15:59:28 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rif
15:59:28 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/11/17-rif-irc
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16:02:32 <Zakim> SW_RIF(CORE)11:00AM has now started
16:02:36 <Zakim> +[IBM]
16:02:39 <ChrisW> zakim, ibm is me
16:02:40 <Zakim> +??P12
16:02:44 <Zakim> -??P12
16:02:46 <Zakim> +??P12
16:02:50 <Zakim> +ChrisW; got it
16:04:38 <Zakim> +??P15
16:05:04 <ChrisW> zakim, ??P15 is AdrianP
16:05:04 <Zakim> +AdrianP; got it
16:05:54 <Zakim> +kifer
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16:08:49 <Zakim> +Gary
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16:09:08 <AxelPolleres> moment... dialing
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16:10:52 <DaveReynolds> topic: discussion re #/##
16:11:08 <DaveReynolds> Gary: needs to be known at translation time the class of every object
16:11:30 <ChrisW> ChrisW has joined #rif
16:11:42 <ChrisW> zakim, who is here?
16:11:42 <Zakim> On the phone I see ChrisW, DaveReynolds, AdrianP, kifer, Gary, AxelPolleres
16:11:44 <Zakim> On IRC I see ChrisW, Gary, AxelPolleres, Michael_Kifer, DaveReynolds, RRSAgent, Zakim, sandro, trackbot
16:12:05 <DaveReynolds> Gary: or allow anywhere but have some compliance exception for PRD
16:14:19 <DaveReynolds> Michael: Patrick wanted to restrict to creation but that can't be done within CORE
16:15:59 <Harold> Harold has joined #rif
16:16:56 <Zakim> +Harold
16:18:45 <DaveReynolds> Dave: could we leave it as currently resolved and cover data models in a future extension?
16:19:31 <DaveReynolds> Gary: but then it makes little sense to have # at all, because we then can't define it. Better to have externally defined.
16:20:45 <DaveReynolds> Chrisw: It means the class memberships are not defined in rules but defined in some out of band object system and # is just a way to test that in rules.
16:20:55 <DaveReynolds> Gary: so should # be wrapped in an External wrapper?
16:23:55 <DaveReynolds> Dave: two clean options (a) unrestricted, (b) drop completely for FPWD
16:24:30 <DaveReynolds> Gary: ree: b but many production systems require membership in patterns and so no PR rule would be a core rule.
16:24:35 <DaveReynolds> s/ree/re/
16:25:24 <DaveReynolds> Gary: would rather leave it in unrestricted.
16:26:22 <DaveReynolds> Gary: to be discussed in PRD telecon
16:26:39 <DaveReynolds> ScribeNick: DaveReynolds
16:29:25 <DaveReynolds> Gary: PRD has special syntax for object creation which is where # can be asserted in PRD.
16:29:45 <DaveReynolds> Chris: so does a # in a fact in Core correspond to an object creation?
16:33:53 <DaveReynolds> Gary: hopes that if allow # in facts in Core then static analysis can capture duplicate assertions and trap attempts to reassign membership at translation time
16:39:21 <DaveReynolds> Gary: is we restrict to facts and conditions is that OK for core?
16:39:35 <DaveReynolds> Michael: yes
16:39:58 <DaveReynolds> Harold: c.f. abox in OWL
16:41:12 <DaveReynolds> Dave: what about subclass, is that needed?
16:41:34 <DaveReynolds> Gary: yes, to represent e.g. complex type hierarchy in XML Schema
16:42:43 <Harold> Using #,facts to define class membership is a good match for Aboxes in OWL DL.
16:43:10 <Harold> s/#,/ #/
16:43:58 <DaveReynolds> Chris: what was the issue csma raised with pattern matching?
16:45:00 <DaveReynolds> Michael: only diff between unification and matching, when no function symbols, there is no difference unless there are variables in facts and safety rules that out
16:46:13 <DaveReynolds> Gary: isn't about external functions in conclusions? Not unification but about the need to rewrite a rule to handle builtins.
16:46:55 <Harold> Gary, do you mean something like unifying +(2,3) with 5?
16:47:15 <Harold> So, not just syntactic unifcication?
16:48:19 <Gary> P(x) :- P(x - 1)  vs. P(x + 1) :- P(x)
16:48:22 <sandro> sandro has joined #rif
16:48:31 <DaveReynolds> Dave: what if restrict builtin fns to just equality?
16:48:47 <AxelPolleres> not sure, whether that was what christian meant.
16:49:24 <AxelPolleres> +1 to discuss that with christian tomorrow again.
16:49:31 <DaveReynolds> Need clarification from Christian on what he meant
16:50:25 <DaveReynolds> Dave: raise in plenary tomorrow?
16:50:58 <Harold> +1 (even in the plenary)
16:51:34 <DaveReynolds> Michael: issues (a) #/##  (b) external functions   (c) shorten compliance section  (d) EBNF needs fixing
16:55:06 <Harold> s/safety /safeness/
16:55:12 <DaveReynolds> Action: dave update EBNF to match BLD
16:55:12 <trackbot> Created ACTION-655 - Update EBNF to match BLD [on Dave Reynolds - due 2008-11-24].
16:56:40 <AxelPolleres> We still have "safety" in some places, don't we?
16:57:33 <Harold> Yes, should be changed.
16:58:05 <Harold> Is it realistic to have a freezable version before next Monday?
16:58:07 <DaveReynolds> Michael: can look at compliance section to see how to reformulate
16:59:18 <DaveReynolds> Possibles topics for plenary: (i) #/## new restrictions (ii) Christian pattern match
17:00:22 <DaveReynolds> Sorry - have to go
17:00:27 <Zakim> -DaveReynolds
17:03:07 <AxelPolleres> shall we adjourn?
17:03:14 <Zakim> -Gary
17:03:36 <AxelPolleres> rrsagent, make minutes
17:03:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/17-rif-minutes.html AxelPolleres
17:04:11 <Harold> PRD colleagues, could you pleas briefly bring up if http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Core#Intersection_of_RIF-PRD_and_RIF-BLD is fine for the FPWD of Core?
17:04:16 <Zakim> -AdrianP
17:04:38 <Michael_Kifer> rrsagent, make public
17:04:38 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make public', Michael_Kifer.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:05:12 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres
17:05:14 <Zakim> -kifer
17:05:36 <Harold> RRSAgent, make logs public
17:05:57 <Harold> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:05:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/17-rif-minutes.html Harold
17:07:12 <Zakim> -ChrisW
17:07:13 <Zakim> -Harold
17:07:13 <Zakim> SW_RIF(CORE)11:00AM has ended
17:07:14 <Zakim> Attendees were ChrisW, DaveReynolds, AdrianP, kifer, Gary, AxelPolleres, Harold
17:07:34 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minites
17:07:34 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minites', ChrisW.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:07:37 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
17:07:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/17-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
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20:01:41 <sandro> hey
20:01:49 <sandro> SWC#Annotation_properties
20:01:59 <sandro> <a href="....">SWC#Annotation_properties</a>