15:52:11 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rif
15:52:11 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/11/18-rif-irc
15:52:20 <ChrisW> zakim, this will be rif
15:52:20 <Zakim> ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
15:52:46 <ChrisW> Meeting: RIF Telecon 18-Nov-08
15:52:46 <ChrisW> Chair: Christian de Sainte-Marie
15:55:27 <ChrisW> ChrisW has changed the topic to: 18 Nov RIF Telecon Agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Nov/0101.html
15:55:30 <ChrisW> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Nov/0101.html
15:55:58 <Harold> Harold has joined #rif
15:56:03 <ChrisW> agenda+ Admin
15:56:08 <ChrisW> agenda+ Liason
15:56:17 <ChrisW> agenda+ Public comments
15:56:24 <ChrisW> agenda+ action review
15:56:31 <ChrisW> agenda+ TF updates
15:56:35 <ChrisW> agenda+ UCR
15:56:40 <ChrisW> agenda+ publication plan
15:56:44 <ChrisW> agenda+ DTB
15:56:53 <ChrisW> agenda+ PICK SCRIBE
15:56:58 <ChrisW> agenda+ AOB
15:57:11 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:57:11 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:58:49 <josb> josb has joined #rif
15:59:41 <csma> csma has joined #rif
16:00:34 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
16:00:41 <Zakim> +[IBM]
16:00:42 <ChrisW> zakim, sing me a song
16:00:42 <Zakim> I don't understand 'sing me a song', ChrisW
16:00:49 <ChrisW> zakim, ibm is temporarily me
16:00:49 <Zakim> +ChrisW; got it
16:01:02 <Zakim> +??P30
16:01:03 <LeoraMorgenstern> LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
16:01:07 <Zakim> -ChrisW
16:01:09 <Zakim> +ChrisW
16:01:17 <Zakim> +Harold
16:01:24 <csma> zakim, ??P30 is me
16:01:24 <Zakim> +csma; got it
16:01:42 <Zakim> + +1.212.781.aaaa
16:01:51 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim. aaaa is me
16:02:00 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, aaaa is me
16:02:00 <Zakim> +LeoraMorgenstern; got it
16:02:35 <LeoraMorgenstern> okay, so I'll keep it muted as I scribe.
16:02:40 <Zakim> +josb
16:02:43 <csma> Thanx
16:02:46 <Zakim> +Sandro
16:02:46 <LeoraMorgenstern> If I need to ask a question, I'll unmute just for that moment.
16:03:28 <Hassan> Hassan has joined #rif
16:03:48 <StellaMitchell> StellaMitchell has joined #rif
16:03:50 <Zakim> +Hassan_Ait-Kaci
16:04:19 <csma> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:04:20 <Zakim> On the phone I see ChrisW, csma, Harold, LeoraMorgenstern, josb, Sandro, Hassan_Ait-Kaci
16:04:29 <Zakim> +[IBM]
16:04:36 <StellaMitchell> zakim, ibm is temporarily me
16:04:36 <Zakim> +StellaMitchell; got it
16:04:48 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has joined #rif
16:05:01 <csma> next item
16:05:10 <csma> item 1
16:05:12 <Zakim> +??P11
16:05:17 <sandro> zakim, take up agendum 1
16:05:17 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:05:29 <csma> PROPOSED: accept minutes of telecon November 11
16:05:37 <sandro> scribenick: LeoraMorgenstern 
16:05:41 <csma> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Nov/att-0042/2008-11-11-rif-minutes.html
16:05:52 <trackbot> trackbot has joined #rif
16:06:31 <csma> RESOLVED: accept minutes of telecon November 11
16:06:43 <Gary_Hallmark> Gary_Hallmark has joined #rif
16:06:49 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: any agenda amendments?
16:07:09 <LeoraMorgenstern> Harold: Dave Reynolds and I would like to bring in two topics from Core discussion yesterday to agenda.
16:07:38 <Zakim> +Gary
16:07:46 <LeoraMorgenstern> Harold: with respect to pattern matching vs. unification and also of # and ##
16:08:02 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has joined #rif
16:08:04 <sandro> action-1?
16:08:05 <trackbot> ACTION-1 -- Leora Morgenstern to set up draft proposal on what we mean by FOL -- due 2006-04-30 -- CLOSED
16:08:05 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/actions/1
16:08:14 <sandro> (just testing trackbot)
16:08:17 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: Discussing these would take more than 5 minutes. More urgent than DTB and UCR? 
16:08:19 <Zakim> +??P45
16:08:34 <LeoraMorgenstern> chris: Probably not, so will only discuss if there is time.
16:08:36 <LeoraMorgenstern> Harold: okay
16:08:50 <csma> zakim, take up item 2
16:08:50 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:09:05 <LeoraMorgenstern> Any news, comments from liaisons?
16:09:23 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: was RDF text published?
16:09:31 <Zakim> +??P54
16:09:46 <LeoraMorgenstern> sandro: no, due to publishing snafu; still debating, also, whether to send it out no, or later.
16:10:00 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma? anything new wrt XBRL (check the acronym)?
16:10:30 <LeoraMorgenstern> s/csma:/csma?
16:10:42 <csma> q?
16:10:49 <csma> next item
16:10:52 <LeoraMorgenstern> sandro: <get answer wrt XBRL>
16:11:56 <LeoraMorgenstern> chris: I have to deal with 2 public comments; Christian is supposed to deal with RAK1.
16:12:24 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: I will address this once I have gone through the paper; will ask Gary for support.
16:12:47 <LeoraMorgenstern> Harold: text in BLD has changed somewhat. 
16:12:57 <LeoraMorgenstern> chris: I'm the one who is supposed to draft the response.
16:13:11 <csma> next item
16:13:13 <LeoraMorgenstern> next item
16:14:04 <LeoraMorgenstern> Action 655 on Dave to update EBNF to match BLD is done.
16:14:04 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 655
16:15:01 <LeoraMorgenstern> 654: done
16:15:33 <LeoraMorgenstern> action 653 to open issue on polyadic functions per note in DTB 3.5 is continued
16:15:33 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 653
16:16:11 <LeoraMorgenstern> 652 to write some more pathological test cases for potentially confusing uses of iri-string predicate --- continued
16:16:11 <Harold> Axel, Yes, we should have multi-arity built-ins (e.g. max and min).
16:16:17 <LeoraMorgenstern> 651: done
16:16:27 <LeoraMorgenstern> 650: continued (see above)
16:18:09 <LeoraMorgenstern> 648 & 647  on Axel ( to add editor's note on xml schema compatibility, and add editor's note regarding status of finite/infinite characters) turned out to be the same action, and is/are done.
16:18:59 <LeoraMorgenstern> 646 on Gary to draft a response to RAK: continued
16:19:11 <LeoraMorgenstern> 645: Chris to send WL response is continued
16:19:20 <LeoraMorgenstern> 644: Draft comment to ok: continued.
16:19:26 <LeoraMorgenstern> 643: done
16:19:32 <AxelPolleres> harold, a) we have no resolution on this, b) this also aplies to e.g. fn:concat, not to new, not yet agreed built-ins
16:19:45 <AxelPolleres> do we have a resolution on min/max ?
16:20:07 <LeoraMorgenstern> 637 on sandro to generate test case manifests: basically done, although Stella and Sandro still have to work out some details.
16:20:30 <LeoraMorgenstern> 633 on Chris to discuss to how specify prefixes on email: continued, needs to be moved to PS task force.
16:20:54 <LeoraMorgenstern> 604 on Axel: continued for now.
16:20:59 <LeoraMorgenstern> 592: continued
16:21:42 <LeoraMorgenstern> 588 on Leora: continued; part of bigger effort to collect UCR cases that can't be represented currently in RIF.
16:22:14 <LeoraMorgenstern> 573, 579 on sandro: continued
16:22:32 <LeoraMorgenstern> 565 on sandro (access for Adrian to CVS) is done.
16:22:56 <LeoraMorgenstern> 564 on Hassan: needs to be moved to PS task force, continued
16:23:08 <Michael_Kifer> Michael_Kifer has joined #rif
16:23:22 <LeoraMorgenstern> 439, 152 continued.
16:23:31 <LeoraMorgenstern> Pending reviews:
16:24:09 <LeoraMorgenstern> postponed to agenda discussion
16:24:12 <LeoraMorgenstern> next item
16:24:24 <LeoraMorgenstern> Task force updates.
16:25:08 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: PRD task force: we are still discussing our next working draft; discusson will probably be concluded later today.
16:25:22 <Zakim> +Michael_Kifer
16:27:34 <LeoraMorgenstern> chris: PS task force: We met on Friday. We split issues into 2 categoreis: (1) making the syntax more presentable (2) making the syntax less ambiguous.  We came up with a set of changes that should reduce the ambiguities. Everyone including Hassan was content. Hassan is working through some implementational issues before changes can be tested.
16:28:05 <LeoraMorgenstern> chris: still a lot of disagreement about what's presentable. Hard to judge presentability, especially with a group so used to doing things in particular ways.
16:28:18 <LeoraMorgenstern> chris: easier to reduce ambiguity, because there are clear technical requirements.
16:28:23 <StellaMitchell> I will send to whole group
16:28:51 <ChrisW> done
16:28:56 <StellaMitchell> ok
16:28:57 <csma> q?
16:29:41 <LeoraMorgenstern> harold: perhaps we should look at OWL working group since many in RIF group will want to use RIF rules with OWL ontology.
16:30:01 <Hassan> +1 on Harold's suggestion to get inspired on OWL's abstract syntax
16:30:12 <Harold> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Nov/0103.html
16:30:20 <LeoraMorgenstern> Harold: Core task force. Minutes linked above.
16:31:08 <LeoraMorgenstern> Harold: Discussed member and subclass. Consensus: have # in rule bodies.
16:31:36 <LeoraMorgenstern> Harold: More constructs on Core defined by referring to BLD. Process not finished, but should be done by Monday.
16:31:55 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: Does this mean implementing Core will require reading and understanding BLD?
16:32:33 <LeoraMorgenstern> harold: yes, and PRD too.
16:33:02 <DaveReynolds> q+
16:33:31 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: Doesn't that make things more difficult for people who just want to implement Core?
16:33:32 <csma> ack Dave
16:34:13 <LeoraMorgenstern> harold: yes, but necessary to facilitate maintenance.
16:34:53 <LeoraMorgenstern> dave: yes, otherwise there would be tremendous amounts of duplication.
16:35:27 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: why not explicitly specify in Core, and have BLD and PRD make reference to it?
16:35:39 <LeoraMorgenstern> harold: Because BLD is further advanced, and last call, why Core is not yet stable.
16:35:48 <Harold> PRD colleagues, could you pleas briefly bring up if  http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Core#Intersection_of_RIF-PRD_and_RIF-BLD  is fine for the FPWD of Core?
16:36:04 <LeoraMorgenstern> harold: and Core is less than the intersection of PRD and BLD.
16:36:48 <LeoraMorgenstern> harold: easier to extend BLD and PRD to Core.
16:36:58 <LeoraMorgenstern> next item
16:37:10 <Harold> Yes, less than intersection.
16:37:33 <csma> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Nov/0041.html
16:37:46 <LeoraMorgenstern> adrian: I added two new requirements to UCR
16:38:27 <LeoraMorgenstern> adrian: First: inter-dialect and intra-dialect interoperability
16:39:21 <LeoraMorgenstern> adrian: this had never been explicitly stated
16:39:21 <csma> RIF must allow intra-dialect interoperation, i.e. interoperability between
16:39:22 <csma> semantically similar rule languages (via interchange of RIF rules) within
16:39:22 <csma> one dialect, and it should support inter-dialect interoperation, i.e.
16:39:22 <csma> interoperation between different dialects with maximum overlap.
16:40:20 <DaveReynolds> q+
16:40:24 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: discussion? Any objections to this requirement?
16:40:27 <csma> ack dave
16:41:04 <LeoraMorgenstern> Dave: Just some comments on how this got lost: We had this requirements structure, and interoperatibility wa one of the high-level goals.
16:41:22 <LeoraMorgenstern> Dave: (i.e., high-level goal rather than requirement)
16:41:31 <DaveReynolds> q-
16:43:21 <sandro> q+ to ask about interop req
16:43:26 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: So perhaps interoperabilty should be moved to a high-level requirement. Structure things so that there's no overlap.
16:43:35 <csma> RIF must support internationalized text - that is, text that additionally
16:43:36 <csma> conveys information in terms of a language tag.
16:43:56 <LeoraMorgenstern> adrian: Second requirement: internationalized text (see above).
16:43:58 <sandro> q-
16:44:42 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: any discussion or objection to internationalized text requirement?
16:45:25 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: we'll have a resolution next week about this.
16:46:10 <LeoraMorgenstern> sandro: Is interoperability just restricted to common substrates of the dialects?
16:46:41 <StellaMitchell> "maximum overlap" had been my comment
16:48:49 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: summary: resolution next week regarding internationalized text; while interoperatibility still under discussion
16:48:51 <LeoraMorgenstern> next item
16:49:50 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: according to plan UCR. Core, Test, PRD,  due to be frozen today. (missing something. Get)
16:50:05 <LeoraMorgenstern> Note to self: add DTB to above list.
16:50:34 <LeoraMorgenstern> chris: UCR has been reviewed
16:50:35 <LeoraMorgenstern> q+
16:51:04 <LeoraMorgenstern> adrian: some open examples and work needs to be done on the examples
16:51:16 <csma> ack LeoraM
16:52:31 <LeoraMorgenstern> adrian: but otherwise ready for next publication
16:53:02 <LeoraMorgenstern> harold: There will be some changes before we can freeze it. Our target for freezable core is Monday, Nov. 24
16:53:34 <Michael_Kifer> next Mon should be ok
16:53:43 <LeoraMorgenstern> harold: gary, michael, and dave may need more time
16:53:45 <Harold> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Core
16:53:55 <ChrisW> zakim, who is here
16:53:55 <Zakim> ChrisW, you need to end that query with '?'
16:53:58 <Michael_Kifer> next Mon should be ok
16:53:59 <ChrisW> zakim, who is here?
16:53:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see ChrisW, csma, Harold, LeoraMorgenstern, josb, Sandro, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), StellaMitchell, DaveReynolds, Gary, ??P45, AxelPolleres, Michael_Kifer
16:54:02 <Zakim> On IRC I see Michael_Kifer, AxelPolleres, Gary, trackbot, DaveReynolds, StellaMitchell, Hassan, LeoraMorgenstern, csma, josb, Harold, RRSAgent, Zakim, ChrisW, sandro
16:54:07 <LeoraMorgenstern> I can review core
16:54:18 <DaveReynolds> The EBNF updates are done modulo decisions on #/## and external functions
16:54:19 <ChrisW> zakim, ??p45 is AdrianP
16:54:19 <Zakim> +AdrianP; got it
16:54:46 <ChrisW> action: csma to review Core by two weeks
16:54:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-656 - Review Core by two weeks [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2008-11-25].
16:55:17 <ChrisW> action: leora to review core by two weeks
16:55:17 <trackbot> Created ACTION-657 - Review core by two weeks [on Leora Morgenstern - due 2008-11-25].
16:56:59 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: PRD: we still have the question of #  ##, but not holding up PRD since i's a working draft.
16:57:10 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: xml, external data models, also not  in this draft.
16:57:47 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: should be able to have this WD done by Friday.
16:57:57 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: so we'll freeze by Friday.
16:58:51 <ChrisW> hassan, would you have time to review PRD?
16:59:17 <ChrisW> action: mkifer to review Core in two weeks
16:59:17 <trackbot> Created ACTION-658 - Review Core in two weeks [on Michael Kifer - due 2008-11-25].
17:00:13 <ChrisW> action: hassan to review PRD - due in two weeks
17:00:13 <trackbot> Created ACTION-659 - review PRD [on Hassan Ait-Kaci - due 2008-11-18].
17:00:33 <Hassan> 3^D
17:00:42 <sandro> action-659 due 2008-12-03
17:00:43 <trackbot> ACTION-659 review PRD due date now 2008-12-03
17:01:14 <LeoraMorgenstern> stella: Test is ready to freeze. Still needs more work, especially wrt format, but Sandro feels it's okay for a first pass.
17:02:11 <ChrisW> action: sandro to review test - due Dec 02
17:02:11 <trackbot> Created ACTION-660 - review test [on Sandro Hawke - due 2008-12-02].
17:02:51 <ChrisW> action: gary to review test - due Dec 02
17:02:51 <trackbot> Created ACTION-661 - review test [on Gary Hallmark - due 2008-12-02].
17:02:57 <LeoraMorgenstern> Stella, Adrian, should there perhaps be a pointer inthe Test doc to the spreadsheet that I prepared regarding the test caes?
17:03:42 <LeoraMorgenstern> jos: DTB: Edtiing editor's note still needs to be done. Action 604 needs to be done. 
17:04:01 <AxelPolleres> s/jos/axel/
17:04:01 <LeoraMorgenstern> note to self: that was Axel, not jos.
17:04:57 <LeoraMorgenstern> chris: DTB has been reviewed.
17:05:13 <LeoraMorgenstern> axel: making changes in response to reviews. Should be done by the end of the week.
17:06:03 <josb> q+
17:06:25 <csma> ack josb
17:06:28 <LeoraMorgenstern> axel: everything not done is marked with editor's notes. I will leave editor's notes, but may still make some changes to improve situaiton.
17:06:51 <LeoraMorgenstern> jos: Not all my comments resulted in editor's note, e.g., mapping  , data type conversions.
17:07:51 <LeoraMorgenstern> axel: I will add editor's notes as needed.
17:08:45 <LeoraMorgenstern> next item
17:08:54 <csma> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/67
17:09:00 <LeoraMorgenstern> This has already been done in above discussion.
17:09:02 <LeoraMorgenstern> next item
17:09:08 <LeoraMorgenstern> well, it needs to be closed now.
17:09:14 <LeoraMorgenstern> next item
17:09:23 <LeoraMorgenstern> close agendum 8
17:10:15 <LeoraMorgenstern> Next  topic to discuss: Issue 67
17:11:45 <LeoraMorgenstern> Issue 67: inconsistency in hte way numeric-less-than operator is used.
17:12:10 <csma> q?
17:12:57 <LeoraMorgenstern> josb: not natural to compare strings in the same way as numbers: numbers have a natural ordering
17:13:34 <Harold> Strings have lexicographic ordering.
17:13:38 <AxelPolleres> s/Alex/Axel/
17:14:14 <LeoraMorgenstern> Gary: What's more important for strings is equal and non-equal,  rather than ordering.
17:14:31 <AxelPolleres> from fn:compare (xpath-functions):  This function, invoked with the first signature, backs up the "eq", "ne", "gt", "lt", "le" and "ge" operators on string values.
17:16:22 <LeoraMorgenstern> chris: Also, issues 79, 80, 81.
17:16:33 <LeoraMorgenstern> Note: fix above, that is csma, not chris.
17:18:45 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: propose to have equal and non-equal for all those types (strings, etc.) and to leave the greater than and less than issues for now.
17:19:32 <LeoraMorgenstern> Axel: I'd prefer to mark this with an editor's note, rather than remove the gt, lt, le, ge orderings in those cases.
17:19:43 <ChrisW> s/chris:/csma:/
17:20:09 <LeoraMorgenstern> axel: issue 67, and thus the editor's note, was only on strings. 
17:20:57 <csma> csma has joined #rif
17:21:13 <DaveReynolds> Sorry I have to leave slightly early: no objection to =/!= on strings; regarding issue 80 I don't think this is yet closable
17:21:44 <Zakim> -DaveReynolds
17:22:09 <AxelPolleres> I see no point in closing "half" of the issue...
17:22:14 <AxelPolleres> ... to be honest.
17:22:39 <csma> PROPOSED: Add equal and not-equal builtins for string
17:23:33 <LeoraMorgenstern> Axel: why is equal and not-equal less contentious than gt and lt?
17:24:47 <Harold> I think for DTB, which is a kind of taxonomy of mostly independent features (built-ins) we should keep reasonable built-ins, so DTB has a chance to become the ground layer of built-ins for the (Semantic) Web.
17:25:31 <josb> no, as it stands DTB is a part of BLD
17:26:16 <AxelPolleres> As i typed earlier, fn:compare in Xquery/Xpath backs up eq, ne, gt, and lt... so if we only want to have half of those... fine.
17:26:30 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath-functions/#func-compare
17:27:51 <ChrisW> action: csma to put string= proposed resolution on next week's agenda
17:27:52 <trackbot> Created ACTION-662 - Put string= proposed resolution on next week's agenda [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2008-11-25].
17:28:01 <Hassan> +1 to adjourn
17:28:15 <LeoraMorgenstern> next item
17:28:23 <Zakim> -josb
17:28:25 <LeoraMorgenstern> Adrian is scribe for next week
17:28:29 <Zakim> -Harold
17:28:31 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres
17:28:31 <Zakim> -StellaMitchell
17:28:31 <Zakim> -Hassan_Ait-Kaci
17:28:32 <Zakim> -Michael_Kifer
17:28:36 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make logs public
17:28:38 <LeoraMorgenstern> next item
17:28:40 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
17:28:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/18-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
17:28:43 <Zakim> -Gary
17:29:02 <Zakim> -AdrianP
17:29:27 <ChrisW> Regrets: PaulVincent
17:29:31 <ChrisW> zakim, list attendees
17:29:31 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been ChrisW, Harold, csma, +1.212.781.aaaa, LeoraMorgenstern, josb, Sandro, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, StellaMitchell, DaveReynolds, Gary, AxelPolleres,
17:29:35 <Zakim> ... Michael_Kifer, AdrianP
17:29:39 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
17:29:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/18-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
17:31:20 <ChrisW> action: chris to consider issue on representing test cases in BLD (not expressive for a lot of cases)
17:31:36 <ChrisW> trackbot?
17:32:23 <Zakim> -LeoraMorgenstern
17:33:02 <trackbot> Created ACTION-663 - Consider issue on representing test cases in BLD (not expressive for a lot of cases) [on Christopher Welty - due 2008-11-25].
17:34:46 <Zakim> -Sandro
17:34:47 <Zakim> -ChrisW
17:34:48 <Zakim> -csma
17:34:49 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
17:34:50 <Zakim> Attendees were ChrisW, Harold, csma, +1.212.781.aaaa, LeoraMorgenstern, josb, Sandro, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, StellaMitchell, DaveReynolds, Gary, AxelPolleres, Michael_Kifer, AdrianP