MikeSmith> action-83?
17:32:30 <trackbot> ACTION-83 -- Chris Wilson to come up with a 16x16 image icon for IE for implementation chart -- due 2008-11-22 -- OPEN
17:32:30 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/83
17:32:31 <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-83 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:32:43 <ChrisWilson> zakim, agenda?
17:32:43 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
17:32:45 <Zakim> 4. tracker review [from ChrisWilson]
17:32:46 <Zakim> 5. discuss ping [from ChrisWilson]
17:32:47 <Zakim> 6. @headers update from Joshue [from MikeSmith]
17:32:48 <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson: that seems like enough from Tracker
17:32:49 <Zakim> 7. decide on whether we're having a telecon next week [from ChrisWilson]
17:32:49 <ChrisWilson> zakim, close item 4
17:32:49 <Zakim> agendum 4, tracker review, closed
17:32:50 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:32:51 <Zakim> 5. discuss ping [from ChrisWilson]
17:33:05 <ChrisWilson> zakim, take up item 6
17:33:05 <Zakim> agendum 6. "@headers update from Joshue" taken up [from MikeSmith]
17:33:13 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:33:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
17:33:15 <pimpbot> Title: HTML Weekly Teleconference -- 20 Nov 2008 (at www.w3.org)
17:33:37 <MikeSmith> Joshue: feedback from Al... not much more to add but ... 
17:33:50 <Joshue> - in current draft HTML5
17:33:50 <MikeSmith> ... I was hoping that there may be some news from the HTML WG side
17:34:00 <Joshue> - Wiki anthology of discussion
17:34:18 <Joshue> ** function and performance
17:35:20 <MikeSmith> Joshue: these comments I'm pasting in are from an e-mail message
17:35:38 <DanC> "on the wiki"? help?
17:35:38 <MikeSmith> ... maybe I can (re)post this to the public-html list
17:36:13 <MikeSmith> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/IssueTableHeaders
17:36:15 <pimpbot> Title: HTML/IssueTableHeaders - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)
17:36:24 <Joshue> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/IssueTableHeaders 
17:36:40 <MikeSmith> Joshue: that gives a good overview of the issues
17:36:56 <DanC> hmm... it starts with "HTML 5 needs ..."; that seems to presume the conclusion.
17:37:13 <MikeSmith> Joshue: jgraham smart-headers algorithm is really good ... 
17:37:24 <MikeSmith> ... but still you need a layered approach ... 
17:37:31 <MikeSmith> ... still need the markup ... 
17:37:41 <DanC> (joshue, you've lost me. if I'm representative at all, you've lost a lot of your audience)
17:37:44 <MikeSmith> ... chained headers, nested headers ... 
17:37:55 <DanC> (but maybe I'm way behind)
17:37:57 <MikeSmith> ... we talk about the same thing, but in different ways ... 
17:38:07 <MikeSmith> ... they are currently not allowed ... 
17:39:10 <MikeSmith> Zakim, mute MikeSmith 
17:39:10 <Zakim> MikeSmith should now be muted
17:39:34 <MikeSmith> DanC: that page starts with, "HTML 5 needs a mechanism that enables..."
17:39:54 <MikeSmith> DanC: that seems like [a statement of the solution, not a statement of the problem]
17:40:23 <MikeSmith> Joshue: maybe the problem needs to be more explicit
17:40:28 <MikeSmith> ... I can work on that
17:40:58 <MikeSmith> ... problem is that there is a deficiency in the markup on the HTML5 spec, that doesn't address this problem
17:41:24 <MikeSmith> DanC: I think [you need a better intro on the page that draws people in]
17:41:45 <MikeSmith> Joshue: allowing nested/chained headers seems like a great solution to me
17:42:11 <MikeSmith> ... @scope is poorly supported in AT software
17:42:32 <MikeSmith> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/IssueTableHeaders#head-9e7b78e86268dbd2771292df3f45bbe0472252bd
17:42:34 <DanC> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/IssueTableHeaders#head-29de33199bf5222d55c4a52b8970245d24bd286f
17:42:35 <pimpbot> Title: HTML/IssueTableHeaders - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)
17:42:37 <pimpbot> Title: HTML/IssueTableHeaders - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)
17:42:58 <MikeSmith> Joshue: I think the first solution "Allow headers to reference a td" is the best
17:43:02 <DanC> (now scanning the wiki page for arguments against #1 ...)
17:43:38 <ChrisWilson> zakim, close item 6
17:43:38 <Zakim> agendum 6, @headers update from Joshue, closed
17:43:39 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:43:40 <Zakim> 5. discuss ping [from ChrisWilson]
17:43:42 <MikeSmith> Joshue: that's it for now [on this topic]
17:43:48 <MikeSmith> DanC: who has the ball?
17:43:50 <ChrisWilson> zakim, agenda?
17:43:50 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
17:43:51 <Zakim> 5. discuss ping [from ChrisWilson]
17:43:52 <Zakim> 7. decide on whether we're having a telecon next week [from ChrisWilson]
17:43:57 <MikeSmith> q+ to comment
17:44:28 <MikeSmith> DanC: I don't see the arguments against discussed on that Wiki page
17:44:48 <ChrisWilson> ack MikeSmith
17:44:49 <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to comment
17:44:50 <MikeSmith> ... re-reading now, this is looking a little bit familier
17:45:09 <DanC> (ok... arguments against #1 are under "Rationale: Why Headers Should Not be Included")
17:45:33 <DanC> (checking http://www.whatwg.org/issues/ ...)
17:45:35 <pimpbot> Title: WHATWG Issues List (at www.whatwg.org)
17:45:57 <DanC> ("headers" doesn't occur there)
17:47:15 <Philip> (DanC, the headers things are in "semantics-tables" there)
17:47:29 <DanC> semantics-tables
17:47:45 <Lachy> http://www.whatwg.org/issues/#semantics-tables
17:47:46 <MikeSmith> http://www.whatwg.org/issues/#semantics-tables
17:47:47 <pimpbot> Title: WHATWG Issues List (at www.whatwg.org)
17:47:48 <pimpbot> Title: WHATWG Issues List (at www.whatwg.org)
17:47:49 <DanC> so http://www.whatwg.org/issues/#semantics-tables should work; doesn't seem to. but ok
17:48:25 <DanC> ACTION Hixie: follow up on semantics-tables messages
17:48:25 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Hixie
17:48:31 <DanC> ACTION ian: follow up on semantics-tables messages
17:48:32 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - ian
17:48:40 <DanC> trackbot, status
17:49:21 <ChrisWilson> zakim, take up item 7
17:49:21 <Zakim> agendum 7. "decide on whether we're having a telecon next week" taken up [from ChrisWilson]
17:49:28 <DanC> ACTION MikeSmith: ensure Ian Hickson follows up on semantics-tables messages
17:49:28 <trackbot> Created ACTION-87 - Ensure Ian Hickson follows up on semantics-tables messages [on Michael(tm) Smith - due 2008-11-27].
17:49:39 <Zakim> -Joshue
17:49:39 <DanC> action-87 due 4 Dec 2008
17:49:39 <trackbot> ACTION-87 Ensure Ian Hickson follows up on semantics-tables messages due date now 4 Dec 2008
17:49:41 <Joshue> Joshue has left #html-wg
17:49:56 <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
17:49:56 <Zakim> On the phone I see dsinger, rubys, ChrisWilson, Shawn_Medero (muted), DanC, Julian, MikeSmith, AdrianBa, Cynthia_Shelly, Lachy
17:49:57 <DanC> (pls update the due date with your best guess, MikeSmith )
17:50:02 <dsinger> yes, let's skip it
17:50:16 <ChrisWilson> resolved, no telecon next week.
17:50:35 <ChrisWilson> zakim, close item 7
17:50:35 <Zakim> agendum 7, decide on whether we're having a telecon next week, closed
17:50:36 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
17:50:37 <Zakim> 5. discuss ping [from ChrisWilson]
17:51:16 <DanC> (is this an action from TPAC that didn't get into tracker?)
17:52:43 <Lachy> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/ has limited documentation on how to check in and check out
17:52:44 <pimpbot> Title: W3C Public CVS Repository (at dev.w3.org)
17:53:40 <DanC> the docs are http://www.w3.org/Project/CVSdoc/
17:54:00 <Lachy> you need to generate an SSH2 key, and send in your public key
17:54:55 <ChrisWilson> zakim, take up item 5
17:54:55 <Zakim> agendum 5. "discuss ping" taken up [from ChrisWilson]
17:55:00 <MikeSmith> [Cynthia will follow up with DanC off-list about getting the doc into CVS]
17:55:18 <smedero> Roy, recently, on Ping: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Nov/0316.html
17:55:19 <pimpbot> Title: Re: An HTML language specification vs. a browser specification from Roy T. Fielding on 2008-11-20 (public-html@w3.org from November 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
17:55:35 <smedero> (he's complained about ping in the past on public-html...)
17:55:43 <DanC> issue-2?
17:55:43 <trackbot> ISSUE-2 -- Practicability of UI requirements for hyperlink auditing -- RAISED
17:55:43 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/2
17:55:45 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-2 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:55:47 <smedero> (or, objected... I should say.)
17:55:48 <MikeSmith> DanC: [summarizing objections to @ping and Roy's objections in particulars]
17:56:05 <MikeSmith> DanC: I don't yet understand the arguments against @ping
17:56:45 <MikeSmith> ... seems like taking a hidden-in-script thing and making it into a declarative mechanism
17:57:12 <MikeSmith> DanC: would like to have an eyes-open requirements discussion about this
17:57:29 <Julian> another argument against it is the way it's specified (as POST)
17:57:55 <Lachy> there's a lot of discussion about ping on the whatwg list from 2004/5
17:58:40 <MikeSmith> Julian: I think it would be helpful if the spec contained less of that stuff that clearly does not have a consensus yet in the WG
17:59:02 <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
17:59:03 <MikeSmith> ... and Roy was suggesting things of that class should first be put forward as separate documents
17:59:06 <Zakim> -Julian
17:59:07 <Zakim> -AdrianBa
17:59:09 <Zakim> -Shawn_Medero
17:59:12 <MikeSmith> [adjourned]
17:59:12 <Zakim> -rubys
17:59:13 <ChrisWilson> adjourned (will continue discussion next week)
17:59:14 <Zakim> -Lachy
17:59:15 <Zakim> -dsinger
17:59:18 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:59:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
17:59:19 <Zakim> -ChrisWilson
17:59:19 <pimpbot> Title: HTML Weekly Teleconference -- 20 Nov 2008 (at www.w3.org)
17:59:45 <MikeSmith> @time
17:59:45 <pimpbot> MikeSmith: 02:59 AM JST, November 21
18:00:11 <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop MikeSmith 
18:00:11 <Zakim> MikeSmith is being disconnected
18:00:13 <Zakim> -MikeSmith
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18:35:00 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, DanC, in HTML_WG()12:00PM
18:35:01 <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
18:35:03 <Zakim> Attendees were Shawn_Medero, ChrisWilson, dsinger, DanC, Julian, AdrianBa, MikeSmith, Cynthia_Shelly, Lachy, Joshue, rubys
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20:15:27 <anne> (my apologies for missing the telcon, I just came back from Tanzania and some family came over for food and pictures)
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22:35:09 <Hixie> DanC: fwiw i share your worry about people feeling disenfranchised (in particular roy and sam) -- if you have any ideas on preventing that, i'm eager to hear them
22:35:42 <Hixie> it's not clear to me what we did differentlt with them than the hundreds of other happy participants
22:38:49 <DanC> your style works for some people and not for others
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22:42:15 <Hixie> DanC: yeah... i dunno what to do about that though
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22:43:05 <DanC> mix in more styles, I hope
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22:43:57 <Hixie> i'm trying to mix in more styles with roy's recent thread, trying to dig deep into what assumptions he has so i can work out where he's coming from, but it's like squeezing blood from a stone
22:44:13 <Hixie> i don't know what style works best for this demographic
22:45:20 <Hixie> (or how to recognise early enough that someone needs a different approach)
22:45:30 <Hixie> any ideas?
22:45:58 <DanC> I have a hard time taking this seriously, Hixie . I think you know when you're pissing somebody off.
22:46:27 <Hixie> i can tell when i'm pissing them off, but it's usually too late by then
22:46:35 <Hixie> and i don't know _why_ i'm pissing them off
22:46:53 <Hixie> e.g. i have no idea why roy is getting pissy in the recent thread, where i'm actively going out of my way to work out what he wants
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22:47:13 <Hixie> and i don't think sam got pissed off, and i don't know why he would have if he did, and i have no idea what i should have done differently
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22:48:01 <Hixie> what e-mails from roy should i have replied to differently? and how should i have replied?
22:49:04 <DanC> sometimes email is a really bad way to learn about somebody's motivations
22:49:15 <Hixie> that's for sure
22:50:48 <DanC> no idea why roy is acting annoyed? really? I find that hard to believe. You can't even make some informed guesses?
22:51:14 <DanC> likewise sam. You don't remember any interactions in the past where he might have walked away in frustration?
22:51:59 <DanC> I think some of it comes down to basic technical disagreements; e.g. how much error handling should be in the HTTP and URI specs.
22:52:25 <Hixie> surely they're not just getting pissed because of technical disagreements?
22:52:30 <Dashiva> It's like he's representing an entirely separate ecosystem that uses HTML, but it disconnected from the web
22:52:37 <DanC> in those cases, I could point to things that you _could_ have done differently with Roy, but to say what you _should_ have done differently presumes I know which of you is right, and I'm not sure I do.
22:53:25 <jgraham> DanC: Does it matter who is right in tems of how to interact?
22:53:25 <Hixie> wait so you're saying that the only way to make them not feel disenfranchised is by agreeing with them technically and changing the spec?
22:53:44 <DanC> no
22:53:56 <gavin> I think that's probably true
22:54:40 <DanC> I'm saying _some_ of the friction comes from technical disagreements.
22:54:50 <Hixie> i thought with sam the last time we had a big discussion the last thing he said was that he understood where we were, and was partially in agreement. i don't remember him being pissed off. but earlier he said he felt he had tuned out
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22:55:30 <DanC> then, pile on top of that his style and your style; each of you has umpteen years of experience behind your sense of design
22:56:06 <Hixie> it doesn't really matter who has experience, surely, if we're discussing technical points with corresponding logical argumentation and evidence
22:56:06 <rking3> its seems to me roy is being quite unreasonable
22:56:35 <DanC> the frustration comes in trying to relay 15 years of experience in a paragraph
22:57:00 <jgraham> Roy seem to have very different assumptions about how the web works to those of many other members of the group
22:57:19 <Hixie> well that's why i tried to drill down into his assumptions in the recent thread
22:57:24 <Hixie> but it just made him even angrier
22:57:38 <Hixie> which seems weird to me, why would trying to listen to his feedback piss him off?
22:57:48 <Hixie> especially when his complain is that we don't listen to his feedback
22:58:05 <DanC> yes, roy is over-the-top lately. but come on: that sort of thing is rewarded in email. I tried various less loud ways to manage the WG and I was ignored.
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22:58:24 <jgraham> DanC: In what sense rewarded?
22:58:24 <DanC> in the process of "listening", you twisted his words.
22:58:25 <rking3> he's had many more paragraphs to make his point, but instead chooses to make non constructive critiques of the current work
22:58:25 <rking3> jgraham: i think that's the core of it
22:58:25 <rking3> he says "I don't care about scripting", but a large part of the web requires it
22:58:39 <DanC> rewarded in that it gets lots of attention and responses
22:59:12 <Dashiva> It was much the same with URLs, wasn't it? "You're doing it wrong, we don't care about the real world, go fix it instead"
22:59:23 <rking3> DanC: roy accused hixie of twisting his words, but would not say in what way they were twisted
22:59:45 <Hixie> it certainly wasn't my intent to twist his words
22:59:58 <Hixie> i'm just trying to understand him
23:00:10 <Hixie> but apparently that approach doesn't work either
23:00:12 <DanC> Dashiva, please, be careful. " we don't care about the real world"  -- are you sure anyone said exactly that? putting words in people's mouth like that is off-putting.
23:00:46 <Hixie> i'm really at a loss as to how to work with roy in a way that makes him understand that his feedback _is_ being listened to and balanced against everyone else's feedback
23:01:21 <Hixie> (i'm assuming he's not getting pissed off, as you put it, because we _are_ balancing his feedback against everyone else's, though i suppose it is plausible that he wants us to consider his feedbac above other people's)
23:01:25 <jgraham> Speaking purely for myself, the main effect was to decrease my respect for him. I hink I understand why he was annoyed by Hixie but the way he responded suggested that he was more interested in making a scene than in making progress
23:02:26 <Hixie> why was he annoyed?
23:03:02 <gavin> he's annoyed because you don't agree with him
23:03:03 <DanC> it sure looked to me like you mixed substantial argument with your listening, Hixie.
23:03:14 <Dashiva> DanC: Saying that would require speaking straight and not packaging things carefully, so no, nobody said that.
23:03:46 <jgraham> I might not explain thi well, but I think he believed that you were trying to demonstrate that his views were unreasonable by asking a long series of leading questions that you would later use to justify not listening to him
23:03:46 <Hixie> DanC: do you think that is what pissed him off? technical argumentation?
23:04:34 <DanC> argumentation hidden as "listening". yes.
23:04:52 <gavin> or more generally, because hixie doesn't see "the web" and "html" the same way he does
23:05:00 <gavin> I think it's nearly impossible to reconcile the differences in viewpoints
23:05:05 <gavin> so it just seems like a waste to try
23:05:19 <gavin> perhaps I'm being too pessimistic :)
23:05:26 <Hixie> DanC: was it hidden as such? that wasn't my intent.
23:05:38 <DanC> perhaps, but writing people off is really, really risky
23:05:48 <Hixie> i have no interest in writing roy off, indeed
23:05:50 <Hixie> or anyone
23:05:53 <gavin> spending large amounts of time arguing and getting nowhere is pretty risky too :)
23:05:59 <DanC> yup
23:06:49 <DanC> I don't mean to speak to the intent behind your questions, Hixie. I mean to say what I think Roy perceived.
23:07:05 <jgraham> I'm not sure if I'm the only person who thinks that the HTML-WG spends a great deal too much time on meta-issues
23:07:20 <Hixie> DanC: fair enough. do you have any advice on how i can avoid that perception?
23:07:58 <DanC> maybe focus on a handful of questions at a time... go more depth-first in the investigation
23:08:14 <Hixie> hm that might work
23:08:41 <jgraham> Hixie: I think people can percieve "do you agree with statement a or statement b" as trying to put words in their mouth
23:09:00 <gavin> which is a shame, really
23:09:09 <gavin> they should be able to answer "neither" without taking offence
23:09:18 <Hixie> yeah i was a little concerned over phrasing it that way but i'm having great trouble getting him to put his substantive statements in full sentences
23:09:31 <Hixie> which makes it hard to work out what he means
23:09:34 <DanC> jgraham, I'd like us to dispense with most of the meta-issues too, but the fact that they keep coming up says to me that we haven't built the right social structure het
23:09:35 <DanC> yet
23:09:36 <gavin> though I see how it could be a frustrating to have a conversation
23:10:28 <DanC> Hixie, I think he has largely made up his mind about you; I'm not sure you can make much progress without involving other people
23:10:34 <DanC> progress with Roy, that is
23:10:51 <jgraham> DanC: I have no idea what the right social structure is. Or even what that means really. Is the right social structure one in which these issues are decided or one in which there is some way of preventing these issues from blocking progress?
23:10:52 <Hixie> that would be sad
23:11:08 <Hixie> how should i recognise other people who require special treatment along these lines in future, before they get pissed off?
23:11:15 <Dashiva> If he's made his mind up about Hixie, why doesn't he try to convince the n-1 other members of the WG?
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23:11:54 <DanC> the right social structure is one where these issues are decided in a way that pretty much everybody feels their input was given due consideration
23:13:03 <jgraham> Dashiva: I guess n-m-1 of the working group are percieved as being Hixie fanbois or powerless to effect change or both. m is probably rather small
23:13:28 <DanC> I don't suggest Roy requires special treatment. And he's certainly not blameless
23:14:08 <DanC> I have asked you to say nothing when you know what you're going to say is going to piss people off, hixie. You said no. Maybe you'd like to reconsider?
23:14:10 <jgraham> DanC: Do you have an example of such a structure working in another environment as large and diverse in ideology as the HTMLWG
23:14:21 <DanC> no
23:14:25 <DanC> the scale of this project is new to me
23:14:27 <Dashiva> jgraham: Really? Considering the activity on @alt and @headers and whatnot else, I'd estimate m to be pretty big.
23:14:29 <Hixie> DanC: well insofar as he feels turned away, whereas most people who have come to the community have either left happy (and told me so) or joined the ranks of the active participants, he needs special treatment so that he doesn't feel turned away
23:15:22 <Hixie> DanC: well in the case of roy i didn't know ahead of time that what i was said was going to piss him off.
23:15:29 <Hixie> DanC: so that seems like a separate problem.
23:15:53 <jgraham> Dashiva: I think the number of people that are percieved as having the ability to effect change in the draft is rather small
23:17:01 <DanC> ok... I see what you're saying about special treatment. This is something I realized too late about the W3C HTML WG:
23:17:49 <DanC> the WHATWG grew at a sustainable rate. The community was self-selecting. Roy pipes up in the W3C HTML WG not because he's attracted to the work we're doing, but because it has a chance of impacting him even though he doesn't like it.
23:18:29 <aroben> aroben has joined #html-wg
23:18:30 <DanC> As hundreds of people joined the W3C HTML WG, I didn't greet each one at the door and orient them.
23:19:02 <jgraham> DanC: Is it possible that no social structure can be invented that will allow large groups of people with mutually conflicting ideology to feel that their views have been adequately considered? In a small group people might be convinced to accept change that they dislike for the sake of progress. In a larger group there may always be a subset of people who refuse to compromise on certian issues
23:19:12 <DanC> as bad behaviour came up on the list, I quietly tried to recruit people to take care of that sort of thing eventually, but mostly ignored it, waiting for other parties to join.
23:20:08 <DanC> sure, jgraham ; we're not trying to make absolutely *everybody* happy.
23:20:32 <DanC> but I'm trying to get the HTML WG to function as a peer among many groups
23:21:49 <DanC> it's just plain true that HTML is bigger than most groups, and so they see something scary coming their way
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23:22:00 <jgraham> DanC: It's not about whether people end up happy or not it's about whether the same issues keep being dredged up so preventing progress
23:23:04 <DanC> as more people come on board, old stuff gets re-examined. that's natural. we try to make it efficient with FAQs and design principles and stuff.
23:23:15 <DanC> witness the recent "In essence, it is a fundamental 
23:23:15 <DanC> rejection of one of the core values of XML. It is the polar opposite of 
23:23:15 <DanC> draconian error handling."
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23:24:14 <DanC> somebody should respond to that with a pointer to the relevant design principle
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23:25:05 <DanC> I wish the principles would get cited by reference more often, to make it clear which are more ratified than just individual positions
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23:26:41 <DanC> (and mjs said something about lots of people voting for the design principles; I don't think we ever put them to a vote. I think they've stabilized sort of by default.)
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23:26:56 <jgraham> DanC: I have witnessed that citing design principles often causes disagreement over the interpretation of the principle or suggestions to alter the principles themselves
23:27:20 <DanC> that's part of the game, no?
23:27:22 <jgraham> similarly when mjs brought up the charter recently
23:27:31 <Hixie> yeah citing the design principles doesn't seem to actually help
23:28:04 <DanC> I think you don't give it enough credit, Hixie...
23:28:34 <DanC> to you, the design principles are so old they seem like gravity, but they're new to other people.
23:28:38 <Hixie> i think uniformally when i have tried citing them it has taken me more e-mails to get the point across than when i have not
23:28:48 <jgraham> DanC: Not if the group wastes 100 emails explaining why "don't break the web" is fundamental and necessary when it could be doing something useful
23:29:02 <DanC> maybe to get the point across to that one person, but keep in mind the 400+ people watching the conversation, hixie
23:29:13 <DanC> not waste; spend.
23:29:24 <jgraham> I'm not convinced that the 400 people exist
23:29:49 <DanC> you think some robot filled out the form?
23:29:55 <Hixie> and 900+ on the whatwg list, but there too, with no mention of the principles, we again don't have a problem not citing them
23:29:56 <DanC> or you think people don't read the email?
23:30:03 <jgraham> I doubt those people read all the email
23:30:07 <Hixie> going back to the earlier discussion, i really have no idea how to detect people who need special behavior before it's too late. if there's no way to know in advance, i don't see how to avoid more cases of people walking away.
23:31:18 <DanC> well, to some extent, that's life, hixie. You can't *always* avoid offense; sometimes you just have to apologize once you realize you've done it.
23:31:37 <DanC> and we can't completely avoid people walking away, either
23:33:05 <DanC> oh... I should not forget the obvious: the fact that this thing called "HTML 5" also has some HTTP protocol spec and some URI spec in it.
23:33:15 <DanC> if you didn't know that would annoy people, I'm telling you, it does.
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23:33:56 <Hixie> it annoys me
23:34:02 <Hixie> i assume it annoys other people too :-)
23:34:15 <DanC> ok. then let's not be surprised when they vent a little. such is life.
23:34:20 <Hixie> not much we can do about it if those groups won't edit the specs accordingly
23:34:42 <Hixie> (and nobody has volunteered to edit the split out vesion)
23:34:44 <Hixie> version
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23:35:28 <DanC> keep in mind that in those two cases, Roy is sorta 80% of the group. or was.
23:35:28 <DanC> I'm working on the URI thing.
23:35:31 <DanC> I think I should be able to get that done. I'll say so on the list before much longer
23:36:36 <DanC> I'm in this step: "researching, reverse engineering, designing, and 
23:36:36 <DanC>    specifying, depending on the approach taken
23:36:36 <DanC> "
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23:41:43 <Hixie> cool
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23:45:15 <DanC> after that, I hope to bite off a small part of "Content-Type handling and content sniffing", namely charset detection
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23:47:20 <DanC> hmm... #9 seems like it's out of order in that list (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Oct/0127.html ). just checking to see if anybody was reading closely?
23:47:21 <pimpbot> Title: HTML5 Specification - List of sections and corresponding work estimates from Ian Hickson on 2008-10-27 (public-html@w3.org from October 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
23:53:20 <Hixie> out of order?
23:53:54 <Hixie> the list is ordered by what would be the most helpful to me to have split out
23:54:06 <Hixie> most helpful first, most harmful last
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