14:37:52 RRSAgent has joined #xhtml
14:37:52 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/11/19-xhtml-irc
14:37:54 RRSAgent, make logs public
14:37:54 Zakim has joined #xhtml
14:37:56 Zakim, this will be IA_XHTML2
14:37:56 ok, trackbot; I see IA_XHTML2()9:45AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
14:37:57 Meeting: XHTML2 Working Group Teleconference
14:37:57 Date: 19 November 2008
14:38:44 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Nov/0012.html
14:39:05 rrsagent, make minutes
14:39:05 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/19-xhtml-minutes.html Roland
14:39:14 rrsagent, make log public
14:39:50 Chair: Roland
14:40:51 markbirbeck has joined #xhtml
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14:41:18 IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has now started
14:41:25 +Roland
14:42:29 + +04670855aaaa
14:42:58 Zakim, aaaa is Tina
14:42:58 +Tina; got it
14:44:05 +Gregory_Rosmaita
14:45:09 Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
14:45:13 Regrets: Steven
14:45:14 ScribeNick: oedipus
14:45:27 RS: regrets from Steven who is sick
14:45:32 rrsagent, make minutes
14:45:32 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/19-xhtml-minutes.html Roland
14:45:38 rpgfan3233 has joined #xhtml
14:46:19 TOPIC: Agenda Review, News and New Items
14:46:26 alessio has joined #xhtml
14:47:15 on my way...just be a minute...
14:47:22 +ShaneM
14:47:27 hi all :)
14:47:55 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/agenda
14:48:15 SM: disposition of comments for Access and Role are done and are up - just updated today
14:48:23 RM: all necessary to move forward
14:48:35 SM: for Access and Role, yes; CURIEs already in process
14:48:58 TOPIC: State of Documents/Deliverables
14:49:16 Tina, I'm just writing a post for italian community about your XHTML article on "The Developer’s Archive"
14:49:25 RM: SP sent transition requests; nothing scheduled yet as for publication; waiting for commm team
14:49:28 alessio: excellent. Thank you.
14:49:55 +??P22
14:50:04 RM: Role and Access Modules in same state; WG voted to forward; drafts ready and disposition of comments are also ready
14:50:06 zakim, ??P22 is Alessio
14:50:06 +Alessio; got it
14:50:23 ACTION: Steven - request CR Transition for Role Module
14:50:23 Created ACTION-30 - - request CR Transition for Role Module [on Steven Pemberton - due 2008-11-26].
14:50:39 ACTION: Steven - request CR transition for Access Module
14:50:40 Created ACTION-31 - - request CR transition for Access Module [on Steven Pemberton - due 2008-11-26].
14:50:45 rrsagent, make minute
14:50:45 I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minute', oedipus. Try /msg RRSAgent help
14:50:47 rrsagent, make minutes
14:50:47 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
14:51:13 Topic: XML Events 2 progress towards last call
14:51:21 zakim, who is here?
14:51:21 On the phone I see Roland, Tina, Gregory_Rosmaita, ShaneM, Alessio
14:51:22 On IRC I see alessio, rpgfan3233, oedipus, markbirbeck, Zakim, RRSAgent, Roland, ShaneM, Tina, trackbot
14:51:49 RM: WG voted to send XML Events 2 to LC
14:51:59 RM: any comments on Events document?
14:52:33 RM: do we need to resolve outstanding actions?
14:52:48 RM: Action 1 is first: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/actions/1
14:52:49 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/actions/1
14:52:50 zakim, codes?
14:52:50 I don't understand your question, markbirbeck.
14:53:02 zakim, code?
14:53:02 the conference code is 94865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
14:53:06 ACTION: Shane to update XML Events 2 draft so it has a diff mark to previous public working draft AND to the previous recommendation
14:53:06 Created ACTION-32 - Update XML Events 2 draft so it has a diff mark to previous public working draft AND to the previous recommendation [on Shane McCarron - due 2008-11-26].
14:53:31 +??P20
14:53:36 RM: only way can write need to be done before any other event fired - does it make significant difference for last call?
14:53:38 zakim, i am ??
14:53:38 +markbirbeck; got it
14:54:04 SM: be ok to put in comment perhaps -- not an open issue - not from reviewer -- WG not sure if on right track
14:54:20 RM: could put in as comment that welcome feedback on that particular statement
14:54:24 AC: agree
14:54:49 RM: reviewing actions on me: action 1 "- write to DOM3 guys on when registration will occur and when events can be fired; coordinate deeper discussion"
14:55:13 RM: can we put comment into spec saying welcome feedback on timing or do we need something more definitive
14:55:29 MB: something we raised ourselves;
14:55:46 RM: action on me was to open dialog on subject with DOM3 people
14:56:21 RM: another topic - DOM3 going to LC by end of first quarter of next year; should re-examine to ensure XML Events work in DOM2 and DOM3
14:56:47 SM: isn't that the issue: we need qnames, and if so, we need DOM3 Events?
14:57:05 MB: could do mapping at implementation layer; DOM2 doesn't have qnames, but layer on top could
14:57:20 RM: do we need qnames - if have event with qnames, can use, if not, then don't use
14:57:38 SM: do you believe that DOM2 events permit the definition of arbitrary events
14:57:42 MB: those with colon?
14:57:55 SM: in general - defined collection of event tokens that can't be extended
14:58:03 RM: did that with XML Events 1
14:58:20 SM: can you put colon in name - i say no because is a token
14:58:59 MB: one way to go is to follow RM's lead - depends on architecture which to use; if use DOM2, qnames not supported (should be explicitly stated)
14:59:11 SM: needed to write portable documents
14:59:38 MB: could map it
14:59:42 SM: how would approach?
15:00:25 MB: XML Events 2 layer is goig to have to have sub-code written to have calls made to DOM2 or DOM3 -- something underneath, core code, will have to do registration of events
15:00:46 MB: given system self-contained xyz:event mapped to xyz_event no one would be any the wiser
15:00:48 SM: ok
15:01:25 MB: self-contained system; weak point - XForms has xforms-submit but can't have xf:submit then
15:02:00 SM: MB's approach clean - have to put in normative requirement on DOM2 events, and no normative req on DOM3 events; problem of timing; can't rely on DOM3
15:02:13 MB: we don't have to do mapping; implementation does it
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15:02:23 SM: "must behave as if..." is all that is needed
15:02:50 SM: implementations based on DOM2 events MUST behave as if specified by qnames; the exact method is implementation-defined
15:02:56 rpgfan3233 has joined #xhtml
15:02:58 MB: ok
15:03:05 SM: where in spec to put comment?
15:03:20 SM: think needs to be in definition of event attribute
15:03:33 RM: agree - in Events part of spec
15:03:42 +1
15:03:45 SM: listener elements and DOM3 Event Mutation
15:04:27 SM: does DOM3 have all interfaces we are exposing? all subjects in handler module and bubbling stuff - default target, etc. -- 4 potential phases in DOM2 - have to clarify situation vis a vis DOM3
15:04:57 SM: phases is ok -- we define what each term means in the spec
15:05:13 MB: one level up events are ok
15:05:46 SM: others of interests: DispatchEvents, etc. - those are our definitions; style propagation and prevent default already in DOM2
15:06:09 MB: on DOM3 question, are they still considering using qnames?
15:06:41 RM: yes, although faction oppose
15:07:02 SM: interestingly, the last draft of DOM3 Events, from 2007, doesn't contain term qname
15:07:21 SM: does have NamespaceURI as attribute
15:07:28 SM: don't use qualified name either
15:07:44 http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/events.html#Events-Event
15:08:23 SM: events interface in DOM3 defines addEventListener and addEventListenerNS - that is interesting and shows way towards mapping; if interface like this, no mapping needed, if not, know what to do
15:09:01 MB: by spliting namespace out into seperate property and not using qnames, trying to ensure baackwards compatibility -- use local name, may not be namespace present
15:09:09 MB: should we be doing the same
15:09:18 SM: not needed for our users
15:09:41 MB: assuming that using qnames is more convenient than using 2 attributes, one with namespace and one with type
15:10:02 SM: namespace prefix going may be used hundreds of times -- burden on author
15:10:10 SM: foo:bar implies a namespace
15:10:34 MB: does imply that alogrithm foo:bar becoming foo_bar is wrong; in DOM2 becomes just bar
15:10:54 MB: initEvent method receives bar; if eventsNS receive bar plus the foo
15:11:30 MB: note needs to state: be careful, if use DOM2 foo will be ignorned and foo:bar and foo_bar will map to same event
15:12:06 SM: approach might work, but could also say - if ontop of DOM2, should treat foo:bar and bar identically
15:12:22 MB: 2 methods: one with namespace property and one without
15:12:33 SM: latest editor's draft?
15:13:39 SM: define spec on our side that allows our constituents to write applications; no idea what underlying implementation is
15:13:48 RM: DOMHasFeature will tell you that
15:14:03 SM: XML Events 2 not scripting, but declarative through use of handlers
15:14:25 SM: can't serve diff documents depending upon underlying document type -- at least, i wouldn't want to
15:15:07 MB: what is use of qnames -- in local files, defining my events, don't need qnames; become useful when people write specs xf:done
15:15:18 SM: good point;
15:15:34 MB: author has control of document
15:15:39 SM: sometimes
15:15:55 MB: use qualified names with multiple markup
15:16:10 SM: if constituency is basic author, not going to use qnames for own events
15:16:21 RM: this is language-designer concern only?
15:16:39 SM: do we want to tell users "don't use qnames for your own defined events"
15:16:58 SM: "If you use qualified names, in some implementations, they may collide"
15:17:40 MB: not convinced there is a perfect solution to this; what is it that DOM3 event designers seeing when took this approach; AJAX library fires event when initialized and make dojo:done - can i register that?
15:17:56 MB: perhaps dojo:done should be different that yahoo:done
15:18:08 RM: how do we move forward? next steps?
15:18:38 MB: need to ascertain from DOM what were thinking - can attach event with one technique and can fire event with another
15:18:46 MB: what is effect we are attempting to achieve
15:19:06 MB: at script level could register event using AddEventListenerNS
15:19:59 MB: also generic AddEventListener - if author writes DOM2 code to register event, another author may write a DOM3 firing of event using different methods; may be why said xyz_bar same as foo:bar
15:20:19 MB: doesn't bring us any closer to next step, though...
15:20:52 RM: perhaps have to step back and ask question: "Do we think we should accomodate DOM2 events or move forward and use DOM3 events"
15:21:00 RM: should we tie ourselves to DOM3?
15:21:40 MB: i would no, interim step here -- XForms uses DOM2 events, ended up with if and for which migrated to XML Events
15:22:36 MB: reason for qnames addition, was to support future when DOM3 finalized; follow evolution of DOM2 events into DOM3 -- if can't figure out solution, should leave out qnames for now -- would not want to be tied to DOM3 Events because may not be done for 4 years
15:22:50 RM: other thoughts?
15:23:26 SM: can go back to DOM2 Events; could potentially provide guidance - intent to support qnames via DOM3 Events in future, and devs might want to keep that in mind
15:23:45 SM: unfortunate Steven not here; would like to hear his input before make decision
15:23:53 true
15:24:05 RM: thinking about the issues won't harm us, only benefit us
15:24:48 RM: soften question about DOM3 - should support DOM3, but requiring DOM3 different; capable of supporting DOM3 in compatability mode from earlier versions
15:25:09 RM: add new features from capability point of view; can support some DOM3 features when deployed
15:25:27 SM: like that story-line -- trying to get XML Events 2 deployed now
15:26:15 RM: entire WG should take time to review this -- anyone want to write up proposal and send to mailing list to capture the position we reached today, then revisit at call in 2 week's time
15:26:24 [complete silence]
15:26:36 RM: anyone want to try and summarize where we just go to?
15:26:42 SM: can do in an email
15:26:45 RM: thanks, shane
15:26:59 TOPIC: Upcoming Calls
15:27:10 RM: next week is thanksgiving - will there be enough attendees?
15:27:13 SM: available
15:27:17 TH: available
15:27:19 AC: no
15:27:21 MB: no
15:27:23 GJR: yes
15:27:33 s/AC: no/AC: yes
15:27:37 :)
15:27:38 rrsagent, make minutes
15:27:38 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
15:28:05 RM: i will - SP has actions to clear before he takes off in december - will ask him to clear as much as can before december
15:28:33 RM: leave decision on DOM2 and DOM3 to meeting 2 weeks from today - Mark will you be here?
15:28:42 MB: no, unavailable
15:28:56 ACTION: Shane to write a quick summary of the position w.r.t. DOM2 vs. DOM3 in XML Events 2
15:28:56 Created ACTION-33 - Write a quick summary of the position w.r.t. DOM2 vs. DOM3 in XML Events 2 [on Shane McCarron - due 2008-11-26].
15:29:01 RM: can you make sure you get your views and opinions onto emailing list so can make decision
15:29:03 MB: yes
15:29:21 TOPIC: Roadmap for XHTML2
15:29:37 RM: gregory been pushing; believe agreed should get new draft out; what were we waiting for
15:29:42 SM: editing cycles
15:29:55 RM: like to get to LC by end of first quarter of next year?
15:30:07 SM: a year ago was next public draft would be LC --
15:30:26 RM: think at june f2f decided to publish public draft
15:30:31 SM: need to get to it
15:30:54 RM: when can we get a draft out? by moritorium - next month
15:30:58 SM: moritorium?
15:31:07 RM: normally one during holiday period
15:31:18 RM: can we get another draft by 2 weeks
15:31:45 SM: everything else done, so have more time to work on XHTML2 and XML Events
15:32:12 RM: will try and draft a roadmap for XHTML2 that we can then discuss as to its reasonableness at next week's call
15:32:39 ACTION: Roland - draft roadmap for XHTML2 to discuss reasonableness at next call
15:32:39 Created ACTION-34 - - draft roadmap for XHTML2 to discuss reasonableness at next call [on Roland Merrick - due 2008-11-26].
15:32:42 rpgfan3233 has joined #xhtml
15:33:16 TOPIC: ????
15:33:27 SM: addressed all of opera's issues; ready to go
15:34:05 s/TOPIC: ????/XHTML Mime
15:34:22 SM: have a free weekend, so expect to get work done
15:34:30 rrsagent, make minutes
15:34:30 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
15:34:41 TOPIC: Lingering Items
15:35:06 RM: PERs for 1.1 (dependent upon having new note on mime); continue with modularization
15:35:39 SM: all done -- PERs ready - just need date; depends on whether can get CR stuff in and if can do anything when steven gone for a month
15:35:50 RM: i will discuss PERs with steven
15:36:15 SM: happy to have meeting with RM and SP to come up with work plan for December
15:36:25 TOPIC: Action Item Review
15:36:35 <_alessio> _alessio has joined #xhtml
15:36:37 SM: action 4 - replying to forms content on access module
15:36:41 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/actions/4
15:37:10 SM: replied formally to TAG on 18 October 2008; not acknowledged; think can close with a "no response"
15:37:43 RM: MarkB, could you bring this up in XForms call?
15:38:55 ACTION: Mark - ask XForms about Access Module concerns
15:38:55 Created ACTION-35 - - ask XForms about Access Module concerns [on Mark Birbeck - due 2008-11-26].
15:39:43 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2008Oct/0011.html
15:39:46 SM: may not have been responded because didn't submit LC to right list - sent to www-html not to our either of public lists
15:40:00 SM: Mark, please ask them to look at the post referenced above
15:40:14 SM: with respect to action 4 will put in link to related email, but think should close
15:40:25 RM: agree - action was to reply
15:41:13 TH: issue on roadmap - 4 different types of list comment
15:41:18 RM: can we clear in 5 minutes
15:41:53 TH: initial reaction is to suggest that we say "thank you for your opinion, but we don't agree with you" don't think should go from specific set of elements to generic set of elements
15:42:10 RM: last week we said we had 4; feeling was 3 is good, but is NL necessary
15:42:14 TH: need more, not less
15:42:31 TH: NL is a generic list of links with specific semantics which UL doesn't have
15:42:58 RM: could use any of other 3 list types with role="navigation"
15:43:38 SM: NL implies certain behavior and certain semantics about content; NL implies orderedness that UL does not, and OL is inappropriate construct for navigation
15:43:45 GJR: plus 1 on keeping NL
15:44:03 <_alessio> +1 too
15:44:24 MB: don't like NL -- my problem is why stop at NL, why not video list -- ability to turn anything into hyperlink in XHTML2 hard to figure out the semantics;
15:44:41 MB: understand why added NL, but think that role made superfluous
15:45:13 TH: semantics, traditionally, has been placed in element type name; UL, OL, DL, and generic list with role="navigation"
15:45:19 MB: what is generic list?
15:45:25 SM: not thinking of adding generic list
15:45:46 MB: either use semantics to clarify lists (people tend to use @class to do that)
15:45:50 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#the-nav-element
15:46:06 RM: HTML5 dealt with this with nav element
15:46:42 TH: like to see "inline list", but need to look at our philosophy; strictly speaking could end up with 1 element and 3 attributes; big step away from precedent
15:47:49 MB: guiding prinicple of XHTML2 is "less is more" -- do talk about not having just DIVs and SPANs, but ensuring hooks in language so that people can add own semantics - that's what @role introduced;
15:48:09 TH: can extend as needed in XHTML M12n framework - extend XHTML via namespaces
15:48:19 <_alessio> I'm not against nl but I see some warnings for nested lists
15:48:44 MB: you are saying that preferred extension method should be elements; have to write special module for extension
15:48:56 <_alessio> for example what about an unordered list with his role="navigation" inside an nl?
15:49:13 MB: other method is use attributes and allow identifier in there - with role and RDFa used RDF identifiers or URIs to merge with semantic web
15:49:23 q+
15:49:55 GJR: there are XML derived modules for shipping addresses and such
15:51:38 sorry - I have to run
15:51:44 -ShaneM
15:51:50 RM: need to examine HTML5 additions
15:51:58 <_alessio> agree
15:52:57