15:44:01 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #forms
15:44:01 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/11/19-forms-irc
15:44:01 <Zakim> HTML_Forms()10:45AM has now started
15:44:05 <John_Boyer> rrsagent, make log public
15:44:08 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:44:15 <kenneth> zakim, i am [IPCaller]
15:44:15 <Zakim> ok, kenneth, I now associate you with [IPcaller]
15:44:35 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:44:40 <CharlieWiecha> zakim, [IBM] is Charlie
15:44:40 <Zakim> +Charlie; got it
15:44:50 <CharlieWiecha> zakim, Charlie is CharlieWiecha
15:44:50 <Zakim> +CharlieWiecha; got it
15:45:11 <Zakim> +John_Boyer
15:45:18 <Zakim> +??P3
15:45:24 <Zakim> +wellsk
15:45:28 <prb> zakim, I am ?
15:45:28 <Zakim> +prb; got it
15:45:40 <unl> unl has joined #forms
15:45:47 <wellsk> zakim, who is here?
15:45:47 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller], CharlieWiecha, John_Boyer, prb, wellsk
15:45:48 <Zakim> On IRC I see unl, RRSAgent, Zakim, John_Boyer, CharlieWiecha, wellsk, prb, kenneth, markbirbeck, nick, trackbot
15:46:12 <John_Boyer> Meeting: Weekly Forms WG Teleconference
15:46:28 <John_Boyer> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Nov/0039.html
15:46:38 <John_Boyer> Chair: John
15:46:41 <John_Boyer> Scribe: Leigh
15:46:50 <Zakim> +unl
15:47:07 <unl> zakim, mute me
15:47:07 <Zakim> unl should now be muted
15:47:10 <John_Boyer> Regrets: None
15:47:38 <John_Boyer> zakim, who is here?
15:47:38 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller], CharlieWiecha, John_Boyer, prb, wellsk, unl (muted)
15:47:40 <Zakim> On IRC I see unl, RRSAgent, Zakim, John_Boyer, CharlieWiecha, wellsk, prb, kenneth, markbirbeck, trackbot
15:47:49 <Roger> Roger has joined #forms
15:48:01 <Roger> zakim, code?
15:48:01 <Zakim> the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Roger
15:49:10 <nick> nick has joined #forms
15:49:13 <nick> zakim, code?
15:49:13 <Zakim> the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), nick
15:49:26 <John_Boyer> zakim, who is here?
15:49:26 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller], CharlieWiecha, John_Boyer, prb, wellsk, unl (muted)
15:49:28 <Zakim> On IRC I see nick, Roger, unl, RRSAgent, Zakim, John_Boyer, CharlieWiecha, wellsk, prb, kenneth, markbirbeck, trackbot
15:49:33 <kenneth> zakim, i am [IPcaller]
15:49:33 <Zakim> ok, kenneth, I now associate you with [IPcaller]
15:49:41 <kenneth> zakim, who is here?
15:49:41 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller], CharlieWiecha, John_Boyer, prb, wellsk, unl (muted)
15:49:42 <klotz> klotz has joined #forms
15:49:43 <Zakim> On IRC I see nick, Roger, unl, RRSAgent, Zakim, John_Boyer, CharlieWiecha, wellsk, prb, kenneth, markbirbeck, trackbot
15:49:47 <Zakim> +Nick_van_den_Bleeken
15:51:02 <Zakim> +Leigh_Klotz
15:51:28 <John_Boyer> scribenick: klotz
15:51:37 <John_Boyer> zakim, who is here?
15:51:37 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller], CharlieWiecha, John_Boyer, prb, wellsk, unl (muted), Nick_van_den_Bleeken, Leigh_Klotz
15:51:39 <Zakim> On IRC I see klotz, nick, Roger, unl, RRSAgent, Zakim, John_Boyer, CharlieWiecha, wellsk, prb, kenneth, markbirbeck, trackbot
15:51:53 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer has changed the topic to: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Nov/0039.html
15:51:59 <Zakim> + +03491211aaaa
15:52:12 <Roger> zakim, 211aaaa is me
15:52:12 <Zakim> sorry, Roger, I do not recognize a party named '211aaaa'
15:52:17 <klotz> http://xformstest.org/2008-12-19.txt
15:52:27 <John_Boyer> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Nov/0039.html
15:52:34 <Roger> zakim, 03491211aaaa is Roger
15:52:34 <Zakim> sorry, Roger, I do not recognize a party named '03491211aaaa'
15:52:47 <ebruchez> ebruchez has joined #forms
15:53:39 <Zakim> +ebruchez
15:53:40 <Roger> zakim, +03491211aaaa is me
15:53:41 <Zakim> +Roger; got it
15:53:42 <Zakim> +??P13
15:53:47 <markbirbeck> zakim, i am ?
15:53:47 <Zakim> +markbirbeck; got it
15:55:14 <klotz> hello kenneth
15:55:15 <Roger> zakim, mute me
15:55:15 <Zakim> Roger should now be muted
15:57:45 <John_Boyer> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Nov/0033.html
15:59:20 <John_Boyer> relevant="boolean-from-string(isManager)"
16:00:48 <John_Boyer> relevant="isManager"
16:00:50 <nick> I see, it only works for string(isManager)
16:02:06 <ebruchez> only in XPath 2
16:02:51 <John_Boyer> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Nov/0034.html
16:03:27 <John_Boyer> relevant="isManager='true'"
16:04:04 <markbirbeck> zakim, mute me
16:04:04 <Zakim> markbirbeck should now be muted
16:04:16 <markbirbeck> sorry about the background noise
16:04:20 <John_Boyer> readonly="not(isManager)"
16:04:52 <John_Boyer> readonly="not(boolean-from-string(isManager))"
16:04:53 <prb> zakim, mute me
16:04:53 <Zakim> prb should now be muted
16:09:43 <klotz> RESOLVED: We rescind http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Sep/att-0025/2008-09-10.html#resolution1 in the light of this discussion, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Nov/0034.html and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Nov/0033.html
16:10:09 <nick> zakim, mute me
16:10:09 <Zakim> Nick_van_den_Bleeken should now be muted
16:10:14 <klotz> ACTION: John Boyer to update onramp boolean MIP examples to use boolean string comparison.
16:10:14 <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - John
16:10:14 <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jkugelma, jboyer)
16:10:19 <John_Boyer> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/specs/XForms1.2/modules/streamlined/index-all.html
16:11:12 <John_Boyer> XForms Transitional
16:11:52 <John_Boyer> XForms Basic
16:13:20 <John_Boyer> XForms Tiny
16:14:19 <John_Boyer> XFormsA
16:14:37 <unl> XForms Compact
16:14:39 <markbirbeck> XForms
16:14:41 <unl> XForms lite
16:14:42 <markbirbeck> :)
16:15:01 <kenneth> i like mark's suggestion
16:15:07 <prb> zakim, unmute me
16:15:07 <Zakim> prb should no longer be muted
16:15:09 <Roger> XHForms
16:15:20 <prb> zakim, mute me
16:15:20 <Zakim> prb should now be muted
16:15:26 <markbirbeck> zakim, unmute me
16:15:26 <Zakim> markbirbeck should no longer be muted
16:15:37 <unl> XForms Redux ;-)
16:19:55 <nick> q+
16:21:27 <markbirbeck> q+
16:24:47 <John_Boyer> ack nick
16:25:44 <John_Boyer> ack markbirbeck
16:26:05 <John_Boyer> q+
16:27:33 <John_Boyer> ack John_Boyer
16:29:34 <CharlieWiecha> for that last module, I think Mark just said it well: XForms HTML module
16:29:49 <CharlieWiecha> call it what it is
16:30:18 <John_Boyer> XForms for HTML?
16:30:34 <John_Boyer> is that what you mean?
16:30:46 <CharlieWiecha> kind of like just XForms HTML, period
16:31:18 <CharlieWiecha> i.e. "HTML" rather than "Tiny"
16:33:10 <John_Boyer> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/specs/XForms1.2/modules/instance/dataAccessors/Data-Accessors-Module.html
16:34:25 <markbirbeck> zakim, mute me
16:34:25 <Zakim> markbirbeck should now be muted
16:34:34 <nick> zakim, mute me
16:34:34 <Zakim> Nick_van_den_Bleeken should now be muted
16:34:38 <markbirbeck> sorry...lots of loud voices around here.
16:35:00 <CharlieWiecha> still need the next level out...Compact or something like that
16:35:12 <CharlieWiecha> for everything except "checked" etc
16:36:40 <markbirbeck> zkim, unmute me
16:36:48 <markbirbeck> zakim, unmute me
16:36:48 <Zakim> markbirbeck should no longer be muted
16:41:26 <John_Boyer> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/specs/XForms1.2/modules/streamlined/index-all.html
16:42:21 <John_Boyer> The XForms for HTML Module: Streamlined Expression...
16:42:38 <John_Boyer> Proposed name: THe XForms for HTML Module
16:43:16 <John_Boyer> Proposed Name: XForms for HTML
16:43:41 <prb> XForms for HTML is good
16:43:44 <CharlieWiecha> +1
16:43:45 <prb> +1
16:43:46 <klotz> XFormsf or HTML
16:43:54 <klotz> s/f or/ for/
16:43:58 <John_Boyer> +1
16:44:01 <nick> +1
16:44:03 <wellsk> XForms for HTML
16:44:12 <wellsk> +1
16:44:24 <markbirbeck> zakim, unmute me
16:44:24 <Zakim> markbirbeck was not muted, markbirbeck
16:44:45 <unl> +1
16:44:59 <markbirbeck> zakim, mute me
16:44:59 <Zakim> markbirbeck should now be muted
16:45:04 <markbirbeck> zakim, unmute me
16:45:04 <Zakim> markbirbeck should no longer be muted
16:45:15 <prb> Mark is trying to speak
16:45:19 <prb> but having issues
16:45:41 <markbirbeck> it's ok...just trying to confirm that we are talking about the module.
16:45:50 <John_Boyer> yes
16:45:57 <markbirbeck> ok...
16:45:59 <John_Boyer> the spec currently called XFormsA
16:46:04 <nick> nick has joined #forms
16:46:11 <John_Boyer> would be called XForms for HTML
16:46:15 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
16:46:22 <wellsk_> wellsk_ has joined #forms
16:46:24 <markbirbeck> I'm ok with it.
16:46:30 <markbirbeck> no...I can hear you.
16:46:37 <markbirbeck> just can't speak. :)
16:46:45 <markbirbeck> No...I'm here. :)
16:47:04 <klotz> RESOLUTION: We change the name of 
16:47:04 <klotz> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/specs/XForms1.2/modules/streamlined/index-all.html to "XForms for HTML"
16:47:09 <markbirbeck> I dont't understand...I have only used Zakim's muting.
16:47:16 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:47:18 <markbirbeck> s/t't/'t/
16:47:25 <klotz> ACTION: John Boyer to rename onramp to "XForms for HTML" today.
16:47:25 <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - John
16:47:25 <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jkugelma, jboyer)
16:48:56 <markbirbeck> John...I have been asked by the XHTML 2 Working Group to get the XForms WG to reply to this: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2008Oct/0011.html. Would you be able to add that to the agenda?
16:49:01 <Zakim> +ebruchez.a
16:49:36 <markbirbeck> Sure.
16:49:56 <markbirbeck> It's actually an answer to a question raised by the XForms WG, for a last call.
16:49:59 <klotz> ACTION: John Boyer to remove the namespace declarations and namespace uses from "XForms for HTML"
16:49:59 <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - John
16:49:59 <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jkugelma, jboyer)
16:50:02 <markbirbeck> Ok.
16:50:04 <markbirbeck> Will do.
16:50:51 <John_Boyer> Changes to get and set form control values
16:51:40 <John_Boyer> submission attributes, esp. prune, source, target
16:52:01 <Roger> Roger has joined #forms
16:52:15 <klotz> http://xformstest.org/2008-12-19.txt
16:53:57 <prb> Zakim, unmute me
16:53:57 <Zakim> prb should no longer be muted
16:55:50 <nick> filter-relevant ?
16:56:37 <nick> sounds good
16:56:49 <markbirbeck> XAML tends to have attribute names that include something about their purpose...and I now realise why. :)
16:57:07 <markbirbeck> So it would be @serialise-preserve, rather than @preserve.
16:57:22 <markbirbeck> Otherwise we just re-create the same problem again.
16:58:16 <markbirbeck> I saw in another spec (SPARQL I think), which has the notion of "features at risk".
16:58:24 <markbirbeck> I think this is a W3C category.
17:00:50 <markbirbeck> I made the comment in relation to attributes that might appear in many situations in a document.
17:01:23 <markbirbeck> And the pattern seems to be that even if you think an attribute won't be used anywhere else...a day will come when it is. :)
17:01:50 <klotz> ACTION: John Boyer to add editorial note about names to source, target, and prune to XForms for HTML.
17:01:50 <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - John
17:01:50 <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jkugelma, jboyer)
17:04:07 <markbirbeck> could you explain again?
17:04:52 <markbirbeck> Not backwards-compatible, I'm afraid.
17:05:01 <markbirbeck> Will mess up with accessibility.
17:05:13 <markbirbeck> Screen-reader will read alerts. :)
17:05:17 <markbirbeck> And help.
17:05:28 <markbirbeck> I.e., read stuff when it shouldn't.
17:06:05 <markbirbeck> Do you mean: <label type="alert">...</label>?
17:06:35 <markbirbeck> I also don't think that they are 'labels' semantically.
17:06:41 <markbirbeck> Sorry to be pedantic. :)
17:07:11 <markbirbeck> This is why I don't agree that we should limit ourselves to attributes.
17:07:31 <klotz> <input name='ssn' help='Put your &lt;b&gt;SSN&lt;/&gt; number here' />
17:08:08 <markbirbeck> But <alert> would need @for.
17:08:38 <markbirbeck> But we also discussed having @alertid as well as @alert.
17:08:51 <markbirbeck> <input ... @alertid="a" /?
17:09:01 <markbirbeck> <div id="a">...</div>
17:09:08 <markbirbeck> I.e., you don't need an alert element.
17:09:14 <markbirbeck> You just need _any_ element.
17:09:30 <markbirbeck> That's how many Ajax libraries work.
17:09:42 <markbirbeck> Point to a div that becomes a message, in YUI.
17:09:44 <markbirbeck> Yes.
17:10:29 <markbirbeck> I agree. :)
17:11:05 <markbirbeck> I'm only saying that there is an intermediate step between (a) using @alert, and (c) using <xf:alert>.
17:11:13 <markbirbeck> I.e., (b) use @alertid.
17:14:21 <klotz> xforms4html4
17:14:24 <John_Boyer> www.w3.org/TR/xforms-for-html
17:14:41 <John_Boyer> that would be the short name to match the doc name
17:14:57 <klotz> x4h
17:15:04 <klotz> x4h4
17:15:41 <CharlieWiecha> xf4h
17:15:52 <CharlieWiecha> no prob
17:16:35 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
17:16:37 <nick> just send an e-mail?
17:17:56 <John_Boyer> Any objection to FPWD under shortname xforms-for-html of next rev of sreamlined document with actions from today done
17:18:28 <CharlieWiecha> go for it
17:18:34 <John_Boyer> +1
17:18:35 <markbirbeck> A +1 would be an objection.
17:18:39 <CharlieWiecha> (right)
17:18:48 <markbirbeck> "I have no objection."
17:18:49 <John_Boyer> +1 = proceed, -1 == object
17:18:49 <markbirbeck> :)
17:18:54 <wellsk> +1
17:18:58 <prb> +1 (or -1, depending on perspective)
17:19:00 <markbirbeck> +1
17:19:07 <prb> +1
17:19:10 <unl> +1
17:19:16 <Roger> abstention
17:19:20 <nick> +1 (but still think we need an e-mail )
17:19:24 <ebruchez> +1
17:19:29 <klotz> +1
17:20:06 <John_Boyer> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/specs/XForms1.2/modules/streamlined/index-all.html
17:20:25 <klotz> RESOLUTION: After completion of the action items for today that we take http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/specs/XForms1.2/modules/streamlined/index-all.html to first public WD under the shortname xforms-for-html
17:20:40 <Zakim> -markbirbeck
17:20:44 <Zakim> -wellsk
17:20:48 <markbirbeck> bye everyone :)
17:20:51 <Zakim> -unl
17:20:56 <nick> shouldn't it be our short name instead of streamlined
17:20:57 <Zakim> -prb
17:21:06 <Zakim> -ebruchez.a
17:21:07 <Zakim> -Nick_van_den_Bleeken
17:21:13 <Zakim> -Leigh_Klotz
17:22:01 <Zakim> -Roger
17:22:05 <Roger> Roger has left #forms
17:22:25 <klotz> rrsagent, make minutes
17:22:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/19-forms-minutes.html klotz
17:22:25 <Zakim> -CharlieWiecha
17:22:27 <Zakim> -John_Boyer
17:24:10 <John_Boyer> zakim, who is here?
17:24:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see ebruchez
17:24:13 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, John_Boyer, prb, kenneth, markbirbeck, trackbot
17:24:19 <John_Boyer> zakim, disconnect ebruchez
17:24:19 <Zakim> ebruchez is being disconnected
17:24:21 <Zakim> HTML_Forms()10:45AM has ended
17:24:25 <Zakim> Attendees were [IPcaller], CharlieWiecha, John_Boyer, wellsk, prb, unl, Nick_van_den_Bleeken, Leigh_Klotz, ebruchez, Roger, markbirbeck
17:24:28 <John_Boyer> rrsagent, make minutes
17:24:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/19-forms-minutes.html John_Boyer
17:24:34 <John_Boyer> rrsagent, bye
17:24:34 <RRSAgent> I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/19-forms-actions.rdf :
17:24:34 <RRSAgent> ACTION: John Boyer to update onramp boolean MIP examples to use boolean string comparison. [1]
17:24:34 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/19-forms-irc#T16-10-14
17:24:34 <RRSAgent> ACTION: John Boyer to rename onramp to "XForms for HTML" today. [2]
17:24:34 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/19-forms-irc#T16-47-25
17:24:34 <RRSAgent> ACTION: John Boyer to remove the namespace declarations and namespace uses from "XForms for HTML" [3]
17:24:34 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/19-forms-irc#T16-49-59
17:24:34 <RRSAgent> ACTION: John Boyer to add editorial note about names to source, target, and prune to XForms for HTML. [4]
17:24:34 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/19-forms-irc#T17-01-50