IRC log of rif on 2008-11-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:52:11 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rif
15:52:11 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:52:20 [ChrisW]
zakim, this will be rif
15:52:20 [Zakim]
ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
15:52:46 [ChrisW]
Meeting: RIF Telecon 18-Nov-08
15:52:46 [ChrisW]
Chair: Christian de Sainte-Marie
15:55:27 [ChrisW]
ChrisW has changed the topic to: 18 Nov RIF Telecon Agenda
15:55:30 [ChrisW]
15:55:58 [Harold]
Harold has joined #rif
15:56:03 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Admin
15:56:08 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Liason
15:56:17 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Public comments
15:56:24 [ChrisW]
agenda+ action review
15:56:31 [ChrisW]
agenda+ TF updates
15:56:35 [ChrisW]
agenda+ UCR
15:56:40 [ChrisW]
agenda+ publication plan
15:56:44 [ChrisW]
agenda+ DTB
15:56:53 [ChrisW]
15:56:58 [ChrisW]
agenda+ AOB
15:57:11 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:57:11 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:58:49 [josb]
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15:59:41 [csma]
csma has joined #rif
16:00:34 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
16:00:41 [Zakim]
16:00:42 [ChrisW]
zakim, sing me a song
16:00:42 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'sing me a song', ChrisW
16:00:49 [ChrisW]
zakim, ibm is temporarily me
16:00:49 [Zakim]
+ChrisW; got it
16:01:02 [Zakim]
16:01:03 [LeoraMorgenstern]
LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
16:01:07 [Zakim]
16:01:09 [Zakim]
16:01:17 [Zakim]
16:01:24 [csma]
zakim, ??P30 is me
16:01:24 [Zakim]
+csma; got it
16:01:42 [Zakim]
+ +1.212.781.aaaa
16:01:51 [LeoraMorgenstern]
zakim. aaaa is me
16:02:00 [LeoraMorgenstern]
zakim, aaaa is me
16:02:00 [Zakim]
+LeoraMorgenstern; got it
16:02:35 [LeoraMorgenstern]
okay, so I'll keep it muted as I scribe.
16:02:40 [Zakim]
16:02:43 [csma]
16:02:46 [Zakim]
16:02:46 [LeoraMorgenstern]
If I need to ask a question, I'll unmute just for that moment.
16:03:28 [Hassan]
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16:03:48 [StellaMitchell]
StellaMitchell has joined #rif
16:03:50 [Zakim]
16:04:19 [csma]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:04:20 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ChrisW, csma, Harold, LeoraMorgenstern, josb, Sandro, Hassan_Ait-Kaci
16:04:29 [Zakim]
16:04:36 [StellaMitchell]
zakim, ibm is temporarily me
16:04:36 [Zakim]
+StellaMitchell; got it
16:04:48 [DaveReynolds]
DaveReynolds has joined #rif
16:05:01 [csma]
next item
16:05:10 [csma]
item 1
16:05:12 [Zakim]
16:05:17 [sandro]
zakim, take up agendum 1
16:05:17 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:05:37 [sandro]
scribenick: LeoraMorgenstern
16:05:41 [csma]
16:05:52 [trackbot]
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16:06:31 [csma]
RESOLVED: accept minutes of telecon November 11
16:06:43 [Gary_Hallmark]
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16:06:49 [LeoraMorgenstern]
csma: any agenda amendments?
16:07:09 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Harold: Dave Reynolds and I would like to bring in two topics from Core discussion yesterday to agenda.
16:07:38 [Zakim]
16:07:46 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Harold: with respect to pattern matching vs. unification and also of # and ##
16:08:02 [AxelPolleres]
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16:08:04 [sandro]
16:08:05 [trackbot]
ACTION-1 -- Leora Morgenstern to set up draft proposal on what we mean by FOL -- due 2006-04-30 -- CLOSED
16:08:05 [trackbot]
16:08:14 [sandro]
(just testing trackbot)
16:08:17 [LeoraMorgenstern]
csma: Discussing these would take more than 5 minutes. More urgent than DTB and UCR?
16:08:19 [Zakim]
16:08:34 [LeoraMorgenstern]
chris: Probably not, so will only discuss if there is time.
16:08:36 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Harold: okay
16:08:50 [csma]
zakim, take up item 2
16:08:50 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:09:05 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Any news, comments from liaisons?
16:09:23 [LeoraMorgenstern]
csma: was RDF text published?
16:09:31 [Zakim]
16:09:46 [LeoraMorgenstern]
sandro: no, due to publishing snafu; still debating, also, whether to send it out no, or later.
16:10:00 [LeoraMorgenstern]
csma? anything new wrt XBRL (check the acronym)?
16:10:30 [LeoraMorgenstern]
16:10:42 [csma]
16:10:49 [csma]
next item
16:10:52 [LeoraMorgenstern]
sandro: <get answer wrt XBRL>
16:11:56 [LeoraMorgenstern]
chris: I have to deal with 2 public comments; Christian is supposed to deal with RAK1.
16:12:24 [LeoraMorgenstern]
csma: I will address this once I have gone through the paper; will ask Gary for support.
16:12:47 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Harold: text in BLD has changed somewhat.
16:12:57 [LeoraMorgenstern]
chris: I'm the one who is supposed to draft the response.
16:13:11 [csma]
next item
16:13:13 [LeoraMorgenstern]
next item
16:14:04 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Action 655 on Dave to update EBNF to match BLD is done.
16:14:04 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - 655
16:15:01 [LeoraMorgenstern]
654: done
16:15:33 [LeoraMorgenstern]
action 653 to open issue on polyadic functions per note in DTB 3.5 is continued
16:15:33 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - 653
16:16:11 [LeoraMorgenstern]
652 to write some more pathological test cases for potentially confusing uses of iri-string predicate --- continued
16:16:11 [Harold]
Axel, Yes, we should have multi-arity built-ins (e.g. max and min).
16:16:17 [LeoraMorgenstern]
651: done
16:16:27 [LeoraMorgenstern]
650: continued (see above)
16:18:09 [LeoraMorgenstern]
648 & 647 on Axel ( to add editor's note on xml schema compatibility, and add editor's note regarding status of finite/infinite characters) turned out to be the same action, and is/are done.
16:18:59 [LeoraMorgenstern]
646 on Gary to draft a response to RAK: continued
16:19:11 [LeoraMorgenstern]
645: Chris to send WL response is continued
16:19:20 [LeoraMorgenstern]
644: Draft comment to ok: continued.
16:19:26 [LeoraMorgenstern]
643: done
16:19:32 [AxelPolleres]
harold, a) we have no resolution on this, b) this also aplies to e.g. fn:concat, not to new, not yet agreed built-ins
16:19:45 [AxelPolleres]
do we have a resolution on min/max ?
16:20:07 [LeoraMorgenstern]
637 on sandro to generate test case manifests: basically done, although Stella and Sandro still have to work out some details.
16:20:30 [LeoraMorgenstern]
633 on Chris to discuss to how specify prefixes on email: continued, needs to be moved to PS task force.
16:20:54 [LeoraMorgenstern]
604 on Axel: continued for now.
16:20:59 [LeoraMorgenstern]
592: continued
16:21:42 [LeoraMorgenstern]
588 on Leora: continued; part of bigger effort to collect UCR cases that can't be represented currently in RIF.
16:22:14 [LeoraMorgenstern]
573, 579 on sandro: continued
16:22:32 [LeoraMorgenstern]
565 on sandro (access for Adrian to CVS) is done.
16:22:56 [LeoraMorgenstern]
564 on Hassan: needs to be moved to PS task force, continued
16:23:08 [Michael_Kifer]
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16:23:22 [LeoraMorgenstern]
439, 152 continued.
16:23:31 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Pending reviews:
16:24:09 [LeoraMorgenstern]
postponed to agenda discussion
16:24:12 [LeoraMorgenstern]
next item
16:24:24 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Task force updates.
16:25:08 [LeoraMorgenstern]
csma: PRD task force: we are still discussing our next working draft; discusson will probably be concluded later today.
16:25:22 [Zakim]
16:27:34 [LeoraMorgenstern]
chris: PS task force: We met on Friday. We split issues into 2 categoreis: (1) making the syntax more presentable (2) making the syntax less ambiguous. We came up with a set of changes that should reduce the ambiguities. Everyone including Hassan was content. Hassan is working through some implementational issues before changes can be tested.
16:28:05 [LeoraMorgenstern]
chris: still a lot of disagreement about what's presentable. Hard to judge presentability, especially with a group so used to doing things in particular ways.
16:28:18 [LeoraMorgenstern]
chris: easier to reduce ambiguity, because there are clear technical requirements.
16:28:23 [StellaMitchell]
I will send to whole group
16:28:51 [ChrisW]
16:28:56 [StellaMitchell]
16:28:57 [csma]
16:29:41 [LeoraMorgenstern]
harold: perhaps we should look at OWL working group since many in RIF group will want to use RIF rules with OWL ontology.
16:30:01 [Hassan]
+1 on Harold's suggestion to get inspired on OWL's abstract syntax
16:30:12 [Harold]
16:30:20 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Harold: Core task force. Minutes linked above.
16:31:08 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Harold: Discussed member and subclass. Consensus: have # in rule bodies.
16:31:36 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Harold: More constructs on Core defined by referring to BLD. Process not finished, but should be done by Monday.
16:31:55 [LeoraMorgenstern]
csma: Does this mean implementing Core will require reading and understanding BLD?
16:32:33 [LeoraMorgenstern]
harold: yes, and PRD too.
16:33:02 [DaveReynolds]
16:33:31 [LeoraMorgenstern]
csma: Doesn't that make things more difficult for people who just want to implement Core?
16:33:32 [csma]
ack Dave
16:34:13 [LeoraMorgenstern]
harold: yes, but necessary to facilitate maintenance.
16:34:53 [LeoraMorgenstern]
dave: yes, otherwise there would be tremendous amounts of duplication.
16:35:27 [LeoraMorgenstern]
csma: why not explicitly specify in Core, and have BLD and PRD make reference to it?
16:35:39 [LeoraMorgenstern]
harold: Because BLD is further advanced, and last call, why Core is not yet stable.
16:35:48 [Harold]
PRD colleagues, could you pleas briefly bring up if is fine for the FPWD of Core?
16:36:04 [LeoraMorgenstern]
harold: and Core is less than the intersection of PRD and BLD.
16:36:48 [LeoraMorgenstern]
harold: easier to extend BLD and PRD to Core.
16:36:58 [LeoraMorgenstern]
next item
16:37:10 [Harold]
Yes, less than intersection.
16:37:33 [csma]
16:37:46 [LeoraMorgenstern]
adrian: I added two new requirements to UCR
16:38:27 [LeoraMorgenstern]
adrian: First: inter-dialect and intra-dialect interoperability
16:39:21 [LeoraMorgenstern]
adrian: this had never been explicitly stated
16:39:21 [csma]
RIF must allow intra-dialect interoperation, i.e. interoperability between
16:39:22 [csma]
semantically similar rule languages (via interchange of RIF rules) within
16:39:22 [csma]
one dialect, and it should support inter-dialect interoperation, i.e.
16:39:22 [csma]
interoperation between different dialects with maximum overlap.
16:40:20 [DaveReynolds]
16:40:24 [LeoraMorgenstern]
csma: discussion? Any objections to this requirement?
16:40:27 [csma]
ack dave
16:41:04 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Dave: Just some comments on how this got lost: We had this requirements structure, and interoperatibility wa one of the high-level goals.
16:41:22 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Dave: (i.e., high-level goal rather than requirement)
16:41:31 [DaveReynolds]
16:43:21 [sandro]
q+ to ask about interop req
16:43:26 [LeoraMorgenstern]
csma: So perhaps interoperabilty should be moved to a high-level requirement. Structure things so that there's no overlap.
16:43:35 [csma]
RIF must support internationalized text - that is, text that additionally
16:43:36 [csma]
conveys information in terms of a language tag.
16:43:56 [LeoraMorgenstern]
adrian: Second requirement: internationalized text (see above).
16:43:58 [sandro]
16:44:42 [LeoraMorgenstern]
csma: any discussion or objection to internationalized text requirement?
16:45:25 [LeoraMorgenstern]
csma: we'll have a resolution next week about this.
16:46:10 [LeoraMorgenstern]
sandro: Is interoperability just restricted to common substrates of the dialects?
16:46:41 [StellaMitchell]
"maximum overlap" had been my comment
16:48:49 [LeoraMorgenstern]
csma: summary: resolution next week regarding internationalized text; while interoperatibility still under discussion
16:48:51 [LeoraMorgenstern]
next item
16:49:50 [LeoraMorgenstern]
csma: according to plan UCR. Core, Test, PRD, due to be frozen today. (missing something. Get)
16:50:05 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Note to self: add DTB to above list.
16:50:34 [LeoraMorgenstern]
chris: UCR has been reviewed
16:50:35 [LeoraMorgenstern]
16:51:04 [LeoraMorgenstern]
adrian: some open examples and work needs to be done on the examples
16:51:16 [csma]
ack LeoraM
16:52:31 [LeoraMorgenstern]
adrian: but otherwise ready for next publication
16:53:02 [LeoraMorgenstern]
harold: There will be some changes before we can freeze it. Our target for freezable core is Monday, Nov. 24
16:53:34 [Michael_Kifer]
next Mon should be ok
16:53:43 [LeoraMorgenstern]
harold: gary, michael, and dave may need more time
16:53:45 [Harold]
16:53:55 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is here
16:53:55 [Zakim]
ChrisW, you need to end that query with '?'
16:53:58 [Michael_Kifer]
next Mon should be ok
16:53:59 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is here?
16:53:59 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ChrisW, csma, Harold, LeoraMorgenstern, josb, Sandro, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), StellaMitchell, DaveReynolds, Gary, ??P45, AxelPolleres, Michael_Kifer
16:54:02 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Michael_Kifer, AxelPolleres, Gary, trackbot, DaveReynolds, StellaMitchell, Hassan, LeoraMorgenstern, csma, josb, Harold, RRSAgent, Zakim, ChrisW, sandro
16:54:07 [LeoraMorgenstern]
I can review core
16:54:18 [DaveReynolds]
The EBNF updates are done modulo decisions on #/## and external functions
16:54:19 [ChrisW]
zakim, ??p45 is AdrianP
16:54:19 [Zakim]
+AdrianP; got it
16:54:46 [ChrisW]
action: csma to review Core by two weeks
16:54:46 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-656 - Review Core by two weeks [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2008-11-25].
16:55:17 [ChrisW]
action: leora to review core by two weeks
16:55:17 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-657 - Review core by two weeks [on Leora Morgenstern - due 2008-11-25].
16:56:59 [LeoraMorgenstern]
csma: PRD: we still have the question of # ##, but not holding up PRD since i's a working draft.
16:57:10 [LeoraMorgenstern]
csma: xml, external data models, also not in this draft.
16:57:47 [LeoraMorgenstern]
csma: should be able to have this WD done by Friday.
16:57:57 [LeoraMorgenstern]
csma: so we'll freeze by Friday.
16:58:51 [ChrisW]
hassan, would you have time to review PRD?
16:59:17 [ChrisW]
action: mkifer to review Core in two weeks
16:59:17 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-658 - Review Core in two weeks [on Michael Kifer - due 2008-11-25].
17:00:13 [ChrisW]
action: hassan to review PRD - due in two weeks
17:00:13 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-659 - review PRD [on Hassan Ait-Kaci - due 2008-11-18].
17:00:33 [Hassan]
17:00:42 [sandro]
action-659 due 2008-12-03
17:00:43 [trackbot]
ACTION-659 review PRD due date now 2008-12-03
17:01:14 [LeoraMorgenstern]
stella: Test is ready to freeze. Still needs more work, especially wrt format, but Sandro feels it's okay for a first pass.
17:02:11 [ChrisW]
action: sandro to review test - due Dec 02
17:02:11 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-660 - review test [on Sandro Hawke - due 2008-12-02].
17:02:51 [ChrisW]
action: gary to review test - due Dec 02
17:02:51 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-661 - review test [on Gary Hallmark - due 2008-12-02].
17:02:57 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Stella, Adrian, should there perhaps be a pointer inthe Test doc to the spreadsheet that I prepared regarding the test caes?
17:03:42 [LeoraMorgenstern]
jos: DTB: Edtiing editor's note still needs to be done. Action 604 needs to be done.
17:04:01 [AxelPolleres]
17:04:01 [LeoraMorgenstern]
note to self: that was Axel, not jos.
17:04:57 [LeoraMorgenstern]
chris: DTB has been reviewed.
17:05:13 [LeoraMorgenstern]
axel: making changes in response to reviews. Should be done by the end of the week.
17:06:03 [josb]
17:06:25 [csma]
ack josb
17:06:28 [LeoraMorgenstern]
axel: everything not done is marked with editor's notes. I will leave editor's notes, but may still make some changes to improve situaiton.
17:06:51 [LeoraMorgenstern]
jos: Not all my comments resulted in editor's note, e.g., mapping , data type conversions.
17:07:51 [LeoraMorgenstern]
axel: I will add editor's notes as needed.
17:08:45 [LeoraMorgenstern]
next item
17:08:54 [csma]
17:09:00 [LeoraMorgenstern]
This has already been done in above discussion.
17:09:02 [LeoraMorgenstern]
next item
17:09:08 [LeoraMorgenstern]
well, it needs to be closed now.
17:09:14 [LeoraMorgenstern]
next item
17:09:23 [LeoraMorgenstern]
close agendum 8
17:10:15 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Next topic to discuss: Issue 67
17:11:45 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Issue 67: inconsistency in hte way numeric-less-than operator is used.
17:12:10 [csma]
17:12:57 [LeoraMorgenstern]
josb: not natural to compare strings in the same way as numbers: numbers have a natural ordering
17:13:34 [Harold]
Strings have lexicographic ordering.
17:13:38 [AxelPolleres]
17:14:14 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Gary: What's more important for strings is equal and non-equal, rather than ordering.
17:14:31 [AxelPolleres]
from fn:compare (xpath-functions): This function, invoked with the first signature, backs up the "eq", "ne", "gt", "lt", "le" and "ge" operators on string values.
17:16:22 [LeoraMorgenstern]
chris: Also, issues 79, 80, 81.
17:16:33 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Note: fix above, that is csma, not chris.
17:18:45 [LeoraMorgenstern]
csma: propose to have equal and non-equal for all those types (strings, etc.) and to leave the greater than and less than issues for now.
17:19:32 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Axel: I'd prefer to mark this with an editor's note, rather than remove the gt, lt, le, ge orderings in those cases.
17:19:43 [ChrisW]
17:20:09 [LeoraMorgenstern]
axel: issue 67, and thus the editor's note, was only on strings.
17:20:57 [csma]
csma has joined #rif
17:21:13 [DaveReynolds]
Sorry I have to leave slightly early: no objection to =/!= on strings; regarding issue 80 I don't think this is yet closable
17:21:44 [Zakim]
17:22:09 [AxelPolleres]
I see no point in closing "half" of the issue...
17:22:14 [AxelPolleres]
... to be honest.
17:22:39 [csma]
PROPOSED: Add equal and not-equal builtins for string
17:23:33 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Axel: why is equal and not-equal less contentious than gt and lt?
17:24:47 [Harold]
I think for DTB, which is a kind of taxonomy of mostly independent features (built-ins) we should keep reasonable built-ins, so DTB has a chance to become the ground layer of built-ins for the (Semantic) Web.
17:25:31 [josb]
no, as it stands DTB is a part of BLD
17:26:16 [AxelPolleres]
As i typed earlier, fn:compare in Xquery/Xpath backs up eq, ne, gt, and lt... so if we only want to have half of those... fine.
17:26:30 [AxelPolleres]
17:27:51 [ChrisW]
action: csma to put string= proposed resolution on next week's agenda
17:27:52 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-662 - Put string= proposed resolution on next week's agenda [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2008-11-25].
17:28:01 [Hassan]
+1 to adjourn
17:28:15 [LeoraMorgenstern]
next item
17:28:23 [Zakim]
17:28:25 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Adrian is scribe for next week
17:28:29 [Zakim]
17:28:31 [Zakim]
17:28:31 [Zakim]
17:28:31 [Zakim]
17:28:32 [Zakim]
17:28:36 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make logs public
17:28:38 [LeoraMorgenstern]
next item
17:28:40 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:28:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ChrisW
17:28:43 [Zakim]
17:29:02 [Zakim]
17:29:27 [ChrisW]
Regrets: PaulVincent
17:29:31 [ChrisW]
zakim, list attendees
17:29:31 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been ChrisW, Harold, csma, +1.212.781.aaaa, LeoraMorgenstern, josb, Sandro, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, StellaMitchell, DaveReynolds, Gary, AxelPolleres,
17:29:35 [Zakim]
... Michael_Kifer, AdrianP
17:29:39 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:29:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ChrisW
17:31:20 [ChrisW]
action: chris to consider issue on representing test cases in BLD (not expressive for a lot of cases)
17:31:36 [ChrisW]
17:32:23 [Zakim]
17:33:02 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-663 - Consider issue on representing test cases in BLD (not expressive for a lot of cases) [on Christopher Welty - due 2008-11-25].
17:34:46 [Zakim]
17:34:47 [Zakim]
17:34:48 [Zakim]
17:34:49 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
17:34:50 [Zakim]
Attendees were ChrisW, Harold, csma, +1.212.781.aaaa, LeoraMorgenstern, josb, Sandro, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, StellaMitchell, DaveReynolds, Gary, AxelPolleres, Michael_Kifer, AdrianP